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Illegal Immigrant Offending Rate Lower Than U.S.-Born Citizen Rate

I excluded the immigration offenses. You didn't read my post or the linked data.
Did you read it? What am I missing?

The most common guidelines under which non-U.S. citizens were sentenced include: Immigration (72.3%); Drug Trafficking (16.7%); Fraud (3.3%); Money Laundering (1.9%); and Firearms (1.6%).[2]

And even then, this is federal sentencing. . . which makes up a small portion of all criminal activity that may receive sentencing.
 
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Then you should be able to point out the err in my ways.

So if you're only interested in absolute numbers -- num of murders period -- then you'd also be against any sort of legal immigration. Because some of those people will murder as well, even if at rate far less than existing citizens. They could be a great net benefit, but, they're going to up the murder total.

Anything that increases population increases absolute murder totals. (in a direct sense)

So you're going to have to figure out how that works and where you stand.

And no, this isn't an argument for illegal immigration. I'm in the camp that wants to control it much better than we do now, so as to create an orderly process that brings useful people in, and leaves out those likely to (or that have already) cause trouble.
There’s a vetting process for those coming through legal channels… while it might not be 100% it’s still better than no vetting at all as we have with undocumented people.

Wanting to keep undocumented people out, and wanting people to go through the process whether that’s immigration or asylum isn’t a bad thing.

I don’t care if they’re as white as the driven snow from Finland… if they want to come here, go through the process.

Yeah it sucks, there’s vetting and probably a wait list and still no guarantee you get accepted… but legal immigrants are some of our nation’s best and brightest people, and I don’t want to discourage them from coming or disparage them in any way.
 
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I'm not sure how you can calculate a rate when you don't know how many illegal immigrants are in the country.

I do understand how they can get the headline they want by being selective about the crimes they include.

Genius, people will eat this up and post it on message boards to make the point...'Hey guys, sure illegals kill people, but is it really that bad? Shouldn't we just do nothing and let them continue to stream across the border?'

Great argument...
 
I'm not sure how you can calculate a rate when you don't know how many illegal immigrants are in the country.

I do understand how they can get the headline they want by being selective about the crimes they include.

Genius, people will eat this up and post it on message boards to make the point...'Hey guys, sure illegals kill people, but is it really that bad? Shouldn't we just do nothing and let them continue to stream across the border?'

Great argument...
That’s why the Biden administration has ushered in millions of them… 100 murders spread out over 10 million illegals is a drop in the bucket
 
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It’s exactly what you said.
You don’t believe that a large segment of the illegal immigration bucket is filled with people who initially entered legally but have become illegal due to their visas or whatever the legal option was to begin with expiring?

That’s not remotely “legal illegal aliens”
 
You don’t believe that a large segment of the illegal immigration bucket is filled with people who initially entered legally but have become illegal due to their visas or whatever the legal option was to begin with expiring?

That’s not remotely “legal illegal aliens”
There probably are. And they should be deported like other immigration criminals.
 
I'm not sure how you can calculate a rate when you don't know how many illegal immigrants are in the country.

I do understand how they can get the headline they want by being selective about the crimes they include.

Genius, people will eat this up and post it on message boards to make the point...'Hey guys, sure illegals kill people, but is it really that bad? Shouldn't we just do nothing and let them continue to stream across the border?'

Great argument...
Of course that isn't the argument I was making with my post.

Anti immigration persons regularly cite statistics that estimate how many people are in the country. And numbers concerning crime. Perfect accuracy? No. Enough to derive some information related to how we think about immigration? Apparently.

The stats I cited pointed to major crime. Which is what I was interested in talking about.
 
There’s a vetting process for those coming through legal channels… while it might not be 100% it’s still better than no vetting at all as we have with undocumented people.

Wanting to keep undocumented people out, and wanting people to go through the process whether that’s immigration or asylum isn’t a bad thing.

I don’t care if they’re as white as the driven snow from Finland… if they want to come here, go through the process.

Yeah it sucks, there’s vetting and probably a wait list and still no guarantee you get accepted… but legal immigrants are some of our nation’s best and brightest people, and I don’t want to discourage them from coming or disparage them in any way.
Obviously a vetting process is ideal, obviously a controlled process that considers who might best contribute to the country is ideal.
 
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Not really. Whatever the rate of U.S. born crime is I can guarantee it’s lower than 100%.
Plus many Democrat hack DA’s and Mayors have political agendas to look the other way when certain races commit crimes.
It depends on what you consider a crime. The average American breaks the law 7 times a day.
 
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Because people on the right seem to paint an inaccurate picture of these people as dangerous criminals. I was criticizing the misleading rhetoric by many right wingers.

I was pointing out that we don't have good data for this... and in fact, they seem less of a threat.

If anything I have less reason to fear an illegal immigrate where my safety is concerned. (As compared to the threat posed by your average American)
Completely and totally misses the point. I don’t care if 99% are great people, we shouldn’t let them in because the 1% that aren’t are way to many.
 
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Completely and totally misses the point. I don’t care if 99% are great people, we shouldn’t let them in because the 1% that aren’t are way to many.
Then you're against legal immigration if it produces the same percentage of bad people? (or if it produces more)

And no, it doesn't miss the point. Because it was my post and I was making a specific point.
 
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100% of Illegal immigrants have committed a crime by entering the country. Just because we refuse to prosecute them 100% of them are still guilty of a crime.
That's 100% incorrect. Deportations are handled through immigration court, while criminal proceedings (a crime) are handled in a completely different court.
 
There’s a vetting process for those coming through legal channels… while it might not be 100% it’s still better than no vetting at all as we have with undocumented people.

Wanting to keep undocumented people out, and wanting people to go through the process whether that’s immigration or asylum isn’t a bad thing.

I don’t care if they’re as white as the driven snow from Finland… if they want to come here, go through the process.

Yeah it sucks, there’s vetting and probably a wait list and still no guarantee you get accepted… but legal immigrants are some of our nation’s best and brightest people, and I don’t want to discourage them from coming or disparage them in any way.
I know you're not very smart when you claim you want them to claim asylum. What do you think the Venezuelans applied for? I doubt you've every lived anywhere other than Iowa.
 
Here’s the thing - a very large chunk of illegal immigrants are considered “undocumented”. As in, they entered legally - work or student visas for example; but they’re now in the illegal branch because the visas expired; and far more often than not they’re attempting to have those renewed but the visas expired while they’re waiting in the backlogged system.

For people that crossed illegally, and made zero attempts to legalize their status at Al, I’m totally okay with having them deported when caught.
Rationalizing illegal. What would happen to any US citizen if they overstayed their visa in another country?
 
What flaw? The law says what it says. Obey it, or leave.
Flaws like it taking YEARS to get visas renewed for one.
Rationalizing illegal. What would happen to any US citizen if they overstayed their visa in another country?
Depends on the country and its laws don’t it?

If someone had started the process of renewing their visa, but due to delays in the process on our end, would it not be reasonable to allow them temporary extensions until the process is completed?
 
That’s bass-ackwards.

If you compare the immigration numbers as a percentage vs the US population as a whole it’s not nearly as big a difference as you’d think. Raw numbers are more now because the world population has exploded to the previous periods of mass immigration in our history.

Why? Democrats pushed a bipartisan immigration bill last year that gop opposed overwhelmingly, yet you’re not painting them as pro-illegal immigration are you?
Whatever dude…you like to argue for the sake of argument.
 
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Did you read it? What am I missing?

The most common guidelines under which non-U.S. citizens were sentenced include: Immigration (72.3%); Drug Trafficking (16.7%); Fraud (3.3%); Money Laundering (1.9%); and Firearms (1.6%).[2]

And even then, this is federal sentencing. . . which makes up a small portion of all criminal activity that may receive sentencing.

I compared citizens v. non-citizen federal defendants sentenced in 2023. I did not count immigration offenses. Percentage wise non-citizens federal offenders compared to their estimated number (15 million) were over 3.5 times to commit federal crimes than citizens compared against their population (346 millions).

It is an apples to apples comparison of hard numbers from the US Sentencing Commission.

Once removing immigration offenses, why would our more "law abiding" non-citizens commit federal offenses at 350% more than citizens and yet commit state offenses at a lower rate than citizens? If true, as stated in OP, that's one hell of a statistical anomoly.
 
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Flaws like it taking YEARS to get visas renewed for one.

Depends on the country and its laws don’t it?

If someone had started the process of renewing their visa, but due to delays in the process on our end, would it not be reasonable to allow them temporary extensions until the process is completed?
Why is that a flaw? US citizenship should be difficult to attain for non citizens.
 
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I know you're not very smart when you claim you want them to claim asylum. What do you think the Venezuelans applied for? I doubt you've every lived anywhere other than Iowa.
I don’t live in Iowa, and I’ve been all over the world to places little libtard bitches on this board couldn’t find on a map, let alone would step foot in.

As far as who has applied for asylum… nobody on the right I know takes issue with real asylum seekers who honor the process. Don’t cross a river get caught here and say I’m seeking asylum… that’s not how the process was ever intended to work
 
I compared citizens v. non-citizen federal defendants sentenced in 2023. I did not count immigration offenses. Percentage wise non-citizens federal offenders compared to their estimated number (15 million) were over 3.5 times to commit federal crimes than citizens compared against their population (346 millions).

It is an apples to apples comparison of hard numbers from the US Sentencing Commission.

Once removing immigration offenses, why would our more "law abiding" non-citizens commit federal offenses at 350% more than citizens and yet commit state offenses at a lower rate than citizens? If true, as stated in OP, that's one hell of a statistical anomoly.
I thought the italicized text was just copied from the link so I went and read the link but not all of your text.

I see the point you're making. But that doesn't settle much at all. It's only talking about federal crime.

Of course this begs the question of why a crime might be prosecuted at the federal level or not. Perhaps if you're illegal the crime you commit ends up being much more likely to involve federal law. (and you end up in this statistic)

Also: the stats provided in your link regarding federal crime seem to omit many sorts of crime (potentially) that we all care about. So perhaps illegal immigrants are more likely to commit certain crimes than US citizens, but much less so for other crimes. (say, drug trafficking vs rape or murder)

The larger point at hand: we're talking about violent and or significant crime overall, not just what is prosecuted at the federal level.
 
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This isn't about it being hard or easy - for many, it's about a process taking years that should take weeks or months at most.
The process can’t start at all if people who want to come here attempt to circumvent the system.

We might not have the best immigration policy and system, but it’s hard to say when MILLIONS have ignored it.
 
The process can’t start at all if people who want to come here attempt to circumvent the system.

We might not have the best immigration policy and system, but it’s hard to say when MILLIONS have ignored it.
Not defending people who try to circumvent it entirely, I’m talking solely about the millions of people who have played by the rules, but for whom our system has failed.

Frankly, it should be a simple, non controversial fix to hire more judges, resources to deal with the backlog so that the number of people currently in undocumented status falls dramatically and we can have a much clearer picture of the volume of people who are truly here illegally and law enforcement agencies can better focus their attention.
 
This isn't about it being hard or easy - for many, it's about a process taking years that should take weeks or months at most.

It takes what it takes, and the process is what America decides it to be, not what potential immigrants might want,.. This isn't about them.
 
It takes what it takes, and the process is what America decides it to be, not what potential immigrants might want,.. This isn't about them.
You can’t simultaneously complain about the broken immigration system with millions of people involved and then state the process is what America wants it to be. Heck, you can argue that a large percentage of trumps political success is directly attributable to many Americans who ARENT satisfied with the status quo, and want action.

Complaining about the immigration system and stating this isn’t about immigrants is quite the choice.
 
Not defending people who try to circumvent it entirely, I’m talking solely about the millions of people who have played by the rules, but for whom our system has failed.

Frankly, it should be a simple, non controversial fix to hire more judges, resources to deal with the backlog so that the number of people currently in undocumented status falls dramatically and we can have a much clearer picture of the volume of people who are truly here illegally and law enforcement agencies can better focus their attention.
I'm here for that as long as we aren't granting amnesty to those who haven't followed the proper procedures to this point. I agree cleaning up the backlog of people who have filed, and are trying to do the right thing is a good thing.
 
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You can’t simultaneously complain about the broken immigration system with millions of people involved and then state the process is what America wants it to be. Heck, you can argue that a large percentage of trumps political success is directly attributable to many Americans who ARENT satisfied with the status quo, and want action.

Complaining about the immigration system and stating this isn’t about immigrants is quite the choice.

My primary complaint relates to our inability to enforce current immigration law,.. Let's enforce the laws we have, then we can decide what's actually broken and what isn't,.. In the mean time potential immigrants need to follow the law as it exists.
 
My primary complaint relates to our inability to enforce current immigration law,.. Let's enforce the laws we have, then we can decide what's actually broken and what isn't,.. In the mean time potential immigrants need to follow the law as it exists.
A not insignificant part of the problem is insufficient resources to deal with what’s already here.

To say nothing of the border itself.
 
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Secondary issue,.. and besides, Biden should have thought abut that when he essentially committed those resources by allowing the border to stand wide open...
Agree to disagree that it’s a secondary issue. Undocumented immigrants make up a far larger % of illegal immigrants than people think.
 
I would like to see anyone on this board who thinks our immigration laws are so unfair try and sneak into OR even immigrate to one of these counties. Now, I agree, it should not take upwards of 10 years to become a citizen...but that is TOTALLY beside the point when it comes to someone who is here illegally.

Here’s a list of 15 countries that have stricter immigration laws than the United States:
  1. Japan
  2. Saudi Arabia
  3. Australia
  4. Switzerland
  5. United Arab Emirates
  6. Singapore
  7. New Zealand
  8. Germany (especially for non-EU citizens)
  9. Norway
  10. South Korea
  11. Canada (though it has a points system, there are restrictions for certain categories)
  12. Denmark
  13. Finland
  14. Austria
  15. Belgium
These countries have stringent requirements, quotas, or processes that make immigration more challenging compared to the U.S.
 
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