Do You Believe in Karl Marx or Adam Smith?

[West Dundee Hawkeye]

Karl Marx is the founder of communism and Adam Smith is the founder of capitalism. Who do you support?

Today the monthly trade numbers came out. The US had a $70 billion trade deficit. The 2nd biggest ever.

Trade Deficit

Just as fundamental to capitalism as the Law of Supply & Demand is Savings-Investment=Exports-Imports. If exports go up, the working class benefits. The only way to increase exports is to increase savings. The way to increase savings is to balance the budget and pay down debt.

Savings-Investment=Exports-Imports

None of the partisan Democrats who love spending or the partisan Republicans who love tax cuts want to hear this.

Truman & Clinton both Democrats balanced the budget 3 times each. Ike also balanced the budget 3 times.

Both parties are screwing the working class and nobody cares.

So again, who do you support? Karl Marx or Adam Smith?

 

[BrunoMars420]

I’m more of a Jim Jones guy myself

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

Both theories have their limitations and flaws.

How's that for a noncommittal answer OP?

 

[ConvenientParking]

I think they both were real.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Outside of arms and aircraft, the US does not really manufacture much. If we had the ability to use our own raw materials to manufacture big ticket items then we could flip this overnight.

In other news, the sexbot world is about to dawn and the US chemical industry has the ability to manufacture both the necessary plastics and latex.

Wink wink. Hint hint.

 

[IACub]

Outside of arms and aircraft, the US does not really manufacture much. If we had the ability to use our own raw materials to manufacture big ticket items then we could flip this overnight.

In other news, the sexbot world is about to dawn and the US chemical industry has the ability to manufacture both the necessary plastics and latex.

Wink wink. Hint hint.

And the sexbot cleaning industry should really take off. This could be a real gainful employment opportunity for some of you miscreants.

 

[mstp1992]

I believe in music.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Outside of arms and aircraft, the US does not really manufacture much. If we had the ability to use our own raw materials to manufacture big ticket items then we could flip this overnight.

In other news, the sexbot world is about to dawn and the US chemical industry has the ability to manufacture both the necessary plastics and latex.

Wink wink. Hint hint.

Not true. We trail China but lead the rest of the world as of 2018...

China leads the world in terms of manufacturing output, with over $2.01 trillion in output (see Table 1). This is followed by the United States ($1.867 trillion), Japan ($1.063 trillion), Germany ($700 billion), and South Korea ($372 billion).

Manufacturing constitutes 27 percent of China’s overall national output, which accounts for 20 percent of the world’s manufacturing output. In the United States, it represents 12 percent of the nation’s output and 18 percent of the world’s capacity. In Japan, manufacturing is 19 percent of the country’s national output and 10 percent of the world total. Overall, China, the United States, and Japan comprise 48 percent of the world’s manufacturing output.

 

[Huey Grey]

Oh yeah! I'm a big Marxist. I got a tattoo of it right above my butt.

 

[LuteHawk]

Sorry, I thought this thread was about the Marx brothers:
Groucho, Harpo, and Chico. They were comedians who
made some funny films.

 

[Finance85]

Adam Smith for those who are capable.

 

[SSG T]

Capitalism is good. Capitalism with no restrictions, limitations or oversight by government is as bad as Communism.

 

[Whatsgoingonwitgyouguys0190]

Adam Smith for those who are capable.

Yeah, too many coaching changes early on in his career so we didn’t see what he could really do until most people had written him off. Was still serviceable but some people still will look at that number one over all pick when judging his career.

 

[ft254]

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Stupid question and stupid concept from the wingnut sewer. This fixation with Karl Marx corresponded Fox and conservative media rantings, didn't it?

Did you ideate the theory? Was this a concept you discovered in a study group, or a reading, or a long held understanding of economics and history based on study?

I'll wager you, like most wingnuts simply regurgitate the right wing talking points of the moment.

If you want to see how personalities influence their audiences, and their intent, Google: Rush Limbaugh's 4 Columns of Deceit.

The right's playbook since 2012. If you think Karl Marx's 1890s shit was concerning, you need to go back to school.

 

[unsubstantiated]

I believe in Karl Malone

 

[dirtypool]

I believe in music.

View embedded media

 

[joelbc1]

Probably Smith because he understands human greed more than Marx in his economics. Neither is perfect. Neither is feasible. However, the human greed factor makes capitalism more palatable and realistic than communism and a state controlled and directed economy.

 

[BubsFinn]

I’ve seen The Cure on stage, so I know Adam Smith is real. I’ve never seen Marx, not even Richard.


or was that Larry Smith?

 

[West Dundee Hawkeye]

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Stupid question and stupid concept from the wingnut sewer. This fixation with Karl Marx corresponded Fox and conservative media rantings, didn't it?

Did you ideate the theory? Was this a concept you discovered in a study group, or a reading, or a long held understanding of economics and history based on study?

I'll wager you, like most wingnuts simply regurgitate the right wing talking points of the moment.

If you want to see how personalities influence their audiences, and their intent, Google: Rush Limbaugh's 4 Columns of Deceit.

The right's playbook since 2012. If you think Karl Marx's 1890s shit was concerning, you need to go back to school.

I don't watch Fox. I am not a Trumper. The right wingers disagree with me. I am in the middle with Truman, Ike & Clinton.

The working class is getting screwed. My wife is from Oelwein, Iowa and they wrote a book about it called Methland. The question is how do we help the people of Oelwein, Rockford, Detroit, etc?

Do you help the people of Oelwein with capitalism or state directed economics?

 

[NoleATL]

None of the partisan Democrats who love spending or the partisan Republicans who love tax cuts want to hear this.

What about partisan Republicans who love tax cuts AND spending?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Just as fundamental to capitalism as the Law of Supply & Demand is Savings-Investment=Exports-Imports. If exports go up, the working class benefits. The only way to increase exports is to increase savings. The way to increase savings is to balance the budget and pay down debt.

This is nonsense.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

So again, who do you support? Karl Marx or Adam Smith?

It's not a question of who you support.

Both were important thinkers who added to our understanding of economic and social relationships. Both were right about many things, and occasionally wrong, as well.

 

[ANYCHawk]

I believe in life after love

 

[mnole03]

I don’t believe in markets.
I just believe in me.

 

[Titus Andronicus]

I once rode by Adam Smith's grave in Edinburgh. I was on a hop-on-hop-off bus and the tour guide was making it a point to include Adam Smith references in the guided tour for my benefit. The graveyard was right along the Royal Mile. In hindsight, I feel a little guilty for not doing a "hop-off" and paying my respects.

Smith was one of the Scottish Enlightenment figures and a great man. His theories are proving to be sound even today, unlike the other guy who has inspired havoc, death, and mayhem the world over. Marx was right about a few things, but his ideas, when in the hands of cunning men, have morphed into evil at all turns.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Marx was right about a few things, but his ideas when in the hands of cunning men, have morphed into evil at all turns.

You could say the exact same thing about Smith.

I don't blame Robber Barons and wars on Smith any more than I blame Stalinism on Marx, but those evils did grow out of their respective sources.

 

[artradley]

Karl Marx is the founder of communism and Adam Smith is the founder of capitalism. Who do you support?

Today the monthly trade numbers came out. The US had a $70 billion trade deficit. The 2nd biggest ever.

Trade Deficit

Just as fundamental to capitalism as the Law of Supply & Demand is Savings-Investment=Exports-Imports. If exports go up, the working class benefits. The only way to increase exports is to increase savings. The way to increase savings is to balance the budget and pay down debt.

Savings-Investment=Exports-Imports

None of the partisan Democrats who love spending or the partisan Republicans who love tax cuts want to hear this.

Truman & Clinton both Democrats balanced the budget 3 times each. Ike also balanced the budget 3 times.

Both parties are screwing the working class and nobody cares.

So again, who do you support? Karl Marx or Adam Smith?

WTF? Have you had an economics course in your life?

 

[West Dundee Hawkeye]

This is nonsense.

If you don't save, you consume. Increased consumption leads to more debt. Excess debt has to be paid for. That is paid for through trade deficits.

The national debt in this country has exploded.

This has led to massive trade deficits.

 

[West Dundee Hawkeye]

WTF? Have you had an economics course in your life?

I have. What is your theory on why the trade deficit is so high which is resulting in a loss of manufacturing jobs which is causing inflation adjusted income to be stagnant?

 

[ft254]

WTF? Have you had an economics course in your life

Trade deficits are a given. We import more than we export because our economic model is structured that way.
Companies manufacture where they can afford to. That's capitalisms with a capital C.

We can punish countries for doing what capitalism rewards, and chisel away at the concept we champion, tor we can adapt our system to operate accordingly.

The Orange Turd's approach was to apply tariffs, which imposed an unnecessary tax on certain imported goods U.S. importers were forced to pay. In his undeveloped and warped mind he thought this a penalty imposed on the exporting country. I prefer to think he knew better, but was pulling bullshit on his mindless cult.

At least you didn't hear blowback from what's left of anyone with intelligence or balls from the Republican party.

NAFTA was a program to incorporate manufacturing, logistics, free trade, intellectual property guarantees. Manufacturing is gone. It will not be back, as wages will not balance, and robotics will replace assembly lines before assembly will be cost effective within our borders.

When I was in college in the 60's I theorized this situation and wondered why there was no concern. I thought then it was inevitable U.S. labor prices would force manufacturing outside our borders, and there would be a migration of company's assembly plants to take advantage of cheaper labor.

 

[West Dundee Hawkeye]

Trade deficits are a given. We import more than we export because our economic model is structured that way.
Companies manufacture where they can afford to. That's capitalisms with a capital C.

We can punish countries for doing what capitalism rewards, and chisel away at the concept we champion, tor we can adapt our system to operate accordingly.

The Orange Turd's approach was to apply tariffs, which imposed an unnecessary tax on certain imported goods U.S. importers were forced to pay. In his undeveloped and warped mind he thought this a penalty imposed on the exporting country. I prefer to think he knew better, but was pulling bullshit on his mindless cult.

At least you didn't hear blowback from what's left of anyone with intelligence or balls from the Republican party.

NAFTA was a program to incorporate manufacturing, logistics, free trade, intellectual property guarantees. Manufacturing is gone. It will not be back, as wages will not balance, and robotics will replace assembly lines before assembly will be cost effective within our borders.

When I was in college in the 60's I theorized this situation and wondered why there was no concern. I thought then it was inevitable U.S. labor prices would force manufacturing outside our borders, and there would be a migration of company's assembly plants to take advantage of cheaper labor.

Thanks for your reply.

I would respectfully disagree that our system is designed to have a 70% consumption rate and run trade deficits. For a century after the Civil War the US ran a trade surplus.

It is convenient for both political parties to give a big screw you to the working class. The Right is focused on the bottom line & the Left acts like the working class can all go and become pathologist. I keep thinking of the Plankton line from Sponge Bob, "I went to college."

You get at the heart of the issue when you said, "Companies manufacture where they can afford to." The main economic advantage of being a high savings country, is that cost are kept down.

For decades & decades, the US had deflation just as much as it had inflation in peace times. Wars were always inflationary.

 

[SoMplsHawkI]

Smith argued that by giving everyone freedom to produce and exchange goods as they pleased (free trade) and opening the markets up to domestic and foreign competition, people's natural self-interest would promote greater prosperity than with stringent government regulations.

Marx's most popular theory was 'historical materialism', arguing that history is the result of material conditions, rather than ideas. He believed that religion, morality, social structures and other things are all rooted in economics.

I believe that the excesses of Marx's theories were the result of the excesses of Smith's theories.

 

[thewop]

Smith's world is happier for more people. I'll take that.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Smith's world is happier for more people. I'll take that.

Smith's world was Venezuela before Chavez. Marx's world was Venezuela under Chevez.

God knows whose idea gave us Venezuela today, but they deserve to be shot.

 

[sober_teacher]

This isn’t a binary choice. We’ve seen at various times what happens when businesses operate without oversight. arguably, we’ve never seen Marx’s theories given serious applications. I disagree with his conclusions because he ignores human nature in his theory, but Communist China, the Soviet Union, and other “communist” countries out there would have Marx turning over in his grave to see what they did in his name.

 

[bladel]

Neither.

John Maynard Keynes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hawkeye_311]

Marxism helped collapse the Soviet Union and led to mass poverty.

Capitalism has created the most prosperous, powerful, free and uplifting country in the history of the human race.

 

[ft254]

Thanks for your reply.

I would respectfully disagree that our system is designed to have a 70% consumption rate and run trade deficits. For a century after the Civil War the US ran a trade surplus.

It is convenient for both political parties to give a big screw you to the working class. The Right is focused on the bottom line & the Left acts like the working class can all go and become pathologist. I keep thinking of the Plankton line from Sponge Bob, "I went to college."

You get at the heart of the issue when you said, "Companies manufacture where they can afford to." The main economic advantage of being a high savings country, is that cost are kept down.

For decades & decades, the US had deflation just as much as it had inflation in peace times. Wars were always inflationary.

We weren't building 4.5 billion dollar aircraft carriers, and multi billion dollar contracts for dud fighter planes We have remained in war time spending mode since the end of World War 2.

Before World War 1 we had virtually no standing army. Now we have troops stationed over the globe. We train troops and officers for what? We can't afford not to.

Ike's warning is more true now more than ever. We would fold and die if we didn't have the military industrial complex. Southern states economies would go away.

 

[Titanhawk2]

Karl Marx is the founder of communism and Adam Smith is the founder of capitalism. Who do you support?

Today the monthly trade numbers came out. The US had a $70 billion trade deficit. The 2nd biggest ever.

Trade Deficit

Just as fundamental to capitalism as the Law of Supply & Demand is Savings-Investment=Exports-Imports. If exports go up, the working class benefits. The only way to increase exports is to increase savings. The way to increase savings is to balance the budget and pay down debt.

Savings-Investment=Exports-Imports

None of the partisan Democrats who love spending or the partisan Republicans who love tax cuts want to hear this.

Truman & Clinton both Democrats balanced the budget 3 times each. Ike also balanced the budget 3 times.

Both parties are screwing the working class and nobody cares.

So again, who do you support? Karl Marx or Adam Smith?

You are saying that Communism is an economic theory?

 

[thewop]

Smith's world was Venezuela before Chavez. Marx's world was Venezuela under Chevez.

God knows whose idea gave us Venezuela today, but they deserve to be shot.

I spent enough time in Venezuela in the 90s to know it was an amazing, beautiful country with wonderful people and thriving tourism.

Not perfect by any stretch and certainly not America, but thank you for supporting my point.