A tough spot ... Nick Niemann is really good ... but, then again, so it Geno Stone. Phil will try to get both on the field as much as he can ... although it may have to boil down the situational play.
DEFENSE Developments in IU game, Who Starts Moving Forward (Riley or Hankins, etc) & INJURY Updates
- Thread starter Franisdaman
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Au contraire, mon frère! Gervase stunk up the field early on, missed many tackles in space in Indiana's 1st quarter. Left his jock on the field. Made up for it later in the game, especially with the INT in the endzone, I grant you. Gervase needs to shore up his open field tackling against Maryland.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. . Doyle, Benson, and McDONALD (at least) will have a say before next Fall. The Ohio kid may even for the upcoming class. Lots of good so far! But, no reason to anoint a "starting 3" just yet.
Also first series he had RB 1 on 1 in open space behind LOS on 1st play after the fumble and never get even close to getting a hand on him. Ran right around him for a 1st down.
Yeah, I remember that. Not good. He still had a good PFF grade, but those two plays cost him big on his 'tackle' grade. Sniffed those plays out big time and put himself in position to make really good plays, but he has to have the confidence in his ability to finish those plays. I still say he is the most consistent because his reads are so good and is never out of position, but he misses a few like everyone else. Thanks for reminding be about that play.
Those 3 hopefully will develop this year, next spring and fall, and provide solid depth to our LB corp, but they will not beat out Welch, Jones, Niemann, Colbert and Wade for the top spots. People always get excited about freshmen, but unless there are injuries and/or attrition, they will not overtake these 5. If Welch, Colbert and Niemann are the starters this year, and they are returning, why wouldn't we anoint them the starting 3, lol. I like our young LB's and think they have a great future, but they will benefit by having the time to get bigger, stronger and learn technique and reads.
I was just correcting a poster who was suggesting that we'd have Welch for 2 more years.
I agree with you ... I love the upside of guys like Doyle, Benson, McDonald, Jacobs, and Campbell. We all thought that guys like Welch or Hockaday were obvious incumbents to snatch starting spots ... but Colbert managed to nab a starting spot regardless!
If a guy puts in the work, demonstrates that he has down the mental side of the game, and can produce ... the guy is gonna play!
The older guys need to continue to demonstrate improvement if they want to continue to hold down the fort. You have to remember that Phil Parker was one of Seth Wallace's primary mentors (as was Norm Parker). Phil is well known for opting for the younger guy ... if the younger guy is doing things properly and with consistency.
I think that we've been seeing that a little bit with Wallace this year ... Wallace doesn't "give up" on the older guys ... but guys clearly have to EARN their opportunities.
Thus, I agree that the younger LBs are most likely set up to initially help our depth .... however, ultimately, if they earn some opportunities ... that can always open the door for them to gain an expanded role on the D!
Suppose that role is playing the dime LB spot. Maybe a guy really excels ... then maybe he then earns the chance to come in on goal-line packages. Alternatively, maybe he even gets a shot to rotate some when we're playing from our base. This year, I've seen more LBs used in a packaged capacity than I've seen in a long time at Iowa. I think that Seth and Phil are trying to do a better job of offering the carrot to motivate guys. So far, the results are very promising!
He didn't 'stink up the field', but yes, he can improve in open field tackling....as can all our DB's. Thank you for your colorful commentary, but try to cut back on your use of hyperbole. It doesn't strengthen your position.
Given that Wadley managed to make a defender like Peppers look slow-footed ... I think that it goes without saying that it can be really difficult for a defender to make an open-field tackle on a high-end athlete on his own. That's why the best situation is to have a whole gang of guys swarm the ball. Team D ... it's what it's all about!
I think your statement of 'opting for the younger guy' is....overstated. We haven't seen that at LB. When young guys have played at LB it's been because he really didn't have much choice because of gaps in recruiting and attrition, and they didn't fare well when they were RSFresh and Sophs. And what older guy did King beat out? He didn't beat out a returning starter. Who did Rugamba beat out? We were down 3 DB's when he saw the field. The young DB's who have got to play is because the cupboard was bare for the most part. Jackson had to wait his turn behind two returning starters, didn't he, even though he was an All-American. You are usually a reasonable poster, but you have a little bit of revisionist history going on this one. Name me one or two times that a freshman or rsfreshman has beat out a returning starter on defense. Hell, Epenesa STILL hasn't beat out Hesse.
Ok, maybe "stunk up the field" is overstating slightly. But, it was early in the game before we had established our dominance, so, to be more accurate, how about "made me yell at my TV set!!!!"
As far as "strengthening my position is concerned" there were enough other posters who had similar observations, I am comfortable with that. Overall, I am a Gervase fan, I am not sure he is all that much better than Snyder was, he is just a more healthy less dinged up option, and a good one at that. Sorry to disagree, but Stone and Hooker are better athletes than Gervase. Still, all together, they all make up a strong and deep safety core with unique strengths that we are very lucky to have.
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Wife covered her ears, dogs scampered to their cages, it wasn't pretty.
I love that we are having these discussions about depth and who gets playing time with all these fairly interchangeable chess pieces on both sides of the ball. I don't think we have had this luxury for a long time, not even in 2015.
Play Niemann at the Leo in the 4-3. Play him at Middle in the 4-2-5. He is our most athletic linebacker and has the size to play inside too. Love Colbert, guy is great in space and presses the line really well.
If McDonald, Benson, Doyle, and Jacobs turn out.... who the hell are we going to play in 2019 and beyond. Corner is a similar situation, with DJ yet to break through.
Is anyone else surprised that Merriweather is getting snaps over craddieth at safety?
If McDonald, Benson, Doyle, and Jacobs turn out.... who the hell are we going to play in 2019 and beyond. Corner is a similar situation, with DJ yet to break through.
Is anyone else surprised that Merriweather is getting snaps over craddieth at safety?
While some of those who feel entitled are wondering why the are not getting more opportunity, adjusting to the consistency of effort and execution required, other kids who came in knowing they had to prove them selves, went to work. If Craddieth has the charactor and is healthy, once he steps up to the challenge, his skills and athleticism should pave the way. That has to be what happened with Moss and Brents, opportunity knocked, and they were ready. Its a long season, and all to often, a game of attrition.
Dalton started the whole '07 season ... a wily RS FR by the name of Sash took over the spot in '08. Chad Greenway, as a sophomore, beat out Worthy for the starting WILL spot back in '03. Towards the end of '17 ... even though Rugamba was more of an incumbent starter ... Hankins passed him and he was just a TR FR!
I agree that you don't always see incumbent starters getting dethroned with great frequency ... but the point is that it happens sometimes. Furthermore, you DO see young backups pass veteran backups with pretty good frequency. And that permits younger guys to rapidly rise up the depth chart. We saw that just this year with Djimon Colbert. Welch was a reasonably more veteran guy, a TR JR, who had seen extensive special teams action ... and had seen back-up game reps ... and yet Colbert won the WILL spot as a RS FR!
Similarly, Desmond King received his opportunity in '13 as a TR FR because Lomax got dinged ... but he still beat out Draper ... and Draper was a guy who was perceived as good enough to receive reps as a TR FR the prior season. King beat out Reese Fleming too ... and Fleming was a guy who Phil was exceedingly high on in the recruiting game.
Perhaps more surprising was when Mabin moved over from WR to CB, prior to the '14 season. Again, Fleming and Draper were pretty good guys ... with talent and experience in the CB room ... and yet Mabin jumped ahead of them to earn the starting spot in '14 as just a SO.
Another surprising move ... that didn't relate to a younger guy beating an older guy ... but Phil's choice of Lowdermilk over Law as the starting SS in '13 definitely surprised some folks (both from within and outside the program). People gushed about Nico Law's athleticism ... but the guy never had down cerebral side of the position. He obviously had issues understanding his leverage within the D ... and he was constantly out of position. It was one of those instances where some folks would claim that Phil played the "less talented" player ... but where some folks would be missing the boat was that just because a guy is a more impressive athlete, that doesn't make him the better football player. This is why I cringe when I hear folks jaw about guys who are "gamers" ... because it encourages a lot of folks out there to statically view a player. The truth is that players are dynamic ... they can be terrible when they're less experienced ... but they can still improve and develop into pretty elite players. In fact, a lot of guys who are perceived as "gamers" ... have garnered that label because they've worked so hard to develop that seemingly innate football instinct that allows them to improvise better than others. Furthermore, if a guy is a "gamer" and improvises ... he better do it within the context of the team ... and not just free-lancing and abandoning his base responsibilities.
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You're 'scratching' to win your argument. The DB's you're listing were not upper classmen and incumbent starters and Fleming and Draper were never very good and weren't upper classmen returning starters that King or Mabin beat out. You were saying that true freshmen and rsfreshmen are going to beat out returning starters who are mainly jr.s and sr.s. You still have not made a good argument for it or rebuked anything I've said. You're just trying to slightly switch the argument. Greenway was a soph. that doesn't support your argument about fr. and rsfreshmen in anyway shape of form. Like I said, I like your posts, but now you're just trying to 'talk' me to death with nothing that supports the crux of the debate.
Some of these HS kids are taught absolutely nothing about reading ANYTHING in high school by their coaches, so some of them really struggle when they get to college. The Big12 doesn't really teach anyone to read anything either, they just send them in gaps, man them up or give them a zone. That's why the Big12 sucks at defense. The technique the D line plays and having to 2 gap, the LB's having to read their 'triangles', the reads the DB's (especially safeties) have to make are really foreign to a lot of these kids and some grasp it faster than others. Some never grasp it. I would guess that's Craddieth's biggest problem right now.
Who says Niemann is the 'most athletic' LB? Based on what criteria? Yes, I like him also, but I could make an argument for many LB's being more 'athletic' (physically strong, fit, active). Based on the definition, I would say Jones is our most athletic LB as he is way stronger, just as fit, and probably more active than any of our other LB's. I'm not saying that Niemann isn't the best person to play in the middle when we go 'hybrid', I'm just saying calling him the most athletic isn't quite accurate and doesn't support your position.
Oh, and Dalton was horrible as were the Hawks that year. You found one instance, but it's still not a great example under those circumstances.
Where have I stated that a RS FR or a TR FR LB would be starting over upperclassmen? All I've said is that the young talented LBs will be able to help push the competition forward ... and, furthermore, if the older guys let complacency or entitlement issues creep in ... then the coaches won't hesitate to play a younger guy who is approaching things the right way.
I'm not "trying to win an argument" ... rather, I'm just repeating the same arguments I state to people when they claim that the Iowa coaches ONLY favor the upperclassmen and don't give younger guys a good look.
The point is that if the upperclassman is talented and approaching things as he should ... then he ought to have a marked advantage at retaining the spot. Hawkeye football is premised on playing physical, smart, and tough football. Upperclassmen have worked more with Doyle ... so that automatically should given them advantages as it relates to functional strength ... which should help them as it relates to playing physical ball. Iowa goes out of its way to find "football players" ... so when the coaches are "on their mark" with the evaluations ... then the guy most likely has a strong foundation as it relates to toughness. But then, being an upperclassman can REALLY help guys when it comes to their football IQ ... because the more experienced guys are usually much better (and more discipline) as it relates to preparing for the opponents and breaking down film critically and effectively.
Lastly, I never solely emphasized that the "young guy" has to be a TR or RS FR ... to me, Greenway is still a perfect example ... because he still displaced a returning starter.
And yes ... I agree that Dalton wasn't good ... we were pretty limited personnel-wise at safety back then ... once Moylan went down to injury ... that forced Phil to start Greenwood as a RS FR! We're talking about a walk-on RS FR ... albeit a talented kid who approached things the right way (and who didn't lack in talent).
See, once again, you think if you type more then you 'win'. The redshirt freshmen and the freshmen where exactly what 'we' were talking about and now you're changing your story. And it just wasn't you in the conversation. You are interesting to read, but you, like most, are never wrong. I'll repeat: None of the fr. or rsfr. will be starters next year and I strongly doubt they will supplant any of the 5 I listed on the depth chart barring injury. I'm moving on, I hope you will too. Thanks for your input, but there's nothing left to discuss.
Oh, and Colbert found the starting line up not because he passed up Welch and Hockaday, but because Welch got dinged the first game after being OUR BEST LB THAT GAME. Once again your argument is invalid. I give you A's for effort, but like I said, you think you can talk people to death and they'll miss all your inaccurate statements. And YES, you said that Colbert beat out those guys to start. WRONG. Quote: "Iowa Coach Kirk Ferentz said Welch actually worked out with the team Friday but didn’t practice all week, which led to the decision to give Colbert his first significant playing time. The kid did fine."
Truly an odd reply. Anybody who has tracked my posting record here knows what to expect from my posting style ... I'm verbose. Furthermore, I could care less about winning or losing an argument .... I just care about there being a quality discourse.
However, I'll keep this simple and short .... where had I posted stating that I expected TR FR or RS FR to start?
So you are denying now that you said Colbert beat out Welch, Hockaday.......They players you mentioned will be freshman and redshirt freshmen.
Sure I did ... but isn't that a moot point since neither Welch nor Hockaday were returning starters?
Anyhow, the statement isn't intended to take anything away from Hockaday or Welch. Both guys are enormously valuable guys on the team ... and both have helped the team to become better. I have no desire to create any factions on the squad.
However, with all that said .... look at how our run D executed when Colbert played against ISU. You're completely correct that Colbert got his opportunity due to Welch getting dinged ... but he certainly made the most of his opportunity. Furthermore, exiting camp, I know for a fact that the margin between the two guys was pretty narrow.
Now, subsequently, look at how the playing time has been distributed at WILL ... against Wisconsin, the split between Welch and Colbert was essentially split between halves. Against the Gophers, Colbert held down the fort outright at WILL ... whereas Welch only played as a packaged LB.
As for my claim about Colbert beating Hockaday at WILL ... the primary talk out of camp was that the main competition for the 3rd LB spot was between Wade, Welch, and Colbert. If Wade distanced himself the most ... the idea would have been that Niemann would have slid over to WILL and Wade would play at LEO. The competition between Welch and Colbert was documented as being exceedingly close. First off, notice that there was very little discussion of Hockaday at WILL. Secondly, look at how the coaches handled the personnel when Welch was dinged .... they could have easily had slid Hockaday over to WILL (if he were ahead of Colbert at the spot) and inserted Jones at the MIKE. That's obviously not what was done.
If Colbert remains healthy ... I don't see him relinquishing the starting WILL spot. Isn't that one of the very definitions of "winning the job."
For example, Barrington Wade is currently listed as the #1 LEO LB on the depth chart. However, once Niemann is at 100% ... do you think that Wade will retain the #1 spot? The answer is no ... he'll take the spot back!
If Colbert HADN'T beaten out Welch for the spot ... we'd see Welch retaking the WILL spot. The following weeks might prove you right ... and perhaps Welch does retake the spot. However, at this juncture, I'd honestly be surprised if that ends up being the case!
However, to reiterate ... YES I did claim that Colbert beat out Welch (and Hockaday) for the starting WILL spot ... and that's because he DID!
I would agree with that, Jones is likely our most athletic linebacker. I should have said most skilled, although I don't have much to back that up besides his limited playing time.
I think parker did mention that he was faster than his brother Ben sometime last year, to me that would signify that he is either our most athletic or close to but i understand that there is more involved than just speed in assessing athleticism.
He may not have enough pop to play inside too, but i'd sure like to see him get an opportunity if we stick with Hooker outside. I'd guess we see our traditional 4-3 set against Maryland with Welch manning the middle. However, to me it wouldn't make much sense to pull Niemann and play Welch/Hockaday/Jones inside, when imo, Niemann is more talented than all of them.
Blah, blah, blah. I'm not even reading this. HE DID NOT BEAT OUT WELCH OR HOCKADAY FOR THE STARTING WILL SPOT, AND I ALREADY PROVIDED PROOF OF THAT AND I CAN PROVIDE MORE. Are you mental, or just a republican....but I repeat myself, LOL. Nice 'alternative facts', lol
You're not a politician by chance, are you? Because you love to hear yourself talk and you sure love to talk in circles always trying to leave yourself an out and back peddling constantly. You probably write 'spin' for them.
Where did you prove a darn thing? I've failed to read any "proof."
In a game or two ... we'll be seeing Niemann back at the LEO spot. That's because he's "won" that spot.
In a game or two ... we'll NOT be seeing Welch back at the WILL spot ... that's because Colbert "won" the spot.
The proof will be in the pudding based on where guys will receive snaps. If we end up seeing Welch back at WILL ... then I'll happily concede that Colbert didn't win the spot. I don't see that happening. Do you?
I'm a theoretical physicist ... so, yeah, I'm not lacking in confidence.
Oddly enough ... you're the one who "spins." I have the intellectual integrity to admit when the facts are counter to my claims.
Keep spinning, you'll get dizzy and shut up eventually. He did NOT beat out Welch, that is a fact. I'm going to start addressing you as Kelly from now on.
Oh, you bull shit artists gave yourself a scientific name? LOL. You're lacking in a lot of things, Kelly, but you are correct, confidence isn't one of them. You do understand that confidence has nothing to do with facts or being right, don't you Kelly? Intellectual integrity? LOL. So you're true to your own thinking? That doesn't support anything.
I know you were, I was just wondering if anyone knew if he played special teams in the second half.
I gotta be honest: I stopped reading. (No offense to anyone!) Not trying to support or attack anyone, but if an older player is "even" with a younger player, it doesn't take much sense to realize the better player is the younger guy. You had another year (or more) of training, food, knowledge, and support, and you're even... you're leavin. That is all.
The sorry fact is that I'm the one who has supplied a supporting argument. Why don't you actually supply some supporting reasoning. You've supplied one quote from Ferentz. I've supplied evidence and reasoning based on what we've heard from camp AND from the choices that have been made by the coaches based on who's been playing.
Rather than keeping on topic ... you're replying with memes, statements in caps-lock, and everything but a cogent argument. I understand that you've simply been trolling me ... and I've been playing along because I've enjoyed it. However, the weakness of your rebuttals has gotten tiring.
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