The Big Ten is the second best conference in the country this year according to the NET. The Big Ten has also been the best conf in basketball two of the last four years. So your final point doesn’t really have much to stand on.
Fran vs Tom Davis
- Thread starter LincolnHawkeye
- Start date
I always thought Davis got a raw deal, however at the time I understood the frustration as well. There was also a shiny Steve Alford waiting in the wings we all thought would take us to the next level (regular sweet 16s).
That was before I knew how bad it could get.
That's why Fran gets forgiven for ONLY making the tournament.
I realize as I'm older that I value going into games knowing we have a chance to win. It makes watching much more fun. We always have a chance with Fran. with Lickliter, we went for long stretches without hope, just waiting until we met the next really bad team that MAYBE we could beat. That was miserable.
That was before I knew how bad it could get.
That's why Fran gets forgiven for ONLY making the tournament.
I realize as I'm older that I value going into games knowing we have a chance to win. It makes watching much more fun. We always have a chance with Fran. with Lickliter, we went for long stretches without hope, just waiting until we met the next really bad team that MAYBE we could beat. That was miserable.
Just giving ya a little crap since the number of NCAA appearances (nine) was actually in the OP and somewhat common knowledge among us older fans. When you went with the tried and true ‘undefeated in opening round games’, I thought you were one of us older guys.
And no regular season championships and no Sweet Sixteen's to show for it.
Just adding a little information for context. Lute Olsen - 9 years.
Big Ten Record:
Davis: 125-105 (54%)
McCaffery: 126-118 (52%)
Lute Olsen 91-71 (56%)
Overall Record:
Davis: 269-140 (66%)
McCaffery: 257-173 (60%)
Lute Olsen 167-91 (65%)
NCAA Appearances:
Davis: 9
McCaffery: 8 (Counting 2020 and 2023) (Also counting First Four appearance in 2014)
Olsen 5
Tournament Wins:
Davis: 13
McCaffery: 5 (Counting 1 for 2020) (2023 TBD)
Olsen 7
I don't think that anyone would argue that Lute wasn't better than Dr Tom or Fran. But for the magical 1980 FF run, are the records that much different?
Heck, you can go back to Ralph Miller who left Iowa on 1970 (53 years ago!) - probably had the best results but it was back when it was almost impossible to get into the Dance.
It's Iowa basketball.
Final note - did Dr Tom lose guys to the NBA (Ricki Davis maybe the only one?). Imagine this years team with Keagan?
Another note: The NCAA tournament consisted of 32 teams in Lute’s first season and 52 teams by his last season at Iowa. The tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985.
Davis didn't lose many guys to the nba but he lost some of his most talented guys for various reasons.
Thompson, Street, Settles, Davis.
Not getting Lafrentz was probably as big of a factor as any in why Davis was let go though.
Last edited:
After Ravelings recruits were gone.
Davis 89-87 in conference play the next 10 years.
6 NCAA appearances.
After Frans first 3 years.
105-85 in conference play the next 10 years.
7 NCAA appearances. Counting 2020 and this year.
Davis was 25-47 in conference play at Stanford.
Davis was 25-47 in conference play at Drake.
Other than last year, Frans teams have been pathetic in BTT.
Davis was 0-2.
Stanford basketball greatly improved under Mike Montgomery.
Davis 89-87 in conference play the next 10 years.
6 NCAA appearances.
After Frans first 3 years.
105-85 in conference play the next 10 years.
7 NCAA appearances. Counting 2020 and this year.
Davis was 25-47 in conference play at Stanford.
Davis was 25-47 in conference play at Drake.
Other than last year, Frans teams have been pathetic in BTT.
Davis was 0-2.
Stanford basketball greatly improved under Mike Montgomery.
I wish Ryan Bowen would have stuck around. Was he back helping the coaching staff for maybe a year? I think he would have had some connections having played in the NBA for as long as he did.
Wonder where he is at these days.
'Some are just hanging in there?' You believe? Beyond silly. Fran is operating in the portal, NIL era. Of course we're going to lose people.
I found Davis basketball unwatchable and actually did tune out for several years. Rotating players in and out every four or five minutes was insane. (I've always wondered what Armstrong and the rest of that Year One team thought of that strategy.) The full court press was easily shredded by good teams. A typical game v the good Big Ten teams went like this: The opponent goes up by 15-20, Iowa continues pressing, the opponent loses interest, and Iowa loses by eight. (I did like the way Davis teams rebounded, though.)
Don't know about the doctor's humility, personality. I'll defer to you. (Btw, I've always wondered about guys you use the 'Dr.' when it's a PhD in education.) Somehow he didn't notice the point-shaving at BC or the way Pearl was recruiting Deon Thomas, except, it has been reported, to tell Pearl that his job depended on getting Thomas. The doctor himself was widely considered a lazy recruiter. Could, should he have gotten LaFrentz? His father loved Roy Williams and Kansas, so maybe he was ungettable. But maybe the reasons he loved KU were its style of play and the fact that Williams was relentless in recruiting his son. Read Williams' memoir for that story.
I'll take Fran basketball in a heartbeat. Fast and entertaining. Re/ defense, don't teams score more when given more opportunities against a fast-paced team like Iowa. Would you rather have Wisconsin basketball? And following the Lickliter disaster, I'm sure that Fran figured, rightly, that the way to attract fans and talent was to emphasize offense over defense.
Lol this thread only serves to reaffirm the prevailing theory perpetuated by people outside the fanbase that........."Iowa fans don't know wtf they want."
Good stuff, as always.
Good stuff, as always.
Iowans by nature don’t like change. I’m not one of those.
It all depends on what you expect Iowa basketball to be. I would argue that we should never expect to win a big ten title, but should be in the top half every year and maybe the top 3 every 3-4 years.
The main drawback to Fran so far as been the tournament performance. I think most of the fan base expects the team to make the tournament most years, which he has done, but I think they expect a tournament win almost every time, and considering we are almost always favored in the first game, thats not much to ask. But the fan base also expects a deeper tournament run every 4-5 years, and we obviously haven't had that in over 20 years now.
The main drawback to Fran so far as been the tournament performance. I think most of the fan base expects the team to make the tournament most years, which he has done, but I think they expect a tournament win almost every time, and considering we are almost always favored in the first game, thats not much to ask. But the fan base also expects a deeper tournament run every 4-5 years, and we obviously haven't had that in over 20 years now.
I think Fran's ceiling would be higher if his teams would simply start playing reasonable defense. Is even middle of the pack in the BIg 10 too much to ask? Not this dead last stuff.
Bingo. It’s a legitimate complaint and it’s irritating watch Fran get frustrated when asked about defense.
Reality check for those with memories of Dr Tom's success, skewed by his first year with George's players.
Truth is that it is hard to have elite teams at Iowa, which has some significant disadvantages compared to about half of the other teams in the B1G. Lute took Iowa to a Final Four, but as noted, his record was barely better than Fran or Dr Tom.
Lute also inherited a bad team.
You conveniently left out his record at Lafayette and Boston College. 100-47 at BC with an elite 8 appearance and 117-46 or something like that at Lafayette. And his record at Drake was misleading as he was the 1 who set that team up for their Valley title in 07-08.
2014 (11) Iowa vs (11) Tennessee: Iowa -2.5
2015 (7) Iowa vs (10) Davidson: Iowa -1
2016 (7) Iowa vs (10) Temple: Iowa -7
2019 (7) Cincy vs (10) Iowa: Cincy -4.5
2020 No NCAA Tournament
2021 (2) Iowa vs (15) GCU: Iowa 14
2022 (5) Iowa vs (12) Richmond: Iowa -10.5
Second round:
2015 (7) Iowa vs (2) Gonzaga: Zags -5
2016 (7) Iowa vs (2) Villanova: Nova -6.5
2019 (10) Iowa vs (2) Tennessee: Tenn -8
2021 (2) Iowa vs (7) Oregon: Iowa -5.5
All seven of those players were on the same team, and Marble, Horton and Armstrong were all sophs for Davis's first year, so he had three years with that core. Just a slight difference, don't you think?
Maybe because they are all highly ranked and regarded players? That might be one factor.
And re Connor McCaffrey: he was just selected third team All Conference. But he sucks, right? He only plays because he's the coaches son.
As I've said a few times before, get a frigging clue.
I fear for the safety of our student-athletes with Fran as the coach. He desperately needs anger management classes. He is beyond unprofessional...
Cook, Garza and Weiskamp all played on the same team as well. Marble and Horton were great Hawks but did nothing in the NBA. Luka has had by far the most decorated college career of any of those guys. Obviously BJ and Gamble had successful pro careers. Lohaus as well, though Lohaus developed 100% under Dr Toms system. Keegan is on his way to making the all rookie team and will probably have a better pro career than any of Dr Toms guys.
So how are Cook, Garza and Weiskamp doing in the NBA? Davis had SEVEN, I repeat SEVEN NBA players on one team. Don't get me wrong, I loved Davis and was very irate when he was let go, but comparing any of Fran's teams to that one is ridiculous.
And saying that Luka was that good also means that Fran's coaching is excellent, because Garza was a project. (waiting to hear how that was all due to Frank Garza in 5...4...3...2...)
Bringing up Keegan is also a kudo to Fran, as the Murray's were overlooked by everyone but Fran.
Fran and his wife regularly make fools of themselves at IC West BB games. Profanity laced tirades aimed at high school officials. Pathetic behavior from someone in his position.
Again, 3 of those guys actually played in the NBA. Hortons career was 45 games and and Marble played 24. Cup of coffee for Jones and I’d have to look it up whoever was the 7th guy. Murray will also be a 1st rounder so Fran actually had 2 1st round picks in the Murray bros plus Garza on the same team. I’m not a Fran hater at all but let’s not pretend he hasn’t had star players, because he has.
In no way shape or form was Garza a project. That is completely false.
He was a 4* recruit with an offer from Rick Patino.
Hes the most naturally talented scorer to come to Iowa in a long time.
He just needed to get in slightly better shape and get Tyler Cook out of the lane.
Need to read carefully. Dr Tom inherited all 7 of the players on that team from George Raveling. Although I think maybe Ryan Bowen is being overlooked, who had a long solid NBA career.
Dr Tom was basically a .500 coach his last 10 years at Iowa, and there were some off court issues that probably contributed to his release.
Overall, I think Lute was the best coach at Iowa in the 45 years I have followed them, but he did not exactly have a series of elite teams. Iowa is not a hotbed of lots of top recruits, and doesn't have the history or budget of some of the other athletic dept's in the B1G. I think the best BB coaches at Iowa were before I started following the Hawks.
Agreed. Lute is almost certainly the best recruiter/coach Iowa has had in my lifetime and it took going to Arizona for him to make that leap to elite level.
I knew someone would take the bait and bring BC up. Congratulations. The set up argument for 2007-08 season is ridiculous. Drake lost 4 starters off of 06-07 team. 2008 MVC MVP did Emmeneker did not start one game the previous season. Leonard Houston started zero. Davis set the 2007 team up for success and completely failed.
Take what bait? You threw out his failure at Stanford while not talking about his great winning % at BC and Lafayette. You’re ridiculous.
Oh I am old enough to remember watching bits and pieces on TV of Iowa in the 1950's Rose Bowls.
Fran’s achilles heel is guard recruiting.
Can’t feature guys like JBo / Connor and win in March. Defense is half the game.
Can’t feature guys like JBo / Connor and win in March. Defense is half the game.
Let me guess.... you're getting your period.
It's pretty obvious
Similar threads
