There is no proof she was killed on Avery land. In fact, I think it's probable that she was killed somewhere else, and taken there. I get the boyfriend was a long shot in this case, but any other murder case, where the victim has a month worth of stalking calls, and you can damn sure bet the cops are investigating. In addition to the fact the ex, and her roommate, decided to essentially hack into her cell phone records. Also, somebody deleted messages, either them, or the brother.
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There is no proof she was killed on Avery land. In fact, I think it's probable that she was killed somewhere else, and taken there. I get the boyfriend was a long shot in this case, but any other murder case, where the victim has a month worth of stalking calls, and you can damn sure bet the cops are investigating. In addition to the fact the ex, and her roommate, decided to essentially hack into her cell phone records. Also, somebody deleted messages, either them, or the brother.
All very valid points and questions. I just don't want to believe that this many law enforcement officials would want to conspire together to put this guy away. It makes some sense with the lawsuit going on. I would have hammered Colburn about why he called in the plates between her disappearance and the car being found. Why would he have done that if he wasn't looking at the vehicle? I only see two ways that the vile of blood was tampered with, the cops (Colburn or Lenk) or Tadych somehow found his way in there without anybody catching him. Maybe it was a combination of things. Tadych plants the vehicle and once the cops find it, they add a little DNA to make sure they get SA? So many questions!
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anon_4v8fwjfqmw9bi
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Don't you think it's pretty unlikely she was killed somewhere else and taken there? She was last seen there, her SUV was found there, and her burned body parts were found there. There's just no evidence at all that she ever made it off that property. No one saw her anywhere else after she left the Avery property, no phone records from calls after she left, nothing.
Or think about it this way: if the ex or her roommate killed her someplace else, why would they have taken her back to the Avery property? That seems pretty damned risky, doesn't it? And that's the only plausible location where her body could have been burned, so that theory again requires them to come back, put her body in the burn barrel and burn it at the quarry, then once it cools, move it to the fire pit by SA's house, then return the burn barrel to the other burn spot, all the while avoiding detection by any of the Avery's living there. That just seems really far fetched to me, and is why I think it was one or more of the Avery clan who did it.
There is evidence that suggested Teresa's bleeding head was in the back of her Rav4. They found her hair in dried blood in the back. That leads me to believe that she was killed somewhere else and was transported to the Avery compound. Why would SA kill her at his property and then stuff her in the back of the Rav4? Again so many questions that I need answered!
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anon_4v8fwjfqmw9bi
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Good questions. I think she was killed near SA's house or somewhere on the property not near the quarry -- which looked on the map to be pretty remotely located on the edge of the property -- then put in her SUV and driven to the quarry. She was burned there because it was a remote location less likely to attract attention.
Everybody gets it, they just don't give a f%^k.
He was initially the key to getting Steven. Remember, there was no plausible case from the state prior to his confession and arrest. Then they use publicity to convict both of them in the public eye.
After it's determined how unreliable he is, they don't even use him in the prosecution of his uncle. But they can't just let him go at that point. They put so much time and effort into convincing everyone that he was guilty of a brutal rape and murder. So they offer him a plea deal, which he refuses because he's innocent, then easily convict him based on the false confession and same pre-trial publicity that convicted Steven.
The appeals process is greatly stacked against him (same judge as for his trial) making an honest weighing of the circumstances of the case nearly impossible. No appellate court wants to risk letting such a high profile convicted murderer just walk out of jail, so they decide to leave him there for 40 years.
It's an indictment of the entire system.
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There is stuff on the internet about evidence against SA that was ruled inadmissible. There is also something by the same blogger anonymously implicating four other potential suspects, but the defense was not allowed to use these arguments either.
Even after reading these things, I still do not believe reasonable doubt was avoided. I personally believe it was another party, and the law enforcement was extremely shoddy in their police work due to tunnel vision. I sincerely hope Dassey is granted another trial by the federal authorities.
This story will haunt me for some time.
Even after reading these things, I still do not believe reasonable doubt was avoided. I personally believe it was another party, and the law enforcement was extremely shoddy in their police work due to tunnel vision. I sincerely hope Dassey is granted another trial by the federal authorities.
This story will haunt me for some time.
I found this online and it gives more details about Avery.
The documentary said that part of Avery’s criminal past included animal cruelty. To my recollection, it didn’t specify exactly what that animal cruelty was. I know that for some of our readers, knowing is enough to want to see Avery get the death sentence regardless of whether he murdered Halbach: He doused a cat in oil and threw it on a bonfire (this is not relevant to the murder trial, but it certainly diminishes the sympathy some of us felt for him).
— Past criminal activity also included threatening a female relative at gunpoint.
— In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.
— Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn’t want to go out to Avery’s trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.
— On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.
— The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.
— Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he’s purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he’d had a tumultuous relationship — at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).
The documentary said that part of Avery’s criminal past included animal cruelty. To my recollection, it didn’t specify exactly what that animal cruelty was. I know that for some of our readers, knowing is enough to want to see Avery get the death sentence regardless of whether he murdered Halbach: He doused a cat in oil and threw it on a bonfire (this is not relevant to the murder trial, but it certainly diminishes the sympathy some of us felt for him).
— Past criminal activity also included threatening a female relative at gunpoint.
— In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.
— Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn’t want to go out to Avery’s trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.
— On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.
— The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.
— Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he’s purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he’d had a tumultuous relationship — at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).
Yes, PCB, this is what I read online as well. I agree that some of these details shed a different light on Avery, but there is such an amazing lack of evidence to support his guilt, and the evidence they have has enough doubt related to it that it doesn't satisfy my "beyond reasonable doubt" radar. It does probably explain why her family was so convinced that Steven Avery was guilty, though. I get that.
No DNA in his bedroom. No blood spatter on the garage floor, and they even broke the cement to test the cracks. As a result, the primary crime scene was never even identified. Further, the questions about why Halbach's blood was in the rear of the RAV4 doesn't make sense. Why wasn't the car crushed? Why was it located at the front of the property?
Combine these questions with the fact that the incriminating evidence was found after many, many onsite searches, and it does seem to point to me that there was tampering going on to some degree. That alone should make a jury very hesitant to make a conviction.
Furthermore, I can't understand how anyone can be convicted of rape when there was absolutely no evidence to support that a rape actually occurred. The only "evidence" was the admission of a 16-year-old with severe learning disabilities who later recanted his story. Dassey's story was never corroborated by anyone or by any physical evidence, which I thought was necessary for a charge if not a conviction.
No DNA in his bedroom. No blood spatter on the garage floor, and they even broke the cement to test the cracks. As a result, the primary crime scene was never even identified. Further, the questions about why Halbach's blood was in the rear of the RAV4 doesn't make sense. Why wasn't the car crushed? Why was it located at the front of the property?
Combine these questions with the fact that the incriminating evidence was found after many, many onsite searches, and it does seem to point to me that there was tampering going on to some degree. That alone should make a jury very hesitant to make a conviction.
Furthermore, I can't understand how anyone can be convicted of rape when there was absolutely no evidence to support that a rape actually occurred. The only "evidence" was the admission of a 16-year-old with severe learning disabilities who later recanted his story. Dassey's story was never corroborated by anyone or by any physical evidence, which I thought was necessary for a charge if not a conviction.
I urge everyone to read up on the case, specifically about things the documentary left out, before making up their minds. The documentary left out some key elements. One of which was that Avery's sweat was found in her vehicle and on the key.
http://mobile.onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery
http://mobile.onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery
I just finished watching this.
I don't believe Brendan Dassey had any involvement. The poor kid had no clue the situation he was in. I can't believe he couldn't get a retrial from the actions of his first defense lawyer.
Steve Avery, I'm leaning towards he had no involvement also. I think the Manitowoc police were going to do all they could to ensure it would get pinned on Steve. Even if Steve did do it, it definitely was not in the manner that the prosecution posited.
Here is another interesting little read that was in the comments of an article someone posted above.
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html
I don't believe Brendan Dassey had any involvement. The poor kid had no clue the situation he was in. I can't believe he couldn't get a retrial from the actions of his first defense lawyer.
Steve Avery, I'm leaning towards he had no involvement also. I think the Manitowoc police were going to do all they could to ensure it would get pinned on Steve. Even if Steve did do it, it definitely was not in the manner that the prosecution posited.
Here is another interesting little read that was in the comments of an article someone posted above.
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html
I wouldn't call that a counterpoint as it doesn't refute anything in the other link. Without looking, it might even
be by the same author. But it is another good source of information. I'm not necessarily in the "fry Avery" camp. I only wanted to point out that the documentary, no matter how awesome, doesn't tell the whole story of even evidence presented in the case itself let alone stuff that wasn't admissible in court.
Making a determination of guilt or innocence based only off the documentary is ignorant, IMHO.
Thanks a lot HROT. I had to binge watch this all weekend because of the reviews above. Just finished.
From my liberal leaning, somewhat scientific, and legal background:
Brendan had nothing to do with it and I pray there is payback in the next life for the prosecutors and investigators who repeatedly interviewed him and made him "confess". The kid was about as smart as a 6 year old. I could have made him confess to the Kennedy assassination if you gave me three hours in a room with candy bars and sodas as rewards for him. Very sad that he is in jail today.
Almost every attorney was an embarrassment to my profession. The first appointed attorney for Brendan should not be able to practice law. The replacement D.A. is a tool. The main attorney for Brendan couldn't find a suit and shirt to fit him. Avery's 2 prime attorneys were strong.
Avery - I can see how he was convicted. Who else did it? Why are her bones on his property? I'm not a big believer in the frame up theory - other than the key and bullet fragment. How does the key have his DNA but not hers - someone scrubbed it up before planting. The EDTA testing evidence - I have to read more about.
My biggest problem was the lack of blood evidence. You will note in Avery's trial the tool D. A. said the murder happened in the garage. In Brendan's trial he said the bedroom. In either case, none of the suspects was smart enough to clean the scene up to leave no DNA evidence anywhere. I don't this I could eliminate all DNA if I had the 5 days. And none of the potential murder locations looked like a place that could be so thoroughly cleaned that no DNA was found. The trailer looked like something from Hoarders. If I was defending Avery, I would have pounded on the lack of blood. Nothing on the soft surfaces like the mattress? No Luminol positive in the garage?
My personal belief is the 2 kids with mismatched timelines had something to do with it. The photographer comes out to photograph, they run into her, kill her off property, transport her in the back of the Rav4, burn her at their place, then take the charred bones to Avery's pit and "hide" the car on the Avery property.
I also think law enforcement may have tried to reinforce their belief in Avery as suspect. I saw no reasonable answer why the deputy knew her license plate and make and model before he could have been informed during the investigation.
I'm going online to read all the briefs and see if there is more than what was shown.
I'm sad Brendan didn't get post-conviction relief given his attorney and investigator's action.
From my liberal leaning, somewhat scientific, and legal background:
Brendan had nothing to do with it and I pray there is payback in the next life for the prosecutors and investigators who repeatedly interviewed him and made him "confess". The kid was about as smart as a 6 year old. I could have made him confess to the Kennedy assassination if you gave me three hours in a room with candy bars and sodas as rewards for him. Very sad that he is in jail today.
Almost every attorney was an embarrassment to my profession. The first appointed attorney for Brendan should not be able to practice law. The replacement D.A. is a tool. The main attorney for Brendan couldn't find a suit and shirt to fit him. Avery's 2 prime attorneys were strong.
Avery - I can see how he was convicted. Who else did it? Why are her bones on his property? I'm not a big believer in the frame up theory - other than the key and bullet fragment. How does the key have his DNA but not hers - someone scrubbed it up before planting. The EDTA testing evidence - I have to read more about.
My biggest problem was the lack of blood evidence. You will note in Avery's trial the tool D. A. said the murder happened in the garage. In Brendan's trial he said the bedroom. In either case, none of the suspects was smart enough to clean the scene up to leave no DNA evidence anywhere. I don't this I could eliminate all DNA if I had the 5 days. And none of the potential murder locations looked like a place that could be so thoroughly cleaned that no DNA was found. The trailer looked like something from Hoarders. If I was defending Avery, I would have pounded on the lack of blood. Nothing on the soft surfaces like the mattress? No Luminol positive in the garage?
My personal belief is the 2 kids with mismatched timelines had something to do with it. The photographer comes out to photograph, they run into her, kill her off property, transport her in the back of the Rav4, burn her at their place, then take the charred bones to Avery's pit and "hide" the car on the Avery property.
I also think law enforcement may have tried to reinforce their belief in Avery as suspect. I saw no reasonable answer why the deputy knew her license plate and make and model before he could have been informed during the investigation.
I'm going online to read all the briefs and see if there is more than what was shown.
I'm sad Brendan didn't get post-conviction relief given his attorney and investigator's action.
Why would a guy about to get paid and out of jail all those years commit a crime like this in the afternoon while other family members are out and about. Any of a number of people could have or would have seen this going on. Also, many saw her there... why would he kill her with so many people having seen her there??? Finally, if he did all of this nasty stuff then where was the blood on the bed, walls, carpet, garage, tons of crap inside garage, etc? It doesn't add up.
Not sure I think cops did it, but maybe they did. In all instances in the past SA admitted guilt and did the time. He denied the rape and was proven innocent. He denies this one all these years later too.
Lenk, Colburn and the Manitowoc Co Sheriff clearly had it out for him and appear to have planted evidence and got caught lying many times on the stand. Why do that if SA really did it and they had evidence?
Just a crazy story... crazy.
Not sure I think cops did it, but maybe they did. In all instances in the past SA admitted guilt and did the time. He denied the rape and was proven innocent. He denies this one all these years later too.
Lenk, Colburn and the Manitowoc Co Sheriff clearly had it out for him and appear to have planted evidence and got caught lying many times on the stand. Why do that if SA really did it and they had evidence?
Just a crazy story... crazy.
If you want to continue with documentaries that show an incompetent legal system, check out the 3 Paradise Lost movies, from HBO. I remember watching the first one when it came out while I was in high school. I had never been so angry about something that didn't direct effect me. Check it out.
What needs to be "refuted?"
The link that you posted is fairly stupid. One of the items is that "pornography was found in Avery's residence."
Well Ho Lee Chit. If that is suddenly evidence of murder, every single male on the planet will be sent to the gas chamber.
The idea that the disgraced prosecutor is claiming that Avery's sweat was found doesn't prove anything. That already showed at trial that one of the lab reports was doctored to alter the results. They could have come back with anything and I wouldn't believe it. Leg irons were found, but conveniently no DNA was evident, anywhere?
The prosecutor claims that the bullet fragment found was fired from Avery's gun, which, quite conveniently, was in police custody FOR MONTHS between the time of his arrest and when the bullet was conveniently "found" after months of searching his garage. What a coincidence!
It's just a bunch of nonsense and crap, just like everything else in this case. You labeling this stuff as "evidence" and claiming it shows anything more than the reasonable doubt that was demonstrated in the documentary makes you look rather foolish.
My goodness--the anger in your message. Really not necessary in this civil discussion.
There are certainly some take it or leave it points in that link. I LOL'ed at the pornography one. Totally a "give me a break" point. I certainly do not want anyone searching my evidence for pornography.
But it certainly wasn't all nonsense. The documentary ignoring the detection of Avery's sweat in the vehicle and on the key is a rather questionable omission from the documentary, IMHO. My goal was only to point out that the doc didn't quite tell the whole story. Maybe 95% of it. Maybe more. Maybe less. But it doesn't tell the entire story.Don't worry, buddy. I'm hardly siding with the prosecution. These people were some combination of inept, self serving, moronic, unethical and maybe just deplorable people.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm sure the documentary said his DNA was on the key. The documentary did omit his DNA on the underside of the hood. I saw nowhere online where his DNA in any form -- other than blood in 3 spots -- was found in the car.
What I found somewhat interesting is that the car key is not the main ignition key - it's the backup "valet key". I don't think she was using the valet key to drive, and either way, her DNA should have been on that key -- but it wasn't. It's almost like someone found the valet key, wiped it clean with bleach, etc. and then tossed it on the floor of his bedroom -- where is would almost certainly pick up his DNA.
And again, you are just taking the prosecution's word for it. Why is their statement of that alleged "fact" so sacrosanct for you?
If blood or any other evidence was planted, certainly they could have made up or lied about sweat being found.
Not saying it was or wasn't, but the simple fact that the prosecutor says that it was, particularly when weighed against the multiple other phony and bogus lab reports in this case (both the state crime lab AND the freaking FBI), doesn't exactly hold a tremendous amount of weight with me.
Deep breaths. It is just more to consider. You've made up your mind on it. I have no issue with that and don't even necessarily disagree. Again, for like the 4th time, my only point has been that there are elements of the story that weren't represented in the documentary and just to be aware of it.
It isn't like watching JFK and determining Oswald didn't do it but it's in the same vein.
Sorry if already mentioned, but this is interesting and is where I was thinking. This is an interesting article on the suspects the Defense wasn't allow to bring up during the trial. Who might have done it?
I was thinking Todych (sp?) and Brenden's brother might have been legit suspects. Both were there, both seemd like they were glad SA got pegged for crime and both was each others alibi... hell the brother was like ask him (Todych)... he can pin point the time exactly. Did these two "go hunting" or did these two disappear because they had Teresa and were doing bad things to her. They wouldn't know how to compact car or do it without others seeing and knowing what's up, but they would instead try to hide car among hundreds of other cars since it is much easier to do without being seen. They would have a good idea of the property layout too.
I was thinking Todych (sp?) and Brenden's brother might have been legit suspects. Both were there, both seemd like they were glad SA got pegged for crime and both was each others alibi... hell the brother was like ask him (Todych)... he can pin point the time exactly. Did these two "go hunting" or did these two disappear because they had Teresa and were doing bad things to her. They wouldn't know how to compact car or do it without others seeing and knowing what's up, but they would instead try to hide car among hundreds of other cars since it is much easier to do without being seen. They would have a good idea of the property layout too.
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The kid also lied about what time he was home and that he saw Teresa go towards Avery's trailer.
The bus driver confirmed that he was dropped off at the normal time, a full hour later than he claims to have gotten home.
The ex-boyfriend was my first thought when I was watching him do interviews and helping with the search, etc. Then, when I saw the stuff about the phone I still thought he/roommate might have been it. That said, I have no idea what town Teresa lived in nor where they lived. Unless it was in that area I don't know that it was them. The crime had to have happened in Manitowoc Co where the cops would have found things and then move them to the Avery property to finally get the guy they likely thought did it or to get rid of the guy who will cost them 36M.
I just think there's no way the cops killed her. I think someone else did it. Either other family did it and SA took the blame or someone else (BF/Roommate, brother?) if they leved in the county too and it isn't a reach to suggest the police found it, but then moved things to the Avery's. I just don't think SA did it and see no way the dumb kid did it.
It happened between 5pm and 9pm, right? We know that several saw the bonfire and I think more than SA and Brenden were at this. They gathered wood and stuff to burn together too. Then by 9pm or so he was on the phone recorded by prison. So, if they gathered wood and had fire the crime had to have happened between 5-7ish? That's not a very big window to do all the things they were accused of and then clean up while nobody else saw anything.
Someone followed her or got here in the country and brought her back or the police brought enough evidence back to make sure they got somebody for it. Anyway, that's my theory.
I just think there's no way the cops killed her. I think someone else did it. Either other family did it and SA took the blame or someone else (BF/Roommate, brother?) if they leved in the county too and it isn't a reach to suggest the police found it, but then moved things to the Avery's. I just don't think SA did it and see no way the dumb kid did it.
It happened between 5pm and 9pm, right? We know that several saw the bonfire and I think more than SA and Brenden were at this. They gathered wood and stuff to burn together too. Then by 9pm or so he was on the phone recorded by prison. So, if they gathered wood and had fire the crime had to have happened between 5-7ish? That's not a very big window to do all the things they were accused of and then clean up while nobody else saw anything.
Someone followed her or got here in the country and brought her back or the police brought enough evidence back to make sure they got somebody for it. Anyway, that's my theory.
I actually thought they did. The ex boyfriend and her male room mate. I thought they tried pointing discreetly to them but we're being careful not to set themselves up for a lawsuit. Possibly.
At least that was how I saw it. The ex sure looked guity when he was questioned about her voice mail being tampered with.
I believe len kachinsky should be disbarred and never allowed to work in law ever again. Of course, he was hoping to become a politician so yeah it all makes sense. What a piece of crap. He didn't even attempt to defend Brandon at any point.
I believe either the 2 boys did it or Avery actually did it. More likely the boys
I believe if she was killed on property she was probably raped and murdered out side not in a building. No matter who did it.
She could have been shot on premises or just beat up and then transported to a remote location where she was burned. Why bring parts back to the property? That doesn't make sense. Unless it was just dumb luck that Steve Avery happened to be having a large bonfire and the boys weren't successful burning her body elsewhere with just firewood. Needed tires etc and Avery's fire woukd do the trick.
Where I believe the police are involved:
I think the cop discovered the car first and wanted to make sure they had a strong case against Avery.
I believe he took the key and used the blood in storage to leave Avery's DNA in the car and on the key and later planted the key.
I believe either the 2 boys did it or Avery actually did it. More likely the boys
I believe if she was killed on property she was probably raped and murdered out side not in a building. No matter who did it.
She could have been shot on premises or just beat up and then transported to a remote location where she was burned. Why bring parts back to the property? That doesn't make sense. Unless it was just dumb luck that Steve Avery happened to be having a large bonfire and the boys weren't successful burning her body elsewhere with just firewood. Needed tires etc and Avery's fire woukd do the trick.
Where I believe the police are involved:
I think the cop discovered the car first and wanted to make sure they had a strong case against Avery.
I believe he took the key and used the blood in storage to leave Avery's DNA in the car and on the key and later planted the key.
I believe the police knew Halbach was going to Avery's property. They knew she was the best chance to put him away. So, they pulled her over after she left the property, shot her, and put her in the back of the Rav4. They drove her to the quarry and burned her only to later scatter some bones at two other locations on the property to ensure someone would find them. They then planted the key, bullet fragment and the blood in the vehicle while they had access to the property and belongings during the 8 day search that Manitowoc wasn't supposed to be a part of, but were.
I do not believe Avery would commit such a crime on his own property after having done 18 years in prison. He had access to heavy machinery and a car crusher on his property, but everything was easily found in plain sight. This was a case of the police manipulating the system to put away a guy that they hated.
I do not believe Avery would commit such a crime on his own property after having done 18 years in prison. He had access to heavy machinery and a car crusher on his property, but everything was easily found in plain sight. This was a case of the police manipulating the system to put away a guy that they hated.
I'm on to episode 3. I have been slow going, but at the very LEAST the convictions should be thrown out and a re-trial happen. I just don't know it could go down. The fact that the Sheriff's Department that was in an ONGOING LAWSUIT filed by a potential suspect are allowed to collect (and magically find that which was overlooked) evidence is just mind-bogglingly incompetent.
West of Memphis is a different documentary but based on the same case. It was an HBO documentary so I'm surprised it's not on HBOgo. I believe it's on Netflix if you have the service that mails DVDs.
I just finished watching this over the past three days. I finished the last two episodes this afternoon. I was pretty much thinking this exact same thing as far as suspects go. The roommate or whatever was also kind of a weird situation with the passwords and voicemail accounts.
The defense pretty much shredded the prosecutions case with reasonable doubts...i just wonder if the jury were too scared to let him go, thinking that everybody involved from the county would f**k with them down the road.
That's basically what one of the jurors said recently, that if they county could frame Avery, they feared they might be next.
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