Fran's rotations

[Ihawkhoops]

You covered a lot of things, not sure where to start, but I'll try. First, I'm strictly pointing out/reminding people of some of Joe T's mistakes. I love Joe, but it's your guys fault for making me do this. So many here are focused on Jbo, so that's all I'm really doing.
Starting, It's not fair to summarize 6 points for both without putting any context behind it. Unless your point is just to scrutinize Jbo. Joe had a great drive and turnaround J for his first points. His next points came on a brilliant pass from Pat wide open underneath with nobody around. His final points came on a loose ball out of bounds, thrown back in to him directly under the hoop again, wide open. This is where he leaned in to Kofi. Four of those points are points anyone could have scored, including Jbo.
Secondly, if we need Joe so bad to drive and dish, how is it possible he played 13 minutes with 0 assists? How is it possible that his A/TO ratio is almost 1/1 while Jbo's sits at 3/1. If he's so much better at penetration, how is it possible that Joe's 2 pt FG% is 44% compared to Jbo's 48%.
Thirdly (not sure that's a word) Jbo is a better rebounder.
And Finally, even if Joe is driving, he's shooting 68% from the FT line, not good.d
We were strictly talking Jbo vs Joe T, why I didn't talk about Connor.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion and on this we do not agree.

1) If Jbo can score the way Joe T. then why doesn't he? It's not a one game sample I am talking about, it's career. Jbo has the luxury of playing with the starters so he should have the advantage. Joe T. plays with whatever random rotation Fran has on the floor at the time. Joe T. also doesn't get the chances to play through mistakes like Jbo (see Gonzaga turnovers and 0-game against Indiana).
2) Assist to turnover ratio with Garza on your team is a bit misleading. You can throw the ball at his feet and he will dig it out and likely score. It is what it is, but again Jbo gets over 2x the playing time Joe T. does. I would add that if you tracked wind burns from giving up blow by layups, Jbo would lead the country.
3) I would rather have a PG who has the potential to get to the foul line than one who lives behind the arc and is no threat to drive. 7 out of 10 from the line is better than 0 for 0.

Joe T. has a lot of work to do I get it. but he barely breaks a sweat before Fran yanks him. Tough to get in the flow of the game. Jbo is a hell of a player but he needs someone on the floor to take some of the heavy lifting off his shoulders with ball handling. He needs a Joe T., Ulis or Perkins to break the defense so he can flow to an open spot to be there for a kick out and open 3. He has been shooting to shoot the last few games vs. shooting in any rhythm. Fran has to push some buttons to get him some better looks or we will see more poor shooting nights from him IMO.

 

[24 so far]

I think right now joeT knows he’s getting very limited minutes so when he’s in he’s playing to impress and maybe draw a few extra minutes. In extended time last yr with jbo out he filled in quite nicely. Obviously the way he plays you’re going to see some bad TO’s, but the kid is 1 of a kind. Every game, he is the quickest 1 on the floor and he definitely brings something we sorely lack.

Anybody that plays a lot is going to make mistakes, miss shots, lose a rebound, etc. Joe T isn't the worst guard Iowa has had by any stretch, and he has certainly done some good things. IMO, the things he does poorly get covered up more because he's got a good Team around him.

But I don't want a point guard who plays with his hair on fire. Just like a QB, they are the one person who touches the ball on every play and they need to have their wits about them, and IMO a calming effect on his teammates.

I've stated many times I'm probably to harsh on his play, but from my viewpoint he's the guy who jumps in the air and has nowhere to go with the ball.

We've had 8-9 years of Mike Gesell and Jordan Bohannon (both good players and great Hawkeyes), I think Iowa Fans are just starved for a great point guard, and It's been awhile since we've had one. Joe T isn't that guy IMO, and won't be before he's gone

If you honestly don’t think joe is better at driving the ball, then you’re a lost cause lol Jbo’s 48% 2pt fg probably comes on what 12 attempts?Then you point to joeT’s 6 points and how they came, the guy is getting himself open. How often do you even see jbo within 10ft of the rim? Ill give you the assists, but a lot of times getting into the paint and kicking out it may take another pass or 2 to get the defense out of position and a more open shot. I don’t think anybody on here is saying jbo is garbage and not to play him. Simply against more athletic guards it may be better to give joeT more minutes. One thing you can’t argue is defense...at least i hope you wouldn’t

I would argue you could give some of Jbo's minutes away, but I wouldn't give them to Joe T. Ulis or Perkins. I'm not going by analytics (though they can be helpful), just my eye test.

 

[SDHawkDoc]

The simple part of the equation is that Bohannon sits if he's not hitting from 3. The tougher part is what combo should be out there to be most effective.

 

[Slim45]

Anybody that plays a lot is going to make mistakes, miss shots, lose a rebound, etc. Joe T isn't the worst guard Iowa has had by any stretch, and he has certainly done some good things. IMO, the things he does poorly get covered up more because he's got a good Team around him.

But I don't want a point guard who plays with his hair on fire. Just like a QB, they are the one person who touches the ball on every play and they need to have their wits about them, and IMO a calming effect on his teammates.

I've stated many times I'm probably to harsh on his play, but from my viewpoint he's the guy who jumps in the air and has nowhere to go with the ball.

We've had 8-9 years of Mike Gesell and Jordan Bohannon (both good players and great Hawkeyes), I think Iowa Fans are just starved for a great point guard, and It's been awhile since we've had one. Joe T isn't that guy IMO, and won't be before he's gone
I would argue you could give some of Jbo's minutes away, but I wouldn't give them to Joe T. Ulis or Perkins. I'm not going by analytics (though they can be helpful), just my eye test.

I think in extended time last yr he showed he’s capable of running the show pretty well, and that was as a true frosh. My opinion, he knows his role on this team is to come in and play balls out for 5 minutes then go back to the bench and he makes some mistakes bc of it. If you’re taking minutes away from jbo zero r going to perkins bc he isn’t a pg. i cud see giving ulis a cupl minutes here and there, in fact i think it would be smart bc he will be needed in a big way next yr and experience is good. but if Jbo is losing many minutes i want most going to joeT bc he has more experience and his quickness on d is really unmatched. All this bantering is obviously for nothing, dont think Frans on here looking for our opinions lol and i also don’t think he’ll be taking any minutes away from jbo.

 

[CleteyColgate]

The simple part of the equation is that Bohannon sits if he's not hitting from 3. The tougher part is what combo should be out there to be most effective.

At what point in the game will we know that?

 

[SDHawkDoc]

That's Fran's job. He's paid a lot of money to make those decisions, in game. That's a pretty clearly understood part of a coach's responsibility.

 

[Hawksfinal4]

Thanks fellas that was a good discussion without much inflammatory rhetoric bravo. I enjoyed your discussion

 

[Ihawkhoops]

The simple part of the equation is that Bohannon sits if he's not hitting from 3. The tougher part is what combo should be out there to be most effective.

Well stated. Jbo doesn't do enough well to merit all the PT when not making shots. Murray is great but I like him coming off the bench for Connor or Joe W. Ulis and Perkins dramatically improve Iowa's athleticism on both ends and that is never a bad thing. Hell, play Jbo with some combo of these guys and let them drive and kick to see if he can clean looks.

 

[Jizzer]

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion and on this we do not agree.

1) If Jbo can score the way Joe T. then why doesn't he? It's not a one game sample I am talking about, it's career. Jbo has the luxury of playing with the starters so he should have the advantage. Joe T. plays with whatever random rotation Fran has on the floor at the time. Joe T. also doesn't get the chances to play through mistakes like Jbo (see Gonzaga turnovers and 0-game against Indiana).
2) Assist to turnover ratio with Garza on your team is a bit misleading. You can throw the ball at his feet and he will dig it out and likely score. It is what it is, but again Jbo gets over 2x the playing time Joe T. does. I would add that if you tracked wind burns from giving up blow by layups, Jbo would lead the country.
3) I would rather have a PG who has the potential to get to the foul line than one who lives behind the arc and is no threat to drive. 7 out of 10 from the line is better than 0 for 0.

Joe T. has a lot of work to do I get it. but he barely breaks a sweat before Fran yanks him. Tough to get in the flow of the game. Jbo is a hell of a player but he needs someone on the floor to take some of the heavy lifting off his shoulders with ball handling. He needs a Joe T., Ulis or Perkins to break the defense so he can flow to an open spot to be there for a kick out and open 3. He has been shooting to shoot the last few games vs. shooting in any rhythm. Fran has to push some buttons to get him some better looks or we will see more poor shooting nights from him IMO.

ON a per 40 minute basis
Jbo: 2 pt % 47.6, 3pt% 37.6%, 83% FT, 5 Reb, 6.6 assist, 2 Turnovers, 1.4 fouls, and 13.5 points on 11.5 shots per game.
Joe: 2 pt % 44%, 3 pt% 25%, FT 68%, 3.5 reb, 7.3 assists, 5 turnovers, 5.7 fouls, and 14.8 points on 13 shots per game.
Joe's advantage is steals per game right now.

Jbo scores at the same clip, they are just very different players. Why would Jbo have the advantage to score more while playing with the starters? He's the 3rd option at minimum. His 11.5 shots per 40 min are tied with Keegan for 6th on the team, while having played the 2nd most minutes so far.

Honestly, PT allocation looks like Fran giving the benefit of the doubt to a 5th year Senior over a Sophomore who is performing just a hair worse. It's all good in the end(we are top 10 still), I just think the screaming for Joe additional minutes is being blown out of proportion on this board.

 

[Hawksfinal4]

ON a per 40 minute basis
Jbo: 2 pt % 47.6, 3pt% 37.6%, 83% FT, 5 Reb, 6.6 assist, 2 Turnovers, 1.4 fouls, and 13.5 points on 11.5 shots per game.
Joe: 2 pt % 44%, 3 pt% 25%, FT 68%, 3.5 reb, 7.3 assists, 5 turnovers, 5.7 fouls, and 14.8 points on 13 shots per game.
Joe's advantage is steals per game right now.

Jbo scores at the same clip, they are just very different players. Why would Jbo have the advantage to score more while playing with the starters? He's the 3rd option at minimum. His 11.5 shots per 40 min are tied with Keegan for 6th on the team, while having played the 2nd most minutes so far.

Honestly, PT allocation looks like Fran giving the benefit of the doubt to a 5th year Senior over a Sophomore who is performing just a hair worse. It's all good in the end(we are top 10 still), I just think the screaming for Joe additional minutes is being blown out of proportion on this board.

You’re exactly right Fran is giving the benefit of the doubt to a 5th year senior. It’s his decision and he should consider all aspects of winning the games in front of him, and I’m sure he does. Loyalty, experience , abilities, deficiencies, team chemistry. Fran will eventually get the credit or criticism. Defense now is a pretty big criticism and offense is a pretty big credit. I’ll be watching and enjoying all the games and at the end I hope I’m not saying but what if?

 

[Slim45]

ON a per 40 minute basis
Jbo: 2 pt % 47.6, 3pt% 37.6%, 83% FT, 5 Reb, 6.6 assist, 2 Turnovers, 1.4 fouls, and 13.5 points on 11.5 shots per game.
Joe: 2 pt % 44%, 3 pt% 25%, FT 68%, 3.5 reb, 7.3 assists, 5 turnovers, 5.7 fouls, and 14.8 points on 13 shots per game.
Joe's advantage is steals per game right now.

Jbo scores at the same clip, they are just very different players. Why would Jbo have the advantage to score more while playing with the starters? He's the 3rd option at minimum. His 11.5 shots per 40 min are tied with Keegan for 6th on the team, while having played the 2nd most minutes so far.

Honestly, PT allocation looks like Fran giving the benefit of the doubt to a 5th year Senior over a Sophomore who is performing just a hair worse. It's all good in the end(we are top 10 still), I just think the screaming for Joe additional minutes is being blown out of proportion on this board.

Idk about screaming for more minutes. I think the main thing people see is athletic guards neutralizing jbo on offense. In those types of games, give joe some extra minutes. The game tonight will be interesting to see some of the lineups after fran says he hopes to get ulis and perkins more run. I personally hope to see jbo playing off the ball more

 

[Jizzer]

Idk about screaming for more minutes. I think the main thing people see is athletic guards neutralizing jbo on offense. In those types of games, give joe some extra minutes. The game tonight will be interesting to see some of the lineups after fran says he hopes to get ulis and perkins more run. I personally hope to see jbo playing off the ball more

If CJ is out, he should. I like Keegan starting over Joe T, and getting more minutes personally. I have to pick between the two because we know Connor isn't sitting. However, with this game, we might be better off starting Joe and putting him on Watts.
Potential Matchups
MSU
Watts PG
Langford SG
Kithier SF 6-8 230
Hauser 6-9
Henry 6-6

Bench
Loyer 6-0 shooter, Jabo target when he's in. He plays quite a bit at 17 ppg.

If Murray starts:
Jbo on Watts
Garza on Hauser
Keegan on Henry
Joe on Kithier
Connor on Langford
Or if Joe starts
Joe on Watts
Jbo on Langford
Connor on Henry
Joe on Kithier
Garza on Hauser

What's worse Connor guarding Henry or Jbo guarding Watts?

 

[Slim45]

If CJ is out, he should. I like Keegan starting over Joe T, and getting more minutes personally. I have to pick between the two because we know Connor isn't sitting. However, with this game, we might be better off starting Joe and putting him on Watts.
Potential Matchups
MSU
Watts PG
Langford SG
Kithier SF 6-8 230
Hauser 6-9
Henry 6-6

Bench
Loyer 6-0 shooter, Jabo target when he's in. He plays quite a bit at 17 ppg.

If Murray starts:
Jbo on Watts
Garza on Hauser
Keegan on Henry
Joe on Kithier
Connor on Langford
Or if Joe starts
Joe on Watts
Jbo on Langford
Connor on Henry
Joe on Kithier
Garza on Hauser

What's worse Connor guarding Henry or Jbo guarding Watts?

I don’t think fran will vary from the starting lineup he’s went with since cj got hurt. And jbo guarding anybody is always going to be the worst matchup LOL connor may not be quick or fast, but he at least has decent size and is strong. I think the best way to get joeT AND ulis more pt is by moving jbo off the ball more if cj cant go. The thing i like about moving jbo off the ball is we can get more athleticism on the floor with joet or ulis and still be able to spread the floor with joew and jbo on the wings.

 

[RocknRollface]

I don't really like Connor at the 2 with Keegan starting.

This particular matchup isn’t bad with Langford who is not real athletic, but generally imo Connor is a worse perimeter defender than he is at defending the 4. And he can operate better outside when being defended by a bigger slower player.

Keegan deserves to start but I do not like JBO and Connor playing the guard spots together. Two guards that can't penetrate or defend is a bad combo.

I'd rather see JBO with Toussaint at the 1 or Perkins at the 2 to get a defender out there at guard and let Keegan be first off bench for Connor or JBO.

 

[Ronman]

JBo or JoeT? I don't think it made any difference in the Illinois game. We could have played 6 on 5 and would still have had a problem stopping Ayo from scoring from all over. When is it our turn to get one of those guys?

 

[RocknRollface]

JBo or JoeT? I don't think it made any difference in the Illinois game. We could have played 6 on 5 and would still have had a problem stopping Ayo from scoring from all over. When is it our turn to get one of those guys?

Really, you don't think it would have made a difference who was defending him?

Theres video evidence that the defender made allot of difference.

Just watch JBOs defense in the first half compared to Joe and Perkins in the second half.

Ayo made tough shots but he also had quite a few sequences of virtually no resistance from JBO.

When Perkins was defending him he was not able to get into the lane the same way at all.

 

[Jizzer]

Really, you don't think it would have made a difference who was defending him?

Theres video evidence that the defender made allot of difference.

Just watch JBOs defense in the first half compared to Joe and Perkins in the second half.

Ayo made tough shots but he also had quite a few sequences of virtually no resistance from JBO.

When Perkins was defending him he was not able to get into the lane the same way at all.

Jbo wasn't guarding Ayo, Ever. When Joe T and Perkins were in, we were playing zone.

 

[RocknRollface]

Jbo wasn't guarding Ayo, Ever. When Joe T and Perkins were in, we were playing zone.

Of course he was. What the hell are you talking about?

He was guarding him at the top of the zone. Just like Joe and Perkins.

Just because your playing zone doesn't mean you're not guarding someone.

All 3 Illinois guards were abusing JBO whether in man or zone. And they were not doing that against the rest of the guards.

 

[unoHawkeye]

Just because your playing zone doesn't mean you're not guarding someone.

To be fair, this is the Iowa zone we’re talking about

 

[Ihawkhoops]

ON a per 40 minute basis
Jbo: 2 pt % 47.6, 3pt% 37.6%, 83% FT, 5 Reb, 6.6 assist, 2 Turnovers, 1.4 fouls, and 13.5 points on 11.5 shots per game.
Joe: 2 pt % 44%, 3 pt% 25%, FT 68%, 3.5 reb, 7.3 assists, 5 turnovers, 5.7 fouls, and 14.8 points on 13 shots per game.
Joe's advantage is steals per game right now.

Jbo scores at the same clip, they are just very different players. Why would Jbo have the advantage to score more while playing with the starters? He's the 3rd option at minimum. His 11.5 shots per 40 min are tied with Keegan for 6th on the team, while having played the 2nd most minutes so far.

Honestly, PT allocation looks like Fran giving the benefit of the doubt to a 5th year Senior over a Sophomore who is performing just a hair worse. It's all good in the end(we are top 10 still), I just think the screaming for Joe additional minutes is being blown out of proportion on this board.

Fair points. Appreciate that we can agree to disagree on this issue in a respectful manner. We will see what unfolds the rest of the year. I am still of the opinion that when Jbo is not making shots there are better options and Joe T. is one of them.

My point on Jbo having an advantage playing with the starters is because of Garza. There should be good looks for Jbo and others with all the attention Garza gets. Joe T. is playing with Nunge or Murray--both nice players but not Garza.

 

[Jizzer]

Of course he was. What the hell are you talking about?

He was guarding him at the top of the zone. Just like Joe and Perkins.

Just because your playing zone doesn't mean you're not guarding someone.

All 3 Illinois guards were abusing JBO whether in man or zone. And they were not doing that against the rest of the guards.

Wait, you're blaming Jbo for not covering Ayo in a zone?