Evelyn's Roundabout Path to Iowa City
- Thread starter 2432Hawk
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"Evelyn's final collegiate stop in Iowa City will be his fifth school since high school."
Actually, it will be his 3rd.
Actually, it will be his 3rd.
How can people proclaim they are not fans of transfers? Seriously, what does that mean? So tired of reading these threads. What exactly makes a transfer different than a traditional recruit? Oh they graduated already and have a year of eligibility left due to injuries or other issues? Maybe they found themselves playing for a different coach than they signed with or things just didn't work out as they had planned and they want a new venue. Clearly that is a red flag.
I think folks need to stop and reflect for a minute on how many transfers Fran has spawned while at Iowa before proclaiming they aren't a fan of transfers. Meyer, Ingram, Fleming, Williams, Ellingson, Wagner, Hutton, Moss, Dailey, Dickerson, Hubbard. After reflecting on this, take a few more minutes and think of the impact transfers have had on the football team. Easley, Sargent, Groeneweg, Butler, etc. clearly all bad eggs who destroyed the chemistry of the team and shouldn't have been brought in.
Fran should have removed his head from the sand years ago and leveraged transfers when recruiting failed (which has been often). If you are holding your breath for Foster + 1-2 other better prospects to sign with Fran, I would exhale. If any program needs to be adept at utilizing transfers it's Iowa hoops IMO.
I think folks need to stop and reflect for a minute on how many transfers Fran has spawned while at Iowa before proclaiming they aren't a fan of transfers. Meyer, Ingram, Fleming, Williams, Ellingson, Wagner, Hutton, Moss, Dailey, Dickerson, Hubbard. After reflecting on this, take a few more minutes and think of the impact transfers have had on the football team. Easley, Sargent, Groeneweg, Butler, etc. clearly all bad eggs who destroyed the chemistry of the team and shouldn't have been brought in.
Fran should have removed his head from the sand years ago and leveraged transfers when recruiting failed (which has been often). If you are holding your breath for Foster + 1-2 other better prospects to sign with Fran, I would exhale. If any program needs to be adept at utilizing transfers it's Iowa hoops IMO.
Wow. At four something in the morning, maybe you should switch to decaf.
Seems like a great addition to me. Experienced, combo guard, who seems to already be liked and respected by teammates. Pretty much exactly what we needed with JBo down and rookie guards otherwise.Things didn't work out for him at Nebraska for some reason, but the other transfers seem to be looking to step up.
Taking transfers absolutely needs to be part of the equation for Iowa. I think Fran could be doing a lot more in that area. Hopefully he'll have a good experience with Bakari and it will encourage him to look harder at grad transfers in the future.
I'll take a crack at answering your question. Everything I'm about to say is, of course, based on generalities because each individual player under consideration should be considered on their individual merits. But as a statistical class transfers generally present a greater degree of risk than a HS recruit.
First, you cannot simply group all types of transfers together. JUCO players were either unable or unready for D1 ball-which of course includes the academic component. A lot of kids from large urban school districts, through no real fault of the player, simply cannot perform academically because their schools don't actually educate (e.g. Baltimore). Hell, even in here in DSM a lot of kids from the DM schools go to DMACC to attain sufficient math and reading skills necessary for success at the U of I, UNI and Iowa A&T.
But the mere fact that the JUCO kids weren't ready for D1 ball means there was some weakness or inferiority that most other P5 recruits did not have. That's a risk factor that a kid that can get eligible and maybe earn playing time as a freshman does not present. It doesn't mean they can't play, or can't read or have some major social problem but the JUCO route increases the probability of one or more of those problems. Of course, a player in JUCO is recruited or, in many cases placed, in a junior college with the specific purpose of leaving after no more than two seasons, and one if possible.
The kid who transfers from one D1 school to another presents a different group of risk factors. The act of transferring itself raises a question about a player's ability to honor a commitment and loyalty to the coach and players to whom he/she originally committed. Now that's not the worst character trait a person can possess but its not a good character trait either. A transferring player has already demonstrated they cannot or did not wish to get along at their original school. Think Alex Thompson or that Peterson kid in Alford's last class or Luke Recker. Those guys are team cancers. Malcontents that really couldn't get along anywhere. That risk inheres in transfers. We all know people that float from job to job because they just cannot get along anywhere. The transferring player is more rather than less likely to be the younger version of that person.
The grad transfer is almost an entirely different animal. There's not much risk associated with a grad transfer. They've already demonstrated that they are sufficiently good enough students to remain eligible for three prior seasons. They've shown they're sufficiently smart to get a GRE score that qualifies them for grad school and sufficient academic success to be admitted to grad school. They've showed an ability to honor their commitment to the school that they first attended by playing until graduation. You can't really ask more than that from an 18 year old.
Your basketball examples aren't helpful to your argument. Have any of those guys been significant contributors elsewhere? Wags isn't even playing the same sport. I guess Brady had a good year for Drake. Pat Ingram washed out after a couple of seasons at Idaho. Fleming averages less than 4 ppg in the Sun Belt. Brandon Hutton is about the same in the Southland conference. Kyle Meyer never got over like 2.5 ppg at Houston. Some of those guys never even finished a four year career. Hubbard ended up OK but he was kicked out of school, before he was actually enrolled, due to bad deportment (e.g. the social problem risk with JUCOs and transfers). Christian Williams is OK and Isaiah and Maishe will probably be OK. Trey Dickerson is the exact example of what I'm describing. He played at a JUCO and three different schools in three years of varsity D1 ball; not really the quintessential picture of stability.
The larger point for which I assume you listed those guys was to demonstrate that transfers can help programs but the guys you named are really just the opposite; especially the ones that washed out before playing a fourth season.
The football guys you named were either JUCOs or grad transfers. I do think KF has been very cagey with the small number of transfers, JUCOS and grad students he's brought in.
Transfers are riskier than guys that come to a school and play out their eligibility or graduate in 3 or 4 years. That's basically why I'm not a fan of transfers, or perhaps more specifically a fan of relying on transfers as a key part of recruiting strategy at Iowa.
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Today is different than 15-20 years ago. If you think Recker or Jeff Peterson were cancers, I don't know what to tell you. Recker left Indiana at the end of the Knight era, transferred to Arizona then transferred again after being in a car accident that nearly killed he and his girlfriend at the time. How does that make him a cancer? Jeff Peterson left Iowa because Lickliter was a train wreck. By that logic, Tony Freeman, Jake Kelley, and all the other decent players who left under Lickliter also had bad character. Hogwash, they were playing for a dumpster fire of a coach. Gatens and Eric May would have been out the door as well had Barta not pulled the plug on Lickliter.
Peterson went on to get his master's degree from Florida State and is now the assistant GM for the Brooklyn Nets. Dude is of the highest character and a huge success.
Yes, if a guy was kicked off his previous team for character or other issues, there is high risk associated with that transfer. But most of the time, a guy just wants to play or has a clash with the coach. It doesn't make them bad people. Coaches' character is not questioned when they leave and take another job while still under contract with their current school. Everyone understands that "they are doing what is best for them." Why doesn't the same apply to players? >
Great points. Here's a link to a story about Andre Woolridge and a mention of his transfer.
https://dataomaha.com/neb100/player/87
Woolridge was on the All-Big Eight Freshman Team at Nebraska, but transferred to Iowa for his final three seasons.
He chose Iowa partly out of loyalty. The Hawkeyes had sent him his first college recruiting letter, when he was a ninth-grader playing on the Benson varsity. When Woolridge signed with Nebraska, a Hawkeye assistant called and congratulated him.
"Then he said, 'When they do you wrong, we'll still take you.' I remembered that," Woolridge said.
Woolridge was one of the best Iowa guards of the last quarter century. Got robbed for B1G POY. Sure glad the staff at that time was open to his transfer.
Thanks for bringing that up. One of the greatest Hawkeyes of the last 25 years was a transfer.
1. You are ignoring the first sentence of my response to your query. Each player has to be evaluated on his/her own merits because statistical norms aren't individual certainties. Put another way, probabilities do not guarantee outcomes. Hence, I can give you a David Palmer or Trey Dickerson for every Andre Woolridge or Matt Bullard.
2. So all those media reports and rumors about Recker and Evans causing team problems that resulted in both players being benched near the end of their senior seasons were wrong? Alford just benched the two biggest "stars" on the team for some other reason that has remained concealed for 17 years? Recker also got benched at Indiana for attention and attitude issues. Committed, e.g. gave his word, to three different coaches. We simply disagree about Recker.
3. Jeff Peterson didn't like starting in a slow set offense in the Big Ten so he transferred to an up tempo offense at Arkansas in the SEC. He apparently didn't like that either so he transferred yet a third time to Georgetown. At every stop there were complaints about his attitude, and perhaps not his fault, his helicopter father. I think 3 transfers in 4 seasons bespeaks a certain level of instability. Someone that always see the greener grass might be quite good at things, smart as hell, but their departures adversely affect the people they leave behind, to a greater or lesser extent of course. Jeff chose a good profession because player personnel guys move around a lot.
4. Tony Freeman. Another dad and lad duo. I can understand why a kid might want to move on to a faster offense but Freeman rebelled on the court. He refused to run the plays the coach called, and then bragged about it after the season. You might not like Lick personally, and history's verdict on the Lick years is pretty incontrovertible, but the players can never be allowed to run the team. Freeman was told to leave. Tony Freeman, and his father, is/are the very definition of a team cancer. Plus, didn't Tony transfer down to a Mo Valley team? Not a lot of major conference interest in Tony upon his decision to leave Iowa.
5. Of course I understand that the basketball world has changed in the last 20 years. But human nature hasn't changed in 10,000 generations. A reasonably free and reasonably organized society requires a very delicate balance of self gratification and communal interest. I think that balance has tipped in an unhealthy direction when it comes to college athletics.
6. Iowa has some unique recruiting limitations that particularly impact transfers. The people that run the U of Iowa have a strong sentiment that athletes are the archetypal toxically masculine patriarchs. Very hard to bring in anyone with any kind of controversy. I'm sure you would at least agree that many transfers leave under some kind of clouded circumstance. The coaches probably know the parameters under which they operate and realize its pointless to even look at a lot of guys that are open to other universities with a less sensitive gender studies management philosophy.
7. Current practical needs hasn't really created a significant need for transfers. By the time graduation and transfers out emptied two entire recruiting classes McC turned the roster around with younger and far better players at every position. Now, why we had two years that produced one Big Ten caliber player is a different topic altogether, and one on which we may have more agreement.
I think you'd see more stability on campus if a college couldn't offer a scholly until after the start of a player's senior year of HS. Kids are being pushed and manipulated by recruiting pressures and plans at ever younger ages. A lot of stars in the eyes of a 14 year old with Krzyzewski in his living room. Wouldn't mind seeing a ban on contact until junior year starts as well. Eliminate the concept of a waiver, applied in what appears to be a fairly arbitrary and capricious manner, and in a way that does not benefit Iowa (our self interest angle) at best anyway, so every potential transfer knows they're not playing right away. Maybe discourage rash decisions, cuz young adults aren't always known for careful and deliberate decision making.
I am not saying that all transfers are bad people or damage every team they touch. The very Iowa transfers out you cited, indeed all Iowa transfers out in the last 15-20 years, prove the general proposition, which is all I'm saying: players that transfer are more rather than less likely to disappoint, for a variety of reasons, and hence should be carefully screened. That even includes the Lick years where some pretty decent players fleeing a floundering coaching situation would have a disproportionate upward direction in transfer career results.
1) So what? No one said every transfer works out, nor that they have to. If you get to claim David Palmer as proof that transfers don't work, then Fleming, Ingram, et al are proof that recruiting high schoolers don't work. The point is that each kid needs to be evaluated on their merits. You were the one that stated that there are inherent issues with transfers because they are leaving their previous school.
2) Media rumors. Wow. That team was a disaster for a whole host of reasons. Could have been due to an inexperienced coach who didn't handle adversity well?
3) No proof of his lack of character other than your assertion that going to 3 schools is proof of that. He was a grad transfer who finished at Florida State and got his master's degree. What the hell? This makes him a bad person? He spent 7 seasons in the Atlanta Hawks front office before being named to an assistant GM position with the Nets. I don't even know how or why you are trying to denigrate a guy who has risen to assistant GM at his age. He'll likely be running a NBA team soon. But yes, he's a bad guy.
4) Again, blaming anyone who jumped ship during the Lickliter years is silly. Lickliter was the worst P5 coaching hire in probably the last 30 years anywhere.
5) We'll disagree. That's fine in a free society.
6) Iowa's mantra is Win, Graduate, Do it Right, so yes there is an expectation that teams recruit guys of good character. I have no idea what the comment about archetypal masculine patriarchs has anything to do with this. The UI admin is absolutely looney tunes on some things, but it's not like Iowa has Northwestern's academic requirements.
7) Maybe. I'd argue Iowa was a good guard short of being a really good team last year, but that's up to interpretation.
To make a judgement on whether transfers are a good or bad thing overall, one would need to categorize all the high school players against all the transfers (JUCO and otherwise). My guess is that the percentages would be pretty equal in terms of who were productive players (or not) and who weren't productive and/or a problem.
Please tell me more about Jeff's attitude issues during his time at Georgetown. I am sure a problem kid like him would have a lot of stories written about him to back up your assertions.
Dude that is far too long ago to try and find the tweets or other internet chatter. You could probably troll the archives here and find something on it.
Three schools in four years defines some kind of problem finding a place to fit in, apparently unsuccessfully.
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2. There were far more than media rumors at the time. Far more. I was working the fund raising circuit and people who know talk at those kinds of parties. When you the same thing from a whole lot of people in a position to know what they are talking about its probably true. They weren't mere rumors. He was benched for Christ's sake after a crescendo of complaints about the double standard of conduct both in practice and games, the wild gunning, which is at least partially understandable because if Reggie got the ball it wasn't coming back out again. What's your theory for the leading scorer being benched for something other than injury, by two coaches at two programs?
4. That's a fair point and I think I recognized a special circumstance. But, as in Freeman's case it was outright insubordination and you know that no coach can tolerate that, nor is that in anyway a sign of quality character. You don't like the coach, leave at the end of the season but don't be disruptive and openly disrespectful, right? How does Lick explain Peterson's transfer from Arkansas, where he started on an up tempo team.
6. It has this to do with it. Its not just an unwillingness to waive academic standards its an unwillingness to allow any players with any kind of blemished past, especially if it has to do with some kind of me too accusation. Marcus Coker absolutely closed that door hard. The Pierre Pierce and Tyler Smith recruits caused a lot of lasting damage to the coaches that followed. I have a lot of first hand personal knowledge on this subject, by virtue of my previous political activities. I don't think the average Iowa fan realizes what a huge load this particular oddity has on recruiting. I used the very words looney toons in one rather tense discussion of this very issue. Between Dr. Davis bringing in a couple of kids late in his career that maybe couldn't read, Alford and his pirates and the Robinson, Wegher Coker trifecta in football Iowa coaches are really cut off from a enough recruits that it has an overall negative effect. Its completely unreasonable. Let the coaches gamble on a handful of kids that could maybe become better socialized if they were exposed to Iowa nice. If they mess up, then show 'em the door, but at least give the coaches more latitude.
I might add, I'm guessing by the third school Jeff's status on the team was not sufficiently significant to really earn much media attention of any kind.
I wish he would have remained at Iowa. The kid was decent and getting better.
You know, one of the few head scratchers I'd really like to know is how Lick came from a program where the players loved him to one where practically every recruit washed out or left Iowa because they couldn't stand him.
The guys at Butler didn't like him.
And I guarantee you not one person at or from Georgetown would ever say Jeff was any sort of trouble in their practices or games for them.
Well you're right, but in an immaterial way; typically known as a distinction without a difference. I confused FSU and Georgetown. That doesn't change the material fact, 3 transfers in 4 years and complaints at all three schools. Indeed that fact of three transfers in 4 years is a kind of res ipsa loquitur proof that the guy was, at the very least, always looking for personally greener pastures and unconcerned with the people that he left behind.
Here's how that played out at Iowa. Lickliter recruited a point guard, Cully Payne, as Peterson's reserve and ultimate replacement. Peterson transferred after most recruiting was complete. That left Iowa with two point guards, a true freshmen starter and a former walk red shirt, John Lickliter (and I think we'll all agree that L'il Lick was not really a Big Ten caliber player and was probably never intended for anything more than mop up duty). So the transfer might have been great for Peterson, although obviously he was discontented at Arkansas as well, but it really shit on Iowa and left the Hawks in a really bad situation. That's exactly what I mean about transfers leaving damage in their wake.
Beyond the ten minutes scanning a couple of Big searches, going into media and chat room archives from 7 years ago is just too much effort. Here's a site that kind of proves the point....frustrated at Iowa but likes the fit at Arkansas, except he jumped ship on Arkansas faster than he jumped ship at Iowa. Plus, he trashed Iowa on the way out.
https://scottdo.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/peterson-says-transfer-is-about-fit/
Pretty hard to blame Lickliter for Peterson's inability to get along at Arkansas. I guess we'll never know about his FSU transfer potential because Peterson just ran out of eligibility and had to graduate from somewhere.
Jeff was never known as a problem when he was at Iowa. You are just completely making stuff up...unless you are claiming to have inside sources at Arkansas and Florida State.
You have proven repeatedly to be a tinfoil-hat wearing conspiracy cook on this board and this is just more evidence to that fact.
Yeah, looks like he was a real problem ...
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...state-ncaa-tournament-031-20120316-story.html
After his sophomore year at Iowa, Peterson decided to transfer to Arkansas so that he could study business and marketing. But with a lone successful season at Arkansas behind him, Peterson was at a personal crossroads. He had another year of playing eligibility remaining and his undergraduate studies were behind him.
What was he going to do next?
He was going to attend Florida State University and pursue a Master's degree in Business.
"After I got my release, I sat down and looked at a few schools to pursue my Master's degree," Peterson said. "Florida State really caught my eye and it was just the perfect fit."
Since Peterson got to Tallahassee, he has been a bit of a coach's dream. He became the sixth senior on the team and has done everything that's been asked of him.
"I'm so happy for him," FSU coach Leonard Hamilton said. "He's been through school for (five) years now, and for him to get this opportunity to go through the NCAA tournament, that's tremendous for him. He's going to enjoy this."
You talking about this site, or can we take one of our president's posts.
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