How would you run the race- You vs Team?

[Urohawk]

I thought this was a good non-political and interesting ethical question (also a HROT humble brag).

I know little about track. Team is competitive to win state this year. There is a senior runner on the team who is one of the best runners in the history of the state. He's signed for college so there aren't implications for the outcome.

My son specializes in the 800. His times would put him 7th at state last year and he's the states 2nd fastest sohomore in state currently. Son has a wicked kick that he can come from behind and thus not appear to be pressuring leaders. The amazing senior is doing mutliple distance events which he is predicted to win, but doesn't normally run them all together. If my son runs his best race, this senior runs multiple races, and the senior has one of his average 800 times, my son may be able to beat him.

Let me be perfectly clear. The senior would destroy my son if they lined up to race the 800m only. It's this unique situation for a possible upset. This would have several implications. My son would expend a lot of energy and may hurt the team because he's likely also running in relays.

Would you push the senior and try to win a state championship at the expense of the team score? Would you discuss with the coach and ask what they want him to run and follow it? Coach may want him to help pace, draft, shield senior from contact, etc.

 

[jawatkins]

Team points are a distant second place, run your race and worry about you.

 

[Nole Lou]

I was in track, although not competitive to that level. Track is primarily an individual sport at the end of the day...if an athlete has a chance to become a state champion, then they should go for it. I would be very appalled at a track coach that specifically denied a kid his chance to be a state champion. Who knows what happens next year...if he can do it, he should do it.

That being said...there are a lot of "ifs" here for this to even be possible. Your son (and you) do have a responsibility to be very realistic about the likelihood he beats a historically great runner at the states. What is the realistic chance that this senior shows up to his last States in an epic career and puts up his C- time, while your son runs the race of his life?

What is kind of dickish is for your son to burn himself out for his relay to finish a distant third. Or to refuse to pace for the senior, and then not even come close. At that point, it is starting to sound selfish. I mean, in basketball, if your son was a center who is 1-4 on the season from three point range, and your coach calls a play in the last second to get the ball to your All-American for the game winning shot of the state championship, it's pretty dickish for your son to take the shot instead because "well, if everything goes right, it could have gone in."

Not a perfect analogy, but I kind of feel like the coach might have a more impartial take on it. If he really thinks your son can win, he should be encouraging him to try. But I have no idea if he's shown himself to be a good and reliable coach.

In another race, I'd say feel it out in race. If you think you've got it, go for it. If it's the 1600, I'm guessing you have some sense midway through the third lap whether you've got the run of your life in you.

But the 800 is a nasty little piece of business for sure, its probably the toughest race to consider this. Not enough of an all out sprint to make strategy rather superfluous, but not long enough to let it really settle in and decide in race.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

I thought this was a good non-political and interesting ethical question (also a HROT humble brag).

I know little about track. Team is competitive to win state this year. There is a senior runner on the team who is one of the best runners in the history of the state. He's signed for college so there aren't implications for the outcome.

My son specializes in the 800. His times would put him 7th at state last year and he's the states 2nd fastest sohomore in state currently. Son has a wicked kick that he can come from behind and thus not appear to be pressuring leaders. The amazing senior is doing mutliple distance events which he is predicted to win, but doesn't normally run them all together. If my son runs his best race, this senior runs multiple races, and the senior has one of his average 800 times, my son may be able to beat him.

Let me be perfectly clear. The senior would destroy my son if they lined up to race the 800m only. It's this unique situation for a possible upset. This would have several implications. My son would expend a lot of energy and may hurt the team because he's likely also running in relays.

Would you push the senior and try to win a state championship at the expense of the team score? Would you discuss with the coach and ask what they want him to run and follow it? Coach may want him to help pace, draft, shield senior from contact, etc.

There’s one answer. Try to finish first and second and get the maximum amount of points for the team.

 

[Moral]

 

[LuciousBDragon]

My best advice is to provide a pic of both runners’ moms to help determine which one we should bang first.

 

[NDallasRuss]

Team points are a distant second place, run your race and worry about you.

I agree with that. I doubt any awards, medals, and/or college scholarships are being awarded for the guy who took one for the team and did his part to help someone else succeed. If your kid has a chance to win a state championship in an event, he should try and do that.

You ask the coach and they're going to tell you to do what's best for the coach, which is to help win a team championship. Screw that.

 

[Urohawk]

I was in track, although not competitive to that level. Track is primarily an individual sport at the end of the day...if an athlete has a chance to become a state champion, then they should go for it. I would be very appalled at a track coach that specifically denied a kid his chance to be a state champion. Who knows what happens next year...if he can do it, he should do it.

That being said...there are a lot of "ifs" here for this to even be possible. Your son (and you) do have a responsibility to be very realistic about the likelihood he beats a historically great runner at the states. What is the realistic chance that this senior shows up to his last States in an epic career and puts up his C- time, while your son runs the race of his life?

What is kind of dickish is for your son to burn himself out for his relay to finish a distant third. Or to refuse to pace for the senior, and then not even come close. At that point, it is starting to sound selfish. I mean, in basketball, if your son was a center who is 1-4 on the season from three point range, and your coach calls a play in the last second to get the ball to your All-American for the game winning shot of the state championship, it's pretty dickish for your son to take the shot instead because "well, if everything goes right, it could have gone in."

Not a perfect analogy, but I kind of feel like the coach might have a more impartial take on it. If he really thinks your son can win, he should be encouraging him to try. But I have no idea if he's shown himself to be a good and reliable coach.

In another race, I'd say feel it out in race. If you think you've got it, go for it. If it's the 1600, I'm guessing you have some sense midway through the third lap whether you've got the run of your life in you.

But the 800 is a nasty little piece of business for sure, its probably the toughest race to consider this. Not enough of an all out sprint to make strategy rather superfluous, but not long enough to let it really settle in and decide in race.

Yeah, part of this is the 800 is kind of a crazy race where the merge, traffic, etc can screw you. The odds are important and I agree with you. It's somewhere between a longshot and a may be. This guy is so damn good he can win by 5-6 seconds but he's going to be running a lot that day to try to get the team points. My son's times keep getting faster with every race because he's learning strategy to run with competitive guys and there are 3 more meets before state. He's shaved 2 seconds off every consecutive race he's ran and is now running 1:59s. That improvement is not sustainable.

The distance coach is awesome and is a nationally known runner and coach. Most likely we will defer to him. If they get separation I think he will say to come in 1 and 2 without burning out. The only exception to that if the weather is right and a state record is on the line in which case my son will pace him and they will go all out. If they're caught in a pack with other racers he will tell my son to try to win the whole thing.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

I thought this was a good non-political and interesting ethical question (also a HROT humble brag).

I know little about track. Team is competitive to win state this year. There is a senior runner on the team who is one of the best runners in the history of the state. He's signed for college so there aren't implications for the outcome.

My son specializes in the 800. His times would put him 7th at state last year and he's the states 2nd fastest sohomore in state currently. Son has a wicked kick that he can come from behind and thus not appear to be pressuring leaders. The amazing senior is doing mutliple distance events which he is predicted to win, but doesn't normally run them all together. If my son runs his best race, this senior runs multiple races, and the senior has one of his average 800 times, my son may be able to beat him.

Let me be perfectly clear. The senior would destroy my son if they lined up to race the 800m only. It's this unique situation for a possible upset. This would have several implications. My son would expend a lot of energy and may hurt the team because he's likely also running in relays.

Would you push the senior and try to win a state championship at the expense of the team score? Would you discuss with the coach and ask what they want him to run and follow it? Coach may want him to help pace, draft, shield senior from contact, etc.

Oh the luxury of having a boy. Imagine if you had a daughter that was at the top of the field and you had to worry about unfair competition.

 

[Urohawk]

Oh the luxury of having a boy. Imagine if you had a daughter that was at the top of the field and you had to worry about unfair competition.

Way to stay non political. I'm already in discussions about how my son can transition to win that championship for next year. I can do the surgery for free and get a discount rate for the operating room. Got to win em all somehow.

 

[fivecardstud14]

Oh the luxury of having a boy. Imagine if you had a daughter that was at the top of the field and you had to worry about unfair competition.

Quite the tool, aren't ya?

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

Way to stay non political.

You can afford that luxury. That's the point.

 

[jawatkins]

You can afford that luxury. That's the point.

If there’s one thing northern is passionate about, it’s kids’ genitals.

 

[ICWestfan]

Let the best man win, the rest (team) will take care of itself.

 

[ZachJump]

I have never really seen much evidence that running multiple races in a day is going to lower your times all that much.

An 800 is not going to hurt any distance runner for any following event - assuming something over 20 minutes downtime in between races. Have seen plenty run the 3200 in high school, second to last event, and turn around and run a 49 in the 4x400 a few minutes later.

I used to run the 800 or 1600, and 3200 in every high school track meet - the previous races never had any negative impact on the next one. Granted I was not a superstar - but the only times I ever went under 10 minutes in the 3200 was when I ran the 800, which was a very short break in between the two.

 

[Urohawk]

I have never really seen much evidence that running multiple races in a day is going to lower your times all that much.

An 800 is not going to hurt any distance runner for any following event - assuming something over 20 minutes downtime in between races. Have seen plenty run the 3200 in high school, second to last event, and turn around and run a 49 in the 4x400 a few minutes later.

I used to run the 800 or 1600, and 3200 in every high school track meet - the previous races never had any negative impact on the next one. Granted I was not a superstar - but the only times I ever went under 10 minutes in the 3200 was when I ran the 800, which was a very short break in between the two.

That's good to know. Again new to track so that perspective is very helpful. Also assume it takes a long time to run state meets so there would be more breaks.