Historian Ken Burns weighs in on the Confederacy and race (title changed)

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So the southern states did not see the owning of slaves to be their right to determine or not determine to continue? You can look at this way too, the north did not go to battle in order to end slavery. If the north had routed the rebels at Bull Run, the war probably would have been over in 1861, but slavery would have still continued.

Had the southern states not seceded at all slavery would have likely continued for a while longer.

Had they stopped and signed onto the Corwin Amendment we could have seen slavery for a very long time in the South as it's extremely difficult to rid yourself of a constitutional amendment like that.

 

[strummingram]

If symbols are just symbols then you won't mind at all if I tell you to go eff yourself, right? Words are just symbols afterall.

Fine with me. You can say it a hundred times. You're using words with the intent to insult and offend. The words are just your tool for conveying your contempt. The actual contempt, and where it originates, and how it is arrived at, is what is harmful. The words themselves are harmless. They always have been, they always will be.

 

[strummingram]

BS. How is choosing to fly a racist flag NOT an action, pray tell? Words are merely symbols as well...but you can choose what to say.

I guess because he doesn't find it to be racist. More importantly, he, himself, is not racist (as clearly displayed in his frequent participation on the board).

If you know me, and you know me well enough that you KNOW I am not a racially prejudiced person; and then one day you see me wearing a swastika on my shirt- but my attitudes and actions still remain soundly in never being prejudiced toward any other human being- am I a racist person because of the design on my clothes? It would really help you people immensely to recognize actual racially prejudiced actions and attitudes toward people instead of crying and whining over symbols that you've become accustomed to associating with those attitudes and actions.

 

[fredjr82]

Who is Ken Burns and why should I give a flying you know what on what he says??

BAU for rocketclone

 

[strummingram]

What if I pork a sex doll with a picture of your mother on it while using the American flag for cleanup? All cool?

Couldn't care less. Use ONLY American Flags to clean up for all I care.

Again, the animosity and insult is in your attempt to denigrate me by insulting my mother. I was slightly bothered by that in the 3rd grade. But, I moved on from it. And, anyway, the sex dolls with my mom's picture are probably way out of your price range.

 

[txhawk I]

Didn't watch the video. Did Kenny talk about William Ellison, Jr. or all the other Black slave owners or just the white ones?

 

[Huey Grey]

Couldn't care less. Use ONLY American Flags to clean up for all I care.

Again, the animosity and insult is in your attempt to denigrate me by insulting my mother. I was slightly bothered by that in the 3rd grade. But, I moved on from it. And, anyway, the sex dolls with my mom's picture are probably way out of your price range.

The ones with her mouth hole wide open aren't.

 

[strummingram]

The ones with her mouth hole wide open aren't.

Well, you'd know better than anyone what your budget for sex dolls includes. I'm glad you've found one you like. I'm sure she appreciates the business and profit. Buy more. Use Confederate Flags, American Flags, and the Iowa state flag and my grandmother's prayer veil if it makes you feel superior.

 

[Huey Grey]

Well, you'd know better than anyone what your budget for sex dolls includes. I'm glad you've found one you like. I'm sure she appreciates the business and profit. Buy more. Use Confederate Flags, American Flags, and the Iowa state flag and my grandmother's prayer veil if it makes you feel superior.

I just think it's odd that you think that words are meaningless. Most people would argue otherwise, but to each their own.

 

[strummingram]

I just think it's odd that you think that words are meaningless. Most people would argue otherwise, but to each their own.

Words obviously have meaning. But, the words themselves are never harmful... NEVER! They're merely words. All that matters is context and intent of the user. You displayed how a person can USE the words and try to insult, offend and project a childish attitude, possessed by someone with a clear inferiority complex, in order to try and feel like they're better and smarter. You're obviously not either, but you did give me a great example to illustrate how the use of words, and the intent of the user- and not just the words themselves- are all that really count! Thank you!

I could take those same words and form a totally different context and depict an opposite scenario. The words are versatile and useful. Censoring words and symbols is just that - censorship. I hate censorship.

 

[strummingram]

Kiting doesn't associate racial prejudice to that flag. He never exhibits racial prejudice, nor does he ever endorse anyone else doing that. So, if you insist on making him racist by the existence of a symbol, that other racists have used, by his name as wiping away what you truly know about him and replacing it with the behavior of the other racists... I'd say you're the one that is actually exhibiting prejudiced attitudes. The symbol is just a symbol. The marginalizing of a person based on something aesthetic and overlooking their actual attitudes, actions and ideas, is a clear sign of the basis of racism... then you can all count yourselves as being racist. By the way, every human drawing breath has racial tendencies. It's just a matter of degree, or extreme, that you feel the need to take it, or are upset by it in other people.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Fine with me. You can say it a hundred times. You're using words with the intent to insult and offend. The words are just your tool for conveying your contempt. The actual contempt, and where it originates, and how it is arrived at, is what is harmful. The words themselves are harmless. They always have been, they always will be.

Then they should stop whining when they are judged for their actions...but they don't. And here you are, as well.

 

[Slenderson]

If you have been on this board for any length of time you should realize that I am not a racist by any stretch of the imagination.

I display the flag for pride of my southern heritage, protest against oppressive federal government, and to point out the double standard you are currently applying.

You have made assumptions that at no different than those made by racists. I am a southerner, and I am proud of it. If that makes you think less of me, it is no different than thinking less of a proud black person.

It's amazing that an ignorance can run so deep that it actually has its own integrity.

 

[strummingram]

Then they should stop whining when they are judged for their actions...but they don't. And here you are, as well.

Well, I'm not sure he was whining so much as stating his case. Maybe you were as well and my choice of "whining" was a mistake. You're not judging HIS actions, either. You're judging him based on others' actions.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Words obviously have meaning. But, the words themselves are never harmful... NEVER! They're merely words. All that matters is context and intent of the user. You displayed how a person can USE the words and try to insult, offend and project a childish attitude, possessed by someone with a clear inferiority complex, in order to try and feel like they're better and smarter. You're obviously not either, but you did give me a great example to illustrate how the use of words, and the intent of the user- and not just the words themselves- are all that really count! Thank you!

I could take those same words and form a totally different context and depict an opposite scenario. The words are versatile and useful. Censoring words and symbols is just that - censorship. I hate censorship.

Who said anything about censorship? Anyone who wishes can fly that hateful flag. I'll fully support their right to do so even while I exercise my freedom to judge them. You want to defend the one while attacking the other. It's hypocritical. Your attempt to paint those who judge as having "a childish attitude, possessed by someone with a clear inferiority complex, in order to try and feel like they're better and smarter" is YOU judging. That's hypocritical, as well.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Well, I'm not sure he was whining so much as stating his case. Maybe you were as well and my choice of "whining" was a mistake. You're not judging HIS actions, either. You're judging him based on others' actions.

No one is forced to fly that flag in celebration of their "southern heritage". That's a choice.

 

[thewop]

Conservatives say the Civil War was about states rights? Really? They'd have been a lot of southerners who have said that, but I would label them as racist.

I'm with you SC, while it's easy to try to turn every issue to a con/lib issue, this one isn't. In fact, many "Southern Democrats" have descendants who to this day vote Democrat because their grandparents and parents did, and they don't really pay attention to what politicians actually stand for. These Democrats would most certainly be in support of the confederate flag's use. I live in a confederate state, and know a few like this.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I guess because he doesn't find it to be racist. More importantly, he, himself, is not racist (as clearly displayed in his frequent participation on the board).

If you know me, and you know me well enough that you KNOW I am not a racially prejudiced person; and then one day you see me wearing a swastika on my shirt- but my attitudes and actions still remain soundly in never being prejudiced toward any other human being- am I a racist person because of the design on my clothes? It would really help you people immensely to recognize actual racially prejudiced actions and attitudes toward people instead of crying and whining over symbols that you've become accustomed to associating with those attitudes and actions.

So wearing a white sheet with KKK emblazoned on it doesn't make you appear a racist? Those ARE just symbols after all. And language is symbolic as well so yelling "Ni**er, Ni**er, Ni**er" when you see black people doesn't NECESSARILY make you a racist...right? You should be judged on...what?...a brain scan?

You protest far too much.

 

[LifelongHawk]

Kiting doesn't associate racial prejudice to that flag. He never exhibits racial prejudice, nor does he ever endorse anyone else doing that. So, if you insist on making him racist by the existence of a symbol, that other racists have used, by his name as wiping away what you truly know about him and replacing it with the behavior of the other racists... I'd say you're the one that is actually exhibiting prejudiced attitudes. The symbol is just a symbol. The marginalizing of a person based on something aesthetic and overlooking their actual attitudes, actions and ideas, is a clear sign of the basis of racism... then you can all count yourselves as being racist. By the way, every human drawing breath has racial tendencies. It's just a matter of degree, or extreme, that you feel the need to take it, or are upset by it in other people.

Since you are taking up the mantle of defending the transparent rationalizations of displaying the banner of white supremacy and treason, what say you to these inquiries?

Regardless of what Kiting intends or associates, he KNOWS that the symbol does in fact represent racism to many, most to be fair (when and why did SC begin to fly it again?). Kiting therefore unequivocally knows that it supports and fosters the sentiments of racist Caucasians who see the proud display, and also knows it fosters feelings of resentment and anger of African-Americans (with damn good cause). What in the world do you call intentionally doing an act knowing that it furthers white supremacy and black anger? Um, racism if you are honest. Or if you are unable to reach that conclusion, you cannot escape that it sure as hell enables racism on both sides of the color wheel, hardly a rational source of pride.

Kiting's true nature and heart are of course the gravamen of being a racist, and are entirely unknown to me. But actions speak louder than words. So I don't give a rats ass whether Kiting's heart is racist and what his real motives are or are claimed to be, his actions of the proud display further and exacerbate racism and that makes him part of the problem.

Kiting should take down the damn flag, it is offensive. You should stop giving cover and excuse to true racists who use the banner in the exact same fashion as does Kiting, because that makes you also part of the problem.

 

[Huey Grey]

Words obviously have meaning. But, the words themselves are never harmful... NEVER! They're merely words. All that matters is context and intent of the user. You displayed how a person can USE the words and try to insult, offend and project a childish attitude, possessed by someone with a clear inferiority complex, in order to try and feel like they're better and smarter. You're obviously not either, but you did give me a great example to illustrate how the use of words, and the intent of the user- and not just the words themselves- are all that really count! Thank you!

I could take those same words and form a totally different context and depict an opposite scenario. The words are versatile and useful. Censoring words and symbols is just that - censorship. I hate censorship.

I call bullshit on all of this. Here's what I think. I think you are so singularly focused on proving that the Confederate Flag isn't racist that you're willing to pretend that all symbols are not racist, and willing to take this one step further by arguing that all symbols period, are not harmful. Obviously words are harmful. They hurt. And unless you have some sort of severe autism, they hurt even you.

I'm quite certain that you've been called names in your life or that someone has flipped you off in traffic and it has stirred you up. You reacted negatively to it. How do I know this? Because these are experiences pretty much all of us have had. So what i think you're really doing is to focus so much on your argument that the Confederate flag isn't racist that you inadvertently had to shoehorn yourself into the plainly wrong idea that all symbols, including words, must also be hurtful.

They are not harmless. They can actually be very harmful and any psychologist would tell you the same.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Kiting's true nature and heart are of course the gravamen of being a racist, and are entirely unknown to me. But actions speak louder than words. So I don't give a rats ass whether Kiting's heart is racist and what his real motives are or are claimed to be, his actions of the proud display further and exacerbate racism and that makes him part of the problem.

Kiting should take down the damn flag, it is offensive. You should stop giving cover and excuse to true racists who use the banner in the exact same fashion as does Kiting, because that makes you also part of the problem.

Slow clap.

 

[strummingram]

I call bullshit on all of this. Here's what I think. I think you are so singularly focused on proving that the Confederate Flag isn't racist that you're willing to pretend that all symbols are not racist, and willing to take this one step further by arguing that all symbols period, are not harmful. Obviously words are harmful. They hurt. And unless you have some sort of severe autism, they hurt even you.

I'm quite certain that you've been called names in your life or that someone has flipped you off in traffic and it has stirred you up. You reacted negatively to it. How do I know this? Because these are experiences pretty much all of us have had. So what i think you're really doing is to focus so much on your argument that the Confederate flag isn't racist that you inadvertently had to shoehorn yourself into the plainly wrong idea that all symbols, including words, must also be hurtful.

They are not harmless. They can actually be very harmful and any psychologist would tell you the same.

Call bullshit all you like.

The WORDS that were used to hurt me were not what hurt me! It was the INTENT of the person who was TRYING TO HURT ME! You ever heard this "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" It's an age-old proverb that is absolutely true.

The flag is NOT racist, the PEOPLE using it can be, and have been, but not all of them are. I will bet your sex dolls that I can find psychologists to agree with me completely.

 

[rocketclone]

BAU for rocketclone

Why should I know who Ken Burns is. Sounds like a liber that likes to hear himself talk.

 

[Huey Grey]

Call bullshit all you like.

The WORDS that were used to hurt me were not what hurt me! It was the INTENT of the person who was TRYING TO HURT ME! You ever heard this "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" It's an age-old proverb that is absolutely true.

The flag is NOT racist, the PEOPLE using it can be, and have been, but not all of them are. I will bet your sex dolls that I can find psychologists to agree with me completely.

I'm not sure you understand what a symbol is. It's a representation of something real which means that if I fly a Confederate flag, my intent might be to show the world that I reject the Civil War's results and still think that the Union had no right to tell the Southern States that they could not own slaves. How are you not getting this?

 

[Huey Grey]

In other words, how can you separate the words themselves from their intent?

 

[fredjr82]

Why should I know who Ken Burns is. Sounds like a liber that likes to hear himself talk.

Well maybe you should tune in on 9/7/2015 and educate yourself. We know you won't but want to at least offer the opportunity.

#NOISUFANLEFTBEHIND

http://www.pbs.org/civilwar/

 

[rocketclone]

Well maybe you should tune in on 9/7/2015 and educate yourself. We know you won't but want to at least offer the opportunity.

#NOISUFANLEFTBEHIND

http://www.pbs.org/civilwar/

So yet another academic, like the ones we have in charge now who likes doing propaganda films for Public Tv. I love you guys who love your academics. I had to listen to a Harvard Professor this morning tell me to make things fun in the office by dressing up and playing the guitar.

You can keep them, they have been doing a fine job of running the country. Like the guy who helped craft the Health Care Bill, just tell them this, and they will believe it.

Sounds like you fall into that category.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So yet another academic, like the ones we have in charge now who likes doing propaganda films for Public Tv. I love you guys who love your academics. I had to listen to a Harvard Professor this morning tell me to make things fun in the office by dressing up and playing the guitar.

You can keep them, they have been doing a fine job of running the country. Like the guy who helped craft the Health Care Bill, just tell them this, and they will believe it.

Sounds like you fall into that category.

 

[strummingram]

I'm not sure you understand what a symbol is. It's a representation of something real which means that if I fly a Confederate flag, my intent might be to show the world that I reject the Civil War's results and still think that the Union had no right to tell the Southern States that they could not own slaves. How are you not getting this?

Because not everyone has the same message or attitude or philosophy tied to the flag or symbol that you have. As THBB pointed out; if you use something that many people associate a certain attitude with, then be prepared to explain yourself or be misunderstood. But, that doesn't have to dissuade you from using the symbol that you DON'T find offensive and that you DON'T apply or associate the negative aspects.

While you're running around trying to ban and censor language and symbols, there are more clever racially-prejudiced people out doing REAL prejudiced actions, only they don't use the symbols you're afraid of.

How are you not getting this?

 

[KitingHigh]

Thanks Strumm for backing me. I don't have the time today to go through this thread again. We've already covered it all numerous times anyway. Some minds are simply not open enough to get it, and can only see things in black and white (pun intended).

I will point out, once again that the majority of people see the flag as a symbol of Southern pride rather than a symbol of racism. Those claiming it can only mean racism are out in left field.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/

 

[strummingram]

In other words, how can you separate the words themselves from their intent?

Because words don't speak by themselves! Are that thick-skulled? The words NEVER "have intent!" Words are not alive! The words merely have meanings that we've typically assigned to them. And, therefore the PEOPLE "have intent" and they USE the words to convey that. The words are innocent! The words are just verbal vessels for humans to convey their thoughts. The thoughts can be good, bad, harmful, insulting, affectionate, etc. That is all up to the person, the user, and their intent!

The WORDS are just words.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Because not everyone has the same message or attitude or philosophy tied to the flag or symbol that you have. As THBB pointed out; if you use something that many people associate a certain attitude with, then be prepared to explain yourself or be misunderstood. But, that doesn't have to dissuade you from using the symbol that you DON'T find offensive and that you DON'T apply or associate the negative aspects.

While you're running around trying to ban and censor language and symbols, there are more clever racially-prejudiced people out doing REAL prejudiced actions, only they don't use the symbols you're afraid of.

How are you not getting this?

The flag has one meaning...it was flown by states in rebellion against the United States in defense of slavery. To paraphrase Bill S, you can call a pile of shyte a rose...it's still a pile of shyte. You can believe in your heart of hearts that it doesn't stink...it still stinks.

How are you not getting this?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Because not everyone has the same message or attitude or philosophy tied to the flag or symbol that you have. As THBB pointed out; if you use something that many people associate a certain attitude with, then be prepared to explain yourself or be misunderstood. But, that doesn't have to dissuade you from using the symbol that you DON'T find offensive and that you DON'T apply or associate the negative aspects.

While you're running around trying to ban and censor language and symbols, there are more clever racially-prejudiced people out doing REAL prejudiced actions, only they don't use the symbols you're afraid of.

How are you not getting this?

Thanks Strumm for backing me. I don't have the time today to go through this thread again. We've already covered it all numerous times anyway. Some minds are simply not open enough to get it, and can only see things in black and white (pun intended).

I will point out, once again that the majority of people see the flag as a symbol of Southern pride rather than a symbol of racism. Those claiming it can only mean racism are out in left field.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/

The fact that people see it as a symbol of southern pride doesn't make the view reasonable when one considers history.

All it means is the neo-confederate lost causers have managed to convince enough people of their false version of history.

 

[strummingram]

The flag has one meaning...it was flown by states in rebellion against the United States in defense of slavery. To paraphrase Bill S, you can call a pile of shyte a rose...it's still a pile of shyte. You can believe in your heart of hearts that it doesn't stink...it still stinks.

How are you not getting this?

Yes, it was flown by the Southern States. The fact that it was flown is not "it's meaning." You have an aversion to it... fine. You have an aversion to a long list of trivial sh*t. It exhibits a human weakness that I am so glad I'm impervious to. You even like to feign some superiority over these abundant sensitivities you suffer from.

Your opinion is that it stinks. Fine. You're perfectly free to have that opinion.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I will point out, once again that the majority of people see the flag as a symbol of Southern pride rather than a symbol of racism. Those claiming it can only mean racism are out in left field.

In what is your pride invested? That flag was flown by rebellious states in defense of slavery. The you take pride in that is either bizarre or racist. If you fly that flag, accept what it means...you can call it whatever you like but it doesn't change what the flag IS.

 

[strummingram]

The fact that people see it as a symbol of southern pride doesn't make the view reasonable when one considers history.

NO one is asking you, or forcing you, to consider history! That's the whole point from my perspective! You're the one associating your opinion of a historical context to it. Kiting even sites a southern heritage to it. I don't associate even that much, really. I just think it looks cool!

I have a good friend and fellow musician who just turned 60. He grew up in NJ and lived there until maybe 10 years ago. We started talking about the flag issue and he said "Man, I remember being in history class and first seeing that flag and thinking 'I wish our flag had looked as cool as that one!' " A completely different approach and association to it, and from a VERY northern origin! Not everyone is looking for some social sensitivity to attach to every damned thing in our culture. You people that do are trying to impose some faux-politeness that goes well beyond reason and caters to weakness!

 

[preshlock]

That's also not WHY he's displaying the flag. He's not racially prejudiced. So, the win is in my mind because it is a win. Symbols of something are not the something... they're merely symbols.

What would you think about a person wearing a Swastika in a Synagogue? The South was on the wrong side of history and the country is better off the North won.

 

[GPRHAWK]

I'm pretty sure everyone will tell you that I'm by no means a liberal.

The civil war was about slavery and that's it.

It was not about state's rights. The south openly complained that Northern states where ignoring the fugitive slave act. . . a federal law forcing northern states to hunt down the south's escaping slaves and return them to their owners. If they where for states rights they would have opposed the fugitive slave act and applauded the north for ignoring the federal law and standing up for their state's rights. But no the South was all about infringing on the North's states rights when it was in benefit to the South to do so. They also applauded the Dread Scott decision which made it so the North no longer have the state's rights to state by law that slaves entering their state with the master are now by law free because *slavery is illegal in our state*. So essentially the only state rights the North had was to make the buying and selling of slaves in their states illegal.

The confederate battle flag is a flag representation of an army that fought for the rebel group known as "The Confederate States of America" or CSA for short. This rebel group was created for the express purpose of forcing the independence of the Southern states so as to protect slavery.

Poor people fought in that war because they felt that maybe they could get rich and own a slave too and because they where told that if we let the slaves free they would just run around raping all the white women.

These "southern heritage" banners didn't really start going up all over the South until some blacks started protesting for their right to be humans and vote. That's when South Carolina felt they needed a "southern pride" banner on their state capitol building and when schools started getting re-named after rebel war leaders and founders of the Ku Klux Klan.

It's not a liberal/conservative thing. . . it's a fact of history. Choosing to ignore this reality doesn't make it not a reality.

But the South is pretty good at ignoring reality. In my experience they are really good at ignoring the fact that they as a practice denied black people the protection of the law and often time used the law unjustly against them. 14 year old kid would look at a white woman wrong and the whole town mayor, sheriff and everyone would come out for a lynching. Then a few of them might go down to the dinner for some coffee and share a laugh or two about that time that Billy planted a bomb and blew up some little black girls who where at choir practice.

THIS WASN'T LONG AGO, MY MOTHER WHO IS STILL ALIVE WAS OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THIS CRAP. Fortunately for her she was in Iowa, which of course I'm sure had it's fair share of racists but at least they didn't hold public lynchings and blow up black churches and subtly make these actions legal and acceptable via jury nullification.

Stop researching things and throwing out a bunch of facts. That's not acceptable here.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Yes, it was flown by the Southern States. The fact that it was flown is not "it's meaning." You have an aversion to it... fine. You have an aversion to a long list of trivial sh*t. It exhibits a human weakness that I am so glad I'm impervious to. You even like to feign some superiority over these abundant sensitivities you suffer from.

Your opinion is that it stinks. Fine. You're perfectly free to have that opinion.

Yet when that opinion is expressed YOU take umbrage and rush to defend? If you have no aversion to my opinion or that of others on this thread...why are you so invested in attacking it? I'm sure you don't regard THAT as a sign of human weakness. You're a hypocrite.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

NO one is asking you, or forcing you, to consider history! That's the whole point from my perspective! You're the one associating your opinion of a historical context to it. Kiting even sites a southern heritage to it. I don't associate even that much, really. I just think it looks cool!

I have a good friend and fellow musician who just turned 60. He grew up in NJ and lived there until maybe 10 years ago. We started talking about the flag issue and he said "Man, I remember being in history class and first seeing that flag and thinking 'I wish our flag had looked as cool as that one!' " A completely different approach and association to it, and from a VERY northern origin! Not everyone is looking for some social sensitivity to attach to every damned thing in our culture. You people that do are trying to impose some faux-politeness that goes well beyond reason and caters to weakness!

How is one to consider things outside of the context of history and reality?

Quite frankly that's ridiculous. Take symbols and ignore history, pretend like you where just born an hour ago or the world just started existing now.

What is the point of the symbol if you have to divorce it from all it's historical meaning?

I got a really great idea. . . forget history forget everything you've ever learned. Then find a bottle of some stuff that has this symbol on it.

And take a nice big swig of it. . . Again why should you consider the history of that symbol?? Make your own meaning up. . . I mean that symbol could mean that the contents of the bottle are a favorite drink of pirates. Amiright?

And you know what, the view that the above symbol means the contents of the bottle are a favorite drink of pirates is still MORE reasonable then the idea that the confederate battle flag is a symbol of southern pride completely and entirely detached from slavery and the 100+ years of oppression of African Americans that followed.