This sounds like a whole lot of guilt coming from you. All I said was that people should become informed before making a decision on an issue. I'm not sure whey that's such a bad thing, although it would explain a lot in this country.
I won't see a respected political leader again in my lifetime
- Thread starter JRHawk2003
- Start date
This sounds like a whole lot of guilt coming from you. All I said was that people should become informed before making a decision on an issue. I'm not sure whey that's such a bad thing, although it would explain a lot in this country.
Do you mean allies as in U.S. Senators?
Evidence that the German Famine is Deliberate
Senator Homer E. Capehart of Indiana in an address before the United States
Senate February 5, 1946, said in part:
"The fact can no longer be suppressed, namely, the fact that it has been and
continues to be, the deliberate policy of a confidential and conspirational clique
within the policy-making circes of this government to draw and quarter a nation
now reduced to abject misery .
"In this process this clique, like a pack of hyenas struggling over the bloody
entrails of a corpse, and inspired by a sadistic and fanatical hatred, are
determined to destroy the German nation and the German people, no matter
what the consequences.
"At Potsdam the representatives of the United States, the United Kingdom, and
the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics solemnly signed the following declaration
of principles and purposes:
"'It is not the intention of the Allies to destroy or enslave the German people.'
"Mr. President, the cynical and savage repudiation of these solemn declarations
which has resulted in a major catastrophe, cannot be explained in terms of
ignorance or incompetence. This repudiation, not only of the Potsdam
Declaration, but also of every law of God and men, has been deliberately
engineered with such a malevolent cunning, and with such diabolical skill, that
the American people themselves have been caught in an international death trap.
"For nine months now this administration has been carrying on a deliberate
policy of mass starvation without any distinction between the innocent and the
helpless and the guilty alike.
"The first issue has been and continues to be purely humanitarian. This vicious
clique within this administration that has been responsible for the policies and
practices which have made a madhouse of central Europe has not only betrayed
our American principles, but they have betrayed the GI's who have suffered and
died, and they continue to betray the American GI's who have to continue their
dirty work for them.
"The second issue that is involved is the effect this tragedy in Germany has
already had on the other European countries. Those who have been responsible
for this deliberate destruction of the German state and this criminal mass
starvation of the German people have been so zealous in their hatred that all
other interests and concerns have been subordinated to this one obsession of
revenge. In order to accomplish this it mattered not if the liberated countries in
Europe suffered and starved. To this point this clique of conspirators have
addressed themselves: 'Germany is to be destroyed. What happens to other
countries of Europe in the process is of secondary importance.'"
These remarks were interspersed with a mass of supporting evidence.
AND:
Senator Eastland of Mississippi, for example, in a
stirring address to the United States Senate December 3, 1945, exposing the
chaotic conditions in Germany, told of the great difficulty he had encountered in
gaining access to the official report on conditions in the Reich made by Calvin
Hoover. He said the State Department at first refused to furnish him a copy of the
report, but that through the intercession of a high official in the department he
had been able to obtain it, but only "with the understanding and the promise
received from me first that the information therein would be made available to
the people of this country." Senator Eastland continued:
"There appears to be a conspiracy of silence to conceal from our people the true
picture of conditions in Europe, to secrete from us the fact regarding conditions
of the continent and information as to our policies toward the German people . . .
Are the real facts withheld because our policies are so cruel that the American
people would not endorse them?
"What have we to hide, Mr. President? Why should these facts be withheld from
the people of the United States? There cannot possibly be any valid reason for
secrecy. Are we following a policy of vindictive hatred, a policy which would not
be endorsed by the American people as a whole if they knew true conditions?
"Mr. President, I should be less than honest if I did not state frankly that the
picture is so much worse, so much more confused, than the American people
suspect, that I do not know of any source that is capable of producing the
complete factual account of the true situation into which our policies have taken
the Ameriean people. The truth is that the nations of central, southern, and
eastern Europe are adrift on a flood of anarchy and chaos."[25]
AND:
That the general European famine advertised by Washington is for the most part
German, as reported by Senator Butler of Nebraska after a trip through 33
countries, is indicated by the fact that UNRRA has been used "to finance
governments and not to feed the hungry." UNRRA has in effect supported these
governments, mostly satellites of the Soviet Union, by supplying them with
billions of dollars worth of goods which they, in turn, have sold to those with the
money to buy, thus bringing to themselves handsome revenues in lieu of
taxes.[30]
AND:
Senator Albert W. Hawkes, of New Jersey had made a strong appeal to the
President urging that private relief packages be permitted to prevent mass
starvation of the German people. In his reply, dated December 21, 1945,
President Truman professed that "there is as yet no possibility of making
deliveries of individual packages in Germany," because "the postal system and
the communications and transportation systems of Germany are in the state of
total collapse." He then said:
"Our efforts have been directed particularly toward taking care of those who
fought with us rather than against us - Norwegians, Belgians, the Dutch, the
Greeks, the Poles, the French. Eventually the enemy countries will be given some
attention.
"While we have no desire to be unduly cruel to Germany, I cannot feel any great
sympathy for those who caused the death of so many human beings by starvation,
disease, and outright murder, in addition to all the destruction and death of war.
Perhaps eventually a decent government can be established in Germany so that
Germany can again take its place in the family of nations. I think that in the
meantime no one should be called upon to pay for Germany's misfortune except
Germany itself.
"Until the misfortunes of those whom Germany oppressed and tortured are
oblivated [sic], it does not seem right to divert our efforts to Germany itself. I
admit that there are, off course, many innocent people in Germany who had
little to do with the Nazi terror. However, the administrative burden of trying to
locate these people and treat them differently for the rest is one which is almost
insuperable." (emphasis added)[32]
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/KEELINGgruesom.pdf
Most of what you call "special knowledge" is readily available concepts that are followed by most, until they don't gel with personal politics.
You argue against things so simple, like supply and demand, or, in this thread, the fact that every positive has a negative. These aren't hard concepts, and they aren't hidden from the public. The public just refuses to look at them for fear that it will destroy their house of cards.
I'll answer for him as he's given this information in the past.
Nole is most notably a line cook. He's worked in the restaurant business for a majority of his adult life. He finally just got accepted into a Master's program at the age of 40. Because he's now in a Master's program he has all the answers only the rest of us could dream of being knowledgeable of.
He's basically a f*** up who finally got his life on the right track (albeit 15 years too late) so just believe what he says. He's smarter than the rest of us.
I still don't get this, for someone who wants to consider all evidence and be informed before coming to a conclusion, you sure have everything figured out... the rest of us though...
Where did I say that I had everything figured out? I have some things figured out...but everything?
Look, I like to read books on Economics and History. Therefore, I might have a little more insight into those subjects than people who don't read up on them. Don't hold that against me, and don't take it to mean that I think I know everything about anything.
There is no point in trying to debate you or OiT with rational conversation. You've dismissed everything we've proposed because we're "ignorant" and you're "smart"
Link, please, to where I said anything about Bacque speaking 'nothing but the truth'. I called Ike a war criminal and posted a meme referring to it. IACub said he'd never heard of it so I googled German extermination camps and posted the first article that came up after briefly perusing it. I had read a book about it probably 15 years ago (which I obviously didn't have at my fingertips) so thought that might be a place for someone who had never heard of such a thing to start.
I never called Ambrose a blowhard. He was a disgraced liar and plagiarist.
Insult me all you want, I've been blessed with thick skin. Just get your facts correct before you do.
Of course not. I'm quite practiced at the art. You appear to be considering launching one at OiT now. I warn you, best respect his skills.
See Thorne. Nole checked a couple of books out at the library and he's the smartest guy in the room. He's a modern day Will Hunting.
I'm still convinced that Nole is just HawktimusPrime from WarChant. They're pretty much the same poster.
The Allies after WWII decided it was Germany's responsibility to rebuild their own country. Only efforts to alleviate starvation were to be made. Many felt this was an unfair way to treat a defeated people, and in many ways they proved to be correct - the only reason Germany is a NATO ally today is because we ultimately helped them rebuild their industrial base. These Senators were speaking to that. It is a huge intellectual leap to go from understanding that they were speaking out against the Allied nations practices to believe they were speaking out against a systematic genocide.
Oh, thank goodness. OiT has been at this for years: I'm just getting acclimated to dippin' my toes in the crazy pool.
"readily available concepts that are followed by most, until they don't gel with personal politics." - So you know what concepts are followed by most and you know then people stop following said concepts it is because of personal politics.
"The public just refuses to look at them for fear that it will destroy their house of cards." - So you have knowledge that the public could have if they just didn't refuse to do it, and you know that they refuse to obtain knowledge because they are afraid... you're not afraid though, you've got it all figured out.
Oh, thank goodness. OiT has been at this for years: I'm just getting acclimated to dippin' my toes in the crazy pool.
If you're not careful, you'll be taken as seriously as he is on this board.
Look around, dude. It's not like I'm going out very far on the branch with that observation. Throughout history, politicians have enunciated the positive and ignored the negatives in order to get legislation passed. Then you have people on these board arguing until they're blue in the face, all the while doing the same thing. People think that if something saves one persons life, then the policy is worth it, and they come to this observation without even talking about the negative side. This board is saturated with these threads from both sides.
Really? Cuz' when I read this from a U.S. Senator:
"In this process this clique, like a pack of hyenas struggling over the bloody
entrails of a corpse, and inspired by a sadistic and fanatical hatred, are
determined to destroy the German nation and the German people, no matter
what the consequences, it sure doesn't seem to be part of an innocent discussion
on the finer details of helping a country rebuild from war.
Kinda' sounds like a senator accusing his fellow politicians of genocide, butttttttt maybe that's just me.
Christ, he's talking about taking our boot off their throats and letting them rebuild as a nation, not keep them in the friggin' bronze age, as was the Allies policy. Many thousands of people did die because Germany was incapable of providing the most basic needs to a previously industrialized nation, to which many Americans objected. But again, you're making a huge leap of the Allies not helping them to a systematic genocide. The logic and evidence just isn't there, outside of one book that has been almost universally discredited.
You are doing a fine job at it.Oh, thank goodness. OiT has been at this for years: I'm just getting acclimated to dippin' my toes in the crazy pool.
Do you mean taken as seriously by a consensus of HROT brethren, or just you?
Because reading your posts, you strike me as a one who uses t
Awwwww, shucks.
Finish your thought please.
You read my posts? I feel privileged. Do you not read the responses to OiT's posts? It mostly involves asking him to not hijack a thread which he always does. Again, you're just as ignorant as those you call ignorant. You believe that the evidence you gather is 100% factual and any counter-argument is a lie. The cute part is that you actually think you're original with that behavior. I'll be the first to break it to you. You're not.
From the link above:
Historian Niall Ferguson calculated the mortality rates of POWs held by different nations as follows:
Percentage of POWs that Died:
Russian POWs held by Germans: 57.5%
German POWs held by Russians: 35.8%
American POWs held by Japanese: 33.0%
German POWs held by Eastern Europeans: 32.9%
British POWs held by Japanese: 24.8%
British POWs held by Germans: 3.5%
German POWs held by French: 2.58%
German POWs held by Americans: 0.15%
German POWs held by British: 0.03%
Why wont you investigate the truth? Why do you keep letting the conspiracy nuts lie to you? I know its so much more satisfying to think you have special insight. Two can play this game.
From what I've read about WWII POWs, which is a fair amount, those numbers sound pretty accurate. As for the special categories of Germans POWs Eisenhower created they were largely done for two reasons.
1.) In the spring of 1945 the German armed forces simply collapsed and as a result the Allies were taking millions of prisoners, overwhelming the prisoner of war camps. By the end of the war the Nazis lowered and raised conscription from 13 to 60 years old. In addition many of the rank and file Wehrmacht troops were briefly held and released. So many of the Germans held for a short period of time were either very young, old, or members of the Wehrmacht whose units were not tied to atrocities. Part of the unconditional surrender demanded by the Soviet Union and Western Allies required all Germans in uniform capitulate. Eisenhower's policies were both practical and humane.
2.) The Geneva Convention requires a thorough repatriation process. Millions of German troops were from eastern provinces that were conquered by the Soviet Union. Not only were they not inclined to return home - the Soviets had transferred German lands in the east to the Russian Soviet Republic and Poland. So no firm final destination was assigned to the departing POWs as their homes were no longer 'German.'
You know, you could actually read what the senator had to say. This was not about leaving the poor Germans alone, it was his plea to stop murdering them!
This repudiation, not only of the Potsdam
Declaration, but also of every law of God and men, has been deliberately
engineered with such a malevolent cunning, and with such diabolical skill, that
the American people themselves have been caught in an international death trap.
"For nine months now this administration has been carrying on a deliberate
policy of mass starvation without any distinction between the innocent and the
helpless and the guilty alike.
Those who have been responsible
for this deliberate destruction of the German state and this criminal mass
starvation of the German people have been so zealous in their hatred that all
other interests and concerns have been subordinated to this one obsession of
revenge.
'Germany is to be destroyed. What happens to other
countries of Europe in the process is of secondary importance.'"
Those are strong words from a senator to a president and his henchmen. For you to say it's mere semantics is so disingenuous it almost laughable. Nice try, though.
You are mistaking hyperbole for evidence. And beyond that, he's speaking to the Allies practice of not allowing Germany to rebuild to an industrial nation. He is NOT speaking about genocide. You're cherry picking out of context.
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The German D.E.F. (they weren't POWs) were given 1500 calories a day. That's not really starving. Hell I doubt most modern children of poverty get that many calories in a day.
I'd be happy to finish my thoughts: I had to leave for a bit and didn't realize that if you start typing that Big Brother retains all your thoughts.
When I replied to natural the partial reply to you was also posted. So here goes:Do you mean taken as seriously by a consensus of HROT brethren, or just you?
Because reading your posts, you strike me as one who uses the following methodology in responding to people with whom you disagree:
1) Facts. Well, basically the lack thereof. You are obviously so intelligent and full of them that you feel no need to share with the rest of us. This takes you directly to your next choice,
2) Insults: The last (well, mostly first) refuge of all great HROT scoundrels. Failing that, it appears that,
3) Threats are where it's at. As in threatening me that I won't be taken seriously on HROT if I don't knock it off!!
Don't care if I'm original. Don't care if I'm ignorant. Don't care if I hijacked a thread. And I really don't care if I'm ostracized by the likes of you.
Have a good day, son.
They were re-classified DEF from POW status so that Ike and his fellow ethnic-cleansers could torture and kill them, in direct violation of the Geneva Convention. Thus the 'war criminal' tag that he wore when he crashed the gates of Hell (assuming there is one.)
Well with all your 'special' insight into history,..do you believe the Allies starved close to 1,000,000 German POWs to death?
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Ohhhhhhhh, so THAT"S what a history buff is.
Someone who can look back on words spoken 60 years ago and know with absolute certainty that the man who spoke them didn't really mean what he said. Now I get it.
Ohhhhhhhh, so THAT"S what a history buff is.
Someone who can look back on words spoken 60 years ago and know with absolute certainty that the man who spoke them didn't really mean what he said. Now I get it.
No, it's someone who can read a quote and put it in the context of the era in which it was spoken.
I'd be happy to finish my thoughts: I had to leave for a bit and didn't realize that if you start typing that Big Brother retains all your thoughts.
Do you mean taken as seriously by a consensus of HROT brethren, or just you?
Because reading your posts, you strike me as one who uses the following methodology in responding to people with whom you disagree:
1) Facts. Well, basically the lack thereof. You are obviously so intelligent and full of them that you feel no need to share with the rest of us. This takes you directly to your next choice,
2) Insults: The last (well, mostly first) refuge of all great HROT scoundrels. Failing that, it appears that,
3) Threats are where it's at. As in threatening me that I won't be taken seriously on HROT if I don't knock it off!!
Don't care if I'm original. Don't care if I'm ignorant. Don't care if I hijacked a thread. And I really don't care if I'm ostracized by the likes of you.
Have a good day, son.
1. I linked sources to back up my facts like I have done many times in the past. Just because you chose to call the author of that source a "blowhard" doesn't mean they aren't facts. The problem is you chose not to educate yourself past what you perceive as "truth"
2. I don't think you finished this thought (becoming a trend?). Anyways, yeah I do insult people. But only after the facts have been placed in front of them multiple times and they refuse to look at them.
3. It wasn't a threat. There has been multiple examples of people not taking OiT seriously. Whether you care if people take you seriously or not, doesn't make it any less of a fact. Take a look around this board, I'm sure you can come to that conclusion on your own.
It's good that you don't care because you aren't original, you are ignorant (for the same reason you call others ignorant), and you aren't ostracized yet, but if you keep up the charades it won't be just me who's laughing at you.
Thanks dad.
Correct. They didn't have to follow the Geneva Convention. Most of the German D.E.F. would be considered to be treated poorly by today's standards. Nobody was ever arguing that we probably treated German soldiers poorly. But your main point in this thread was that Eisenhower killed millions of German POWs. That isn't even close to an accurate statement. Hell the guy making the original claim said "hundreds of thousands" and most people question that number. Are you moving the goalposts now from your initial claim?
Again, thanks for the laughs.
Stephen Ambrose was an Eisenhower biographer/historian, as well as being a well-known liar and plagiarist (not blowhard). He and seven of his fellow 'historians' at the - wait for it - Eisenhower Center for American Studies, decided that the book by Bacque was all lies. Well, knock me over with a feather. Who would have seen that one coming??
Propaganda, not history, is what the victors dole out.
By the way, I posted this meme, which was an accusation by Col. Fisher, n historian and veteran of the 101st airborne. He was the one who accused Ike directly of war crimes, fueled by ethnic hatred, in the murder of one million German men. But what the hell would he know: he was a historian and army veteran, not a bona fide history buff.
If you got a problem take it up with that Nazi sympathizer, Col. Fisher.
