Historian Ken Burns weighs in on the Confederacy and race (title changed)

[strummingram]

What would you think about a person wearing a Swastika in a Synagogue? The South was on the wrong side of history and the country is better off the North won.

I'm not arguing that the South was in the right, or that slavery was a good thing, or any of that. I agree 100% that the institution of slavery was one of, if not the most, terrible things this country ever implemented and represented and condoned.

As far as the synagogue thing; Well, see, you're making up a scenario that needs more clarification. Do I KNOW the person well? Does the synagogue know them? Is the person Jewish? If their intent for wearing it is to strike fear in the minds of the members of the synagogue, then I would think they are purposely trying to be offensive and therefore unwelcome. Would it bother me personally? It depends on the details to what I just said! If I saw it, I might even be inclined to walk up and politely say "Hey,man. Why the swastika?" There may be an enlightening answer on the way! There may be an answer that wreaks of "This guy hates Jews for being Jewish." But, if I just assume that because he has a swastika that he must hate Jews, then, on some level, I'm generalizing. It's a legitimate generalization, but I could be find out my generalization was wrong.

 

[strummingram]

Yet when that opinion is expressed YOU take umbrage and rush to defend? If you have no aversion to my opinion or that of others on this thread...why are you so invested in attacking it? I'm sure you don't regard THAT as a sign of human weakness. You're a hypocrite.

I'm only defending the right to display a symbol and not be found guilty on a presumed guilt based on other peoples' actions that were offensive.

Your opinion is different from mine. I'm not "attacking" you, I'm debating you. That's more of your overt sensitivities showing themselves.

 

[strummingram]

How is one to consider things outside of the context of history and reality?

Quite frankly that's ridiculous. Take symbols and ignore history, pretend like you where just born an hour ago or the world just started existing now.

What is the point of the symbol if you have to divorce it from all it's historical meaning?

I got a really great idea. . . forget history forget everything you've ever learned. Then find a bottle of some stuff that has this symbol on it.

And take a nice big swig of it. . . Again why should you consider the history of that symbol?? Make your own meaning up. . . I mean that symbol could mean that the contents of the bottle are a favorite drink of pirates. Amiright?

And you know what, the view that the above symbol means the contents of the bottle are a favorite drink of pirates is still MORE reasonable then the idea that the confederate battle flag is a symbol of southern pride completely and entirely detached from slavery and the 100+ years of oppression of African Americans that followed.

I just don't have these knee-jerk sensitivities to symbols. I'm more disturbed by the knee-jerk reactions other people seem to have OF the symbols. For the record, I think the Skull and Crossbones looks cool, too! I don't have some underlying, rigid definition associated with it just upon looking at it or even displaying it.

Sure, you're going to have your past understandings play a role in present understandings, But, symbols, for ME, are nowhere near as dangerous as the people with a pulse that use them. The symbols are just symbols.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I'm only defending the right to display a symbol and not be attacked on a presumed guilt based on other peoples' actions that were offensive.

Your opinion is different from mine. I'm not "attacking" you, I'm debating you. That's more of your overt sensitivities showing themselves.

You have an aversion to it... fine. You have an aversion to a long list of trivial sh*t. It exhibits a human weakness that I am so glad I'm impervious to. You even like to feign some superiority over these abundant sensitivities you suffer from.

Ahhhh...that's you "debating" rather than "attacking". The shyte is getting REAL deep now....you're gonna need a bigger shovel. Give it a rest, hypocrite.

 

[strummingram]

You have an aversion to it... fine. You have an aversion to a long list of trivial sh*t. It exhibits a human weakness that I am so glad I'm impervious to. You even like to feign some superiority over these abundant sensitivities you suffer from.

Ahhhh...that's you "debating" rather than "attacking". The shyte is getting REAL deep now....you're gonna need a bigger shovel. Give it a rest, hypocrite.

If you find that to be an "attack" then you're more sensitive than I ever knew. Grow some thicker skin or go debate other "intellectuals" so as to never hear or read anything that may cause you some unpleasantness. God forbid anyone disagree with you. You do exhibit a multitude of sensitivities to all manner of trivial things. And, yes, you go so far as to feign superiority because of it.I'm being fairly polite here. That is a pretty good example of debate, rather than attack.

Would you like an example of an attack, so you can know how to distinguish the two?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

But, symbols, for ME, are nowhere near as dangerous as the people with a pulse that use them. The symbols are just symbols.

*sigh* So why are you defending "people with a pulse" who USE a symbol of racism and defend it by trying to deny it's history? You are so internally inconsistent that you are trying to make a stand on quicksand.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

If you find that to be an "attack" then you're more sensitive than I ever knew. Grow some thicker skin or go debate other "intellectuals" so as to never hear or read anything that may cause you some unpleasantness. God forbid anyone disagree with you. You do exhibit a multitude of sensitivities to all manner of trivial things. And, yes, you go so far as to feign superiority because of it.

Would you like an example of an attack, so you can know how to distinguish the two?

I'm not disagreeing with you...you have no consistent stand with which to disagree. That I'm pointing that out seems to offend you. Grow some thicker skin or unleash that fearful attack.

 

[preshlock]

I'm not arguing that the South was in the right, or that slavery was a good thing, or any of that. I agree 100% that the institution of slavery was one of, if not the most, terrible things this country ever implemented and represented and condoned.

As far as the synagogue thing; Well, see, you're making up a scenario that needs more clarification. Do I KNOW the person well? Does the synagogue know them? Is the person Jewish? If their intent for wearing it is to strike fear in the minds of the members of the synagogue, then I would think they are purposely trying to be offensive and therefore unwelcome. Would it bother me personally? It depends on the details to what I just said! If I saw it, I might even be inclined to walk up and politely say "Hey,man. Why the swastika?" There may be an enlightening answer on the way! There may be an answer that wreaks of "This guy hates Jews for being Jewish." But, if I just assume that because he has a swastika that he must hate Jews, then, on some level, I'm generalizing. It's a legitimate generalization, but I could be find out my generalization was wrong.

For the record I don't equate the Confederate Battle Flag with the Swastika. I just used the example because it is about as offensive of a one I could think of. Sort of like a man wearing a white rob going to a historically black church. You really seem to be downplaying the role of symbols.

 

[strummingram]

*sigh* So why are you defending "people with a pulse" who USE a symbol of racism and defend it by trying to deny it's history? You are so internally inconsistent that you are trying to make a stand on quicksand.

I'm not defending THEM! I never have defended them. Never once! I'm not even denying the aspects of history that the flag is associated. I have never once defended the people who acted out with violence or other restrictive actions toward any minority group... never! Their use of a flag was their choice to use a flag. I can show you MANY examples of the use of that flag by other entities, historically, that are not ignorant whites trying to restrain blacks.

I simply don't see Kiting's use of it, or display of it, as hard evidence that he is racist. The flag is an inanimate object, so it certainly isn't racist, anymore than a bar of soap or a red-white-and-blue balloon. Why do you keep associating inanimate objects with actions people take? You make it sound like by throwing the flag on a person they will melt away or burn up.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I just don't have these knee-jerk sensitivities to symbols. I'm more disturbed by the knee-jerk reactions other people seem to have OF the symbols. For the record, I think the Skull and Crossbones looks cool, too! I don't have some underlying, rigid definition associated with it just upon looking at it or even displaying it.

Sure, you're going to have your past understandings play a role in present understandings, But, symbols, for ME, are nowhere near as dangerous as the people with a pulse that use them. The symbols are just symbols.

But see the importance comes in an underlying insensitivity that we have towards those people of different social groups.

Let me give you an example. . . Back when that judge in Alabama insisted that he had to have a ten commandments statue in his court, did you support his right to put that symbol in his court?

I didn't and I'm a Christian and I was embarrassed at how many Christians who did. The thing is that symbol for a non Christian can be pretty easily interpreted that this place isn't going to give me a fair hearing due to my religion or lack there of. But many Christians just saw it as Christian judge can't put a symbol of his faith up in his court room. To many Christians he was being stifled, but they couldn't see the point of view of the other social group of anyone else who could reasonably view it as something that would mean they would be judged by Christian and not secular standards.

So as to with the Confederate battle flag. It's been turned into a "southern pride" sort of symbol just recently by many people. But they are almost entirely white and they lack the ability to empathize with people who due to the history of that flag might find it pretty upsetting.

The idea that you can turn the symbol into whatever meaning you want just lacks empathy with those who can look at the history of that symbol and find every reasonable meaning to be pretty darn upsetting. For 100 years the confederate battle flag was a symbol of black oppression and BLACKS freaking knew it. Now white people just re-invent it as a southern pride thing and ignore their feelings about it. And it's not like this crap was a long time ago. . . my mom was a teenager when black people where being oppressed in the South. This isn't something where you can say "I've never met anyone in my life who was even alive then" There is plenty of people who where alive when that flag was being flown at a black lynching or being flown to oppose black people going to the same school as white people.

So for you it's southern pride or whatever. . . For someone else it's the flag they flew when they lynched their grandpa because he wanted to drink out of the wrong water fountain or said hi to a white lady.

That would be as pointed out here like asking Jews to just give up their feelings about the Swastika. Again you can invent whatever meaning you want for the swastika but that's the symbol that was up everywhere when the NAZI's gassed their grandma. So it's perfectly reasonable for them to react with hostility without asking questions if someone just carries that crap into their synagogue.

 

[naturalmwa]

This has been a thoroughly enjoyable thread. Thank you all.

 

[strummingram]

For the record I don't equate the Confederate Battle Flag with the Swastika. I just used the example because it is about as offensive of a one I could think of. Sort of like a man wearing a white rob going to a historically black church. You really seem to be downplaying the role of symbols.

I don't "seem to be" downplaying them. I'm irrefutably downplaying them. I'm all for identifying acts of repression and acts of prejudice. But, having a sh*t-fit over a flag is just that. If you want to talk about the actual actions that repressed people, you'll find an ally with me. This peripheral symbol sh*t? No, thanks.

 

[strummingram]

I'm not disagreeing with you...you have no consistent stand with which to disagree. That I'm pointing that out seems to offend you. Grow some thicker skin or unleash that fearful attack.

If you really believe that, then STFU! That was more like an attack. It was actually a direct insult. It's no wonder you're hated and unwanted at your own home board.

 

[strummingram]

But see the importance comes in an underlying insensitivity that we have towards those people of different social groups.

Let me give you an example. . . Back when that judge in Alabama insisted that he had to have a ten commandments statue in his court, did you support his right to put that symbol in his court?

I didn't and I'm a Christian and I was embarrassed at how many Christians who did. The thing is that symbol for a non Christian can be pretty easily interpreted that this place isn't going to give me a fair hearing due to my religion or lack there of. But many Christians just saw it as Christian judge can't put a symbol of his faith up in his court room. To many Christians he was being stifled, but they couldn't see the point of view of the other social group of anyone else who could reasonably view it as something that would mean they would be judged by Christian and not secular standards.

So as to with the Confederate battle flag. It's been turned into a "southern pride" sort of symbol just recently by many people. But they are almost entirely white and they lack the ability to empathize with people who due to the history of that flag might find it pretty upsetting.

The idea that you can turn the symbol into whatever meaning you want just lacks empathy with those who can look at the history of that symbol and find every reasonable meaning to be pretty darn upsetting. For 100 years the confederate battle flag was a symbol of black oppression and BLACKS freaking knew it. Now white people just re-invent it as a southern pride thing and ignore their feelings about it. And it's not like this crap was a long time ago. . . my mom was a teenager when black people where being oppressed in the South. This isn't something where you can say "I've never met anyone in my life who was even alive then" There is plenty of people who where alive when that flag was being flown at a black lynching or being flown to oppose black people going to the same school as white people.

So for you it's southern pride or whatever. . . For someone else it's the flag they flew when they lynched their grandpa because he wanted to drink out of the wrong water fountain or said hi to a white lady.

That would be as pointed out here like asking Jews to just give up their feelings about the Swastika. Again you can invent whatever meaning you want for the swastika but that's the symbol that was up everywhere when the NAZI's gassed their grandma. So it's perfectly reasonable for them to react with hostility without asking questions if someone just carries that crap into their synagogue.

Well, for the record, I don't personally have some "Southern Pride" necessarily. The flag just looks cool to me. Now, I do have a lot of ancestral ties to the flag since my family has genealogical records and stories handed-down. I'm just not a big fan of the idea of "pride." I think pride is somewhat dangerous and I try to avoid it, or at least keep it in a close balance.

I also have complete agreement with the aspect of the empathy that is in play. I also know that it's almost solely a "whites only" image now. That is why I personally don't display it. I feel that empathy and I don't want people to misunderstand my intent or attitudes and need to explain to them why they see a Rebel Flag near me!

But, this thread turned into a sort of chastising of Kiting because of HIS display of the flag. I've interacted with him enough to believe that he is NOT a racially prejudiced person. His attitude toward the flag has been made clear. Flags, in general, don't bother me. But, posters insisting that he is a racist-by-association is bullshit. That's all. And, the assumption that I'm somehow racist (or defending racism) for defending what I perceive as his non-racism is also motivation for my participation here!

 

[LifelongHawk]

Odd. Both Kiting and strumwhatever engaged my posts, then fail to engage the responses despite having time and inclination to engage multiple other posts. Wonder why?

They KNOW in their hearts that at a minimum they enable racism and exacerbate societal ills. They are unwilling to admit that to themselves because their ego for years has clung to what they believe to be their "true motive" coupled with their ingrained rationalizations of their "proud heritage." They are part of the problem, and only when their incapable of honest self-reflection and change generation passes will this particular "part of the problem" disappear.

Well, at least they ain't slaveholders or lynchers or segregationists like their forbears who ingrained their rationalizations, and their "true motives" are indeed a step in the right direction. Good luck gentlemen, I wish you the best.

 

[naturalmwa]

If you really believe that, then STFU! That was more like an attack. It was actually a direct insult. It's no wonder you're hated and unwanted at your own home board.

 

[strummingram]

Odd. Both Kiting and strumwhatever engaged my posts, then fail to engage the responses despite having time and inclination to engage multiple other posts. Wonder why?

Where did I fail to engage?

I would never claim to "know your heart." That's mighty strong for you to claim you know mine. Kiting will probably not have issue with it since he's an atheist.

 

[preshlock]

Well, for the record, I don't personally have some "Southern Pride" necessarily. The flag just looks cool to me.

Looks good as well-

• 

 

[strummingram]

Looks good as well-

• 

Yeah... it really has a vibe. I know the history and I never pinpoint one "feeling" from what I know of it anytime I just see it.

I remember seeing a photo of Brian Jones (Rolling Stones) in a photo shoot wearing an SS uniform and stepping on a doll. The irreverence was kinda cool. I'm fully aware of the suffering, misguided allegiance to a radically prejudiced regime, and the destruction that came from it. But... this SYMBOL doesn't offend me. Seeing it, by itself, doesn't bother me at all. I saw it it on model airplanes I made as a kid (I had a really nice collection of WWII planes I'd made). I saw it in tons of my history books (not school, but ones I owned as a kid). I've seen them in estate sales. I've seen them in films. I'm sort of desensitized to them, maybe. The symbols never bothered me. What the people actually did, is another story. I still don't believe that the symbols "create more of" the ideas, attitudes, or any other facet of their past just because they're visible. You posted this symbol, but I don't feel compelled to hate Jews!

 

[strummingram]

This was in a Stones book I have. I don't believe the Stones are Nazis.


Keith Moon

Jimmy Page

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Odd. Both Kiting and strumwhatever engaged my posts, then fail to engage the responses despite having time and inclination to engage multiple other posts. Wonder why?

They KNOW in their hearts that at a minimum they enable racism and exacerbate societal ills. They are unwilling to admit that to themselves because their ego for years has clung to what they believe to be their "true motive" coupled with their ingrained rationalizations of their "proud heritage." They are part of the problem, and only when their incapable of honest self-reflection and change generation passes will this particular "part of the problem" disappear.

Well, at least they ain't slaveholders or lynchers or segregationists like their forbears who ingrained their rationalizations, and their "true motives" are indeed a step in the right direction. Good luck gentlemen, I wish you the best.

I don't personally think that by displaying the flag one is racist, but I do think they are displaying a lack of empathy for people who where oppressed under those symbols and/or displaying a lack of understanding of history.

So none of them really give me a positive view.

Of course I'm personally someone that thinks we need to remove all confederate war dead from our national cemeteries including Arlington and destroy all confederate memorials.

Why should we honor the sworn enemies of the United States of America?

 

[LifelongHawk]

Where did I fail to engage?

Well, I quoted one of your posts and:

Since you are taking up the mantle of defending the transparent rationalizations of displaying the banner of white supremacy and treason, what say you to these inquiries?

Regardless of what Kiting intends or associates, he KNOWS that the symbol does in fact represent racism to many, most to be fair (when and why did SC begin to fly it again?). Kiting therefore unequivocally knows that it supports and fosters the sentiments of racist Caucasians who see the proud display, and also knows it fosters feelings of resentment and anger of African-Americans (with damn good cause). What in the world do you call intentionally doing an act knowing that it furthers white supremacy and black anger? Um, racism if you are honest. Or if you are unable to reach that conclusion, you cannot escape that it sure as hell enables racism on both sides of the color wheel, hardly a rational source of pride.

Kiting's true nature and heart are of course the gravamen of being a racist, and are entirely unknown to me. But actions speak louder than words. So I don't give a rats ass whether Kiting's heart is racist and what his real motives are or are claimed to be, his actions of the proud display further and exacerbate racism and that makes him part of the problem.

Kiting should take down the damn flag, it is offensive. You should stop giving cover and excuse to true racists who use the banner in the exact same fashion as does Kiting, because that makes you also part of the problem.

I have to go, will check back in a few hours or in the morning to continue if appropriate.

One last inquiry on my way out: Wonder if Dylan terrorist murder boy ever saw Kiting's proud display and took comfort in knowing that his outlook was shared by so many, or saw your particular rationalizations and gave em a big AMEN BROTHER.

Not your problem of course, you weren't at that church and have no obligation to make the world around you a better place by not enabling idiots like him, cause true motives and pride and heritage and difference between symbols and action.

 

[strummingram]

Well, I quoted one of your posts and:



I have to go, will check back in a few hours or in the morning to continue if appropriate.

One last inquiry on my way out: Wonder if Dylan terrorist murder boy ever saw Kiting's proud display and took comfort in knowing that his outlook was shared by so many, or saw your particular rationalizations and gave em a big AMEN BROTHER.

Not your problem of course, you weren't at that church and have no obligation to make the world around you a better place by not enabling idiots like him, cause true motives and pride and heritage and difference between symbols and action.

The nutcase Dylan was a nutcase! Period! What he DID was abhorrent! WHY he did it can be debated until St. Swithens Day. I can account for myself not doing it and trying to dissuade others from feeling compelled to murder innocent people. But, I don't believe that censoring symbols and words is the way I wanna go about it. Nor do I wanna impose guilt on people, who are no threat to anyone else, because they display a symbol someone else finds offensive.

 

[strummingram]

I don't personally think that by displaying the flag one is racist, but I do think they are displaying a lack of empathy for people who where oppressed under those symbols and/or displaying a lack of understanding of history.

So none of them really give me a positive view.

Of course I'm personally someone that thinks we need to remove all confederate war dead from our national cemeteries including Arlington and destroy all confederate memorials.

Why should we honor the sworn enemies of the United States of America?

Why should we honor the USA? Why should we honor any man-made institutions that are responsible for injustices and inequalities and social divisions? Those dead soldiers all died for the same thing- to ensure the wealth of a handful at the expense of the many- like all wars. There's very little nobility in that, to me. Engaging in ANY war is a mistake and a total abandonment of human, and God-given, civility. Your own Savior implores you to seek only peace!

I sort of have a soft spot for the Confederacy because they rebelled. I like the idea of rebellion. I like shaking up the status quo. I hate war, but I like the idea of civil disobedience, or disobedience, in general. I hate what the South fought to maintain, but I find the USA to be just as socially hypocritical and their governmental policies are just as crooked and made to fit the wealthy.

I do agree with your first paragraph, however. There is a lack of empathy. It's not a lack of understanding history, though.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

What is really amazing is how in the space of 50 short years blacks have gone from people who were perceived to be less than human to those who are seemingly accepted very well down here now...maybe that is the real story of the South that needs to be told...not some unimportant preoccupation with a piece of cloth. Crap I can remember when I was a child they had to move off the sidewalk when I passed by with my mama.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I don't personally think that by displaying the flag one is racist...

And that's not even the point....they're arguing they shouldn't even be perceived as racist for displaying a patently racist image. As if we should go up to every jackleg flying that flag and interview them as to their true feelings. The world doesn't work that way...CAN'T work that way.

Here's a tip...if you don't want to be perceived as racist, don't use racist language, don't fly racist symbols, don't associate with racist groups. If you do any or all of those things, don't whine when people think you're a racist.

If the only way you can figure to display your "southern heritage" is to fly a blatantly racist flag, you really need to do some research. The South is about a lot more than four years of rebellion in defense of slavery.

This is not that difficult.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

If you really believe that, then STFU! That was more like an attack. It was actually a direct insult. It's no wonder you're hated and unwanted at your own home board.

LOL...that was just sad. The vitriol that made me abandon OOTB has been squashed by new management...you should know that. And I was long gone when that occurred. So the nastiness that was that board's stock in trade had nothing to do with me, dumbass. The hate that regularly flew over there was equal opportunity and I simply refused to roll over for them. Now that it's not allowed, I drop by there happily on occasion and there's absolutely no problem at all. So...you're a hypocrite and a liar.

You've talked out of both sides of your mouth throughout this thread. You're apparently just too dumb to understand what you're doing despite it being pointed out CLEARLY multiple times. I'm hoping it's willful on your part because the alternative is that you are so self-absorbed as to be completely beyond redemption.

That's what we call a direct insult, FTR. And if I hurt your feelings, feel free to no longer engage me. It is your choice, you know.

 

[strummingram]

LOL...that was just sad. The vitriol that made me abandon OOTB has been squashed by new management...you should know that. And I was long gone when that occurred. So the nastiness that was that board's stock in trade had nothing to do with me, dumbass. The hate that regularly flew over there was equal opportunity and I simply refused to roll over for them. Now that it's not allowed, I drop by there happily on occasion and there's absolutely no problem at all. So...you're a hypocrite and a liar.

You've talked out of both sides of your mouth throughout this thread. You're apparently just too dumb to understand what you're doing despite it being pointed out CLEARLY multiple times. I'm hoping it's willful on your part because the alternative is that you are so self-absorbed as to be completely beyond redemption.

That's what we call a direct insult, FTR. And if I hurt your feelings, feel free to no longer engage me. It is your choice, you know.

Yeah, that's it... YOU refused to "roll over for them." I'd tell myself that, too. You did the right thing by "abandoning" it.

Being called hypocrite and liar- from you- feels like victory.

 

[LifelongHawk]

The nutcase Dylan was a nutcase! Period! What he DID was abhorrent! WHY he did it can be debated until St. Swithens Day. I can account for myself not doing it and trying to dissuade others from feeling compelled to murder innocent people. But, I don't believe that censoring symbols and words is the way I wanna go about it. Nor do I wanna impose guilt on people, who are no threat to anyone else, because they display a symbol someone else finds offensive.

ok, checked back in and SHOCKED to see post you ignored before ignored again.

Who cares if you gave you comfort and support to racists, you didn't pull any triggers. So what if you and brother Kiting's repeated loud proud actions enable racists, "true motives" and "pride and heritage" and "symbols."

Take the flag down. Quit rationalizing. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

 

[strummingram]

ok, checked back in and SHOCKED to see post you ignored before ignored again.

Who cares if you gave you comfort and support to racists, you didn't pull any triggers. So what if you and brother Kiting's repeated loud proud actions enable racists, "true motives" and "pride and heritage" and "symbols."

Take the flag down. Quit rationalizing. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

WTF are you talking about?

I "enabled" racists? Are you serious with that crap? Comfort and support to racists? Could you falsely project a little more? Some lunatic loses his sh*t and kills people and you wanna blame a flag. Then you wanna blame me for "enabling" them. Can you find some more places to misplace the blame? Can you drag global warming into it somehow? Too much humidity made him fall off the sane wagon?

And, is that first sentence supposed to be English? "ok, checked back in and SHOCKED to see post you ignored before ignored again"

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Yeah, that's it... YOU refused to "roll over for them." I'd tell myself that, too. You did the right thing by "abandoning" it.

Being called hypocrite and liar- from you- feels like victory.

Given your definition of a "win", that's hardly surprising. As for OOTB, I was never banned nor even told by any mod that I was out of line. That wasn't true for others. Your narrative - again, not surprisingly - is simply false.

 

[strummingram]

Given your definition of a "win", that's hardly surprising. As for OOTB, I was never banned nor even told by any mod that I was out of line. That wasn't true for others. Your narrative - again, not surprisingly - is simply false.

I never said you were "banned." I said it's no wonder you're hated and unwanted at your home board. You present yourself as a pretentious, smug jerk just like you do here. I never said banned. I never even implied banned. You decided to use the word banned. I guess that plays to your sensitivities more. I dunno. You're making it up, that's for sure.

Where was I "talking out of both sides of my mouth?"

 

[tarheelbybirth]

It exhibits a human weakness that I am so glad I'm impervious to.

Speaking of coming off like a "smug jerk"...exhibit number one. You have been invited to ignore me yet here you still are. Impervious? Once again, you protest FAR too much.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth?

As THBB pointed out; if you use something that many people associate a certain attitude with, then be prepared to explain yourself or be misunderstood.

I appreciate the shout-out. Now, how about engaging your brain and trying to comprehend what has been said REPEATEDLY throughout this thread. It's the whining about being "misunderstood" that I've been talking about the WHOLE TIME. That flag is a symbol of rebellious states defending slavery. It's only other true meaning is being resurrected from the grave to protest the civil rights movement post-WWII. Those are basic facts. That YOU or anyone else want to call it something else doesn't change those most basic facts. That YOU don't like that is completely immaterial.

You have repeatedly railed against those who judge based on that symbol, whining that people should be judged by their actions. Choosing to fly that flag IS an action and only a complete idiot would argue otherwise - not that this has stopped you. So if Kiting - or ANYONE else - takes offense at being thought a racist for their action...too f'n bad. Suck it up and quit crying like little girls. It is FACTUALLY a symbol of racism and dressing it up doesn't change that. You want a symbol of southern heritage...here you go:

That went on for a lot more than four years and is as much or more a symbol of "southern heritage" as that flag. Feel free to call it something else...maybe a "pinata party".,,,and invest it with whatever warped meaning you can dream up. Then fly that image from your front porch and whine when people assume you're a racist asshole. Your stupidity on this topic appears to be boundless...and that's not me feigning superiority.

 

[strummingram]

It exhibits a human weakness that I am so glad I'm impervious to.

Speaking of coming off like a "smug jerk"...exhibit number one. You have been invited to ignore me yet here you still are. Impervious? Once again, you protest FAR too much.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth?

As THBB pointed out; if you use something that many people associate a certain attitude with, then be prepared to explain yourself or be misunderstood.

I appreciate the shout-out. Now, how about engaging your brain and trying to comprehend what has been said REPEATEDLY throughout this thread. It's the whining about being "misunderstood" that I've been talking about the WHOLE TIME. That flag is a symbol of rebellious states defending slavery. It's only other true meaning is being resurrected from the grave to protest the civil rights movement post-WWII. Those are basic facts. That YOU or anyone else want to call it something else doesn't change those most basic facts. That YOU don't like that is completely immaterial.

You have repeatedly railed against those who judge based on that symbol, whining that people should be judged by their actions. Choosing to fly that flag IS an action and only a complete idiot would argue otherwise - not that this has stopped you. So if Kiting - or ANYONE else - takes offense at being thought a racist for their action...too f'n bad. Suck it up and quit crying like little girls. It is FACTUALLY a symbol of racism and dressing it up doesn't change that. You want a symbol of southern heritage...here you go:

That went on for a lot more than four years and is as much or more a symbol of "southern heritage" as that flag. Feel free to call it something else...maybe a "pinata party".,,,and invest it with whatever warped meaning you can dream up. Then fly that image from your front porch and whine when people assume you're a racist asshole. Your stupidity on this topic appears to be boundless...and that's not me feigning superiority.

I said several times (or alluded) that, basically, because it's controversial, then it will be complicated,a nd require explanation, for those who display it. That doesn't mean I can't help them explain themselves, and not call them racist for displaying it. Especially in the case of someone who I know is not racially prejudiced.

If that lynching is your first instinctive image that reflects southern heritage, then you really need to change your handle. That image is lacking a Confederate Battle Flag, so is the image a depiction of racial terror? If that flag isn't present, then it must be in question, right?

Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party

SSOC

If people like Kiting can display it, and NOT be racially prejudiced, then it could help redefine the flag. It's been used in other positive contexts as shown above and I wasn't really trying. It will only mean one thing to you. I'm sure the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist TV show as well. I'm surprised you're not ashamed of Tar Heel. I'm ashamed you use the term in your name.

 

[strummingram]

. Choosing to fly that flag IS an action and only a complete idiot would argue otherwise - not that this has stopped you.

Bullsh*t. Idiot, coming from you, has a totally different meaning. It's a compliment. Flying a flag is not a racist activity. If the person flying it is racist, then that person is a racist. But, still, the flag is harmless. It's amazing how fearful you are of symbols and pieces of cloth. The lynching is something to be upset by... very upset, in fact. I didn't see a flag there! I'm shocked you chose to use that image since it lacks the common denominator for all racial prejudice- a flag.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I'm surprised you're not ashamed of Tar Heel. I'm ashamed you use the term in your name.

I'm surprised you can feel shame...it wouldn't have occurred to me given your history in this and other threads. As for the term itself, there's no reason to feel shame in it...that you would think so, however, isn't surprising.

As for those who protest about being judged for their actions, I've found that those who claim to NOT be prejudiced are often those who have a racist core. To quote my father's father, "I'm not prejudiced. There's some blacks as good as whites and some whites as bad as blacks." Now he said that and truly believed it showed that he wasn't prejudiced. I suspect the same is true for those who choose to fly that flag claiming it represents something other than what it is.

Finally, as for the image, who the hell suggested it had ANYTHING to do with the flag? I said that it's as much an image of southern heritage as the flag. Are you denying it? Trust me, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you did. The fact that you question it as terrorism absent the flag is your first step, I guess, in sanitizing that history as well.

 

[strummingram]

The book Grandfather Tales of North Carolina History (1901) states that:

During the late unhappy war between the States it [North Carolina] was sometimes called the "Tar-heel State," because tar was made in the State, and because in battle the soldiers of North Carolina stuck to their bloody work as if they had tar on their heels, and when General Lee said, "God bless the Tar-heel boys," they took the name. (p. 6)

A letter found in 1991 (dating from 1864 in the North Carolina "Tar Heel Collection") by North Carolina State Archivist David Olson supports the theory that Lee might have stated something similar to this. A Colonel Joseph Engelhard, describing the Battle of Ream's Station in Virginia, wrote: "It was a 'Tar Heel' fight, and ... we got Gen'l Lee to thanking God, which you know means something brilliant."


Rethink your name... Tar Heel has controversial connotations. You don't want to be mistaken for a racist.

 

[strummingram]

I'm surprised you can feel shame...it wouldn't have occurred to me given your history in this and other threads. As for the term itself, there's no reason to feel shame in it...that you would think so, however, isn't surprising.

As for those who protest about being judged for their actions, I've found that those who claim to NOT be prejudiced are often those who have a racist core. To quote my father's father, "I'm not prejudiced. There's some blacks as good as whites and some whites as bad as blacks." Now he said that and truly believed it showed that he wasn't prejudiced. I suspect the same is true for those who choose to fly that flag claiming it represents something other than what it is.

Finally, as for the image, who the hell suggested it had ANYTHING to do with the flag? I said that it's as much an image of southern heritage as the flag. Are you denying it? Trust me, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you did. The fact that you question it as terrorism absent the flag is your first step, I guess, in sanitizing that history as well.

I'm not sanitizing or revising anything. I simply don't find racism in a piece of cloth. I don't find Liberty, or Freedom in an American Flag either. So, that might shock you, too. Flags are pieces of cloth that people use for different things. You're the kind of dipshit that would insist the Dukes Of Hazzard be removed from TV because it incites racial prejudice. You're that f*ckign stupid. And, if you're not for removing the show, then you're capable of understanding that the flag doesn't always represent racial prejudice.


Whatever it is "you've found" is really of no interest to me.

 

[strummingram]

Finally, as for the image, who the hell suggested it had ANYTHING to do with the flag? I said that it's as much an image of southern heritage as the flag. Are you denying it? Trust me, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you did. The fact that you question it as terrorism absent the flag is your first step, I guess, in sanitizing that history as well.

Um, no... I don't see that lynching as "Southern Heritage." I see that as ignorant, prejudiced people doing ignorant, prejudiced sh*t. It's not exclusive to any location on any map. Ignorance and prejudice are found north, south, east and west. If you want to make it "Southern" then that's your choice. You're only a Tar Heel by birth. You must enjoy denigrating where you come from if you want to make that activity exclusive to the South.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Bullsh*t. Idiot, coming from you, has a totally different meaning. It's a compliment. Flying a flag is not a racist activity. If the person flying it is racist, then that person is a racist. But, still, the flag is harmless. It's amazing how fearful you are of symbols and pieces of cloth. The lynching is something to be upset by... very upset, in fact. I didn't see a flag there! I'm shocked you chose to use that image since it lacks the common denominator for all racial prejudice- a flag.

So choosing to fly that flag isn't an action? Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure it is. So, yes, you are a complete idiot...because, you dumbass, I didn't say flying it was a racist activity. YOU quoted me, dumbass. go back and read what you quoted. I have said, repeatedly and ad nauseum, that those who choose to fly the flag are going to be judged as racists...period. YOU have agreed...then you turn right around and try to minimize it. I'm going to try this one more time, dumbass...pay attention.

If you don't want to be thought a racist:

1. Don't engage in racist speech.

2. Don't associate with racist groups.

3. Don't adorn yourself with racist symbols.

If you choose to engage in any of those activities, don't f'n whine when you're judged as being a racist. The vast majority of people who drive by your house and see that flag flying from your porch - and let's see if this sinks in - are NOT going to stop by to see if you actually ARE a racist asshole. Believe it or not, they don't give a damn what you think it represents. And people on an anonymous message board know little more about you than people driving by your house.

So fly your flag - I fully support your right to do so. And feel free to protest that it doesn't make you a racist. Might even be true. And my grandfather might not have been prejudiced. He said he wasn't.