Fran Climbing the ladder of Best Iowa Coach ever?
- Thread starter Franisdaman
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13 years as Iowa's head coach, 9 years in the tournament, never lost a first round game.
Was he fading at the end? Sure, but Iowa was a perennial tournament team for a majority of his years and always won at least a game in the tournament.
Bucky stands at the top of the ladder with 2 Final Four
appearances in his brief career at Iowa.
Lute was able to get the Hawkeyes to 1 Final Four.
before he departed for Arizona.
If the NCAA Tournament is the gold standard by which
we judge Hawkeye Basketball coaches, then Bucky and
Lute stand alone.
appearances in his brief career at Iowa.
Lute was able to get the Hawkeyes to 1 Final Four.
before he departed for Arizona.
If the NCAA Tournament is the gold standard by which
we judge Hawkeye Basketball coaches, then Bucky and
Lute stand alone.
Davis could Coach, Raveling could recruit!
Davis heydays were his first 3 years with Raveling's recruits for the most part...the next 10 were OK his last 5 were somewhat similar to Frans' last 4 years..in terms of B1G & NCAA..
Unfortunately, George Raveling was ahead of his time,
and did not wear suit and tie on the coaching sidelines.
He was unfairly contrasted with the well-groomed and
best-dressed Lute Olson As far as coaching ability,
Raveling lacked the skill set to get his A plus recruits to
win a lot of games..
and did not wear suit and tie on the coaching sidelines.
He was unfairly contrasted with the well-groomed and
best-dressed Lute Olson As far as coaching ability,
Raveling lacked the skill set to get his A plus recruits to
win a lot of games..
Davis' B10 record in his first four years:
14-4
12-6
10-8
4-14
In today's climate, he might not get a fifth year.
Exactly - we are back to Davis levels - 17 years later.
Davis' last 5 years had three tournament appearances, 3 first round wins. Other two years were 21-12 and 20-11.
As others have said Fran needs the next step - a second weekend in the tourney and the occasional sniff (top 3) of a Big 10 finish.
I think Fran's doing great and I'm glad Iowa has him, but he has a little more to do to be in the upper echelon of Hawk greats. He's brought Iowa back from the abyss - that by itself is an awesome achievement, now he needs to continue this run of tournament appearances and victory's.
Taking a rebuilding year, freshman laden team deep into the Big 10 tourney and into the NCAA's would also be huge in cementing his legacy!
Way too early for the coronation. Fran's done a good job just getting us to average after the Lick disaster. However, five years in, our hope should be that we are better than a 7 or 8 seed with somewhat of a history of late season fading. This exciting four game run with a young, fun team is probably not the best time to decide who is our best coach ever. As others have noted, I think he has a lot to accomplish to be in the mix with O'Connor, Miller and Olson.
"A perennial tournament team for a majority of his years..."
What even IS THAT?
Go back and look at the post I quoted. The Dude said he had a problem with a program that had to rebuild with young guys. We're supposed to go to the NCAA Tourney EVERY year. And on top of that win the first game EVERY year.
You seriously think that's reasonable and want to use Dr. Tom as an example? I got two things for you to explain. 93/94, 11-16 and 89/90, 12-16. Cripes I wasn't slamming Dr. Tom, but I'm not going to contemplate the kind of cherry picking it takes to claim Davis did something that he didn't!
And as to $%^##%% Wisconsin!?!?!?
Even in their incredible run (gotta measure up to that..but wait for it...) EIGHTEEN years straight, through three coaches, they've been to the NCAA Tournament. BUT, that includes four first round losses!
They don't even measure up!
So yeah, I disagree with the notion that Iowa must make the NCAA Tournament every year, and I especially think it's nuts to expect them to win the first game every year.
Freagin' nuts!
We have finished strong to ridiculously strong in 3 of the last 5 years.
Coaches at iowa are allowed to have down years that result in nearly making (or possibly making) the tournament.
Wisconsin sucked for 70 years before getting good and they will suck again.
Now now...don't let facts get in the way of a good story. By my count, under McCaffery Iowa has won four more games in the second half of the Big Ten regular season than they have in the first half.
Let's keep that our little secret and let fans think Iowa gets worse as the year goes on.
Fran gets us to a final four and he is in the conversation.
Davis' first 4 years might've been the most loaded 4 year stretch in BIG 10 bball history considering Indiana and Michigan's National Championships plus the Flyin' Illini and just great talent all around the league in those years. Davis had a lot of bad luck over the years; Bullard's health, Ray Thompson's eligibility and transfer, Street, Jeff Walker. Lafrenz, etc.
Iowa basketball has always been about the coulda and shoulda going way back to that Connie The Hawk Hawkins should never have been ruled ineligible and should've been the iconic player for our school. Bill Russell should not have been able to goaltend, Best Iowa team edged at buzzer by Artis Gilmore's Jacksonville team. Ronnie Lester shouldn't have been hurt as Iowa beat's Lville and UCLA with healthy Lester, 3 OT loss to MN for BIG title in '82 also Jim Bain call same year, shouldn't have lost a 17 pt lead to UNLV in '87 elite 8.
It would be great to erase all that and have Fran make Iowa big winners with conference titles, a final four or a few and compete for a NC. I have great faith in Fran and he's gonna do it or bust his ass trying.
"A perennial tournament team for a majority of his years..."
What even IS THAT?
Go back and look at the post I quoted. The Dude said he had a problem with a program that had to rebuild with young guys. We're supposed to go to the NCAA Tourney EVERY year. And on top of that win the first game EVERY year.
You seriously think that's reasonable and want to use Dr. Tom as an example? I got two things for you to explain. 93/94, 11-16 and 89/90, 12-16. Cripes I wasn't slamming Dr. Tom, but I'm not going to contemplate the kind of cherry picking it takes to claim Davis did something that he didn't!
And as to $%^##%% Wisconsin!?!?!?
Even in their incredible run (gotta measure up to that..but wait for it...) EIGHTEEN years straight, through three coaches, they've been to the NCAA Tournament. BUT, that includes four first round losses!
They don't even measure up!
So yeah, I disagree with the notion that Iowa must make the NCAA Tournament every year, and I especially think it's nuts to expect them to win the first game every year.
Freagin' nuts!
You're right - perennial and majority make no sense together, my bad
what I should have said was that we were close to doing that under Davis. It wasn't every year but it was close, and two of the four years they didn't make the tourney, they had a bubble-type record.Look, the OP is asking if Fran is climbing up the ladder of being the best Iowa coach EVER. I'm simply stating that right now Fran has Iowa back to Davis-type levels.
I'm not stating Davis is the best but his overall record is pretty impressive, even with the two crap years you pointed out.
Everyone loves to say "Davis had it easy with Raveling recruits" - but look at idiots like Crean, always doing less with more. He still had to coach that talent and instill a system that utilized that talent.
I see no reason Iowa couldn't be a perennial 20 win team like Wisconsin that makes the tournament damn near every year and occasionally make a run to the final four.
My only point is that if Fran can do that I would consider him not just one of the best Iowa coaches, but the best, which is kinda what I thought the OP was all about - what would it take for Fran to be considered one of, if not the, best Iowa coaches.
you are forgetting one thing...(Tom Davis took over a program stacked with talent)...he could not maintain..his Elite 8 & 1 of his 2 Sweet 16's were in his first 2 years. In 10 years he was barely over .500 in the Big Ten...that's 10...years. Not exactly great.
And ...history will show if you could finish 500 or more in the Big Ten in the 90's..you were pretty much in the NCAA...not so in todays environment.
We all know where the program was when Fran got here (compared to Davis)..I do believe Fran's recruiting efforts (are a little different than Dr. Tom)...and better.
We have not had a Big 10 season title since 1979 and that was a 3 way share.
Final 4...1980
Elite 8...1987
Sweet 16 ...1999
BTT title...2006
Have no idea where Fran ends up in his time...but IMO...this is the best shape (from a talent standpoint, from a recruiting standpoint, from a off the court issues standpoint, from an academic standpoint) Iowa BB has been in for a long long time..
You're right - perennial and majority make no sense together, my bad
Look, the OP is asking if Fran is climbing up the ladder of being the best Iowa coach EVER. I'm simply stating that right now Fran has Iowa back to Davis-type levels.
I'm not stating Davis is the best but his overall record is pretty impressive, even with the two crap years you pointed out.
Everyone loves to say "Davis had it easy with Raveling recruits" - but look at idiots like Crean, always doing less with more. He still had to coach that talent and instill a system that utilized that talent.
I see no reason Iowa couldn't be a perennial 20 win team like Wisconsin that makes the tournament damn near every year and occasionally make a run to the final four.
My only point is that if Fran can do that I would consider him not just one of the best Iowa coaches, but the best, which is kinda what I thought the OP was all about - what would it take for Fran to be considered one of, if not the, best Iowa coaches.
...........so back to my point...........which had nothing to do with Davis....A guy says we need to go to the NCAA Tourney every year and win the first game. I disagree.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1958/04/23/page/57/article/iowa-basket-coach-killed-in-car-crash
I think this guy may be or should have gone down as our greatest coach ever. Lost at the young age of 44.
Davis inherited 9 future NBA players that included what would become Iowa's top 3 all time scorers and he consistently had poorer results. He had the players to more than compete in the Big Ten regardless of who competitive some say it was. Look at what Fran did this year with one senior and a bunch of freshman as compared to what Davis did with Iowa's top three career scorers on the same team. Oh, he won just as many Big Ten games as Davis did that year! Take away his first three years and Alford's first three years and Alford had just as good of numbers. Fran is as good a coach as we can hope for given our history. Most of the former great Iowa coaches had their best years after they left Iowa and that includes Lute, Miller and Alford. Those who make the excuses that Davis had bad luck seem to forget that he was the coach regardless and it was not bad luck that resulted in us losing to UNLV.
Also and People may disagree but Alford was a very inconsistent recruiter. He had some dudds for sure. All coaches do at some point, but more times than not, he did not have very deep rosters after the 7th or 8th guy in many years.
I used to shake my head at some of the guys he brought on campus.
Fran is not even close to being the best Iowa coach of all time. Not even in the discussion yet. He inherited a disaster and his teams are competitive and getting better but Fran has a whole lot to prove. He has not achieved as much as Bucky, Ralph, Lute, Dr. Tom, Alford or Pops. The needle is sure pointing up but as of today Fran is not close to the GOAT at Iowa.
Top 3 I agree with. Slide Harrison and Davis to 4/5, Fran 6 then Berry, Scheuerman and Alford.
The only thing Alford has on Fran is BTTs and I couldn't care less about those. It would take 10 BTTs to compare to even 1 regular season title.
Alford also coached during a really down period for the B10. Under Fran, only the last two years have been similar to the competitive level of the B10 under Alford.
Yeah it seems that folks swing to either extreme with Davis. He was either the best thing ever and he had Iowa in the NCAA tournament ever year (which is just not true) or he was bad, with no middle ground. Things really could have changed had they not lost the halftime lead against UNLV. That would have been Iowa's second Final Four appearance of the 1980s, which puts a program in some high cotton.
Davis did have some bad luck. Street's death impacted both that year he died (Iowa ended up losing in the second round, but with Street Iowa was a legitimate Top 15 team), as well as the year after. With Street, Winters and a freshman Settles, Iowa likely makes the NCAA tournament Street's senior year. That said, the subsequent years the recruiting just wasn't good enough to challenge in the Big 10 playing the pressing style.
Davis did deserve better than how Iowa handled the end of his tenure. Either fire the guy, or extend his contract. But don't let him coach out the final year of his contract and tell him it won't be renewed, The program ended up looking stupid as the team went to the Sweet 16. The story should have been about Iowa making its first Sweet 16 in a decade. But instead it was this weirdness as Davis wasn't retiring but his contract just wasn't being renewed. Program couldn't capitalize on the momentum of a Sweet 16 appearance as they lost a full year of recruiting because no player is going to commit to a school where it's not known who the coach is the following year. At places like Iowa, such idiotic decisions hurt the program for years to come. And it did.
The rude dismissal of Coach Tom Davis was bad
public relations for Iowa Hawkeyes. They went with
a young glamor boy in Steve Alford and let an old
wrinkled man out the back door. The hiring of Alford
was a shot in the dark which never advanced the
cause of Hawkeye basketball. Some people thought
that Steve Alford was the second coming of Lute Olson.
In fact, it was never even close.
public relations for Iowa Hawkeyes. They went with
a young glamor boy in Steve Alford and let an old
wrinkled man out the back door. The hiring of Alford
was a shot in the dark which never advanced the
cause of Hawkeye basketball. Some people thought
that Steve Alford was the second coming of Lute Olson.
In fact, it was never even close.
Just think where Iowa basketball would be if Bucky hadn't died in the car wreck. Agree with your assessment. I think Fran will end up ahead of Davis at a minimum. Hopefully, he makes it to Lute's level. Very possible.
however...lets remember the NCAA tournament did not expand to include non-champions til the late 70's...in fact the 1980 Final 4 team would not have even been in the Tournament but a few years previously.
Ralph Miller won "2" Big Ten titles yet he was only awarded one NCAA Tournament bid...based on their record & their "big wins"...there is no doubt his 1965, 1966, 1967 & 1968 teams would have been invited. Then who knows how far they would have gone.
The NCAA Gold Standard was not standard for all coaches.
I don't think I've ever heard the story as to why Ralph Miller left Iowa. Was it simply the turmoil in the athletic department around that time?
there were some who also felt that Dr. Tom had not raised the program more in line with his first 3 years & the program had sort of leveled..in his last 10 years. Good teams..very competitive..some terrifc wins but just not quite good enough to go further.
So the hiring of Steve Alford was with the thought "raising the program to the next level"...we all know other than 3 really good runs in the BTT (2001 & 2006 BTT Champions & a runnerup in 2002)...the program actually slipped in terms of NCAA bids & certainly Big Ten wins in the regular season.
I really like what Fran has been able to accomplish the last 5 years..but I also believe he has the program as stable as its has been since the Olson days' of 79-83..it will be really interesting to follow Iowa BB going forward.
couple things I know...it wasn't an easy decision on his part..in fact a few days before he accepted the offer from Oregon State it was reported he actually told them to remove his name...a few days later he changed his mind. So he was going back & forth.
There was some internal issues with Evy & FB coach Ray Nagel..some thought Ralph was tired of it. I would say this also...I believe had Evy had his act together he could have easily convinced Ralph to stay...honestly I don't think he gave a crap if Ralph left or stayed.
the Iowa winters were also brought up as a reason...maybe my memory isn't very good...but it sure seemed we had some brutal winters back then.
Now we have tornado warnings on March 6th...
I was in Columbus for the NCAA Mideast Regional...the lost to Jacksonville was devastating..it really affected Miller...I think Ralph more than anything just wanted to start a new somewhere else..with a chance to compete in Pac10 & against UCLA.
That Jacksonville loss is still devastating to anybody old enough to remember. I was in grade school. I didn't quite understand the whole one and done concept yet. I remember asking my dad after the Hawks beat ND in the consolation game if they got to move on. I was crushed all over again when he told me no.
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