Do these Numbers Mean Anything?

[pablow]

Top 20 recruits on next years rosters:

PSU:
2015 #5 Vincenzo Joseph Pittsburgh PA
2014 #4 Jason Nolf Rural Valley PA
#5 Nick Nevills Clovis CA
#7 Bo Nickal Allen TX
2013 #3 Zain Retherford Benton PA
2012 #3 Jimmy Gulibon Derry PA
2011 #1 Morgan McIntosh Santa Ana CA
#3. Nico Megaludis Murrysville PA
tOSU:
2015 #3 Myles Martin Penn's Grove NJ
# 8 Ke-Shawn Hayes Kansas City MO
2014 #1 Kyle Snyder Woodbine MD
# 6 Micah Jordan St. Paris OH
#9 Thomas Haines Solanco PA
2013 #1 Bo Jordan St. Paris OH
#10 Nathan Tomasello Parma OH
2011 #7. Hunter Stieber Monroeville OH
#12 Kenny Courts Harrisburg PA
OSU:
2015 #4 Nick Piccinnini East Seatuket NY
#13 Joseph Smith Stillwater OK 2014 #[/B]2 Chance Marsteller Fawn Grove PA
#13 Chandler Rogers Stillwater OK
#16 Ryan Blees Bismarck ND
2013 #[/B]13 Dean Heil Strongsville OH
2012 #[/B]4 Jordan Rogers Mead WA

#14 Kyle Crutchmer Tulsa OK
2011 #8 Austin Ormsbee Andover NJ #15 Alex Dieringer Pt. Washington WI
Iowa:
2015 #10. Michael Kemerer Murrysville PA
2014 #14 Sam Stoll Mantorville MN
2012 # [/B]16 Thomas Gilman Council Bluffs IA
# 20 Sam Brooks Oak Park IL

This snapshoot is fairly typical. Yet, Iowa will be in the mix because our staff can coach. For those of you that bitch about the team consider these numbers above. In his second year as a starter #23 recruit Cory Clark is in the finals. Freshman Brandon Sorensen (#27) was at the top of the 149 class all year and finished 4th. Can't coach?

We have some top-notch athletic recruits verbally committed so Tom and Terry have made the recruiting adjustment already.

PSU and tOSU have been assemblying all-star teams. Yet the Iowa staff is graduating guys like Ramos and Metcalf [USA world team members), McDonough (bronze at the World University Games). Not to mention #16 Gilman who medaled at the Junior Worlds. [Hell we had three 125 pounders in the room at once - McD, Ramos, & Gilman - that are on USA world freestyle teams!!! All the other schools combined had ZERO.] So bitch, bitch, and then bitch some more.

This board has given me a headache the last two days. Yes, Tom Brands is hard headed (actually one of his best qualities) and Cory Clark should lift some weights (actually he did just fine for a skinny mopped top kid) but most of the bitching has been whiney, idiotic, and embarrassing.



This post was edited on 3/22 11:49 AM by pablow

This post was edited on 3/22 11:51 AM by pablow

 

[whejoe]

We were co big 10 champs and were 2nd at Nationals. Not bad in my book. Yes this was the year we were supposed to win but there are no guarantees. It was a really enjoyable season for me. I had a great time at the ia/mn dual and national duals.

I'm excited to see Alex, Burke, and Seth in the lineup next year!

 

[FineMaterial]

While you make some good points this really begs the question: Why can't Iowa get the top guys?
Iowa is the big name as far as NCAA wrestling success. There has to be a story / trend here somewhere.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

We can probably add Marinelli, Mejia, and Renteria, or at least probably two of the three, to our list of top 20 overall recruits for upcoming years. We're off to a pretty good start. Throw in a Lee and/or a Hall, and the tables can start to turn in our favor in a real hurry. I see movement in a positive direction.

At risk of stating the obvious, this stuff is much easier said than done. Like anything, there will be ebbs and flows. Hopefully we're on the verge of an uptick in Iowa recruiting.

One great thing about Iowa wrestling is that, even with some lean recruiting years recently, we're still in the title conversation just about every year. Even programs like PSU, which was at its pinnacle just last year, can't stay in the conversation as consistently as Iowa does. Yes, Cael shirted Nico and Retherford, but that was obviously their choice, and not shirting them would have cost them next year and beyond. The fact is that they were basically irrelevant to the title chase just one year after losing Taylor and Ruth. Minnesota was nowhere to be found. Okie State was pretty much an afterthought, too. Things didn't go our way, but we were still in the hunt.

While I want to see national team titles as much as the next guy, Iowa has had a unique ability to remain in the title conversation just about every year, with only a few exceptions, over 4 decades. That's pretty special -- and here we are, coming off a runner-up finish, and you almost get the feeling we're about to emerge from a slump!

 

[sloehawk]

I'd feel a little better if we were not so distant from the Champs as we have been. That's not really being in the running, regardless of trophy, IMO. I'd still feel crappy being close and not winning, but would like to make it more interesting.

On a side note, I do enjoy the Finals more when there is Team Drama involved, even when The Hawks are not a part of it (sure felt good when Iowa was clinching on Friday nights back in the day though!).

As for the Coaching Staff, all I know is Gable was great because the results say so (he was even better as a wrestler IMO). As for anyone else on the planet, not sure.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Agreed. We've had some tough luck and some just flat-out surprisingly disappointing performances at Nationals in recent years, and PSU and tOSU have gotten it done when it counted, to their credit. Most years, we've at least had the firepower to be right in the hunt on Saturday night.

If given the choice, I'd just take a team title clinched on Friday night. . . .

 

[depelland]

I'll be curious to see if we see any improvement in technique used by Hawks when wrestling from their feet. So many of them just come straight at you when shooting, and if not shooting, they spend to much time just tying up with their opponent and pushing them out of bounds. Ironside repeatedly stated on the radio that to many of the Hawks only use their go to shot when attempting TDs and if it fails they shut down. Instead they should try a variety of TDs. (single, double, duck under, ankle pick, snap down, etc) In my opinion our coaching staff really needs to work on improving the technique of our current wrestlers and also motivate them to Not wait until the 2nd/3rd period before even attempting a legitimate shot.

This years team had way to much talent to allow itself to finish a distant second at NCAAs especially considering that 5 of the starting spots were filled with seniors.
It will be very interesting to see if guy's like Gilman, Clark, Sorensen, Meyers, and Brooks continue to make improvement over the next couple years and win individual titles or if they make little to no progress and end up like this years senior class.

I never would have thought that when they arrived on campus 5 yrs ago that Moore, Evans, Jeva, or Telford would never win an individual Big 10 or NCAA title. Just seems that minimal progress was made in their last two years for the majority of them.

Hopefully our current underclassmen continue to develop and make the required improvement that leads them to NCAA individual and team titles. They have the talent and ability to do so and now need to make it happen.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I'll be very surprised if we don't see steady progress from Gilman, Brooks, Meyer, and Sorensen over the next couple of years. Clark is already there -- he uses a variety of attacks from neutral and is a hellishly good rider and turner. He just needs to finish what he started last week.

I also have a good feeling that we'll see good progress from these youngsters in the program and the guys coming in. I respect the heck out of the outgoing senior class, but I do think complacency settled in for some of those guys where improving technique was concerned. I don't think we'll see that with the guys coming up or the young guys in the program. They strike me as a group that are very hungry to improve and to win championships.

 

[TarpHawk]

Those numbers mean we're going to continue to be 25 points shy of a team title unless we change our recruiting philosophy from getting 6-8 top-75 guys at partial scholly to 2-3 top-10 guys at full ride.

We have shown a consistent inability over the past several years to score 100 points at NCAAs (only 3 times in the past 8 years, and only once in the past 5). That means it's about us. We're doing something wrong. We're perennially 25 points shy, as we were this year.

Why? Because we don't send enough guys to the finals. We have a great supporting cast but no stars. Iowa generated 84 points this year. Tomasello and Stieber alone generated 50.5. I'm going to pause here so you can re-read that and go, "Holy s#**."

That's why Ohio State won with 5 AAs to Iowa's 6: they had 1,1, 2, 3, 5. We had 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7.

We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs! Message to Brands: we need finalists and champs!

Brands loves depth, and he loves to take chances on under-the-radar guys who have potential and a great attitude and embody the Brands lifestyle--but that and a buck get you a cup of coffee at the Coralville Hardees. Once in a blue moon you end up with a #75 Delgado (sorry to use him as an example), or the kid from WV who pinned Gilman. More often you end up with Kelly--great kid, hard worker, who contributed exactly 0 NCAA points during his career.

Stieber apparently said he really wanted to come to Iowa, but tOSU made him a better offer. We would've won NCAAs with Stieber--in 2 of the past 4 years. Easy to say in retrospect? Maybe. We could've recruited the Altons instead. (In fact, we recruited Dziea and Evans and Moore instead.) But...you're telling me that we didn't give the Stiebers full rides at least in part because we wanted to spread our money around on guys like Kelly? Okay. We finished 25 points back as a result, but...okay.

You know...it's just math. Add up the points you need to win, and add up how many we can get from a well-balanced team of guys who place 5th-6th-7th-8th. Guess what? We end up 25 points shy. Every year. "Darn it--happened again! We don't know why. Oh, well, try again."

I'm not going to comment specifically on Gross, Paddock, and Stoll--I want them to be NCAA champs, and I hope they are NCAA champs next year. Because that is what we need--guys who have a fighting shot at being champs as freshmen. Not 50-50 shots at AA-ing as juniors and seniors.

I expect Kemerer and Marinelli to be great. Flo has them at #11 and #13--not even top 10, and I'm more excited about them than I've been about any Iowa recruits in a long time. So I think we're on the right track--but we need more than 1 per year (Marinelli's a junior), and we need a top-5 P4P every year.

Here's an interesting idea no one has thought of before: Hall and Lee. I know, I know, we're Iowa. We don't need anybody. It's our way or the highway. Recruits come to us.

Okay, that's my closing-season rant. On that note, I've really enjoyed this season--some great matches, some great duals, and I really, really thought we might win it all this year. Only 25 points shy. Again. Sigh.

 

[Sandor45]

Marinelli is a top 5 p4p in my IMO.
Kemerer is right there with the elite.
Turk and Wilke have major upside.

All these guys I think have the right mindset. I think they fit the mold of the Hawkeye and Brands Way.

 

[sloehawk]

Originally posted by TarpHawk:
Those numbers mean we're going to continue to be 25 points shy of a team title unless we change our recruiting philosophy from getting 6-8 top-75 guys at partial scholly to 2-3 top-10 guys at full ride.

We have shown a consistent inability over the past several years to score 100 points at NCAAs (only 3 times in the past 8 years, and only once in the past 5). That means it's about us. We're doing something wrong. We're perennially 25 points shy, as we were this year.

Why? Because we don't send enough guys to the finals. We have a great supporting cast but no stars. Iowa generated 84 points this year. Tomasello and Stieber alone generated 50.5. I'm going to pause here so you can re-read that and go, "Holy s#**."

That's why Ohio State won with 5 AAs to Iowa's 6: they had 1,1, 2, 3, 5. We had 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7.

We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs! Message to Brands: we need finalists and champs!

Brands loves depth, and he loves to take chances on under-the-radar guys who have potential and a great attitude and embody the Brands lifestyle--but that and a buck get you a cup of coffee at the Coralville Hardees. Once in a blue moon you end up with a #75 Delgado (sorry to use him as an example), or the kid from WV who pinned Gilman. More often you end up with Kelly--great kid, hard worker, who contributed exactly 0 NCAA points during his career.

Stieber apparently said he really wanted to come to Iowa, but tOSU made him a better offer. We would've won NCAAs with Stieber--in 2 of the past 4 years. Easy to say in retrospect? Maybe. We could've recruited the Altons instead. (In fact, we recruited Dziea and Evans and Moore instead.) But...you're telling me that we didn't give the Stiebers full rides at least in part because we wanted to spread our money around on guys like Kelly? Okay. We finished 25 points back as a result, but...okay.

You know...it's just math. Add up the points you need to win, and add up how many we can get from a well-balanced team of guys who place 5th-6th-7th-8th. Guess what? We end up 25 points shy. Every year. "Darn it--happened again! We don't know why. Oh, well, try again."

I'm not going to comment specifically on Gross, Paddock, and Stoll--I want them to be NCAA champs, and I hope they are NCAA champs next year. Because that is what we need--guys who have a fighting shot at being champs as freshmen. Not 50-50 shots at AA-ing as juniors and seniors.

I expect Kemerer and Marinelli to be great. Flo has them at #11 and #13--not even top 10, and I'm more excited about them than I've been about any Iowa recruits in a long time. So I think we're on the right track--but we need more than 1 per year (Marinelli's a junior), and we need a top-5 P4P every year.

Here's an interesting idea no one has thought of before: Hall and Lee. I know, I know, we're Iowa. We don't need anybody. It's our way or the highway. Recruits come to us.

Okay, that's my closing-season rant. On that note, I've really enjoyed this season--some great matches, some great duals, and I really, really thought we might win it all this year. Only 25 points shy. Again. Sigh.

I don't consider that a rant. I think you nailed it.

 

[Knight563]

These are the best posts in a long time...love it!!!

 

[minnhawkeye]

Originally posted by TarpHawk:
Those numbers mean we're going to continue to be 25 points shy of a team title unless we change our recruiting philosophy from getting 6-8 top-75 guys at partial scholly to 2-3 top-10 guys at full ride.

We have shown a consistent inability over the past several years to score 100 points at NCAAs (only 3 times in the past 8 years, and only once in the past 5). That means it's about us. We're doing something wrong. We're perennially 25 points shy, as we were this year.

Why? Because we don't send enough guys to the finals. We have a great supporting cast but no stars. Iowa generated 84 points this year. Tomasello and Stieber alone generated 50.5. I'm going to pause here so you can re-read that and go, "Holy s#**."

That's why Ohio State won with 5 AAs to Iowa's 6: they had 1,1, 2, 3, 5. We had 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7.

We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs! Message to Brands: we need finalists and champs!

Brands loves depth, and he loves to take chances on under-the-radar guys who have potential and a great attitude and embody the Brands lifestyle--but that and a buck get you a cup of coffee at the Coralville Hardees. Once in a blue moon you end up with a #75 Delgado (sorry to use him as an example), or the kid from WV who pinned Gilman. More often you end up with Kelly--great kid, hard worker, who contributed exactly 0 NCAA points during his career.

Stieber apparently said he really wanted to come to Iowa, but tOSU made him a better offer. We would've won NCAAs with Stieber--in 2 of the past 4 years. Easy to say in retrospect? Maybe. We could've recruited the Altons instead. (In fact, we recruited Dziea and Evans and Moore instead.) But...you're telling me that we didn't give the Stiebers full rides at least in part because we wanted to spread our money around on guys like Kelly? Okay. We finished 25 points back as a result, but...okay.

You know...it's just math. Add up the points you need to win, and add up how many we can get from a well-balanced team of guys who place 5th-6th-7th-8th. Guess what? We end up 25 points shy. Every year. "Darn it--happened again! We don't know why. Oh, well, try again."

I'm not going to comment specifically on Gross, Paddock, and Stoll--I want them to be NCAA champs, and I hope they are NCAA champs next year. Because that is what we need--guys who have a fighting shot at being champs as freshmen. Not 50-50 shots at AA-ing as juniors and seniors.

I expect Kemerer and Marinelli to be great. Flo has them at #11 and #13--not even top 10, and I'm more excited about them than I've been about any Iowa recruits in a long time. So I think we're on the right track--but we need more than 1 per year (Marinelli's a junior), and we need a top-5 P4P every year.

Here's an interesting idea no one has thought of before: Hall and Lee. I know, I know, we're Iowa. We don't need anybody. It's our way or the highway. Recruits come to us.

Okay, that's my closing-season rant. On that note, I've really enjoyed this season--some great matches, some great duals, and I really, really thought we might win it all this year. Only 25 points shy. Again. Sigh.

+ 1
All comes down to Hawks need to get better recurits. Hawks don't need new coaches, In the future I see Metcalf after next year moving in to coach and learn the tools. (Which can really be a nice selling tool to Hall)

 

[SPOONER]

Originally posted by whejoe:
We were co big 10 champs and were 2nd at Nationals. Not bad in my book. Yes this was the year we were supposed to win but there are no guarantees. It was a really enjoyable season for me. I had a great time at the ia/mn dual and national duals.

I'm excited to see Alex, Burke, and Seth in the lineup next year!

For the record, this was the year Minnesota was supposed to win.

Good points all around, otherwise.

 

[evashevsky58]

Anyone know what some of our recent former champs were as far as recruit rankings, such as Metcalf, Ramos stjohn, borschel, etc

 

[Jackhawk87]

I think you pretty much nailed it Tarp. Can't disagree with anything you have said.

One other thing I also noticed about pretty much all of the finalists (except Clark) is how powerful these guys were. Very explosive and powerful. I can see how you could take a very gifted, but raw athlete who is not that highly rated and improve his technique to produce a champion. Much more difficult to take a wrestler with limited athletic ability and strength and make him a champ - our seniors seem to fall into this camp. Our younger guys seem more athletic and hopefully will lead us to the promised land.

 

[Mattski]

Originally posted by TarpHawk:
Those numbers mean we're going to continue to be 25 points shy of a team title unless we change our recruiting philosophy from getting 6-8 top-75 guys at partial scholly to 2-3 top-10 guys at full ride.



We have shown a consistent inability over the past several years to score 100 points at NCAAs (only 3 times in the past 8 years, and only once in the past 5). That means it's about us. We're doing something wrong. We're perennially 25 points shy, as we were this year.



Why? Because we don't send enough guys to the finals. We have a great supporting cast but no stars. Iowa generated 84 points this year. Tomasello and Stieber alone generated 50.5. I'm going to pause here so you can re-read that and go, "Holy s#**."



That's why Ohio State won with 5 AAs to Iowa's 6: they had 1,1, 2, 3, 5. We had 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7.



We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs! Message to Brands: we need finalists and champs!



Brands loves depth, and he loves to take chances on under-the-radar guys who have potential and a great attitude and embody the Brands lifestyle--but that and a buck get you a cup of coffee at the Coralville Hardees. Once in a blue moon you end up with a #75 Delgado (sorry to use him as an example), or the kid from WV who pinned Gilman. More often you end up with Kelly--great kid, hard worker, who contributed exactly 0 NCAA points during his career.



Stieber apparently said he really wanted to come to Iowa, but tOSU made him a better offer. We would've won NCAAs with Stieber--in 2 of the past 4 years. Easy to say in retrospect? Maybe. We could've recruited the Altons instead. (In fact, we recruited Dziea and Evans and Moore instead.) But...you're telling me that we didn't give the Stiebers full rides at least in part because we wanted to spread our money around on guys like Kelly? Okay. We finished 25 points back as a result, but...okay.



You know...it's just math. Add up the points you need to win, and add up how many we can get from a well-balanced team of guys who place 5th-6th-7th-8th. Guess what? We end up 25 points shy. Every year. "Darn it--happened again! We don't know why. Oh, well, try again."



I'm not going to comment specifically on Gross, Paddock, and Stoll--I want them to be NCAA champs, and I hope they are NCAA champs next year. Because that is what we need--guys who have a fighting shot at being champs as freshmen. Not 50-50 shots at AA-ing as juniors and seniors.



I expect Kemerer and Marinelli to be great. Flo has them at #11 and #13--not even top 10, and I'm more excited about them than I've been about any Iowa recruits in a long time. So I think we're on the right track--but we need more than 1 per year (Marinelli's a junior), and we need a top-5 P4P every year.



Here's an interesting idea no one has thought of before: Hall and Lee. I know, I know, we're Iowa. We don't need anybody. It's our way or the highway. Recruits come to us.



Okay, that's my closing-season rant. On that note, I've really enjoyed this season--some great matches, some great duals, and I really, really thought we might win it all this year. Only 25 points shy. Again. Sigh.

Great post. I really understand if TnT understand this and are open minded enough to adapt and change our recruiting and scholly money distribution tactics?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Great posts on this thread ! Good points. Takes some of the level headed, sane regulars to put things in perspective.

8 wrestlers came into NCCAA undefeated. 4 are left. Stribbler, Imar, Dieringer and Gwhiz.

Waters was undefeated and slipped up. So did Dardanes. 3rd and 4th respectively after being ranked and seeded 1.

Kokesh undefeated, ranked and seeded 1 and finished 3rd.

And of course J'Den Cox undefeated and ranked and seeded #1. Finished 5th. Same as Telford did.

Can you imagine if we had any of these undefeated #1 on our team and they finished like this what all the screaming and whining would have been like these last couple of days ?

What if we had Cox instead of Burak. Talk about a meltdown on this board. #1 ranked finishing 5th. Heck I might even want to fire Brands myself.....

The negativity is something we all have to weather at this time of the year. We know that it just gets harder and more annoying as we get older and the longer between titles.

We haven't been getting those top end, sure fire recruits like Metcalf, Stribbler, Taylor. Not that many of them out there though. And we haven't gotten enough of the top 5 or even top 10. Not sure why, but it needs to start happening if we want to get back to the top again.

Even if PSU, OSU, and tOSU aren't getting the very top 10 types and those guys are scattered around the country at VA. VT. Cornell, ASU, West VA., etc. we still will run into them at NCAA and they will knock some of our guys out. Some of those teams may only get 1 or 2 AA, but they may be finalist.

Even though we haven't been getting the top 10 type guys, we're sure doing GREAT with the guys ranked in the 20's like Gilman, Clark, Sorensen, Brooks. They have been great fun to watch and see their growth and improvement. More to come for them.

Tarp's post about not getting Stribbler because tOSU made a better offer is sad if true. Perhaps the Coaches will see that as an error and make adjustments in the future...aka...Hall, Lee, etc.

PSU and tOSU look strong for the next several years and will be tough to beat, but don't count us out yet.

The future with Kemerer & Marinelli added into these Sophs is tantalizing. We just need one Metcalf or Stribbler type every other year or so to go along with what is coming in the door now and all will be fine. So go sign them up M*.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

OBTW ........Tarp.....great post and ideas......


but someone said the same thing in a different thread in only one sentence.........

 

[hogghawk]

Originally posted by pablow:
Top 20 recruits on next years rosters:

PSU:
2015 #5 Vincenzo Joseph Pittsburgh PA
2014 #4 Jason Nolf Rural Valley PA
#5 Nick Nevills Clovis CA
#7 Bo Nickal Allen TX
2013 #3 Zain Retherford Benton PA
2012 #3 Jimmy Gulibon Derry PA
2011 #1 Morgan McIntosh Santa Ana CA
#3. Nico Megaludis Murrysville PA
tOSU:
2015 #3 Myles Martin Penn's Grove NJ
# 8 Ke-Shawn Hayes Kansas City MO
2014 #1 Kyle Snyder Woodbine MD
# 6 Micah Jordan St. Paris OH
#9 Thomas Haines Solanco PA
2013 #1 Bo Jordan St. Paris OH
#10 Nathan Tomasello Parma OH
2011 #7. Hunter Stieber Monroeville OH
#12 Kenny Courts Harrisburg PA
OSU:
2015 #4 Nick Piccinnini East Seatuket NY
#13 Joseph Smith Stillwater OK 2014 #[/B]2 Chance Marsteller Fawn Grove PA
#13 Chandler Rogers Stillwater OK
#16 Ryan Blees Bismarck ND
2013 #[/B]13 Dean Heil Strongsville OH
2012 #[/B]4 Jordan Rogers Mead WA

#14 Kyle Crutchmer Tulsa OK
2011 #8 Austin Ormsbee Andover NJ #15 Alex Dieringer Pt. Washington WI
Iowa:
2015 #10. Michael Kemerer Murrysville PA
2014 #14 Sam Stoll Mantorville MN
2012 # [/B]16 Thomas Gilman Council Bluffs IA
# 20 Sam Brooks Oak Park IL

This snapshoot is fairly typical. Yet, Iowa will be in the mix because our staff can coach. For those of you that bitch about the team consider these numbers above. In his second year as a starter #23 recruit Cory Clark is in the finals. Freshman Brandon Sorensen (#27) was at the top of the 149 class all year and finished 4th. Can't coach?

We have some top-notch athletic recruits verbally committed so Tom and Terry have made the recruiting adjustment already.

PSU and tOSU have been assemblying all-star teams. Yet the Iowa staff is graduating guys like Ramos and Metcalf [USA world team members), McDonough (bronze at the World University Games). Not to mention #16 Gilman who medaled at the Junior Worlds. [Hell we had three 125 pounders in the room at once - McD, Ramos, & Gilman - that are on USA world freestyle teams!!! All the other schools combined had ZERO.] So bitch, bitch, and then bitch some more.

This board has given me a headache the last two days. Yes, Tom Brands is hard headed (actually one of his best qualities) and Cory Clark should lift some weights (actually he did just fine for a skinny mopped top kid) but most of the bitching has been whiney, idiotic, and embarrassing.



This post was edited on 3/22 11:49 AM by pablow

This post was edited on 3/22 11:51 AM by pablow

Good post Pablow. Agree with all of it. Looking forward to the future.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I really agree with Tarp's analysis. IMO, he nailed it! It's still a crap shoot every year, but a half dozen AA's or so per year is not very likely to take the title if another team has a champ or two and 2-3 other AA's.

 

[moug]

Top 10 recruits who have won titles in the last 5 years by HS graduation year.

2010- 1/10-granted he won 4 titles, but if you consider each of the 10 had 4 years to compete it's still 4/40
2011- 0/10
2012- 1/10- Tshirt
2013- 3/10- Cox, Martinez, Tomasello- Martinez seems the only one who I would say is a true front runner going into next year, while I thought the same about Cox this year and he finished 5th.
2014- 0/1- I believe Snyder is the only one to burn the RS- not enough of a sample for the class, but safe to assume he'll put up some good career totals for tOSU at NCAAs in his career.

What does this mean? Not real sure. Maybe these rankings just stink?




recruiting rankings

 

[sloehawk]

Originally posted by moug:
Top 10 recruits who have won titles in the last 5 years by HS graduation year.

2010- 1/10-granted he won 4 titles, but if you consider each of the 10 had 4 years to compete it's still 4/40
2011- 0/10
2012- 1/10- Tshirt
2013- 3/10- Cox, Martinez, Tomasello- Martinez seems the only one who I would say is a true front runner going into next year, while I thought the same about Cox this year and he finished 5th.
2014- 0/1- I believe Snyder is the only one to burn the RS- not enough of a sample for the class, but safe to assume he'll put up some good career totals for tOSU at NCAAs in his career.

What does this mean? Not real sure. Maybe these rankings just stink?

I've said all along I love what J'Den Cox CAN bring to the table, he's got all the ability in the world it appears, but he has never appeared to have the "want-to" every single time I've seen him wrestle, which isn't a lot, but it was consistent in the small sample size I witnessed. He's in that camp that one little misstep puts him on the back side real quick. I am elated that he and Jason Tsirtsis are no longer in the 4 Timer conversation, only due to their wrestling styles. They both seem like really good kids from afar, so appreciate that part of it, hate the style. And since they aren't Hawks, I hope they don't change their ways, I think both have far more to offer.

As far as the full-ride offers, I am on board to do just that, BUT it is not a predictor of future success. You CAN get burned if Stud of the Decade doesn't pan out. Choose very, very, carefully.

 

[rossel 33]

Informative post pablow.

The numbers do means something. PSU has been getting the cream of the crop out of HS for a good many years, and tOSU joined them in the last two years. That gives them a leg up on everyone.

And yes, Iowa's done pretty well, but not getting the absolute bluest of the blue ribbon HS guys in a while, so it's clear Brands can develop guys. One only has to look at Clark and Sorensen to see that. I am encouraged to see Kemerer, Maraneli, and Mejia headed our way.

No recruiting ranking is perfect, and there will always be guys that are top ranked but don't progress, and guys ranked farther back that have athleticism, heart, and coachability... guys that can excel in the right program. But imho, Iowa needs to grab some of the very elite, top 10 kind of guys, and if that means full scholarships, so be it. Lee and Hall would seem to fit that list.

Originally posted by pablow:
Top 20 recruits on next years rosters:

PSU:
2015 #5 Vincenzo Joseph Pittsburgh PA
2014 #4 Jason Nolf Rural Valley PA
#5 Nick Nevills Clovis CA
#7 Bo Nickal Allen TX
2013 #3 Zain Retherford Benton PA
2012 #3 Jimmy Gulibon Derry PA
2011 #1 Morgan McIntosh Santa Ana CA
#3. Nico Megaludis Murrysville PA
tOSU:
2015 #3 Myles Martin Penn's Grove NJ
# 8 Ke-Shawn Hayes Kansas City MO
2014 #1 Kyle Snyder Woodbine MD
# 6 Micah Jordan St. Paris OH
#9 Thomas Haines Solanco PA
2013 #1 Bo Jordan St. Paris OH
#10 Nathan Tomasello Parma OH
2011 #7. Hunter Stieber Monroeville OH
#12 Kenny Courts Harrisburg PA
OSU:
2015 #4 Nick Piccinnini East Seatuket NY
#13 Joseph Smith Stillwater OK 2014 #[/B]2 Chance Marsteller Fawn Grove PA
#13 Chandler Rogers Stillwater OK
#16 Ryan Blees Bismarck ND
2013 #[/B]13 Dean Heil Strongsville OH
2012 #[/B]4 Jordan Rogers Mead WA

#14 Kyle Crutchmer Tulsa OK
2011 #8 Austin Ormsbee Andover NJ #15 Alex Dieringer Pt. Washington WI
Iowa:
2015 #10. Michael Kemerer Murrysville PA
2014 #14 Sam Stoll Mantorville MN
2012 # [/B]16 Thomas Gilman Council Bluffs IA
# 20 Sam Brooks Oak Park IL

This snapshoot is fairly typical. Yet, Iowa will be in the mix because our staff can coach. For those of you that bitch about the team consider these numbers above. In his second year as a starter #23 recruit Cory Clark is in the finals. Freshman Brandon Sorensen (#27) was at the top of the 149 class all year and finished 4th. Can't coach?

We have some top-notch athletic recruits verbally committed so Tom and Terry have made the recruiting adjustment already.

PSU and tOSU have been assemblying all-star teams. Yet the Iowa staff is graduating guys like Ramos and Metcalf [USA world team members), McDonough (bronze at the World University Games). Not to mention #16 Gilman who medaled at the Junior Worlds. [Hell we had three 125 pounders in the room at once - McD, Ramos, & Gilman - that are on USA world freestyle teams!!! All the other schools combined had ZERO.] So bitch, bitch, and then bitch some more.

This board has given me a headache the last two days. Yes, Tom Brands is hard headed (actually one of his best qualities) and Cory Clark should lift some weights (actually he did just fine for a skinny mopped top kid) but most of the bitching has been whiney, idiotic, and embarrassing.



This post was edited on 3/22 11:49 AM by pablow

This post was edited on 3/22 11:51 AM by pablow

 

[rossel 33]

Nice. Spot on Tarp!

Originally posted by TarpHawk:
Those numbers mean we're going to continue to be 25 points shy of a team title unless we change our recruiting philosophy from getting 6-8 top-75 guys at partial scholly to 2-3 top-10 guys at full ride.

We have shown a consistent inability over the past several years to score 100 points at NCAAs (only 3 times in the past 8 years, and only once in the past 5). That means it's about us. We're doing something wrong. We're perennially 25 points shy, as we were this year.

Why? Because we don't send enough guys to the finals. We have a great supporting cast but no stars. Iowa generated 84 points this year. Tomasello and Stieber alone generated 50.5. I'm going to pause here so you can re-read that and go, "Holy s#**."

That's why Ohio State won with 5 AAs to Iowa's 6: they had 1,1, 2, 3, 5. We had 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7.

We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs! Message to Brands: we need finalists and champs!

Brands loves depth, and he loves to take chances on under-the-radar guys who have potential and a great attitude and embody the Brands lifestyle--but that and a buck get you a cup of coffee at the Coralville Hardees. Once in a blue moon you end up with a #75 Delgado (sorry to use him as an example), or the kid from WV who pinned Gilman. More often you end up with Kelly--great kid, hard worker, who contributed exactly 0 NCAA points during his career.

Stieber apparently said he really wanted to come to Iowa, but tOSU made him a better offer. We would've won NCAAs with Stieber--in 2 of the past 4 years. Easy to say in retrospect? Maybe. We could've recruited the Altons instead. (In fact, we recruited Dziea and Evans and Moore instead.) But...you're telling me that we didn't give the Stiebers full rides at least in part because we wanted to spread our money around on guys like Kelly? Okay. We finished 25 points back as a result, but...okay.

You know...it's just math. Add up the points you need to win, and add up how many we can get from a well-balanced team of guys who place 5th-6th-7th-8th. Guess what? We end up 25 points shy. Every year. "Darn it--happened again! We don't know why. Oh, well, try again."

I'm not going to comment specifically on Gross, Paddock, and Stoll--I want them to be NCAA champs, and I hope they are NCAA champs next year. Because that is what we need--guys who have a fighting shot at being champs as freshmen. Not 50-50 shots at AA-ing as juniors and seniors.

I expect Kemerer and Marinelli to be great. Flo has them at #11 and #13--not even top 10, and I'm more excited about them than I've been about any Iowa recruits in a long time. So I think we're on the right track--but we need more than 1 per year (Marinelli's a junior), and we need a top-5 P4P every year.

Here's an interesting idea no one has thought of before: Hall and Lee. I know, I know, we're Iowa. We don't need anybody. It's our way or the highway. Recruits come to us.

Okay, that's my closing-season rant. On that note, I've really enjoyed this season--some great matches, some great duals, and I really, really thought we might win it all this year. Only 25 points shy. Again. Sigh.

 

[Jaybird319]

Another significant point that is often over looked is where our studs are located vs a contending team vs another contending team. That's the difference in tournament vs dual scoring. Teams either redshirt wrestlers, move to another weight class or take their lumps and chances.

Less D1 wrestling teams vs 70s, 80s, & 90s. The field is more condensed among remain teams. I don't see any wrestling program capable of producing national titles like past IA teams in today's wrestling landscape.

Can't throw huge amount of scholly coin after wrestlers either. Just ask Jimmy how that worked out. The key has been landing quality regional wrestlers w a few studs sprinkled. And of course turning room guys into high place finishers or NC every 2-3 years help a lot. Just ask gable

 

[Jaybird319]

I agree w Spooners point. It was MN or O$U all last summer/fall/early season. It wasnt until after our Midland run did others really start thinking about IA contending at nationals. Hell, Iowa was ranked between 2-4 in the preseason polls. MN utter collapse this season is what I'll remember the most I think...... well that and Slaton, I mean Gilliman being cradled

 

[pablow]

Good post Tarp. You pretty much nailed it.

 

[artradley]

I gotta go with Tarp on this -- Pablow's OP is basically putting lipstick on a pig. You can talk circles around how well some of our guys have done, but the bottom line is we haven't won a NC in five years and haven't even come close. We aren't getting many stud recruits, and the ones we have gotten usually aren't panning out.

Being "in the conversation" every year is a by-product of having a dominant team for decades; it hasn't had anything to do with our actual chances of winning the NC. And all this talk of parity and it being impossible to be dominant these days seems a little ironic considering PSU just won four straight titles and looks to be situated to start another run next year.

We can and should have a better team.

 

[bnicolls]

Originally posted by sloehawk:

Originally posted by moug:
Top 10 recruits who have won titles in the last 5 years by HS graduation year.

2010- 1/10-granted he won 4 titles, but if you consider each of the 10 had 4 years to compete it's still 4/40
2011- 0/10
2012- 1/10- Tshirt
2013- 3/10- Cox, Martinez, Tomasello- Martinez seems the only one who I would say is a true front runner going into next year, while I thought the same about Cox this year and he finished 5th.
2014- 0/1- I believe Snyder is the only one to burn the RS- not enough of a sample for the class, but safe to assume he'll put up some good career totals for tOSU at NCAAs in his career.

What does this mean? Not real sure. Maybe these rankings just stink?

I've said all along I love what J'Den Cox CAN bring to the table, he's got all the ability in the world it appears, but he has never appeared to have the "want-to" every single time I've seen him wrestle, which isn't a lot, but it was consistent in the small sample size I witnessed. He's in that camp that one little misstep puts him on the back side real quick. I am elated that he and Jason Tsirtsis are no longer in the 4 Timer conversation, only due to their wrestling styles. They both seem like really good kids from afar, so appreciate that part of it, hate the style. And since they aren't Hawks, I hope they don't change their ways, I think both have far more to offer.

As far as the full-ride offers, I am on board to do just that, BUT it is not a predictor of future success. You CAN get burned if Stud of the Decade doesn't pan out. Choose very, very, carefully.

Yes, choose wisely. We thought 5 years ago the senior class had multiple NC's and team NC's in them. 5 years later, none and none and alot of scholly dough burned thru

 

[forcheyhawk]

I think this is great info and I don't disagree we need some studs that can win it all and add bonus points. I don't think it's as easy as it's made to seem. For instance, Mike Evans was the #4 overall guy at 184 coming out and I thought he was going to be that guy. Now granted he had a very solid career, but I don't think he was recruited to have a solid career. He was recruited to be the stud. Certainly the Alton twins were very highly ranked. What would you have done if Tom Brands took Jimmy Gulibon as the #3 ranked recruit and left Cory Clark hanging and Cory went somewhere and beat Jimmy like he's been doing?

Again, I'm not disagreeing with anything said here we definitely needs studs that can win multiple titles and rack up bonus points along the way. I'm just arguing that these studs are not as apparent as we all want to believe.

 

[Mountain Man Hawk]

Originally posted by moug:
Top 10 recruits who have won titles in the last 5 years by HS graduation year.

2010- 1/10-granted he won 4 titles, but if you consider each of the 10 had 4 years to compete it's still 4/40
2011- 0/10
2012- 1/10- Tshirt
2013- 3/10- Cox, Martinez, Tomasello- Martinez seems the only one who I would say is a true front runner going into next year, while I thought the same about Cox this year and he finished 5th.
2014- 0/1- I believe Snyder is the only one to burn the RS- not enough of a sample for the class, but safe to assume he'll put up some good career totals for tOSU at NCAAs in his career.

What does this mean? Not real sure. Maybe these rankings just stink?

I'm surprised more people haven't commented on this. Tarp's post makes a lot of sense but only if we can know in advance which recruits are going to pan out. It would be interesting to see the numbers going back further than 2010 but it seems that it's a bit of a crap shoot in picking which top recruit will pan out. Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember on this board a long time ago some criticism of Jim Zalesky's approach tying up too much recruiting $$ in a couple of wrestlers (like the older Tshirt for instance). From what I can tell there are a small handful of recruits like Metcalf or Taylor that everybody knows will pan out but they don't come around very often. Sort of like Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck in the NFL. But it seems like most years the #1 recruit is far from a sure thing and many years they don't end up performing much or at all better than the recruits we have already been getting. Again, sort of like the NFL where I could put together a long list of #1 draft choice QBs that don't end up amounting to much.

 

[Jackhawk87]

I think you have to choose carefully as well when giving out full scholarships. It seems as though the top HS guys that translate extremely well to the college scene not only have great technique and are in great shape, but also are great athletes with great strength, power, and explosiveness.

Just thinking of recent tOSU studs - Tomasello, BoJo, and Snyder - all have superior strength, power and explosiveness when compared to the vast majority of their opponents. They really look the part. Gulibon not so much. Altons - maybe a little, but not a great advantage (also injuries, etc held them back), Evans - not so much. Moore - not so much.

 

[DirtyJohns]

It's easy to say that we need that absolute stud every couple of years but we are now fighting for that stud with PSU, tOSU, OSU, Cornell, Mizzou, Minn and others. So you've got maybe 2 or 3 studs on average in each class and it's got to be the right personality fit to boot. It's tough sledding, especially when said recruits are typically reside in the home state of those schools we are battling. The Gable mystique is fading and these kids were not even born the last time Gable was coach.

I think that is one of the reasons Morningstar was hired because his personality is a bit different(understatement of the year) than that of the Brands and he can develop some of the necessary relationships with guys that may otherwise not give Brands a minute of their time. I think Metcalf is and will be even more of an asset for recruiting if we can keep him after his career is over.

Hall looks like a sure thing and a good fit to me and would absolutely be worthy of a full ride. We've got to put the full press on that kid. I don't know as much about Lee.

 

[augiehawk]

That is the first I have heard of Steiber wanting to come to Iowa, and if that is true, and he just got a better offer from Ohio St., then I think I will be sick.

I agree that we need to focus less on depth and try and bring in more top rated guys. The last couple of years, we have not had that guy that you can pencil in for 20 team points and a finalist at Nationals. When you rely on the depth approach, if you have a guy or two slip up at Nationals, you don't have that stud to replace their points.

I would like to see us bring in a guy as an assistant with a different style. More funk, turns, etc.. Perry would be great, but he is not leaving Illanoy for anything less than Terry's spot.

 

[Gusaford]

Many great posts here, including Tarp's. I would add Isaiah White of OPRF to the wish list.

 

[moug]

Originally posted by Mountain Man Hawk:

Originally posted by moug:
Top 10 recruits who have won titles in the last 5 years by HS graduation year.

2010- 1/10-granted he won 4 titles, but if you consider each of the 10 had 4 years to compete it's still 4/40
2011- 0/10
2012- 1/10- Tshirt
2013- 3/10- Cox, Martinez, Tomasello- Martinez seems the only one who I would say is a true front runner going into next year, while I thought the same about Cox this year and he finished 5th.
2014- 0/1- I believe Snyder is the only one to burn the RS- not enough of a sample for the class, but safe to assume he'll put up some good career totals for tOSU at NCAAs in his career.

What does this mean? Not real sure. Maybe these rankings just stink?

I'm surprised more people haven't commented on this. Tarp's post makes a lot of sense but only if we can know in advance which recruits are going to pan out. It would be interesting to see the numbers going back further than 2010 but it seems that it's a bit of a crap shoot in picking which top recruit will pan out. Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember on this board a long time ago some criticism of Jim Zalesky's approach tying up too much recruiting $$ in a couple of wrestlers (like the older Tshirt for instance). From what I can tell there are a small handful of recruits like Metcalf or Taylor that everybody knows will pan out but they don't come around very often. Sort of like Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck in the NFL. But it seems like most years the #1 recruit is far from a sure thing and many years they don't end up performing much or at all better than the recruits we have already been getting. Again, sort of like the NFL where I could put together a long list of #1 draft choice QBs that don't end up amounting to much.

There's a recruiting rewind tab for recruiting classes 2005-2009. It first lists all the top recruits and then has a career ranking of how they did in college. Again, I don't know if these rankings are any better or worse than Flo or Intermat etc, but they're the only one I've come across that seems to bear out which highly touted recruits pan out. I found it interesting (if nothing else) to check out although there is plenty room for debate in how they calculate their career points.

same site

 

[TarpHawk]

Fun With Stats:

In support of those who say P4P HS rankings don't matter: 3 of this year's NCAA champs were ranked below #50 in HS: Houdashelt was #53 in 2010, Gadson was #65 in 2010, and Dean was #73 in 2012.

However, in support of those who say P4P HS rankings do matter: 7 of this year's 10 champs were ranked in the top 25 P4P.

Every #1 P4P over the past 5 years placed among the top 4 at NCAAs this year:
Stieber #1 in 2010McIntosh #1 in 2011Tsirtsis #1 in 2012B Jordan #1 in 2013Snyder #1 in 2014Even Moisey, the unseeded and seemingly unheralded true freshman who made the finals at 133, was ranked #34 in 2014.

In short, while the correlation isn't precise, it's still pretty clear.

Now for more fun:

In the "One of These Things Is Not Like the Other" category:
2011 P4P rankings:
#53. Nat Brown
#55. Klapprodt
#62. C Medberry
#66. N Garrett

In the "Two of These Things Are Not Like the Other" category:
2010 P4P rankings:
#65. Gadson
#74. M Kelly
#75. Delgado
#79. Baldosaro
#81. C. Dardanes
#87. Schopp

So maybe we're choosing the wrong guys, or maybe we're just not developing them correctly. Choose your poison.

 

[Azchief32]

Originally posted by TarpHawk:
Those numbers mean we're going to continue to be 25 points shy of a team title unless we change our recruiting philosophy from getting 6-8 top-75 guys at partial scholly to 2-3 top-10 guys at full ride.

We have shown a consistent inability over the past several years to score 100 points at NCAAs (only 3 times in the past 8 years, and only once in the past 5). That means it's about us. We're doing something wrong. We're perennially 25 points shy, as we were this year.

Why? Because we don't send enough guys to the finals. We have a great supporting cast but no stars. Iowa generated 84 points this year. Tomasello and Stieber alone generated 50.5. I'm going to pause here so you can re-read that and go, "Holy s#**."

That's why Ohio State won with 5 AAs to Iowa's 6: they had 1,1, 2, 3, 5. We had 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7.

We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs. We need finalists and champs! Message to Brands: we need finalists and champs!

Brands loves depth, and he loves to take chances on under-the-radar guys who have potential and a great attitude and embody the Brands lifestyle--but that and a buck get you a cup of coffee at the Coralville Hardees. Once in a blue moon you end up with a #75 Delgado (sorry to use him as an example), or the kid from WV who pinned Gilman. More often you end up with Kelly--great kid, hard worker, who contributed exactly 0 NCAA points during his career.

Stieber apparently said he really wanted to come to Iowa, but tOSU made him a better offer. We would've won NCAAs with Stieber--in 2 of the past 4 years. Easy to say in retrospect? Maybe. We could've recruited the Altons instead. (In fact, we recruited Dziea and Evans and Moore instead.) But...you're telling me that we didn't give the Stiebers full rides at least in part because we wanted to spread our money around on guys like Kelly? Okay. We finished 25 points back as a result, but...okay.

You know...it's just math. Add up the points you need to win, and add up how many we can get from a well-balanced team of guys who place 5th-6th-7th-8th. Guess what? We end up 25 points shy. Every year. "Darn it--happened again! We don't know why. Oh, well, try again."

I'm not going to comment specifically on Gross, Paddock, and Stoll--I want them to be NCAA champs, and I hope they are NCAA champs next year. Because that is what we need--guys who have a fighting shot at being champs as freshmen. Not 50-50 shots at AA-ing as juniors and seniors.

I expect Kemerer and Marinelli to be great. Flo has them at #11 and #13--not even top 10, and I'm more excited about them than I've been about any Iowa recruits in a long time. So I think we're on the right track--but we need more than 1 per year (Marinelli's a junior), and we need a top-5 P4P every year.

Here's an interesting idea no one has thought of before: Hall and Lee. I know, I know, we're Iowa. We don't need anybody. It's our way or the highway. Recruits come to us.

Okay, that's my closing-season rant. On that note, I've really enjoyed this season--some great matches, some great duals, and I really, really thought we might win it all this year. Only 25 points shy. Again. Sigh.

Solid post Tarp but Striebler wins four and all of a sudden you are spelling his name wrong? Blatant disrespect.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Originally posted by DirtyJohns:
It's easy to say that we need that absolute stud every couple of years but we are now fighting for that stud with PSU, tOSU, OSU, Cornell, Mizzou, Minn and others. So you've got maybe 2 or 3 studs on average in each class and it's got to be the right personality fit to boot. It's tough sledding, especially when said recruits are typically reside in the home state of those schools we are battling. The Gable mystique is fading and these kids were not even born the last time Gable was coach.

I think that is one of the reasons Morningstar was hired because his personality is a bit different(understatement of the year) than that of the Brands and he can develop some of the necessary relationships with guys that may otherwise not give Brands a minute of their time. I think Metcalf is and will be even more of an asset for recruiting if we can keep him after his career is over.

Hall looks like a sure thing and a good fit to me and would absolutely be worthy of a full ride. We've got to put the full press on that kid. I don't know as much about Lee.

Good post. As for Lee, I'd say he's at least as tough as Hall, pound-for-pound. Kid is phenomenal. Landing those two studs would dramatically swing recruiting in our favor and set us up for a great run, considering the other studs who would be on board with them.