How far beyond has Iowa fallen?

[AndEEss]

Talent eval is not the issue here duder.

Cael rarely misses because his coaching/training system works extremely well. Tom lacks consistency because his coaching/training system doesn't work as well as Cael's.

This is easily shown in examples such as Ayala beats Davis in the dual and Davis wins Big Tens or Rathjen beats Kasak in the dual and Kasak outplaces him at Big Tens or Woods owned Bartlett in the past and now Bartlett seems to have surpassed him or Kemmerer went from beating Starocci to getting surpassed by him or why the same happened with Eierman and Lee, etc., etc., etc.

I don't understand why it's so hard for so many on this board to see this or admit this or whatever, but it's staring us in the face with this common theme repeated and recycled again and again and again.

¿Por que no los dos? Why pick one or the other.

And, it's a self-licking icecream cone. The system develops the current wrestlers, which builds a positive track record. Kids see the post season results that Penn State has, which results in better recruits. Having the pick of the litter in recruiting results in more, better kids that better fit the Penn State system. So the level just keeps on getting higher and higher, resulting in recruiting classes like you see with the 2024 and 2025 classes. Used to be that way for Iowa, too.

Iowa and Penn State have very different approaches, which is a surprise to absolutely no one. Maybe the "Iowa style" of wrestling will come back into vogue, but I doubt it. I'll pick an example of one glaring difference between the two programs: far ankle defense. There are a couple of guys on Iowa who do it, but the only one in recent memory who did it very well was Eierman, who spent four years at Mizzou before transferring. Meanwhile, Penn State has a half dozen current starters who will regularly convert an opponent's shot into their own offense.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Talent eval is not the issue here duder.

Cael rarely misses because his coaching/training system works extremely well. Tom lacks consistency because his coaching/training system doesn't work as well as Cael's.

This is easily shown in examples such as Ayala beats Davis in the dual and Davis wins Big Tens or Rathjen beats Kasak in the dual and Kasak outplaces him at Big Tens or Woods owned Bartlett in the past and now Bartlett seems to have surpassed him or Kemmerer went from beating Starocci to getting surpassed by him or why the same happened with Eierman and Lee, etc., etc., etc.

I don't understand why it's so hard for so many on this board to see this or admit this or whatever, but it's staring us in the face with this common theme repeated and recycled again and again and again.

I'm a novice fan IMO and don't know what I see like many here including you but I do see that. I assume the PSU guy will improve and win the next time. Because of all the examples you have shown.

 

[Libertylover]

I'm a novice fan IMO and don't know what I see like many here including you but I do see that. I assume the PSU guy will improve and win the next time. Because of all the examples you have shown.

The only way to prove it’s coaching, not talent is to switch lineups and see what the results are. The one time I give them credit it coming up with the RBY wrestling with arm behind his back, and even then they were working with a superior talented athlete. Same with having Star stall more then use his superior speed and athleticism to get a last minute take down at end of match. Again this works when you’re working with the superior athlete with just as good skills. The time Eirman lost to Lee at nationals was his poor decision to go for something big when he shouldn’t have. He had that go for broke style for years before Iowa, and it usually worked well, so they are not going to try to reinvent the wheel for him his last 2 years.

 

[wahlberg]

I am the last guy on here to be lecturing about how Cael is a better talent developer. I pound that drum all the time because it's true. That is the biggest issue by far.

What I'm was that Cael's ability to spot and target guys who have high ceilings is under talked about. He's not just chasing rankings.

I don't think TNT will ever be as good at developing talent as Cael, but I do think they can improve on the talent evaluation side.

Fair. I shouldn’t have aimed it at you.

 

[Muscles1989]

Well, they hired the top assistant from the team they could never beat to start. The equivalent here would be Iowa hiring Cunningham.

Cunningham isn’t going anywhere according to his dad that I talked to a few weeks ago. Gets plenty of calls regularly but enjoys it out there too much, can’t blame him.

 

[Muscles1989]

I wasn’t and don’t have any sons to be recruited, but do colleges go out and be seen at top tournaments around the country? Kids are becoming hammers younger and younger. I just don’t get the impression the Iowa staff recruits guys hard, more of a “you all should come to us we are Iowa” mentality.

 

[bourbon n blues]

The only way to prove it’s coaching, not talent is to switch lineups and see what the results are. The one time I give them credit it coming up with the RBY wrestling with arm behind his back, and even then they were working with a superior talented athlete. Same with having Star stall more then use his superior speed and athleticism to get a last minute take down at end of match. Again this works when you’re working with the superior athlete with just as good skills. The time Eirman lost to Lee at nationals was his poor decision to go for something big when he shouldn’t have. He had that go for broke style for years before Iowa, and it usually worked well, so they are not going to try to reinvent the wheel for him his last 2 years.

Part of coaching is talent evaluation and recruiting the talent. It's all part of the same game. I talked to Beau Bartlett's dad on the break on Saturday he believes PSU is on top of everything and said they are a very self motivated program. Some of Nagao's family mentioned he was surprised at PSU's approach at first. At Minnesota they often hung out together and did a lot of stuff together.

At PSU they were all doing what they needed to do outside the practice time. It's going to take a certain mind set and self motivated person to succeed at PSU. However you will have a lot of examples of how to go forward. This doesn't mean they don't practice but there is freedom in your training to some degree.

 

[Grip220]

Least number of Iowa fans I’ve ever seen at a B1G tourney. It was really noticeable. Unfortunately way too many Penn State supporters making lots of noise…I understand why the Hawks were hated (and still are based on the cheers when they do poorly). Hopefully we can get back to earning the hate, but in the meantime it sure would be nice to see the Nittany Lions hated a bit more.

It was in Maryland of all places

 

[bourbon n blues]

In the case of Beau Bartlett , he beat Jordan Conaway of PSU in a freestyle match while Beau was in high school. He immediately congratulated Beau and then Cael and two other coaches did also. Beau and his dad were impressed how they talked to Beau and how nice they were and the PSU staff said they were interested in Beau.

His dad was thinking Ivy League yet for his son because of academics, he mentioned where they lived in Arizona that the schools weren't as good as in the NE so he was hoping for a school like Harvard or Cornell. there was more to how he ended up at PSU, but Cael and his connections were a huge part.

Bartlett would've stayed even if he barely saw the mat. Cael introduced him and his father to three very successful PSU grads that went on to things like med school, high end jobs, and top grad schools and his recommendation helped this kids. He said Sanderson showed him some of the guys in his contact list and it was implied he'd have no problem recommending a hard worker to those fellows.

There's nothing there that's a rule violation , just that PSU goes out of their way to help their wrestlers post grad. Think you might get that teaching/coaching job at that high school with a Sanderson recommendation?

 

[bourbon n blues]

It was in Maryland of all places

Yep, 3.5 hours from my house, 20 miles from my sister. Free rooms, she lives in Alexandria Va. and only $50 for a two day all day pass. My seats were behind Nagao's family, two rows behind Messenbrink's and Bartlett's families.

If it's at Nebraska, I'm flying, renting a hotel room, eating out every meal etc. My $500 weekend becomes $2500 or more. Next year we'll probably go to nationals in Philadelphia. My cousin and I will drive an hour each way from the Lehigh valley.

 

[MAGAman]

Better $$.

We have more money than anyone other than maybe PSU. I know its been repeated they have way more $. Love to see data. Not doubting it but wouod like to see proof. Seems like that’s the most used. Biggest excuse that gets thrown on these boards as we don’t have the money, Penn State does. The fact that Iowa had donors participating years and years ahead of when Penn State was even on the radar shocks me that they have so much more.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

We have more money than anyone other than maybe PSU. I know its been repeated they have way more $. Love to see data. Not doubting it but wouod like to see proof. Seems like that’s the most used. Biggest excuse that gets thrown on these boards as we don’t have the money, Penn State does. The fact that Iowa had donors participating years and years ahead of when Penn State was even on the radar shocks me that they have so much more.

The data is public. Here you go:

Nittany Lion Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

Hawkeye Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

 

[HawkCharlotte]

Talent eval is not the issue here duder.

Cael rarely misses because his coaching/training system works extremely well. Tom lacks consistency because his coaching/training system doesn't work as well as Cael's.

This is easily shown in examples such as Ayala beats Davis in the dual and Davis wins Big Tens or Rathjen beats Kasak in the dual and Kasak outplaces him at Big Tens or Woods owned Bartlett in the past and now Bartlett seems to have surpassed him or Kemmerer went from beating Starocci to getting surpassed by him or why the same happened with Eierman and Lee, etc., etc., etc.

I don't understand why it's so hard for so many on this board to see this or admit this or whatever, but it's staring us in the face with this common theme repeated and recycled again and again and again.

One aspect is this:

Cael's demeanor and approach has a much broader appeal and thus he can be competitive with more recruits.

TnT's demeanor and approach has a much LESS appeal and thus Iowa attracts less recruits.

It's a numbers game and TnT are losing it ... badly

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

The data is public. Here you go:

Nittany Lion Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

Hawkeye Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

@MAGAman

From 2011 - 2022, NLWC had $22M in revenue and HWC had $10M in revenue.

Notably, NLWC had nearly $6M in revenue in just 2014 alone.

 

[Aardvark86]

the answer to the thread title may well be 'farther than this weekend's results might suggest." the prodigal appears to have returned.

 

[HawkCharlotte]

@MAGAman

From 2011 - 2022, NLWC had $22M in revenue and HWC had $10M in revenue.

Notably, NLWC had nearly $6M in revenue in just 2014 alone.

So, is the implication that unless Iowa can double it's $$, PSU will win until the Lord returns?

 

[Muscles1989]

One aspect is this:

Cael's demeanor and approach has a much broader appeal and thus he can be competitive with more recruits.

TnT's demeanor and approach has a much LESS appeal and thus Iowa attracts less recruits.

It's a numbers game and TnT are losing it ... badly

Bingo! I think wrestlers today are looking for more than someone to scream at them for a few hours a day. Mentor, avenue opener, kinda deal. I think psu is giving wrestlers and families everything and then some.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

So, is the implication that unless Iowa can double it's $$, PSU will win until the Lord returns?

Well, we've been told by PSU fans for years that money is irrelevant. And NIL has only been around for a couple of years. Purportedly prior to then, PSU guys were all wrestling on a 1/4 scholarship and had rich uncles. So money won't even help.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Well, we've been told by PSU fans for years that money is irrelevant. And NIL has only been around for a couple of years. Purportedly prior to then, PSU guys were all wrestling on a 1/4 scholarship and had rich uncles. So money won't even help.

Money is very important, however how well are you spending it?

 

[Muscles1989]

Well, we've been told by PSU fans for years that money is irrelevant. And NIL has only been around for a couple of years. Purportedly prior to then, PSU guys were all wrestling on a 1/4 scholarship and had rich uncles. So money won't even help.

Where is everyone else’s rich uncles, dammit why are we not recruiting based solely on this metric alone.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Money is very important, however how well are you spending it?

Oh now it's important? That's not what PSU fans had been saying for years.

 

[raslen007]

OK let's see how many boos Penn State gets at Nationals compared to Iowa.

Thanks for playing.

But your program wanted that monikar. It was kind of cultured and even worn as a badge, so wear it stop crying. Poll the wrestling world who were the shoving unsportsmanlike attitude and IA would win hands down. And that isn't a bad thing in this combat sport but for Pete's sake stop whining about it.

 

[goethe14]

Maybe my understanding of physics is out of whack, but if both guys weigh 165 pounds, which one is "bigger

 

[raslen007]

you're point seems to be to make up stuff that won't ever happen (like cael deciding to stop winning because it's bad for the sport) and then add a smily face or witty gif

the bama comparison is not 100% the same because of how different college football is than college wreslting

but the point remains...there was a team that dominated a college sport for over a decade on and off the field that was eventually caught and surpassed by a conference rival becuase they didn't just throw in the towel and decide that shouldn't be the expectation

WBB: Tennessee < UConn < South Carolina.

 

[Gobblin]

$$$ aint the issue no more. We have more and more to offer.

Tom has to actually recruit better. Both in identification and in the effort. While some people here act like its somehow a slight against Carl - he actually recruits. When he identifies a recruit he wants, he goes after them, puts in the work. And Tom has been unwilling to do that. I know he's gone after guys in the portal hard, and that's a start - but he has to do it with all the top ten recruits.

The Knox situation is a great example. He WANTED to hear from Tom and Terry.

“We”

Holy shit. 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

Iowa guys wrestle with great effort, but it's obvious Iowa doesn't have the talent to compete for titles right now.

The years of being behind PSU has created such a chasm that I don't see how Iowa is going to close the gap anytime soon. I am not sure Iowa can challenge PSU in the next 10 years. The recruiting is so lopsided.

If PSU pulls away, like it seems they're going to for the unforeseeable future, does wrestling become boring with such a lack of parity and competition?

Wrestling becomes boring when our guys wrestle like shit!! Watching Glazier this year has not been boring because he gives it his all each time out. Real, No brakes Drake, and several others have made it boring because of that one TD mentality. This has nothing to do with PSU and has everything to do with us. We need to quit worrying about PSU and worry about what needs to be done to fix our house.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

But your program wanted that monikar. It was kind of cultured and even worn as a badge, so wear it stop crying. Poll the wrestling world who were the shoving unsportsmanlike attitude and IA would win hands down. And that isn't a bad thing in this combat sport but for Pete's sake stop whining about it.

No I will not stop stating the fact that Penn State needs to go away in the best interest of the sport of college wrestling.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Wrestling becomes boring when our guys wrestle like shit!! Watching Glazier this year has not been boring because he gives it his all each time out. Real, No brakes Drake, and several others have made it boring because of that one TD mentality. This has nothing to do with PSU and has everything to do with us. We need to quit worrying about PSU and worry about what needs to be done to fix our house.

Yep, hell the announcers at the tournament made a comment that in case you were wondering Lewan has had 5 OT matches this season. I think he had 3 or four in this tourney. That drives me nuts. I guess not all guys adapt to a style that features offense but I prefer that.

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

And 65 lbr. The only thing worse than Iowa Wrestling is the Iowa fans.

I love being an Iowa fan!!

 

[Fan In Black]

Part of that talent evaluation is how much they still want to learn, i.e. what is their ceiling. Some of the ceiling is body/muscle type. Some of it is between the ears. Some of it is in he heart. I think they score kids this way for max ceiling potential. It's a good system for weeding out the 3 time state champ who has only one trick and wants to keep it that way. Are they willing to learn = brain. Does the kid have have aspirations beyond nationals (olympics) = heart. What type of athlete are they. I imagine a school visit is more like an interview for a job with essay questions. The wrestler has to sell themselves as much as the school has to sell what they can offer. That's how I feel Cael does it. It doesn't take all the guessing away but at least you have a process for evaluation.

You could have told me Gable wrote this and I would have believed you. Sounds exactly like what he would say.

 

[Pennstate1985]

You could have told me Gable wrote this and I would have believed you. Sounds exactly like what he would say.

Maybe Cael is more of a student of Gable than anyone thinks.

 

[PSUNAV]

this is backward. tnt will onky work ith clones and discipls. theyre the ines that need ti go. complete blood transfusuon is the inly way ti go.

If it’s not a stroke you must be drunk! Proof read much?

 

[ILHawksFan]

Looks like there’s been two real names in this thread so far:
Hidlays
Askren

So, is that the theory? Askren will out recruit Sandersons?

They would never get Askren to coach at Iowa. I get the impression he is no longer interested in pursuing a college coaching job at all. I think he enjoys running his academy close to home and he has 3 young kids at home.

What they can and absolutely do need to do though is figure out how to open a door to recruiting some of the AWA kids being trained by Askren.

Don’t know what happened there, but there is zero connection between Iowa and AWA. Schwab it seems has opened up that door. Obviously Mizzu has a pipeline and it appears PSU now has a pipeline (Mesenbrink, Mirasola twins).

A lot of the top guys coming out of his academy are D1 AA ready out of the gate. They have figured something out.

 

[ILHawksFan]

Least number of Iowa fans I’ve ever seen at a B1G tourney. It was really noticeable. Unfortunately way too many Penn State supporters making lots of noise…I understand why the Hawks were hated (and still are based on the cheers when they do poorly). Hopefully we can get back to earning the hate, but in the meantime it sure would be nice to see the Nittany Lions hated a bit more.

Well it was held about 110 miles from State College, PA. Almost in their backyard.

 

[ILHawksFan]

Schwab?? No. What has he done?

Done quite a bit with the limited resources he has compared to the resources available to the Iowa staff.

 

[Hartzie]

Usually with the exact same points too. People have been underwhelmed with M* on staff for a long time. The fact that he was credited with getting the Young Guns kids to Iowa bought him some grace with fans, although it wasn’t deserved IMO. Gobblin says we don’t have the money, but M* is a 3rd assistant making around 130k right now. This seems insane to me.

I

No, it evolved because Iowa was winning.

It is literally dying under Penn State's watch.

its just dying in Iowa.

 

[iaHki]

They would never get Askren to coach at Iowa. I get the impression he is no longer interested in pursuing a college coaching job at all. I think he enjoys running his academy close to home and he has 3 young kids at home.

What they can and absolutely do need to do though is figure out how to open a door to recruiting some of the AWA kids being trained by Askren.

Don’t know what happened there, but there is zero connection between Iowa and AWA. Schwab it seems has opened up that door. Obviously Mizzu has a pipeline and it appears PSU now has a pipeline (Mesenbrink, Mirasola twins).

A lot of the top guys coming out of his academy are D1 AA ready out of the gate. They have figured something out.

So the board is back to Hidlay’s, Metcalf and Schwab?

Not exactly reaching for the stars here.

But, since no one has said any of these, we all agree that these guys wouldn’t improve on Brands?
Smith
Ryan
Dresser
Koll
Bono
Manning
Bormet
Grey

I think the collective here should pass the hat to help hire Cunningham at, say, Penn. if none of those guys above can get over the hump, it’s looking rough.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

I

its just dying in Iowa.

Iowa > your team

 

[Trapper85]

Talent eval is not the issue here duder.

Cael rarely misses because his coaching/training system works extremely well. Tom lacks consistency because his coaching/training system doesn't work as well as Cael's.

This is easily shown in examples such as Ayala beats Davis in the dual and Davis wins Big Tens or Rathjen beats Kasak in the dual and Kasak outplaces him at Big Tens or Woods owned Bartlett in the past and now Bartlett seems to have surpassed him or Kemmerer went from beating Starocci to getting surpassed by him or why the same happened with Eierman and Lee, etc., etc., etc.

I don't understand why it's so hard for so many on this board to see this or admit this or whatever, but it's staring us in the face with this common theme repeated and recycled again and again and again.

I'll continue to fully agree with you that improvements in the coaching/training arena are warranted and would indeed help, but will continue to strongly believe that talent eval, and of course then getting the right guy (marketing and now $$), is THE main place we need to improve. The single biggest difference I see in (most of) Karl's guys is what's between their ears. They are fearless, fluid/instinctual, calm but fast thinking chain wrestlers that can anticipate and think 3 steps ahead, and so on. Too many of our guys 'see' a takedown as a 4-step process, to the elite it's 1 continual process and they are seamlessly thinking about the next move before they finish the last (and aren't fazed or scared if they screw up here and there). I see it even in (many of) their true freshman, like Davis and MM. You can't tell me Karl already trained those things in to them. Conversely, you're not going to convince me Karl could have turned PK into MM or ZG into AB (no offense to our guys, I 'love' them). Even the guys who are less offensive at PSU, like Bartlett IMO and sometimes Haines or CStar, exhibit those traits. Mind wiring can be improved/honed, and Karl is good at that too, but you are not going to substantially alter their hard wiring at this point. Second to this is selecting guys with the body type/athleticism mix that can turn that mind wiring into physical performance ON A MAT - some guys with the 'right' mind wiring will do great in the courtroom or on the battlefield, only a subset will on the wrestling mat. Every single motion on the wrestling mat is controlled by your brain hardware. I'll guarantee if you hook up an EEG cap to a scrambler's brain and a grinder's brain while on the mat, you'll see notable differences in brain activity. Unless they (mostly) have 'it' when they get there, good luck trying to train it in to them unless you start at a very early age. Otherwise, rejoyce at the notion of (mostly) moving guys from a 12 seed to an 8 seed after 4 years. JMO of course, and my apologies for a long one.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

I'll continue to fully agree with you that improvements in the coaching/training arena are warranted and would indeed help, but will continue to strongly believe that talent eval, and of course then getting the right guy (marketing and now $$), is THE main place we need to improve. The single biggest difference I see in (most of) Karl's guys is what's between their ears. They are fearless, fluid/instinctual, calm but fast thinking chain wrestlers that can anticipate and think 3 steps ahead, and so on. Too many of our guys 'see' a takedown as a 4-step process, to the elite it's 1 continual process and they are seamlessly thinking about the next move before they finish the last (and aren't fazed or scared if they screw up here and there). I see it even in (many of) their true freshman, like Davis and MM. You can't tell me Karl already trained those things in to them. Conversely, you're not going to convince me Karl could have turned PK into MM or ZG into AB (no offense to our guys, I 'love' them). Even the guys who are less offensive at PSU, like Bartlett IMO and sometimes Haines or CStar, exhibit those traits. Mind wiring can be improved/honed, and Karl is good at that too, but you are not going to substantially alter their hard wiring at this point. Second to this is selecting guys with the body type/athleticism mix that can turn that mind wiring into physical performance ON A MAT - some guys with the 'right' mind wiring will do great in the courtroom or on the battlefield, only a subset will on the wrestling mat. Every single motion on the wrestling mat is controlled by your brain hardware. I'll guarantee if you hook up an EEG cap to a scrambler's brain and a grinder's brain while on the mat, you'll see notable differences in brain activity. Unless they (mostly) have 'it' when they get there, good luck trying to train it in to them unless you start at a very early age. Otherwise, rejoyce at the notion of (mostly) moving guys from a 12 seed to an 8 seed after 4 years. JMO of course, and my apologies for a long one.

So you're suggesting we lobotomize Penn State's wrestlers?






That can be arranged............