How far beyond has Iowa fallen?

[Pennstate1985]

I'll continue to fully agree with you that improvements in the coaching/training arena are warranted and would indeed help, but will continue to strongly believe that talent eval, and of course then getting the right guy (marketing and now $$), is THE main place we need to improve. The single biggest difference I see in (most of) Karl's guys is what's between their ears. They are fearless, fluid/instinctual, calm but fast thinking chain wrestlers that can anticipate and think 3 steps ahead, and so on. Too many of our guys 'see' a takedown as a 4-step process, to the elite it's 1 continual process and they are seamlessly thinking about the next move before they finish the last (and aren't fazed or scared if they screw up here and there). I see it even in (many of) their true freshman, like Davis and MM. You can't tell me Karl already trained those things in to them. Conversely, you're not going to convince me Karl could have turned PK into MM or ZG into AB (no offense to our guys, I 'love' them). Even the guys who are less offensive at PSU, like Bartlett IMO and sometimes Haines or CStar, exhibit those traits. Mind wiring can be improved/honed, and Karl is good at that too, but you are not going to substantially alter their hard wiring at this point. Second to this is selecting guys with the body type/athleticism mix that can turn that mind wiring into physical performance ON A MAT - some guys with the 'right' mind wiring will do great in the courtroom or on the battlefield, only a subset will on the wrestling mat. Every single motion on the wrestling mat is controlled by your brain hardware. I'll guarantee if you hook up an EEG cap to a scrambler's brain and a grinder's brain while on the mat, you'll see notable differences in brain activity. Unless they (mostly) have 'it' when they get there, good luck trying to train it in to them unless you start at a very early age. Otherwise, rejoyce at the notion of (mostly) moving guys from a 12 seed to an 8 seed after 4 years. JMO of course, and my apologies for a long one.

A really nice post. My wife and I own a business where we are hiring people on a regular basis. We have a standard set of skills/traits that we evaluate, and I can say without fail that every time we have reached below our standards because we needed to fill a slot, it has backfired on us. Without fail. The hire not only doesn't last and therefore doesn't fill the void, but destabilizes our business worse than if we had no one at all. And it cost us time and money on the mistake, and the failure was on me in not keeping to the standard.

It's extremely important to be disciplined and thoughtful when selecting your wrestlers because if you pick the wrong guy(s), you're using your limited resources (money and time) on guys who you shouldn't have brought into the room in the first place. It becomes a negative addition to the team. Sometimes it's better to bring in no one and focus on what good you have.

 

[Trapper85]

So you're suggesting we lobotomize Penn State's wrestlers?






That can be arranged............

Won't work, they already tried that on Karl, he was 3 steps ahead and had an AI chip installed before they did it.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

It's extremely important to be disciplined and thoughtful when selecting your wrestlers because if you pick the wrong guy(s), you're using your limited resources (money and time) on guys who you shouldn't have brought into the room in the first place. It becomes a negative addition to the team. Sometimes it's better to bring in no one and focus on what good you have.

Transfer portal made missing on guys much less or an issue. Holes can be filled with high AAs.

 

[doubleboots]

We have more money than anyone other than maybe PSU. I know its been repeated they have way more $. Love to see data. Not doubting it but wouod like to see proof. Seems like that’s the most used. Biggest excuse that gets thrown on these boards as we don’t have the money, Penn State does. The fact that Iowa had donors participating years and years ahead of when Penn State was even on the radar shocks me that they have so much more.

according to @bnicolls

 

[Pennstate1985]

Transfer portal made missing on guys much less or an issue. Holes can be filled with high AAs.

My opinion is that the transfer portal is full of fool's gold. Sure you can sometimes get a solid AA for a year or two but they are probably not going to buy into the program nearly as much as an 18 year old would and you lose some continuity. Sometimes they don't pan out at all for whatever reason. You build a strong program through the recruitment process is my belief.

 

[bourbon n blues]

My opinion is that the transfer portal is full of fool's gold. Sure you can sometimes get a solid AA for a year or two but they are probably not going to buy into the program nearly as much as an 18 year old would and you lose some continuity. Sometimes they don't pan out at all for whatever reason. You build a strong program through the recruitment process is my belief.

Yep, home cooking and slow cooking is the best. The portal can fill in holes but that's about it.

 

[sabula]

Done quite a bit with the limited resources he has compared to the resources available to the Iowa staff.

Quite a bit?? What?

 

[pawrestler4life]

Being from PA, would love to see one or both Hidlays on staff. Another guy that would be nice, though I’m not sure what he’s currently doing, is Nino Bonnaccorsi. Offensive minded bigger guy with different style than most have on our team. Obviously Nolf would be ideal but I see that as less likely than most. In regards to Tom n Terry needing replaced, I highly disagree. What the majority see is outside the room and in competition. They don’t see all the finer details and personal side of things that these two provide. The other side of wrestling. Their demeanors on the mat may be outlandish, but there’s more to the big picture than that. Ultimately however, the biggest difference right now as mentioned is recruiting. Landing a Bassett or Jax Forrest can flip that similar to getting Spencer Lee. Bunch a few guys together like that and it turns things around quick. Hoping for landing a few of those guys soon and as always, go hawks

 

[12tdsaw]

at least 4 pst wrestlers are transfers

My opinion is that the transfer portal is full of fool's gold. Sure you can sometimes get a solid AA for a year or two but they are probably not going to buy into the program nearly as much as an 18 year old would and you lose some continuity. Sometimes they don't pan out at all for whatever reason. You build a strong program through the recruitment process is my belief.

 

[bbwretler]

Man, this shit is tiring. I exhausted myself years ago about Tom and his wrestling is life or death mentality. The Pennsylvania boys and the bull bailed Tom out and that’s not going to happen again. Iowa gets an A on defense and a F on offense. Middle of the road and looking at fighting for 3rd or 4th in B1G if things don’t change. I’m sure Iowa’s opponents love game planning for an Iowa wrestler with no FOOTWORK and very little deeking or level changes. No ability to attack from distance, no creativity and can’t scramble for shit. They just plod forward like robots and try to get setups on hand fighting and collar ties. Everything about Iowa wrestling under Tom is archaic from the mentality to technique.

View embedded media

Ben, Cody or Casey and Iowa would be headed in the right direction.

Exactly! Perfect description of our wrestling. When we do take a shot we can’t finish. Time after time opponents score on our take down attempts.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Well , it did seem they cherry picked Nagao, Truax, and Messenbrink. But what he said is somewhat true, Aaron supposedly found it a pretty different place to wrestle than Minnesota. At Minnesota. They would all kind of hang out together, while at Penn State are often doing a bunch of different things.

It’s not like they don’t train hard at Penn State, but guys are often doing more individualized stuff than fairly busy outside of the wrestling room. He’s adapted to it but it’s a little bit more self motivating than rah rah rah kind of stuff.

 

[kegan]

Man, this shit is tiring. I exhausted myself years ago about Tom and his wrestling is life or death mentality. The Pennsylvania boys and the bull bailed Tom out and that’s not going to happen again. Iowa gets an A on defense and a F on offense. Middle of the road and looking at fighting for 3rd or 4th in B1G if things don’t change. I’m sure Iowa’s opponents love game planning for an Iowa wrestler with no FOOTWORK and very little deeking or level changes. No ability to attack from distance, no creativity and can’t scramble for shit. They just plod forward like robots and try to get setups on hand fighting and collar ties. Everything about Iowa wrestling under Tom is archaic from the mentality to technique.

View embedded media

Ben, Cody or Casey and Iowa would be headed in the right direction.

Great post (I would throw Doug in there as well for consideration)

Man, this shit is tiring. I exhausted myself years ago about Tom and his wrestling is life or death mentality. The Pennsylvania boys and the bull bailed Tom out and that’s not going to happen again. Iowa gets an A on defense and a F on offense. Middle of the road and looking at fighting for 3rd or 4th in B1G if things don’t change. I’m sure Iowa’s opponents love game planning for an Iowa wrestler with no FOOTWORK and very little deeking or level changes. No ability to attack from distance, no creativity and can’t scramble for shit. They just plod forward like robots and try to get setups on hand fighting and collar ties. Everything about Iowa wrestling under Tom is archaic from the mentality to technique.

View embedded media

Ben, Cody or Casey and Iowa would be headed in the right direction.

Data doesn’t lie. We are trending more towards Zelensky than gable days. Not that it matters, but I 100% agree with this post and it’s time for new leadership. This Iowa product is boring and predictable.

 

[vhsalum]

Great post (I would throw Doug in there as well for consideration)

Data doesn’t lie. We are trending more towards Zelensky than gable days. Not that it matters, but I 100% agree with this post and it’s time for new leadership. This Iowa product is boring and predictable.

Zelensky. LOL

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Won't work, they already tried that on Karl, he was 3 steps ahead and had an AI chip installed before they did it.

A. That's what EMP weapons are for.

B. "They"....didn't work for me.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

at least 4 pst wrestlers are transfers

Kind of crazy to call the transfer portal fools gold considering the lineups at PSU, Michigan, and Iowa this year. Success in the transfer portal has seemingly become a necessity to be competitive.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Well , it did seem they cherry picked Nagao, Truax, and Messenbrink. But what he said is somewhat true, Aaron supposedly found it a pretty different place to wrestle than Minnesota. At Minnesota. They would all kind of hang out together, while at Penn State are often doing a bunch of different things.

It’s not like they don’t train hard at Penn State, but guys are often doing more individualized stuff than fairly busy outside of the wrestling room. He’s adapted to it but it’s a little bit more self motivating than rah rah rah kind of stuff.

Kerk is also a transfer.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Zelensky. LOL

Iowa hasn't had a champ not named Spencer Lee since 2017. And it's looking like the odds are that Iowa's streak of having an NCAA finalist for over 30 years in a row will come to an end. I have some hope that Ayala or Woods can go on a run and keep it alive, but I'm not counting on it.

Tom and Terry haven't proven to be effective at recruiting or developing national champion caliber wrestlers in the past half decade.

 

[Hawkgma]

Iowa hasn't had a champ not named Spencer Lee since 2017. And it's looking like the odds are that Iowa's streak of having an NCAA finalist for over 30 years in a row will come to an end. I have some hope that Ayala or Woods can go on a run and keep it alive, but I'm not counting on it.

Tom and Terry haven't proven to be effective at recruiting or developing national champion caliber wrestlers in the past half decade.

​

Zalesky, he was laughing at the spelling. Hard to take people serious when they can't get names of coaches right...

 

[vhsalum]

Zalesky, he was laughing at the spelling. Hard to take people serious when they can't get names of coaches right...

It was pretty funny. The auto correct in my cell is Cael to "carl" and it will stay that way.

One name we're all missing is Kem. It's someone Tom would trust, he's in the coaching world and he can scramble.

 

[wahlberg]

I'll continue to fully agree with you that improvements in the coaching/training arena are warranted and would indeed help, but will continue to strongly believe that talent eval, and of course then getting the right guy (marketing and now $$), is THE main place we need to improve. The single biggest difference I see in (most of) Karl's guys is what's between their ears. They are fearless, fluid/instinctual, calm but fast thinking chain wrestlers that can anticipate and think 3 steps ahead, and so on. Too many of our guys 'see' a takedown as a 4-step process, to the elite it's 1 continual process and they are seamlessly thinking about the next move before they finish the last (and aren't fazed or scared if they screw up here and there). I see it even in (many of) their true freshman, like Davis and MM. You can't tell me Karl already trained those things in to them. Conversely, you're not going to convince me Karl could have turned PK into MM or ZG into AB (no offense to our guys, I 'love' them). Even the guys who are less offensive at PSU, like Bartlett IMO and sometimes Haines or CStar, exhibit those traits. Mind wiring can be improved/honed, and Karl is good at that too, but you are not going to substantially alter their hard wiring at this point. Second to this is selecting guys with the body type/athleticism mix that can turn that mind wiring into physical performance ON A MAT - some guys with the 'right' mind wiring will do great in the courtroom or on the battlefield, only a subset will on the wrestling mat. Every single motion on the wrestling mat is controlled by your brain hardware. I'll guarantee if you hook up an EEG cap to a scrambler's brain and a grinder's brain while on the mat, you'll see notable differences in brain activity. Unless they (mostly) have 'it' when they get there, good luck trying to train it in to them unless you start at a very early age. Otherwise, rejoyce at the notion of (mostly) moving guys from a 12 seed to an 8 seed after 4 years. JMO of course, and my apologies for a long one.

Yeah, I still respect your opinion. And I still believe you can develop all those 'between the ears' traits at a rapid rate through coaching/training system, even in college. Fearlessness, instinctive wrestling, being fluid in your movements/transitions, staying calm in the heat of battle, fast-thinking/adaptiveness, and chain wrestling are all highly effected by how coaches structure training (such as by incorporating play wrestling often, among other things) and how they communicate with the team, individual wrestlers, the media, etc. I do believe Cael could have already trained those things into Davis and Mesenbrink, although I would bet Mesenbrink was already training very similarly in Askren's system. But I obviously don't think you need to have come from a system like Askren's in order to have the ability to quickly make vast strides in all the mental-game traits listed above.

I don't think Cael can turn Patrick Kennedy into Mitchell Mesenbrink. But he wouldn't try to. I think what he can (and would) do is maximize a Patrick Kennedy, which might look more similar to a Matt Brown or a Morgan McIntosh or possibly a Vincenzo Joseph. With Glazier, not Aaron Brooks, but maybe something similar to an Anthony Cassar. The point though is that he can maximize their potential because his coaching/training system is optimized to abruptly improve the mental aspects of wrestling that you mentioned. Are you saying Patrick Kennedy will never be capable of exhibiting such traits, no matter the coaching/training system? I disagree with that notion.

I think you absolutely can 'alter the hardwiring' at this point. I think that can also be shown in the fact that Brands' wrestlers more closely approximate the grinding/plodding style the longer they're in Brands' coaching/training system. I don't think he only recruits grinding/plodding wrestlers. I think he recruits many of them, but that he also shapes/builds plenty of them.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Kind of crazy to call the transfer portal fools gold considering the lineups at PSU, Michigan, and Iowa this year. Success in the transfer portal has seemingly become a necessity to be competitive.

You're misunderstanding what was being said. First of all, I separate transfers who transferred to another school either before starting school or after freshman year versus those transferring late in their careers. The reasons are often different between the two groups. The early transfers are more like a life change because a mistake was made in initial selection. In this group would be DT, Metcalf, Kerk, Messenbrick, etc. The group I'm really talking about are the one to two year transfers because they think they will be on a better team or will get a boost themselves. We all remember the ones who "hit" but there are plenty who don't, and even fewer who live up to the fans expectations for them.

For example and not to pick on them specifically, but I remember everyone clamoring over Nagao and Truax and fighting for them last year but there is a decent shot that neither AAs, or if they do, bottom half AA. My point is "at what cost"? Yeah you get 3-10 points more at Nationals at each weight but the guys around their weight that were recruited now have less time with coaches and less actual competition against the upper echelon. How do you get better long term as a young wrestler if you're not competing against the best of other schools or getting the full attention from coaches that starters get. Do you sacrifice or impede the development of a good freshman to get 8 more points at Nationals? What is the answer to that question? Just don't tell me that transfers have no impact in the room for time and money. That's what I meant by fool's gold. Is the cost long term worth the short term fix? Maybe. Maybe not. Transfers aren't always good for a team. That's all I'm saying.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

You're misunderstanding what was being said. First of all, I separate transfers who transferred to another school either before starting school or after freshman year versus those transferring late in their careers. The reasons are often different between the two groups. The early transfers are more like a life change because a mistake was made in initial selection. In this group would be DT, Metcalf, Kerk, Messenbrick, etc. The group I'm really talking about are the one to two year transfers because they think they will be on a better team or will get a boost themselves. We all remember the ones who "hit" but there are plenty who don't, and even fewer who live up to the fans expectations for them.

For example and not to pick on them specifically, but I remember everyone clamoring over Nagao and Truax and fighting for them last year but there is a decent shot that neither AAs, or if they do, bottom half AA. My point is "at what cost"? Yeah you get 3-10 points more at Nationals at each weight but the guys around their weight that were recruited now have less time with coaches and less actual competition against the upper echelon. How do you get better long term as a young wrestler if you're not competing against the best of other schools or getting the full attention from coaches that starters get. Do you sacrifice or impede the development of a good freshman to get 8 more points at Nationals? What is the answer to that question? Just don't tell me that transfers have no impact in the room for time and money. That's what I meant by fool's gold. Is the cost long term worth the short term fix? Maybe. Maybe not. Transfers aren't always good for a team. That's all I'm saying.

You know you're spoiled as a fan (PSU fans) when you're on a rival's message board trying to call 4th and 5th place returning AA transfers fools gold and potentially net bad for your team. Holy cow.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

For example and not to pick on them specifically, but I remember everyone clamoring over Nagao and Truax and fighting for them last year but there is a decent shot that neither AAs, or if they do, bottom half AA.

Truax has gotten 4th 3x. That's top half AA. If he doesn't top half AA this year, PSU has no one to blame but their coaching and development.

 

[MAGAman]

The data is public. Here you go:

Nittany Lion Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

Hawkeye Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

Thank you. Quite a difference. Still both have ample $ to recruit.

 

[pablow]

Well , it did seem they cherry picked Nagao, . . .

It’s not like they don’t train hard at Penn State, but guys are often doing more individualized stuff than fairly busy outside of the wrestling room. He’s adapted to it but it’s a little bit more self motivating than rah rah rah kind of stuff.

I'm having trouble keeping up - what happened to Fun State, dodgeball, and marshmallow roasts?

 

[grapplefann]

The data is public. Here you go:

Nittany Lion Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

Hawkeye Wrestling Club - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

Nice work Vodka!

 

[Pennstate1985]

Thank you. Quite a difference. Still both have ample $ to recruit.

A 6% return on 10.6M can pay for all salary and expenses for 4-6 high quality guys to train there without touching the principal.

 

[goethe14]

Nice work Vodka!

Yes, PSU has a ton of money but just this year there were multiple examples of transfers taking less money from PSU than Iowa offered. It’s not all money. The kids believe they can get much better training at PSU than Iowa and frankly it’s not debatable.

 

[Pennstate1985]

You know you're spoiled as a fan (PSU fans) when you're on a rival's message board trying to call 4th and 5th place returning AA transfers fools gold and potentially net bad for your team. Holy cow.

Sometimes you're as deep thinking as a mud puddle. Quit being a lazy thinker and understand the downside to the transfer portal. EVERYTHING has a downside. I'm trying to explain what I believe the downside to be and all you can do is pass gas. Forums are to share ideas among like-minded people. Try it?

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Sometimes you're as deep thinking as a mud puddle. Quit being a lazy thinker and understand the downside to the transfer portal. EVERYTHING has a downside. I'm trying to explain what I believe the downside to be and all you can do is pass gas. Forums are to share ideas among like-minded people. Try it?

The transfer portal might have downsides. That doesn't change the fact that it's been overwhelmingly net positive for PSU specifically. Your example of Nagao and Truax being potential negatives is absolutely wild. You set yourself up with those comments. Go share your ideas on the PSU board if you're just looking for validation. You insult me and then ask me to agree with you? Using Nagao and Truax to support your premise is "lazy thinking".

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Yes, PSU has a ton of money but just this year there were multiple examples of transfers taking less money from PSU than Iowa offered.

Were there? Post the numbers.

 

[el dub]

Were there? Post the numbers.

Notarized….

 

[Trapper85]

Yeah, I still respect your opinion. And I still believe you can develop all those 'between the ears' traits at a rapid rate through coaching/training system, even in college. Fearlessness, instinctive wrestling, being fluid in your movements/transitions, staying calm in the heat of battle, fast-thinking/adaptiveness, and chain wrestling are all highly effected by how coaches structure training (such as by incorporating play wrestling often, among other things) and how they communicate with the team, individual wrestlers, the media, etc. I do believe Cael could have already trained those things into Davis and Mesenbrink, although I would bet Mesenbrink was already training very similarly in Askren's system. But I obviously don't think you need to have come from a system like Askren's in order to have the ability to quickly make vast strides in all the mental-game traits listed above.

I don't think Cael can turn Patrick Kennedy into Mitchell Mesenbrink. But he wouldn't try to. I think what he can (and would) do is maximize a Patrick Kennedy, which might look more similar to a Matt Brown or a Morgan McIntosh or possibly a Vincenzo Joseph. With Glazier, not Aaron Brooks, but maybe something similar to an Anthony Cassar. The point though is that he can maximize their potential because his coaching/training system is optimized to abruptly improve the mental aspects of wrestling that you mentioned. Are you saying Patrick Kennedy will never be capable of exhibiting such traits, no matter the coaching/training system? I disagree with that notion.

I think you absolutely can 'alter the hardwiring' at this point. I think that can also be shown in the fact that Brands' wrestlers more closely approximate the grinding/plodding style the longer they're in Brands' coaching/training system. I don't think he only recruits grinding/plodding wrestlers. I think he recruits many of them, but that he also shapes/builds plenty of them.

All good points, I suspect we are not as far apart on our thinking as it might seem on the surface. Maybe just a difference on how much we think the hardwiring can be modified by training/coaching. I absolutely think it can be (including PK or anyone), but it takes much more focused individual attention and much more time if the desired initial wiring isn't already there. Coaches have lots of wrestlers to work with and other business to attend to, kids are taking classes and worried about girlfriends/family/'life', and so on. Much better/faster results, albeit easier said than done, to just get better at being able to identify and get guys who already have the right wiring and 'body type'. But a good 'system' that you emphasize will make everyone better faster, even those that may not have the best wiring, so I 100% agree there.

 

[goethe14]

Were there? Post the numbers.

Maybe you should listen to the Flo show when all the transfers were happening and he explained why wrestlers chose PSU over Iowa for less money. Nagao and Truax took less to go to PSU.

 

[Hawkgma]

Maybe you should listen to the Flo show when all the transfers were happening and he explained why wrestlers chose PSU over Iowa for less money. Nagao and Truax took less to go to PSU.

"for less money" GTFO. They got more money than Iowa could even talk about dipshits.

 

[goethe14]

"for less money" GTFO. They got more money than Iowa could even talk about dipshits.

Clutch your pearls all you want. I know to an Iowa fan there has to be some unfair reason a wrestler chose another school besides Iowa. That’s not reality. Iowa is not the standard and hasn’t been the standard for years. Frankly you’re fighting to stay in second place. The Iowa “ style of wrestling” is outdated and not appealing to most high level recruits or transfers. The hypocrisy of a board that during any major tournament will bitch and moan continuously that their team can’t scramble or initiate a varied offensive attack and then say OMG everyone must be paying more since this recruit or transfer chose a school not named Iowa. Occum’s razor. The truth is the majority of wrestlers believe other schools will develop them better. And yes they will take less to go there.

 

[vhsalum]

"for less money" GTFO. They got more money than Iowa could even talk about dipshits.

He's telling the truth. And I've seen the texts. They took less to go to PSU and "win"

 

[bdcolt45er]

You're misunderstanding what was being said. First of all, I separate transfers who transferred to another school either before starting school or after freshman year versus those transferring late in their careers. The reasons are often different between the two groups. The early transfers are more like a life change because a mistake was made in initial selection. In this group would be DT, Metcalf, Kerk, Messenbrick, etc. The group I'm really talking about are the one to two year transfers because they think they will be on a better team or will get a boost themselves. We all remember the ones who "hit" but there are plenty who don't, and even fewer who live up to the fans expectations for them.

For example and not to pick on them specifically, but I remember everyone clamoring over Nagao and Truax and fighting for them last year but there is a decent shot that neither AAs, or if they do, bottom half AA. My point is "at what cost"? Yeah you get 3-10 points more at Nationals at each weight but the guys around their weight that were recruited now have less time with coaches and less actual competition against the upper echelon. How do you get better long term as a young wrestler if you're not competing against the best of other schools or getting the full attention from coaches that starters get. Do you sacrifice or impede the development of a good freshman to get 8 more points at Nationals? What is the answer to that question? Just don't tell me that transfers have no impact in the room for time and money. That's what I meant by fool's gold. Is the cost long term worth the short term fix? Maybe. Maybe not. Transfers aren't always good for a team. That's all I'm saying.

In the case of Penn State I imagine that these these guys that aren't getting a shot because of transfers are likely to lose their spot to a high level recruit. They can just go get a guy that can beat them.

 

[baccafarmer]

What surprises me is the number of wrestlers who did not come to Iowa that say they grew up huge Iowa wrestling fans and always wanted to wrestle at Iowa.... Then the question turns to "Why did the Iowa staff miss on these guys?" I know Penn State is getting all the really top-level guys right now but there are still a lot of other recruits out there that are way up the rankings from what we are getting... It just feels like we should be doing way, way better at recruiting then what we are... Oh, I know we are landing some top-level guys here and there but not with enough consistency and regularity to challenge Penn State.. I know other schools have great programs as well but if they are good enough to recruit over Iowa given our history then something needs to change at the coaching level...

You still hold the “rep”. Get the right guy to lead and your fair share of top talent will flow to IC. TNT are great guys and all, but, you just can’t progress with old school coaching. Todays greatest HS kids want to fly and when the look at Iowa ….. well to be completely frank, . . . they see too much positioning and not enough flying. Get the big checkbook out and hire the guy who can attract today’s most exciting HS wrestlers. The “base” of greatness remains at Iowa. With the right guy Iowa can compete with PSU within 3 years.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

He's telling the truth. And I've seen the texts. They took less to go to PSU and "win"

How much less. How much were they offered at Iowa and how much at PSU? Magnitude matters. Until someone gives numbers, it's meaningless.