Hate to say it, but this is exactly what I expected to unfold. Good teams know we have nobody who can take them off the dribble, so they get up on our guards and overplay passing lanes. Villanova is better at every position on the floor and if Fran doesn't get a significantly better PG in here, he will never make it to the Sweet 16. Not going to be critical of the players because they are not on the same planet athletically as Nova.
Good teams vs. our guards
- Thread starter Ihawkhoops
- Start date
Don't worry our incoming class will be the saviors of this program!! We have a wait.....
Never mind, it will be pretty much the same.
Never mind, it will be pretty much the same.
When a walk on is your best player in a 2nd round tourney game, recruiting might need to be a priority.
Fran's most unforgiveable sin during his tenure at Iowa. How in the hell do you not recruit/sign a single quality B1G guard post the MG/AC class? Amazing. We have 2 offensively challenged guards, who can't shoot, and lack quickness. One of them would be ok, but you can't have two of them starting. Sign some guards with some quickness who can drive, and/or can shoot the darn rock. Wasn't Fran a guard in college? Which makes it so bewildering how he's unable to bring in any talent at guard. Plodding points guards and shooting guards who can't shoot don't cut it, especially when you get in the tournament where you face more athletic teams, and quicker guards.
This is embarrassing how outclassed Iowa is regarding talent and athleticism. Then you have Fran who thinks he gets a bonus for each timeout he doesn't use.
This is embarrassing how outclassed Iowa is regarding talent and athleticism. Then you have Fran who thinks he gets a bonus for each timeout he doesn't use.
Still don't have the PG, and still have Fran's lousy coaching (mostly in-game) to contend with.
If I'm Barta I'm surveying the college basketball coaching world. Get chummy with lots of asst coaches, or head coaches at smaller schools. Need to prepare that next year might be Fran's last. Every coach Barta talks to should be viewed though the lens of how would this coach look at Iowa and what could he do for the program.
Rankings/stars/scholarship offers don't matter, at least according to 90% of the Fran apologists.
Well clearly when you have 2 guards who cannot score or dribble drive, you are pretty much sacrificing the 'offensive' impact of these two positions. Fortunately we have the duo of Williams and Bohannon to right the ship next year. If this doesn't set off an alarm in Fran's head to go get a juco or 5th year transfer, I don't know what will.
Are there 6'4" point guards who can dribble, shoot and dish who want to come to Iowa? I've never seen one in the 50 years I've followed Iowa BB.
I agree with others that I just do not understand why Fran and his staff don't see the bleeping glaring need for a better guard. I don't buy 'they have tried and missed' because while that may be the case with Ulis and others, we would benefit exponentially from a Washpun type player. It doesn't matter how many spot up shooters we have when they have a guy inside their jersey and can't get a shot off because we don't have anyone to penetrate. Think this is bogus, did you catch what Kenny Smith said at the half? Exactly this.
Don't worry it will all get better when bohannon and Mccaffery get here. That's extremely heavy on the sarcasm. Mccaffery was completely overwhelmed by des Moines Hoover's athleticism and bohannon is Gesell all over again.
This is Iowa sports. The land of stubbornness. That was the most embarrassing NCAA tournament performance I've literally ever watched but we won't do anything different. I can't imagine there's much on earth more frustrating than being a Hawkeye fan. I'm afraid we've seen the best of what Fran can do in Iowa City.
Hey now, if you're a wrestling board member, you're not allowed to come over here and post negative things about the coaches.....or at least that's how they think it's suppose to work.
But if you're a basketball or a football board frequenter, then you can go ahead and continue to mock people by calling them apologists........
Just sayin.
Actually, Gesell and Clemmons have done this before, but ya see..............they usually try to shoot the ball instead of looking to kick it.
Clemmons had 4 f***ing people step in to block his shot and he was gonna take it no matter what.
That was a bigger problem to me than having some NBA caliber guard that can break everyone down and score 20 points with 8 assists a game and no turnovers.
Agreed 100%. These kids coming in better be ready to give something cause he's going to need their help. Good luck Fran.
Hell, I'd take a 5'10" PG if he has the quickness to get to the rim and finish, and/or can shoot the 3 ball. I'm watching little PG's from these smaller schools absolutely give fits to the big boys. This isn't the NBA where you can post the small PG down low in isolation. Play zone if they try to exploit the size disadvantage.
Kenny doesn't know what he's talking about . He's never coached D1 bball. We have grade school and high school coaches here who know tons more than Kenny or Kenyon Murray. Fran is never wrong, so we should never question his recruiting or coaching decisions.
Guards were out matched, and Woody needed to be on the bench in this game. With Nova having so much athleticism it was apparent that Woody was another liability on the floor. Williams comes in and knocks down a 3, but made a poor decision pushing the ball against numbers after the Nova turnover, only to throw it away. Of course, Gessel and Clemmons can dribble the ball off of their feet and turn it over, but let Williams make a mistake and Fran gives him the hook.
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To be fair Gesell and Woodbury where both 4 stars. Two 4 stars in 2016 class. One 4 star 2017. One 4 star in 2018. Recruiting is picking up. The Uhl class is looking really bad right now though. Uhl, Ellingson and Dickerson.
If they can break down slow white kids from Iowa, you know they can do the same against athletic PGs in the B1G. Fran is so clueless in recruiting guards, which is amazing since he was a guard. If he recruits a "shooting" guard, the guy is so unathletic and such a poor defender there's no way you can play the kid for any minutes. For PGs Fran brings in guys who can't shoot a lick, but worse they have little/no quickness so they aren't a threat to drive into the lane. They do dribble the ball well along the perimeter and they do play play good defense against the PG that aren't overly quick.
Either Fran makes drastic coaching changes, or hires a new asst(s) or he's likely going to be looking for a new job in a couple years.
Fran's favoritism this year was a big
mystery to me. Clemmons and Gesell played like crap a whole lot of games this year and Fran gave them a huge leash.
I'm still baffled by the MG. How does a kid who can't break anyone down off the dribble, and has the worst looking shot I've ever seen for a guard, become a 4 star recruit? Woody I understand more because of his size and ability to get up and down the floor.
Cook is a 4 star recruit in 2016, who's the other one? The 2017 4 star recruit is his kid. If he can't get his kid to come to Iowa then Fran should call it quits. 2018 is too far down the road to know how that kid will be his senior year in hs.
I've never complained about Fran's ability to bring in wings, big men. It's guards where he looks lost in space. Iowa's guards have been bad/terrible outside of AC and MG, and they are avg, at best. College basketball is all about the guards. Guys who can handle the ball, beat people off the dribble and shoot beyond the arc. Hell, we've seen SFAustin play with 4-5 guards in their lineup and pull off a major upset in the 1st round and giving ND all they can handle in the 2nd round.
Yes, but his bench was terrible. He had no options to replace one of them with. Now, that's Fran's fault for doing a terrible job bringing in quality guards to serve as backups or starters, but given Fran screwed the pooch in recruiting, I can't blame him for not going to the bench over AC and MG. Ellingson makes anyone look like Jordan when he's "defending" him. I'm not sure I can remember an Iowa player who played worse defense than that kid.
Have to say that the end to this season has done a lot to undermine my confidence in Fran with respect to coaching, recruiting, and player development. I get where we were when he recruited these guys, but he has had 3 years to add talent and hasn't. It's more project recruits, guys who need to add 20 pounds, or moving somebody to a spot they have never played before because we missed out on another recruit.
The reality is that when you a program like Iowa, you need to get some juco players or graduate transfers to fill key spots not met in recruiting. Apparently Fran is either opposed to this approach or thinks he can coach guys up. All the experience on this staff and we can't get a true PF, a legit PG or SG in what, year 6? Illinois and Missouri stink, so we should be making hay in those states, but instead we double down on in-state kids.
This isn't about schemes and guys missing assignments, it's about a lack of talent and lack of a winning culture. I am OK losing in the second round to better teams, but the last two years, we have been blown out by midway through the first half because we are so overwhelmed athletically. It's turning into a joke with Fran and his incessant spin about intensity, execution and the game plan. Simple fix....get some better players in here. Villanova killed us in the paint, from 3, on the glass, turnovers, defensively and with execution. It's not like there was anything redeeming to take from the game, much like last year against Gonzaga.....absolutely dominated from the tip.
The reality is that when you a program like Iowa, you need to get some juco players or graduate transfers to fill key spots not met in recruiting. Apparently Fran is either opposed to this approach or thinks he can coach guys up. All the experience on this staff and we can't get a true PF, a legit PG or SG in what, year 6? Illinois and Missouri stink, so we should be making hay in those states, but instead we double down on in-state kids.
This isn't about schemes and guys missing assignments, it's about a lack of talent and lack of a winning culture. I am OK losing in the second round to better teams, but the last two years, we have been blown out by midway through the first half because we are so overwhelmed athletically. It's turning into a joke with Fran and his incessant spin about intensity, execution and the game plan. Simple fix....get some better players in here. Villanova killed us in the paint, from 3, on the glass, turnovers, defensively and with execution. It's not like there was anything redeeming to take from the game, much like last year against Gonzaga.....absolutely dominated from the tip.
Excellent point on Williams. It didn't take a genius to see early on that we needed a smaller quicker lineup on the floor and more than 1 ball handler. MG got thrown to the wolves with no other guard help out there.
The progression of Gesell under Fran is a head scratcher. His shooting got worse as his career went on. Clemmons had great progression through his career but he's not a 2 and not a starter. Fran hasn't really developed players offensive post game while he's been at Iowa. So I don't know if that's on Fran or Woody but Woody's progression as a player has been good. Liked Uthoff's progression too. I think Fran's done a good job progressing players but that doesn't seem to be the case with Gesell.
I agree with you on most things, but Fran is not going to get fired after next year. Not going to happen with arguably his best two classes set to come in. Mark it down he is here at least 4 more years prolly 5-6, unless he chooses to leave.
I think we can all agree that getting over the top is going to take better players overall and / or possibly a little luck like getting Iona & ARK LR in your first 2 games due to an upset.
The other issue is playing in the B1G, although down some this year, is going to be tough most years to get those really good seeds. Just like under TD we are going to have a lot of middle of the pack to slightly better finishes which lend themselves to seeds of 6 or higher. Not impossible but we will be seeing a heavy weight a round earlier than a lower seed to get to the sweet 16.
I think the key is Fran has to continually assess where his program is at and how to get it to the sweet 16 / magical run on occasion. He's identified some really, really good under-the-radar players early on only to lose out as they blew up and the big dogs came calling. He could do what he is doing and there could be points in time where we get lucky and we finally get a couple of those guys and/or they slip through. Those teams would be our magical run teams but does our fan base have patience.
The other issue is playing in the B1G, although down some this year, is going to be tough most years to get those really good seeds. Just like under TD we are going to have a lot of middle of the pack to slightly better finishes which lend themselves to seeds of 6 or higher. Not impossible but we will be seeing a heavy weight a round earlier than a lower seed to get to the sweet 16.
I think the key is Fran has to continually assess where his program is at and how to get it to the sweet 16 / magical run on occasion. He's identified some really, really good under-the-radar players early on only to lose out as they blew up and the big dogs came calling. He could do what he is doing and there could be points in time where we get lucky and we finally get a couple of those guys and/or they slip through. Those teams would be our magical run teams but does our fan base have patience.
Think about your statement. 2nd round tourney game of the NCAAs. Our program is pretty good. Scholarship or not doesn't matter Bear could be at UNI right now killing us for the next 3 years so lucky to have him.
Both Gesell and Clemmons would be excellent backups but neither one should be starting on a good team, they certainly both shouldn't be starting. I don't know if Fran doesn't know how to develop guards, or he's just a terrible recruiter of them because this has been a sore spot throughout Fran's tenure. I don't get it and it's the most important position in college basketball. I don't really have a huge problem with the other position although he needs a true PF, someone who can bang on the board, get rebounds and push people out of the lane. We are too thin inside. The big problem has been and continues to be less than quality guard play. The talent level needs a major upgrade at the PG and SG positions or Iowa is never going deep in the tourney.
Depends on what happens. Never say never. If he sh*** the bed next season he's on a very hot seat. The natives are getting restless with 2 meltdowns in 3 years. He'll have to make the NCAA tournament in either of the next 2 years or he's gone. We don't know what he's got coming in. People were talking about Fleming being the 2nd coming and he didn't do squat this season. Williams was a another one who was going to be a head turner and as awful as our guards played, Fran never let the kid play. Either Fran is a really dumb coach, the most stubborn coach in the world, or he didn't feel Williams was ready, at least at this point.
Wow do you overreact much? Or you don't watch much basketball. I can remember Iowa losses in the NCAA as bad if not worse than this game. Do you remember Duke passing the ball over the Dr's press for layups over and over and over and over. And Bohannon is already a better shooter than Gesell so there goes that comparison. Not to mention the Bohannon family has had a little success playing college basketball so I am guessing he will be ok. If you really are a basketball coach, I would love to go to one of your games so I could bitch and moan about every decision that you make.
There aren't many 5'10" PGs playing in the B1G. I would imagine by the end of the year they would be pretty beat up. I know there have been some great ones (Billy Keller, Scott Skiles), but they are very rare.
We don't need great ones, I'll settle for a PG who's above avg, even avg if Fran could bring in some good SG's. There are plenty of 5'10" guards who are able to beat guys off the dribble. This is what Iowa has lacked Fran's entire time at Iowa. Iowa's had guards who couldn't shoot beyond the arc, and have little/no quickness so they can't ever get into the lane. If you can't drive you reduce the number of times you get to the FT line, you also can't drive and kick which usually results in wide open 3's by your shooters. If you have a "Jordan" at the SG, then you have someone who can drive and shoot, so you can settle for a MG type player at the point who only has to run the offense and play D.
Hey, I'm not choosy. If Fran can find a quick PG who's 6'3", then all the better. Just stop recruiting PG's who are plodders, who don't have a 2nd gear. We need a PG who can blow by his opponent when needed, and also guard the quick guards. MG and AC looked like they were running in sand trying to beat their man off the dribble. It's like finding a Derby horse. If your horse is a plodder or grinder who doesn't have another gear, a quick burst to split a hole in a 20 horse field, then he likely isn't going to win the Derby. Iowa needs a PG who runs like a Derby winner, not like the horse who wins a $50K claiming race.
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Just curious, how much more time does Fran need to build a team that can compete in March? Outside of an NIT run a few years ago Iowa has not really competed in March. Beating an undersized Davidson team or being gifted by a no call into beating Temple is not competing. Fran had 4 years to take a team with two 4 star, top 100 recruits and get them ready to compete in March.
In addition, how much growth has Iowa experienced over the last 3 years? I know they have back-to-back 12-6 conference seasons (unbalanced scheduling contributes to that) and back-to-back Round of 64 wins, but they also have back-to-back woodshed drubbings in the round of 32 (games which they were clearly inferior to their opponent). If the 3 of the four seniors improved under Fran's coaching, it was negligible at best. I am having trouble seeing the growth that some are purporting, I see a 25-13 year (which was padded by a cupcake schedule that was why they were in the NIT), 20-13 year (which ended with the late season collapse and an early exit from the NCAA Tournament via the play in game and getting bull rushed in the B1G Tournament by Northwestern), 22-12 year (which included another bull rush by PSU, in the B1G a Round of 64 victory and a total pasting by Gonzaga in the Round of 32), and finally this year Iowa goes 22-10 (which includes another bull rush in the B1G this time to Illinois, a victory in the Round of 64 and a worse drubbing in the Round of 32). Please forgive me but the team results growth is about a negligible as the individual player growth. Just saying that the team is growing does not make it so. I would characterize Iowa under Fran as a team that grew in year 2 and 3 and then plateaued in seasons 4, 5, and 6. Just my take on it.
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