Giving up 15/13 Offensive Boards to GT/TCU (10 2H Offensive to Duke) is a weakness that must be addressed

[owenhawk]

No offense taken….

here are Ogundele #’s so far..please share how playing him “takes minutes from a far better player”
there is the results that Ogundele is (40minutes)

• Rebounding similar to Rebraca 11.2 to 11.7
• Block shots similar to Rebraca 1.9 to 2.1
• 1st team in Assist/40m
• 2nd in Steals/40m
• 1st in defensive ratings 82 pts / 100 possession
• 1st in Off Rebounding %

Ogundele has done Everything he can control to earn more minutes
he can rebound, block shots, score at high efficiency, contest bigs shots in paint.
agree only for 3-4minutes at a time, however, that’s still 30-40% of game,

Acie Earl was unorthodox and took some time to be appreciated, over tome, so to could Ogundele

The problem is you are taking his Per 40 with very little time to base it on.

And the main reason he can't play more is because in Year 3 he still can't get in good shape. If he was given more extended minutes, it is reasonable to believe his numbers would suffer because he physically can't handle more minutes.

Also, if you can't tell the difference between Acie Earl and Josh O, that is a problem. Acie Earl was an ELITE player in College. He played in the NBA and even scored 40 pts in a game in the NBA. If Josh O. is as talented as you believe, he would be playing somewhere else because someone would have grabbed him in the portal.

 

[iahawks10]

The problem is you are taking his Per 40 with very little time to base it on.

And the main reason he can't play more is because in Year 3 he still can't get in good shape. If he was given more extended minutes, it is reasonable to believe his numbers would suffer because he physically can't handle more minutes.

That can’t be true. “Ogundele has done Everything he can control to earn more minutes”. But then again, it was suggested that he only goes hard for four minutes because he knows that’s the max he’ll play. Suppose Josh O should go easier and play more. That or maybe the other who are playing more minutes don’t go as hard as Josh O does? I’m trying to figure this mystery out.

 

[CookyMonster]

God no on Rebraca and Ogundele on the court together. We would never score at the rim the lane would be so clogged.

Indiana gave up 14 orb in the first half vs Rutgers.

 

[KcTo]

That can’t be true. “Ogundele has done Everything he can control to earn more minutes”. But then again, it was suggested that he only goes hard for four minutes because he knows that’s the max he’ll play. Suppose Josh O should go easier and play more. That or maybe the other who are playing more minutes don’t go as hard as Josh O does? I’m trying to figure this mystery out.

Let me help you understand this….
ogundel plays 3-4 minutes, sits 3-4 minutes, plays 3-4 minutes, etc etc….

this is done all the time with players working themselves into extended minutes playing shape.

 

[KcTo]

The problem is you are taking his Per 40 with very little time to base it on.

And the main reason he can't play more is because in Year 3 he still can't get in good shape. If he was given more extended minutes, it is reasonable to believe his numbers would suffer because he physically can't handle more minutes.

Also, if you can't tell the difference between Acie Earl and Josh O, that is a problem. Acie Earl was an ELITE player in College. He played in the NBA and even scored 40 pts in a game in the NBA. If Josh O. is as talented as you believe, he would be playing somewhere else because someone would have grabbed him in the portal.

Agree this yr is small sample size and not perfectly predictive. it’s very positive, to state that when he’s in game, he produces.

lets look at the argument that is being made that the more he plays in a game, the less productive he will be.
lets look at his career minutes played in a game, last year vs #2 Purdue, at purdue, and 1v1 versus their stellar front line of 2 huge centers and superlative PF. Certainly against the best players at tough venue in a top 5 team.

• 16 minutes.
• 7. Points in 3-4 FGA
• 5 rebounds

You can begin to see, much like other players, that the more they play, the more productive they become.

this is an example of how Ogundele can be used to hold the the rebounding line to compliment this poor rebounding team, and do so with in the context that was put forward earlier, 12-16 minutes a game, in 3-4m segments.

if only he was given an opportunity , we very well might see a solution to IOWAs most glaring weaknesss.

 

[owenhawk]

Agree this yr is small sample size and not perfectly predictive. it’s very positive, to state that when he’s in game, he produces.

lets look at the argument that is being made that the more he plays in a game, the less productive he will be.
lets look at his career minutes played in a game, last year vs #2 Purdue, at purdue, and 1v1 versus their stellar front line of 2 huge centers and superlative PF. Certainly against the best players at tough venue in a top 5 team.

• 16 minutes.
• 7. Points in 3-4 FGA
• 5 rebounds

You can begin to see, much like other players, that the more they play, the more productive they become.

this is an example of how Ogundele can be used to hold the the rebounding line to compliment this poor rebounding team, and do so with in the context that was put forward earlier, 12-16 minutes a game, in 3-4m segments.

if only he was given an opportunity , we very well might see a solution to IOWAs most glaring weaknesss.

I imagine he is going to have opportunities as the season wears on and face some bigger front lines.

I would be fine with giving him some more minutes to see how he can do in extended minutes but I think Seton Hall and GT are really bad match-ups for him. They are smaller but quick/physical.

I know some of his extrapolated metrics look good and there are others that look pretty bad. His Offensive and Defensive Ratings are some of the worst on the team.

And if we are going to use stats to pump up Josh, than we need to not call Iowa a poor rebounding team because the stats don't reflect that. IF you want to point to anything, it is they are a below average Defensive Rebounding team. They actually have been really good on the Offensive Boards as well.

As others have alluded to, Iowa isn't a perfect team. Like almost all teams, they are going to have flaws. I am not sure that the advantages that might come from having Josh on the floor more would outweigh the disadvantages of him taking time from some other players that provide other positive attributes.

 

[KcTo]

I imagine he is going to have opportunities as the season wears on and face some bigger front lines.

I would be fine with giving him some more minutes to see how he can do in extended minutes but I think Seton Hall and GT are really bad match-ups for him. They are smaller but quick/physical.

I know some of his extrapolated metrics look good and there are others that look pretty bad. His Offensive and Defensive Ratings are some of the worst on the team.

And if we are going to use stats to pump up Josh, than we need to not call Iowa a poor rebounding team because the stats don't reflect that. IF you want to point to anything, it is they are a below average Defensive Rebounding team. They actually have been really good on the Offensive Boards as well.

As others have alluded to, Iowa isn't a perfect team. Like almost all teams, they are going to have flaws. I am not sure that the advantages that might come from having Josh on the floor more would outweigh the disadvantages of him taking time from some other players that provide other positive attributes.

Good thoughts, What defensive metrics do you see that indicate Ogundele is poor defensive players? Thanks

To be clear,

1. I’m not saying that extrapolating status over 40 is what to expect, only that in limited play, ogundele has performed beet well, and deserves more minutes.
2. I’m not predicting he is going to be an impact player, only that playing him more will benefit Iowa vs top 20 programs in prtoetcing the defense glass,
3. I do improving rim defense, particularly when there is a big that can comfortable shoot over the top of Rebraca [we saw this in Ogundele vs Kofi and Ogundele vs Purdue last year.

 

[owenhawk]

Good thoughts, What defensive metrics do you see that indicate Ogundele is poor defensive players? Thanks

To be clear,

1. I’m not saying that extrapolating status over 40 is what to expect, only that in limited play, ogundele has performed beet well, and deserves more minutes.
2. I’m not predicting he is going to be an impact player, only that playing him more will benefit Iowa vs top 20 programs in prtoetcing the defense glass,
3. I do improving rim defense, particularly when there is a big that can comfortable shoot over the top of Rebraca [we saw this in Ogundele vs Kofi and Ogundele vs Purdue last year.

I use Advanced Metrics but will fully admit I am never sure how much to rely on them or not ...

Josh's Defensive Rating (DRtg) is the worst of anyone of the 11 scholarship players. Then his Defensive Win Shares are the worst of the top 9 in the rotation. But his DBPM is really good. So I mean, I am not sure but there are metrics that point to him not being a good Defensive player.

To your points, I agree there are times he could be of value and I would be fine seeing how he does in some more minutes if Fran and Staff feel it makes sense. From what I have seen, there are some match-ups he could definitely provide some short-term help but other match-up I think he would be abused. I think realistically, he is not a "long-term solution" but I would love to be wrong.

 

[KcTo]

I use Advanced Metrics but will fully admit I am never sure how much to rely on them or not ...

Josh's Defensive Rating (DRtg) is the worst of anyone of the 11 scholarship players. Then his Defensive Win Shares are the worst of the top 9 in the rotation. But his DBPM is really good. So I mean, I am not sure but there are metrics that point to him not being a good Defensive player.

To your points, I agree there are times he could be of value and I would be fine seeing how he does in some more minutes if Fran and Staff feel it makes sense. From what I have seen, there are some match-ups he could definitely provide some short-term help but other match-up I think he would be abused. I think realistically, he is not a "long-term solution" but I would love to be wrong.

I think you may have 180 degree perception here.

the DTRG of 82 means his defensive points given up per possession. Or his guys scores only 0.82 PPP. This wouldbe the best value by quite a margin (And near elite level).

the DWS is a counting number, like total points scored, if you play more, you get more, relative to Minutes/game. Ogundle just not getting many minutes.

as you point out Defensive win shares / minute is by far the best on the team, by quite a margin. This all makes sense becuse Ogundele rebounds defensively well, blocks shots well, steals ball well, and prevents his guy from scoring at a high efficiency level.

I think you’ll now agree these all indicate more time playing time, particularly in the model that I’ve been asking for.

 

[owenhawk]

I think you may have 180 degree perception here.

the DTRG of 82 means his defensive points given up per possession. Or his guys scores only 0.82 PPP. This wouldbe the best value by quite a margin (And near elite level).

the DWS is a counting number, like total points scored, if you play more, you get more, relative to Minutes/game. Ogundle just not getting many minutes.

as you point out Defensive win shares / minute is by far the best on the team, by quite a margin. This all makes sense becuse Ogundele rebounds defensively well, blocks shots well, steals ball well, and prevents his guy from scoring at a high efficiency level.

I think you’ll now agree these all indicate more time playing time, particularly in the model that I’ve been asking for.

Got it. I was reading the DTRG incorrectly. Thank you.

Like I said, I would be fine with some more minutes and see what he can do. I do think match-up will matter for him ... for instance, if he played against Seton Hall and GT, how would that have affected his metric? Obviously, we can't answer that but I do think those teams would not have been match-ups where he would have faired very well.

I have my doubts if it can hold up over the long haul but who know?

 

[KcTo]

Got it. I was reading the DTRG incorrectly. Thank you.

Like I said, I would be fine with some more minutes and see what he can do. I do think match-up will matter for him ... for instance, if he played against Seton Hall and GT, how would that have affected his metric? Obviously, we can't answer that but I do think those teams would not have been match-ups where he would have faired very well.

I have my doubts if it can hold up over the long haul but who know?

SH and GT were small and fast.

conversely, they would have a hell of a problem stopping a 6 10” 275 lb guy as he backs his way in point blank FGA

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

SH and GT were small and fast.

conversely, they would have a hell of a problem stopping a 6 10” 275 lb guy as he backs his way in point blank FGA

You almost seem to believe Josh is the second coming of Moses Malone. I hope I am wrong and you are right, but I doubt that Fran is going to test your theory, unless Kris or Rebraca are unavailable.

 

[Bishop1971]

I really would like to see Josh get more minutes because I think we need his size but he really runs out of gas quickly. If he just works hard on defense and rebounding it would be a big help to the team. I really think this team can be very good as long as we keep pushing the impotance of rebounding.

 

[KcTo]

I really would like to see Josh get more minutes because I think we need his size but he really runs out of gas quickly. If he just works hard on defense and rebounding it would be a big help to the team. I really think this team can be very good as long as we keep pushing the impotance of rebounding.

100% agree that rebounding is essential for success against the top 20 programs
100% agree that Ogundele gets gassed quickly.

the solution that has been posited is to play Ogundele in 3-4 minute stretches. Let him go 100%, knowing that he is only in game until the next TV timeout, at a given pre-set time frame, etc, etc.

utilizEd in this way, 3-4 minutes at a time, gives Rebraca a break, with out being forced into a liability of a playing an undersized and soft front line like Murray, PMac, Sanford/CMac,

there is the very probability that Ogundele will play superior defense in the deep paint that Rebraca, who allows too many totally comfortable looks by bigs that are > 6 10” or guys like TJD who just elevate over the landlubbing Rebraca

 

[Bishop1971]

100% agree that rebounding is essential for success against the top 20 programs
100% agree that Ogundele gets gassed quickly.

the solution that has been posited is to play Ogundele in 3-4 minute stretches. Let him go 100%, knowing that he is only in game until the next TV timeout, at a given pre-set time frame, etc, etc.

utilizEd in this way, 3-4 minutes at a time, gives Rebraca a break, with out being forced into a liability of a playing an undersized and soft front line like Murray, PMac, Sanford/CMac,

there is the very probability that Ogundele will play superior defense in the deep paint that Rebraca, who allows too many totally comfortable looks by bigs that are > 6 10” or guys like TJD who just elevate over the landlubbing Rebraca

We are going to need him in quite a few games just for his size alone. Fran seems pleased with his progress so he may be seeing more minutes against Duke.

 

[iahawks10]

Let me help you understand this….
ogundel plays 3-4 minutes, sits 3-4 minutes, plays 3-4 minutes, etc etc….

this is done all the time with players working themselves into extended minutes playing shape.

That doesn’t help me.

 

[KcTo]

BREAKING: Duke grabs 10 2H Offensive rebounds to stretch 6 point halftime lead to game clinching 17 point lead.

then Fran decides to go with his biggest prime time lineup of the season, Ogundele + Rebraca and then what happened? IOWA addresses this deficiency, going on a defense initiated run, closing gap to 8, in IOWAs best run of game.

Lack of owning your defensive boards again proves predictive.

for the love of god Fran play a strong inner defense and let your creative guys score, it works….

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

BREAKING: Duke grabs 10 2H Offensive rebounds to stretch 6 point halftime lead to game clinching 17 point lead.

then Fran decides to go with his biggest prime time lineup of the season, Ogundele + Rebraca and then what happened? IOWA addresses this deficiency, going on a defense initiated run, closing gap to 8, in IOWAs best run of game.

Lack of owning your defensive boards again proves predictive.

for the love of god Fran play a strong inner defense and let your creative guys score, it works….

How many boards or blocks did Josh get? Rebraca played some good defense. Josh, not so much. Duke figured out how to move him away from the basket, where he is unable to effectively switch or prevent the pick and roll. Fran then took him out. Josh did make a nice contested layup on the offensive end.

Bowen had a lot more to do with Iowa closing the deficit than anyone else. He was about the only one not looking scared on the offensive end.

 

[KcTo]

How many boards or blocks did Josh get? Rebraca played some good defense. Josh, not so much. Duke figured out how to move him away from the basket, where he is unable to effectively switch or prevent the pick and roll. Fran then took him out. Josh did make a nice contested layup on the offensive end.

Bowen had a lot more to do with Iowa closing the deficit than anyone else. He was about the only one not looking scared on the offensive end.

wrong question to Ask. these 3 are better questions to ask

how many offensive rebounds, 2nd chance points were allowed when Ogundele was in the game?

If Duke was so effective in moving Josh away from the basket, why was IOWA +5 with Ogundele In game?

The question you should be asking in a game where Duke blocked 7 shots and contested / altered numerous IOWA interior shots, is , Why did Ogundele easily deliver on a contested layup when most others struggled to do so? (Hint 6 10” and 275 lbs of momentum is hard to stop )

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

wrong question to Ask. these 3 are better questions to ask

how many offensive rebounds, 2nd chance points were allowed when Ogundele was in the game?

If Duke was so effective in moving Josh away from the basket, why was IOWA +5 with Ogundele In game?

The question you should be asking in a game where Duke blocked 7 shots and contested / altered numerous IOWA interior shots, is , Why did Ogundele easily deliver on a contested layup when most others struggled to do so? (Hint 6 10” and 275 lbs of momentum is hard to stop )

Josh "delivered" because he was left open in the lane and had to take one dribble to the basket, where the defender seemed to forget he was left handed. Duke did not consider him an offensive threat, so they were sagging off of him.

Josh played 7 minutes, and did not get a board. The team +/- can be the result of many things besides Josh. Twice he left his man open on a pick and roll. I only saw one time where Duke was playing volleyball on the boards when Josh was in, and he had positioned himself too near the basket. Josh was OK, but your constant suggestion that he is the answer to Iowa's weaknesses is not based on much except hope. It is the Christmas season, and we all need more Hope.

 

[KcTo]

Josh "delivered" because he was left open in the lane and had to take one dribble to the basket, where the defender seemed to forget he was left handed. Duke did not consider him an offensive threat, so they were sagging off of him.

Josh played 7 minutes, and did not get a board. The team +/- can be the result of many things besides Josh. Twice he left his man open on a pick and roll. I only saw one time where Duke was playing volleyball on the boards when Josh was in, and he had positioned himself too near the basket. Josh was OK, but your constant suggestion that he is the answer to Iowa's weaknesses is not based on much except hope. It is the Christmas season, and we all need more Hope.

Lol,
tell me about all the O Boards Duke was getting during this time “ when playing volleyball” and when Ogundele was in game.

We will wait for your analysis on this point

 

[KcTo]

this is how size finishes in traffic