If anyone has some time to kill on Netflix
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Watched the whole thing over the weekend. Trying to not spoil, but SLIGHT VAGUE SPOILERS FOLLOW: I can see the one, but am just speechless about the other one. Haven't done any research, though. Sometimes these documentaries omit relevant info.
I think attorney Len based his character on William H. Macy in Fargo. Am I right that he had just lost an election to become a JUDGE?
I think attorney Len based his character on William H. Macy in Fargo. Am I right that he had just lost an election to become a JUDGE?
Yep, came in 3rd in a three person primary.
What they did to that kid is just criminal. I can't believe what a pompous dbag the main prosecutor was. I'm still haunted by that kid sitting in jail. I can't stop thinking about it.
Watched the first 3 episodes last night. Unbelievable story. Thanks for suggestion.
I came across this over the weekend and was going to make a thread about it on Monday and saw this one.
I'm only through #4 right now, so I'm sure I'm like a toddler, not knowing the full extent of the story. At this point, I can't say there has been too much other content on TV that has me as rustled as this thing. I'm sure the content has been slanted towards Avery, but the behavior of some of the people charged with up holding the law has been sickening.
At this point, this is what I think...
This guy is somehow responsible for the death of that young girl.
I'm only through #4 right now, so I'm sure I'm like a toddler, not knowing the full extent of the story. At this point, I can't say there has been too much other content on TV that has me as rustled as this thing. I'm sure the content has been slanted towards Avery, but the behavior of some of the people charged with up holding the law has been sickening.
At this point, this is what I think...
Got through it all. I sure hope that prosecuting attorney is out of his job. What a schmuck!! I still don't know if Stephen & his nephew did all of this..
No way the kid was involved. Not even a prayer of a chance. I can see both sides of the Avery case, but he surely doesn't strike me as the murdering type. Which leads to the $64,000 question of who really did it, which I can't say.
Pretty sure the DA resigned in disgrace after the texting scandal.
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One of the better documentaries that I have seen in awhile. That poor 17 year old kid has been in prison now for close to 10 years. The interrogation of him was absolutely criminal and his original attorney was an unbelievable schmuck (just me or did he look like the main character in Fargo season 1?). That poor kid never stood a chance and I can't believe that he didnt' get a mistrial. And Steven has now spent over half of his life in prison for two crimes that he probably didn't commit.
I'm only halfway through it, but the way the investigators questioned that kid was sickening. I'm sure it only gets worse.
I could tell from the very first press conference that they showed of the guy that he was a huge toolbag.
Clearly someone that went into "public service" in order to feed his own ego and sense of self importance rather than to actually accomplish anything of value for society.
I have to wonder why the show didn't suggest any other suspects or what may have happened other than what the prosecution claimed. By the time it was over I was on the fence as to guilt or innocence but trials definitely sketchy from the start.
Well that's kinda the point. No one knows for sure. It's supposed to get you thinking so that you can make up your own mind. If there was another strong suspect, I'm sure it would have been mentioned. It seems like a ton of people had access to that property pretty much 24/7, so it literally could have been anyone (maybe even law enforcement).
Real life isn't neat and tidy like a scripted TV show or movie.
I was surprised the defense never brought in a blood spatter expert to explain that finding no blood in a death caused by gunshot to the head was impossible. If Steven shot her in the garage or bedroom there is no way he could clean that all up.
Exactly. But they spent the whole show just focusing on the framing defense and not one real mention of any other suspect. Why not insinuate the ex boy friend more for instance? I don't remember Avery ever explaining what he was doing during the time period of the crime being committed. Also, I don't agree that almost anyone could have done it. Avery's retorts over the phone never had substance, they always were just that the cops were out to get him. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying his is guilty for sure but the more I continued to watch the less I was convinced he was innocent like I was at the beginning. It sure looked like the kid got railroaded though...
Yep. The lack of blood in the house had to be the biggest issue they needed to use to confirm innocence. Place was a dump and surely there would have had to have been something there..
No blood in the house or garage, railroading the dumb kid, magically finding the bullet after 5 months by the cops who "handled" his first case, tampering with the blood vial, also the county had 37 million reasons to ensure he was found guilty. It doesn't stack up and I feel especially horrible for that dumb kid. This case shines light on all kinds of holes in our justice system. On a Sid note, Who spends 7 months in jail for a DUI? That seems excessive.
The defense missed the one month of cut off in Wisconsin law, that basically states you can't blame the crime on anyone else, unless you supply a list of suspects and legitimate potential evidence on why they are, or should be a suspect. It's probably eventually going to be found to be unconstitutional by the Feds, but it basically helped Wisconsin put away a lot of people. In this case, I'm pretty sure they had a few ideas, including the stalker, ex boyfriend, possibly the roommate. Heck, even the brother acted really weird. One day after she was declared missing, the brother was quoted as saying that he and his family were going through the grieving process.
Avery was with family, and on the phone with his girlfriend during the suspected murder time. The cops considered all of their testimony BS. They did have actual phone records, and recordings because the call was from, and to a prison.
There are likely 3-5 scenarios. You look at them and see which one is most likely. Also, think about it as if you had never heard the nephews first confession.
1. Steven Avery, who, after spending 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, gets out. He is nearing the end of winning a 18-28 million dollar lawsuit. A girl that he has done business with at least 4 other times, comes to his house to shoot photo's for Car Trader. This girl left a message, and had no sound of concern about going out there. She goes out, shoots photos of the car, and then Steven abducts her in broad daylight, drags her into his trailer, ties her to his bed, rapes her, nephew comes over, has him rape her, try to kill her by slitting her neck, choking her, and putting several bullets in her head. They then try to dispose of her body by burning her, but some how, spread her bones over three burn pits, with the pit having the most bone, right outside Steve's bedroom window. Cops eventually find the girls car on his property (under unusual circumstances), the only DNA they find is on a key (unusual circumstances), and on a bullet (unusual circumstances). Nobody is buying it until about 4 months later, when a 16 year old kid, who is learning disabled, is interviewed over 3 days without his mom, or an attorney and says he helped Steve do all these things. DA comes out to media and on TV, gives great detail of not what allegedly, happened, but in fact, what happened, simply based on that confession.
2. Lech, and several people involved in the wrongful imprisonment of Avery, tap his phone to see if they can prove he's not such a nice guy. They know the girl is going to be out there. She leaves, and gets pulled over. Lech puts a bullet in the back of her head, another through the temple. They burn her, and move her ashes to three possible locations on the Avery property so it won't be missed, putting most next to Avery's trailer.
3. Ex boyfriend, or stalker (there was one calling her) find her, kill her, and likely get caught. I don't see them trying to frame Avery, but maybe Manitowoc finds out, and helps.
4. His sisters ex husband (nephews step dad), or other family members do it, to set up Avery. The cops know it was somebody in the family, plant evidence to make sure Avery goes down for it.
5. Avery really did do it, but Manitowoc officers plant evidence to make sure he goes down for it this time.
In #1, SA was dumb enough to do all of that (leave car on property, leave key in room), but smart enough to clean up all blood, and DNA of the girl, and himself?
How the Nephews bogus confession was never thrown out by any credible judge is beyond me, and the lack of blood from a gruesome murder and the Rav4 found days later on their property and the car key in Averys bedroom sure seems like planted
evidence.
evidence.
I'm leaning towards #5 but #2 seems feasible to me too. The bleach on the boys clothes is a red flag to me. However, much of the core evidence is tainted and the scenario the cops gave was complete bull. I would not be able to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.
From Reddit:
I think that police tampering and clumsy efforts by the real killer caused Steven to be charged. My favorite suspects are Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych, but you could easily substitute any of the capable men living on the Avery property to fit my theory of the crime.
After entering her car to leave the Avery property, Theresa is stopped by Bobby and Scott as she tries to exit the scrapyard. She is forced at gunpoint to drive to a secluded area. There she is raped and shot in the head. Her body is loaded into the back of the Rav4 and transported to a corner of the scrapyard. The vehicle is hidden here.
Bobby and Scott retrieve a burn barrel and place the body within. They would not have to mutilate the corpse to fit her small frame inside a large barrel. They transport the barrel to the quarry. The body is burned there and the flames remain out of site from passers-by.
The next day, Bobby and/or Scott retrieve the barrel and dump the ashes in the Avery burn pit. At this point they probably are in possession of the Rav4 key by reflexively removing it from the ignition after dumping the Rav4. At this point, neither Bobby nor Scott are actively trying to frame Steven. They are simply covering the crime and disposing of evidence.
After Theresa has been reported missing, Officer Colburn finds the Rav4 on the Avery lot during an illegal search. He uses this opportunity to retrieve Steven Avery's blood from evidence and plant it at the scene. He then suggests to search party leaders that this area is of interest and instructs them not to touch anything if they find the car.
Once the Rav4 has been located by the search party, the area is a crime scene. Officers inform many members of the Avery and Dassey families that Steven is their #1 suspect. Bobby and Scott use this opportunity to further frame Steven by placing the key in his trailer several days into the investigation. They have full knowledge of DNA evidence, since it exonerated Steven once before, so they are careful to clean the key thoroughly.
During the investigation, officers find lots of junk in Steven's trailer, including evidence of his business interaction with Theresa. They also find restraints. Believing Steven to be a deviant, they begin to form a narrative based on rumors of Steven's past and the random items collected in his trailer. This narrative includes restraining and raping Theresa. Note that no physical evidence links Theresa to deviant sexual acts, only the imagination of investigators.
Later in the investigation, human remains are found in the fire pit and the cause of death is determined. Also, Rav4 keys are found in Steven's trailer. At this point, investigators are convinced Steven is guilty, so they attempt to discredit Steven's only alibi witness: Brenden Dassey.
Brenden is a simpleton, but investigators misconstrue his demeanor as consciousness of guilt. They coerce a statement from him that fits the narrative investigators have imagined: A brutal sexual assault followed by an execution. They immediately look for the physical evidence that should be abundant from such a crime.
Investigators find a bullet fragment in the garage of Steven Avery. This fragment lacks Theresa's DNA, but poor handling practices in the forensics lab return a positive result for Theresa's DNA. The technician bends the rules to allow the analysis to stick, believing that the other evidence against Steven is damning enough and the DNA is just another drop in the bucket.
From here, the State has sufficient physical evidence to charge Steven. Constant press conferences from the special prosecutor ensure that the public has a clear narrative to the horrific crime, even if that narrative is only supported by the imagination of investigators and not the physical evidence. The jurors of the trial are familiar with this narrative and attempt to fit the State's evidence to the story they were presented during the news cycle. The State does not present evidence during the trial of sexual assault and imprisonment. None-the-less, the jurors are very aware of the allegations. The defense is unable to adequately refute these rumors because they were not presented at trial.
Steven is found guilty through a combination of inappropriate press releases, popular local animus against the Avery family, and just enough physical evidence to keep the jurors from doubting their verdict.
I think that police tampering and clumsy efforts by the real killer caused Steven to be charged. My favorite suspects are Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych, but you could easily substitute any of the capable men living on the Avery property to fit my theory of the crime.
After entering her car to leave the Avery property, Theresa is stopped by Bobby and Scott as she tries to exit the scrapyard. She is forced at gunpoint to drive to a secluded area. There she is raped and shot in the head. Her body is loaded into the back of the Rav4 and transported to a corner of the scrapyard. The vehicle is hidden here.
Bobby and Scott retrieve a burn barrel and place the body within. They would not have to mutilate the corpse to fit her small frame inside a large barrel. They transport the barrel to the quarry. The body is burned there and the flames remain out of site from passers-by.
The next day, Bobby and/or Scott retrieve the barrel and dump the ashes in the Avery burn pit. At this point they probably are in possession of the Rav4 key by reflexively removing it from the ignition after dumping the Rav4. At this point, neither Bobby nor Scott are actively trying to frame Steven. They are simply covering the crime and disposing of evidence.
After Theresa has been reported missing, Officer Colburn finds the Rav4 on the Avery lot during an illegal search. He uses this opportunity to retrieve Steven Avery's blood from evidence and plant it at the scene. He then suggests to search party leaders that this area is of interest and instructs them not to touch anything if they find the car.
Once the Rav4 has been located by the search party, the area is a crime scene. Officers inform many members of the Avery and Dassey families that Steven is their #1 suspect. Bobby and Scott use this opportunity to further frame Steven by placing the key in his trailer several days into the investigation. They have full knowledge of DNA evidence, since it exonerated Steven once before, so they are careful to clean the key thoroughly.
During the investigation, officers find lots of junk in Steven's trailer, including evidence of his business interaction with Theresa. They also find restraints. Believing Steven to be a deviant, they begin to form a narrative based on rumors of Steven's past and the random items collected in his trailer. This narrative includes restraining and raping Theresa. Note that no physical evidence links Theresa to deviant sexual acts, only the imagination of investigators.
Later in the investigation, human remains are found in the fire pit and the cause of death is determined. Also, Rav4 keys are found in Steven's trailer. At this point, investigators are convinced Steven is guilty, so they attempt to discredit Steven's only alibi witness: Brenden Dassey.
Brenden is a simpleton, but investigators misconstrue his demeanor as consciousness of guilt. They coerce a statement from him that fits the narrative investigators have imagined: A brutal sexual assault followed by an execution. They immediately look for the physical evidence that should be abundant from such a crime.
Investigators find a bullet fragment in the garage of Steven Avery. This fragment lacks Theresa's DNA, but poor handling practices in the forensics lab return a positive result for Theresa's DNA. The technician bends the rules to allow the analysis to stick, believing that the other evidence against Steven is damning enough and the DNA is just another drop in the bucket.
From here, the State has sufficient physical evidence to charge Steven. Constant press conferences from the special prosecutor ensure that the public has a clear narrative to the horrific crime, even if that narrative is only supported by the imagination of investigators and not the physical evidence. The jurors of the trial are familiar with this narrative and attempt to fit the State's evidence to the story they were presented during the news cycle. The State does not present evidence during the trial of sexual assault and imprisonment. None-the-less, the jurors are very aware of the allegations. The defense is unable to adequately refute these rumors because they were not presented at trial.
Steven is found guilty through a combination of inappropriate press releases, popular local animus against the Avery family, and just enough physical evidence to keep the jurors from doubting their verdict.
The other interesting thing is the jury started out 7 not guilty, 2 guilty 3 undecided. The witness that had to be excused, was clearly in the not guilty group. The replacement came in. Clearly the two that were in the guilty camp, somehow got 6 people to change their mind, beyond a reasonable doubt. I also wonder if the judge clearly explained the verdict process to the jurors?
I'm going to make the bold assumption that it wasn't her first time being convicted on that charge.
The other really weird evidence is the blood found in the vehicle. The implication being that her body was placed there after she was dead.
Why would Avery need to do that if he was just going to drag her behind his house and burn her? Clearly, somone put that body in the car in order to transport it over a great distance (assuming it was there at all and all the blood evidence wasn't just planted by someone).
Why would Avery need to do that if he was just going to drag her behind his house and burn her? Clearly, somone put that body in the car in order to transport it over a great distance (assuming it was there at all and all the blood evidence wasn't just planted by someone).
1. How do so many people not realize Brendan is a simpleton/has a learning disability?
2. Theresa's brother acts weird
3. The lack of physical evidence is alarming
4. SA could have easily got rid of that car plus the car seems so staged with zero cleanup for someone that cleaned up the garage and trailer perfectly
5. Finding the bullet in the garage seems so unlikely especially with all the stuff plus no splatter
6. The jury seriously isn't going to buy into any of the cop framing stuff after all the shady stuff
I'm not saying SA didn't do it but it seems like half was so careless i.e. the car/bones next to the house and the other half so well done ie the garage cleanup and the trailer, that I just can't say this is what happened I have to think this was a frame job
2. Theresa's brother acts weird
3. The lack of physical evidence is alarming
4. SA could have easily got rid of that car plus the car seems so staged with zero cleanup for someone that cleaned up the garage and trailer perfectly
5. Finding the bullet in the garage seems so unlikely especially with all the stuff plus no splatter
6. The jury seriously isn't going to buy into any of the cop framing stuff after all the shady stuff
I'm not saying SA didn't do it but it seems like half was so careless i.e. the car/bones next to the house and the other half so well done ie the garage cleanup and the trailer, that I just can't say this is what happened I have to think this was a frame job
The brother (among 50 other people) really bothered me. Not only did he act extremely weird, he never seemed to want to find out what really happened to his sister. It was all about putting away Avery for life. If it was me, I would want to know if the extremely disturbing narrative made up by the DA (who turned out to be a sexter, among other things) was really how the last few moments of my sisters life went down, or if she simply died with a bullet to the back of the head, never even knowing she was used as a pawn by crooked officials.
I'm convinced that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych are both heavily involved with this. They both acted strange and their alibis didn't match up time wise. I don't think the Sherriff's office was involved with a frame job. I think Tadych and Dassey planted evidence after the fact. The lived a few hundred feet from SA's trailer. They could have easily planted every piece of evidence used to convict SA. But then again they don't seem like the brightest guys either. I think the Sherriff's office had target vision on SA and they were so focused on him that they never really looked anywhere else. SA doesn't seem like a killer to me. He had no motive to do it. I hope a really good attorney watches the documentary and takes the case pro bono. There has to be more to this story that nobody knows. It was an excellent documentary and well worth the 10 hours to watch it though. Side note, I don't know who I hate more between Lenk, Colburn or the DA. All three acted fishy throughout.
Most of the framing could have been done by Tadych and Dassey, some of it could have been pulled off by the ex. But, how do you explain the broken seal on SA's blood sample, with the pin hole (syringe) in the end of it? Also, Colburn just randomly called in her plates, and knew the make and model of the car, before it was found. I'm 100% convinced he was somewhere, looking at her car when he called it in. Also, Lench and Colburn where both present, and the ones that found the only two pieces of evidence that had DNA on them.
I'm a little concerned that Manitowoc had SA's phone tapped, and knew that girl was going to be there that day. Although they think she had multiple GSW's, they are pretty sure she had one through the back of the head, and side of her head. A trained person, would put one through the back, and then the temple, to make sure. I'm also a little concerned about the possible involvement of Fassbender and his partner. They are the ones that got the statement from the younger Dassey. Also, I think the FBI was involved. The test on the blood came back just in time, and pretty much killed the defense. Finally, jury tampering isn't something that is just pulled off by a few county officials. Is it possible for 1 or 2 strong dissenters to change the momentum of a jury, sure, it probably happens all the time.
In this case, had I been on the jury, I would have told my counterparts no matter how strange SA may be, there is no way I was going to consider him guilty, and no way I was going to change my mind. Unfortunately, it's human nature to want to place blame, and if not SA, who?
I told my wife early on, that something in the way they all talked. All the Manitowoc officials...I don't think it was even just about the money. Something in the first case must have been causing discomfort way up the line.
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anon_4v8fwjfqmw9bi
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I think it has to be SA or one of the Avery's who lived on the property. I just don't think the boyfriend or anyone else kills her on someone else's land, takes time to stay there to burn the body, reposition her SUV, and then spread the remains by moving them to a couple new locations. Anyone who didn't live there would not know where everything was located and would want to get away ASAP to avoid being spotted by one of the residents. The boyfriend of anyone else would stick out like a sore thumb lingering around on the Avery property while the body was burning.
And the only way the remains get spread over three locations is if she's put in the burn barrel starting at the quarry, then dumped off at the burn pit by SA's house, then the barrel is returned to its original location. It had to be a resident doing all that.
And the only way the remains get spread over three locations is if she's put in the burn barrel starting at the quarry, then dumped off at the burn pit by SA's house, then the barrel is returned to its original location. It had to be a resident doing all that.
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