Why wouldn't a person who cheated go to church, Don't they deserve forgiveness if they repent?
How often do you attend church?
- Thread starter stevenpatrick
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I was sticking up for you by saying it is ok to NOT go because you are not being fake. You can go if it makes you feel better.
I guess Lute falls into the "Ignore the question" category? Seems like many Christians do this when logic casts doubt on their faith.
I went to church every Sunday until 18. I did it for my Mother who was a devout Catholic. I knew at 14 that all religions are illogical. My mom is no longer a Catholic and shares my views on region. I think it boils down to critical thinking skills, some have it while others wont allow anything to interfere with their path to the afterlife.
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Maybe if you would have told your mom at 14 you both would not have had to go until you were 18 - she might have just been going for you.
I see what you're saying about the faith part of it, but attending church and being part of a church are totally different things. Some people feel better by helping others (physical work, emotional work, cooking meals, whatever it may be). There are certainly social aspects of churches as well, where people with similar values can meet each other and develop deep friendships. Then there are the educational opportunities that come from some churches. My faith is just part of my belonging to our church - we are involved in various groups and many of my best friends are other parents of children that attend the school. Truth be told, I feel better after helping people than I do after a mass and I am sure that's not a big shocker to anybody.
So, you're saying you DIDN'T need church to find morality. That's good. Were family and friends important to you before you went to church? Did you need the church to tell you that your family is important? Church is how you found out that serving others is an upstanding thing to do? I don't disagree with the fact that infidelity is wrong. I strongly believe that family and friends are important and I think serving others is a wonderful thing. BUT, I'm an atheist. Huh, I wonder if those things you mentioned might just have nothing to do with church. If you need the importance of those things pointed out to you on a regular basis, you may have some issues.
i have no 'real faith' but i have no good proof otherwise (or just too lazy to pursue), but i think the good lord (and baby jesus) will let me in the cool kids club when my time here ends. i'm pretty nice, and consider others before myself (except on hrot).
i'm been considering some other faith options that can offer a better version of heaven though.
i have a chip on my shoulder about church. no problem telling people that. is that wrong?
church taught you that? jesus, i'm f'd.....
giving you a hard time - not trying to be a dick. i have friends and family that think like you, and i'm happy to have long (usually fun) debates with them too.
I didn't get saved in a church; that happened in a non-traditional church service as a part of a business meeting. I recommend to people who ask that they find a church that teaches the unadulterated Word of God. There is a lot of error being propagated from a pulpit these days. So I get it when someone seems a little hesitant about church attendance. I've met a good number of people seeking to find--or reaffirm--a relationship with Christ, and find that a roadblock for them is that they had a bad experience in a particular church, or were hurt by someone in a church setting.
I usually go a couple of times a week because of praise/worship, and I can never get enough opportunities to learn about my faith. And regularly communing with the body of believers is a command in the Bible. It won't save you--only faith in Christ can do that--but it can give you opportunities to serve and grow in your faith.
My mom came from a European country that was 90% Cathoilic and she was brainwashed as a child. They take it a step further and think if you're not Catholic you will go to hell.
As she gathered more info, she realized it was a big hoax.
I agree, the message is usually positive and helping people through a church function in rewarding. You cant deny the positive things a church brings to the table.
My 95 year old uncle is or was a devout Christian. He goes to church every Sunday and gives a lot of money to his Catholic church. A few years ago I went to church with him and when it was over I asked what he thought about mass? Out of nowhere, he looked at me and said it all BS. He mentioned the creation theory, the flood, talking snakes and many other illogical parts of the bible. I was shocked and asked him why he attends church and gives them a lot of money? He said it makes him feel good, he likes the message and he hopes his money will go to the less fortunate.
He asked me what I thought and I said the girl two rows in front of us was hot and I had impure thoughts running through my head. My uncle busted out laughing.
This part always cracks me up..
"There is a lot of error being propagated from a pulpit these days."
I find it comical when one Christian tells another Christian that their interpretation of biblical scripture is wrong. When 1000 people read the bible, you will get 1000 different interpretations. You would think God would have made it more clear so everyone is on the same page.
Cruhawk, since Lute ignored or refused to discuss my hypothetical, would you be willing to take a shot at it?
Its a great question or hypothetical to make a Christian think outside their religious box!
Its a great question or hypothetical to make a Christian think outside their religious box!
Brilliant point, a perfect being ought to have inspired a more perfect communication method. Why doesn't anyone find it odd that Jesus was sent here to bring the word, but managed to write nothing himself? Was he lazy or Illiterate?
I am sure only that when this thread ends that the ones who believe still will while the ones that don't still will not and both sides will believe they are right. Life will go on.
Well God willing it will.
Well God willing it will.
Actually, he has made it quite clear, but people have been screwing it up for ~2000 years. One way the enemy (and God has an enemy, lest there be any doubt) hurts the original church's mission is to create confusion & division among people--including Christians. How has he done that? One major way is through different denominations.
You'll have to tell me what the original question was.
BTW, an even better question would be one that gets a non-Christian to think outside their "non-religious" box
(I put that in quotations because true Christianity isn't about religion--it's a relationship. "Religion", for the purposes that most people use the term, has actually been a big part of the problem).
Which denomination are you? Which interpretation of the Bible do you consider to be the truth? Where do you find the true interpretation of the Bible and how do you know that your interpretation is the right one? Just curious. Who is this enemy you speak of and why is God unable to stop it?
You'll have to tell me what the original question was.
BTW, an even better question would be one that gets a non-Christian to think outside their "non-religious" box
(I put that in quotations because true Christianity isn't about religion--it's a relationship. "Religion", for the purposes that most people use the term, has actually been a big part of the problem).
Do you find that a lot of atheists haven't considered or thought about religion? The atheists I know certainly don't fit that mold. You could argue that they have rejected those considerations, but I don't think you can say they are locked into thinking in a "non-religious" box.
My point is that you're all trying and saying you have a relationship, but you all have different views. Hence, the relationship is your imagination.
Not at all. Is my relationship with my wife and kids the same as yours? No. They are as individual and personal as thumbprints; no two are the same. But that doesn't make them any less valid. There are basic non-negotiable tenets that all believers hold to, but each one's personal relationship with Christ is unique.
You'll have to tell me what the original question was.
BTW, an even better question would be one that gets a non-Christian to think outside their "non-religious" box
(I put that in quotations because true Christianity isn't about religion--it's a relationship. "Religion", for the purposes that most people use the term, has actually been a big part of the problem).
You'll have to tell me what the original question was.
BTW, an even better question would be one that gets a non-Christian to think outside their "non-religious" box
(I put that in quotations because true Christianity isn't about religion--it's a relationship. "Religion", for the purposes that most people use the term, has actually been a big part of the problem).
What if you were taken to a Muslim country shortly after birth and grew up with Islam? Would you be a Muslim, think you have the correct religion and think Christianity was the false religion?
Per this example, would you be sentenced to hell by the"loving" Christian God because your were not raised in a Christian part of the world?
Maybe you won the religion birth lotto and God placed you in America? Dont you think your place of birth will dictate your religion in most circumstances?
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So we'll pretend this relationship is real for the sake of your argument, even though it's bogus because your spouse is real and I could meet her instead of reading someone else's description and then pretend I know her based on what they wrote . . . even though I've never met the writer, but I do know the writer thought the world was flat didn't know about Mayans in Guatamala forming advanced societies at the same time that never heard of this . . . "wife".
Regardless, you now have to respect that Islam is real because they claim a relationship and relationships are real.
The single most effective ploy Lucifer has used to deceive man and claim souls is to convince people that all you need to do to be saved is accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
It's easy to spot these lost souls. Not only will they tell you that right up front, but they compound it by arguing against following Jesus's teachings on tolerance and helping those in need., Moreover, they are invariably the ones citing Old Testament justifications for hate, discrimination and violent retribution.
Lucifer loves you suckers. Not only are your souls already his, but you proselytize on his behalf.
The usual answer is that only those who have been exposed to Christianity and have not chosen to convert will be punished.
But what does that mean in operational terms?
Suppose you were never exposed to Christian teachings, so did not accept Jesus or follow his teachings. When you die, are you given another chance? Is purgatory perhaps a classroom with Christian literature and you are given some time to peruse it and come to the light?
Or do you, maybe, get a tour of Heaven and then get asked if you believe and accept? Surely that can' tbe the case, because even committed atheists would have to change their stance when confronted with clear evidence - so that would be unfair to those who went to Hell without seeing evidence.
If you're brainwashed with a religion other than Christianity, you will not convert and you will be sentenced to eternal hell, pain and suffering from the "loving" Christian God. In my example, Cruhawk and Lute would burn in hell because of religious geography.
If you have the option, after death to convert , why would a person waste time with unproven faith? Why not wait for proof and then decide?
Many Christians wont think objectively outside their religion box. They wont allow critical thinking to interfere with their path to the afterlife.
If you have the option, after death to convert , why would a person waste time with unproven faith? Why not wait for proof and then decide?
Many Christians wont think objectively outside their religion box. They wont allow critical thinking to interfere with their path to the afterlife.
I've often thought that the logical conclusion of this argument is that it makes exposing people to the religion hurtful.
Exactly. The problem, of course, is how do we know we'll be given the opportunity to convert after death?
Many (most? all?) religious people are convinced their choice is the only correct one. I mean can you really be a believer if you don't think that?
Yet they can't all be right, can they?
Careful now. I got royally bashed when I suggested that teaching kids to believe a religion could be considered child abuse.
I think children should not be exposed to religions until they are old enough to critically understand. When the are introduced to religion, they should be given all options to make an informed decision.
Religions obviously want to indoctrinate children early, use scare tactics (eternal hell for non believers) so they wont stray to ensure the money flow will continue.
Whaaat? No, Jesus wants his little lambs to stay in the flock. He's just been too busy to visit Earth and tell us the importance of his message. Better to let the story sit out there and marinate in thousands of years of misinterpretation than to spend the time to come back down and say "Hi!" to all of the new recruits. He's probably got some Excel sheets on backlog for his dad that are more important than getting out a clear message. It's that damned corporate culture.
This isn't some deep, mysterious question that can't be credibly responded to. Most believers who have studied their Bibles on a regular basis would have no trouble with it. I don't know Lutehawk, but I'm guessing he didn't dodge the question, and if he's been ignoring it, it probably isn't because it's beyond him. He could have thought it just wasn't worth his time. Which is where I'm getting to at this point. Consider this my final response in these threads.
The answer is clear, but you and others in this thread likely won't accept it. The Bible warns believers that God's Word is foolishness to the world and is confounding to those who are perishing. They laugh at it, and arrogantly attempt to marginalize people who believe.
The problem in this discussion is that both sides have no premises/foundations on which they can agree. In debate, each side has to agree on a basic idea, and only then can differences be discussed. That doesn't exist here, hence there can be no real debate. I've known a good number of atheists over the years. I've never met one who arrived at the conclusion that there is no God through an honest, objective, logical, completely rational thought process (i.e., "I really want to believe it, but I can't because it's not logical, rational, and makes no sense"). I won't say that there absolutely isn't one out there somewhere (I try to be careful with words like "always" and "never"). But the next one I meet will be the first one. Atheists start with the premise that there is no God before they begin any other thought "process". They believe that simply because they want to believe that. At its foundation, it's often not their fault. It may be because they were hurt by someone of faith, or disappointed/disillusioned in a church environment. I get that. But in the end, believers believe because they want to. The Bibles teaches that God calls all to a relationship with Him; the ones who respond to that call are believers.
Now, the response to your question PCB.
There are several references in Scripture that can be used to respond to this (often) legitimate objection, but Romans 1:18-20 says it clearly. In Romans 1:18-3:20 the apostle Paul develops the argument that no one can claim by his/her own efforts or merit to be good in God's sight--not the masses, not the Romans, or even the Jews. All people everywhere deserve God's condemnation for their sin. But how could a loving God send anyone to hell, especially one who has never heard about Christ? In fact, says Paul, God has revealed Himself plainly to all people through His creation. And people reject even this basic knowledge of God. Also, God has given everyone an inner sense of what He requires (some would call this the conscience), but they choose not to live up to it. Put another way, people's moral standards are always better than their behavior. If people suppress God's truth in order to live their own way, they have no excuse. They know the truth, and they will have to endure the consequences of ignoring it.
Some wonder why we need missionaries if people can know about God through nature (the creation). The answer: (1) Although people know that God exists, their wickedness blinds them to the truth. Missionaries sensitively expose their sin and point them to Christ. (2) Although people may believe there is a God, they refuse to commit themselves to Him. Missionaries help persuade them by sharing God's Word and by pointing out the dangerous consequences of their actions. (3) Missionaries help the church obey the Great Commission of our Lord (Matthew 28:19-20) (4) Most important, although nature reveals God, people need to be told about Jesus, and how, through him, they can have a personal relationship with God. So does anyone have an excuse for not believing in God? The Bible answers an emphatic no. Since He has revealed Himself through His creation, every person either accepts or rejects Him.
So what kind of God does nature reveal? Nature reveals a God of might, intelligence, and intricate detail; a God of order and beauty; a God who controls powerful forces. That is general revelation. Through special revelation (the Bible and the coming of Jesus), we learn about God's love and forgiveness, and the promise of eternal life. God has graciously given us many sources that we might come to believe in Him.
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Well, I guess we get to see your true colors here. You are completely making stuff up, refusing to answer the question and hiding behind voluntary ignorance. You say about atheists:
Are you kidding me? How can you type that? It's absurd! You think atheists just decide to not believe one day and then that's that? It just proves what you have said all along, that you refuse to read anything that doesn't support your beliefs. You are dishonest at best. All of the atheists I know (and I trust that I know a few hundred more than you do) have given the question of god a lot of thought. You believe in virgin births, zombies rising from the dead, a man who walked on water, talking animals and other fairy tales and the atheists are the ones who don't go through an honest, objective, logical, completely rational thought process? Give me a freaking break! There is no way you can possible believe that.
You think you would be a Christian if you grew up in Iraq with parents who were both radical Muslims? You really think so? Let's face it, without brainwashing children as soon as possible, religion would be nearly non-existent. Let's say you couldn't learn about religion until you were 21, how many people are going to believe all this stuff? Not many would be my guess.
I'm glad you are pleased with your religious choice and I'm sure you are a fine human being, but you are not equipped to debate religion on any platform. You have chosen to be willfully ignorant and that is unfortunate.
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