http://news.theopenmat.com/college-wrestling-news/top-5-teams-ncaa-history/58519
They seem to be doing a great job lately.
They seem to be doing a great job lately.
Interesting read during this slow time.
- Thread starter minnhawkeye
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Agreed. It came across to me as the writer not wanting to have only OSU and Iowa teams in the top 5. Fact is, those two teams have won over 60% of the championships, and in the most impressive fashion. The Minnesota team from 2001 sticks out like a sore thumb. Not only for it's lack of champions and finalists, but also for their low final score compared to other great teams. People being contrarian I guess. Impressive feat to AA at all ten weights, but not sure they'd make my top 10.
It depends on how you define a "team". 5 or so superstars or all 10 studs. Even for how great PSU has been under Sanderson, there has pretty much been a couple holes each year. A team that puts all 10 on the podium(only time it has ever happened) is the most complete team there has ever been. They may very well have lost to teams that weren't listed, but I see nothing wrong with where they were placed.
Also, it's not like they had a surprise great tournament either. All 10 guys were seeded.
Also, it's not like they had a surprise great tournament either. All 10 guys were seeded.
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The best team each year is the one that scores the most points at nationals. Period. There is no other definition in the sport. The best five teams all time are the ones who scored the most points at nationals given the point scoring system in place at that time.
I also think you and I have different definitions of studs. To me, a stud gets into the top 4. Minny had a couple that year and that's it. Very good wrestlers, but few studs. I think Cael and Tom believe the same way when it comes to what constitutes a great team and the definition of a stud.
The article was click bait to get us into an argument over what makes the best team. Until the rules change, the answer is 5-6 studs going deep at nationals and another 4-5 guys that qualify and sometimes place and provide valuable points to win the title.
This was also the first year of the increased placement scoring.
83 Iowa v. 01 Minnesota in a dual setting
Riley v. Vega: Vega Dec (3-0 MN)
Davis v. Lawrence: Davis at least a tech (5-3 IA)
Kerber v. Erikson: Kerber Dec (8-3 IA)
Kistler v. Lawerence: Lawrence Dec (8-6 IA)
Heffernan v Becker: Heffernan Dec (11-6 IA)
Zalesky v. Pike: Zalesky at least a major (15-6 IA)
Chiaperrelli v. Volkman: Rico Dec (18-6 IA)
Goldman v. Hahn: Goldman Dec (21-6 IA)
Banach v. Elzen: Maj Banach (24-6 IA)
Banach v. Lowney: Maj Banach (28-6 IA)
I gave MN the toss-up at 25 and Iowa the toss up at 57. Davis, Zalesky and E. Banach could all pin. I suppose Goldman-Hahn could have went the other way, but I would not bet on that.
I might put 83 Iowa #1 overall.
Can't argue with that. 10 AA's is great but than I might even put PSU 2012 over them
To assist your memory here:
143 points at nationals.
three firsts:Molinaro, Taylor, Ruth
two seconds: Megaludis, Wright
a third: D Alton
The non AAs we know: McIntosh, Brown
13-1 with a 23-14 loss to Minny and a 22-12 win over Iowa. Minny was kinda stacked that year too.
Weight
PSU Wrestler Opponent Result
125 Nico Megaludis #2 Zach Sanders L 6-2
133 Derek Reber #7 David Thorn LMD 14-5
141 Sam Sherlock #10 Nick Dardanes LMD 19-6
149 Frank Molinaro #5 Dylan Ness W 16-10
157 Dylan Alton #9 Jake Deitchler L 9-4
165 David Taylor #8 Cody Yohn WTF 16-1 (4:29)
174 Ed Ruth Eric Ortiz WBF 2:28
184 Quentin Wright #6 Kevin Steinhaus L 6-1
197 Morgan McIntosh #2 Sonny Yohn L 4-3
285 Cameron Wade #3 Tony Nelson L 5-0
Weight
PSU Wrestler Opponent Result
125 Nico Megaludis #2 Matt McDonough L 3-1 sv
133 Frank Martellotti #3 Tony Ramos LBF 4:20
141 Bryan Pearsall #3 Montell Marion L 7-3
149 Frank Molinaro Mike Kelly W 11-5
157 Dylan Alton Nick Moore W 5-3
165 David Taylor #6 Mike Evans W 9-4
174 Ed Ruth #9 Ethan Lofthouse WMD 10-1
184 Quentin Wright Vinnie Wagner W 8-2
197 Morgan McIntosh Grant Gambrall W 5-3 sv
285 Cameron Wade Blake Raising W 4-0
I've heard people say that. I think it may be in that Season on the Mat book. I felt confident Iowa would win that tourney going into it. Granted, I did not expect them to set a new points record. Everything went their way.
I've always seen 2012 PSU as comparable to 1987 ISU. Five or six really elite guys and a few holes. Both were great teams. Maybe not top five in the past 40 years, but definitely in the conversation. I think I could name 20 teams better than 2001 Minnesota.
That streak of consecutive matches won by a team was also really impressive.
As long as I live I will never forget the overtime match where Mena looked at Gable for advice and Gable just threw up his arms and indicated "Your decision"!
If ten AA's is so non-impressive and easy to do, then how come none of your great teams have been able to do it? Hell, Gable dreamed of ten titlists and he couldn't even get ten AA's. You continue to pretend that winning NCAA's with 4 or 5 studs is what the sport is all about, while the rest of the world flocks to the big duals and argues about who has the best dual team in the country.
10 AAs is very impressive in an era of limited scholarships. It takes years of planning and some unexpected improvements in the room. 2012 Minny might have had a shot at it but if I remember correctly they had a very bad opening day at nationals.
This might be the only time I agree with Jammies. 10 AA's has only been accomplished once and that accomplishment deserves its place in the top 5.
What is going to be harder to replicate? 10 AAs or 9 BIg Ten Champs?
Gable came closer to 10 titlests than Minnesota ever did. Not even close.
OSU Iowa
118 T. Moore #2 Whitmer #6
125 Guerrero #2 Mena #4
134 Schmidt #2 Ironside #1
142 S. Reyna #4 Gilliss (unseeded)
150 Arias #10 McIlravy #1
158 H. Moore #5 J. Williams #1
167 M. Branch #1 Mike Uker #11
177 Mark Smith #1 Tony Ersland (unseeded)
190 (nobody) Lee Fullhart #5
HWT Ben Lee (unseeded) Wes Hand (unseeded)
OSU was a pretty solid favorite. I was not confident heading up to Cedar Falls. Gable had hip replacement surgery and wasn't around much. McIlravy had hardly wrestled due to concussions. Whitmer couldn't get out from bottom if his life depended on it. Nobody else was lighting the woods on fire. But I guess nobody knew what Gable had under his hat - it was awesome.118 T. Moore #2 Whitmer #6
125 Guerrero #2 Mena #4
134 Schmidt #2 Ironside #1
142 S. Reyna #4 Gilliss (unseeded)
150 Arias #10 McIlravy #1
158 H. Moore #5 J. Williams #1
167 M. Branch #1 Mike Uker #11
177 Mark Smith #1 Tony Ersland (unseeded)
190 (nobody) Lee Fullhart #5
HWT Ben Lee (unseeded) Wes Hand (unseeded)
Iowa won 22 or 23 straight matches from the second round to the semis I believe.
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No one does this. The rest of the world outside of Iowa and to a lesser extent PSU doesn't flock to duals. And no one argues over who's the best dual team. Couldn't have missed to mark more if you tried.
Full respect to the Gophs for 10 AAs.
I was never arguing against the 1983 Iowa team. I actually agree that there is an argument to put them ahead of all 5 teams on this list.
I just think what Minnesota did that year definitely puts them in the top 5 conversation. Is that really based solely on 1 performance in March? Not only did Minnesota put all 10 on the podium, all 10 were seeded. That means all 10 guys were consistently top 10 at their weight for the SEASON. I find that very hard to ignore. They didn't even have a great tournament as a whole, they basically wrestled as expected. I know it's a polarizing topic on here, but to me, that defines a team more than one that has one great tournament at the end of the season considerably overperforming expectations(that wasn't the case in 1983[7 of the 9 AA's were seeded top4 and all finished top 4 and the other two were 6(took 5th) and 8(took 5th) respectively]).
I just think what Minnesota did that year definitely puts them in the top 5 conversation. Is that really based solely on 1 performance in March? Not only did Minnesota put all 10 on the podium, all 10 were seeded. That means all 10 guys were consistently top 10 at their weight for the SEASON. I find that very hard to ignore. They didn't even have a great tournament as a whole, they basically wrestled as expected. I know it's a polarizing topic on here, but to me, that defines a team more than one that has one great tournament at the end of the season considerably overperforming expectations(that wasn't the case in 1983[7 of the 9 AA's were seeded top4 and all finished top 4 and the other two were 6(took 5th) and 8(took 5th) respectively]).
Here's the money question? Who wins the dual meet, 83 Iowa or 01 Minny? Who wins nationals, 83 Iowa or 01 Minny? The answer is the same. That said, is 10 AA's without a finalist better than 9 AA's with several finalists/champions? I'd say no way.
Not only Iowa's 1983 team, going by placement, Penn State's 2012 Team would of beat Minnesota's 01 team in a dual 6-4 and beat them at NCAAs. Hardly top 5 all-time, maybe not even top 10. Some people seem to fall in love with the idea of 10 AAs however a few of those AAs were much closer to RD of 12 in ability then the elite guys in the top 3. There's a reason why the Olympics/World Championships give out only 3 placement medals. Let's face it, 1983 Iowa would of destroyed 01 Minnesota.
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Not likely:
Mega (2nd) over Vega (5,5,3rd)
B Lawrence (8th) over Martelotti (dnp)
Erickson (8th,7) over DNQ
Molinaro (1st) over J Lawrence (6, 6th,1,2) ?
Becker (6,4th,1,4) over Alton (3rd)
Taylor (1st) over Pike (7,4th)
Ruth (1st) over Volkmann (4th,3,4)
Hahn (5th,5,1,1) over Q (2nd) ?
Elzen (3rd,3) over Smack (dnp)
Lowney (3rd,5,5) over Wade (dnp)
So you have a five man team with 3 dnp's and a dnq, which offsets the expected Taylor/Ruth bonus points.
So you just make things up and think it means something? Surprised PSU won any matches at all. Look, there is only one objective criteria we can go by here, NCAA placements for the particular years in question. As such, Penn State wins 6-4, period, end of discussion, thanks for playing.
Mega (2nd) over Vega (3rd)
B Lawrence (8th) over Martelotti (dnp)
Erickson (8th) over DNQ
Molinaro (1st) over J Lawrence (6th)
Alton (3rd) over Becker (4th)
Taylor (1st) over Pike (4th)
Ruth (1st) over Volkmann (4th)
Q (2nd) over Hahn (5th)
Elzen (3rd) over Smack (dnp)
Lowney (3rd) over Wade (dnp)
Mega (2nd) over Vega (3rd)
B Lawrence (8th) over Martelotti (dnp)
Erickson (8th) over DNQ
Molinaro (1st) over J Lawrence (6th)
Alton (3rd) over Becker (4th)
Taylor (1st) over Pike (4th)
Ruth (1st) over Volkmann (4th)
Q (2nd) over Hahn (5th)
Elzen (3rd) over Smack (dnp)
Lowney (3rd) over Wade (dnp)
Why do you have MN wrestlers body of work vs. only PSU results from 2012? 2012 Q beats 2001 Hahn handly.
Mega Dec 3-0 PSU
Lawerence Dec 3-3
Erikson possible Maj MN 7-3(I think Ballweg majored Piersall)
Molinaro Dec MN 7-6
Becker Dec 10-6 MN
Taylor Tech 11-10 PSU
Ruth at least a Maj 15-10 PSU
Q Dec 18-10 PSU
Elzen Dec 18-13 PSU
Lowney Dec 18-16 PSU
I was 10 years old and went to the 84 ncaa championships in NJ. Iowa was so impressive the finals were like an all star meet (iowa vs. Ncaa) iowa only won 1 championship, but that team in my minds eye was better then 01 Minny.
Damian Hahn lost his 1st match for 01 Minny wouldn't have had a chance to AA in the early 80's
Damian Hahn lost his 1st match for 01 Minny wouldn't have had a chance to AA in the early 80's
He was selectively trying to use career placements to distort things, ignoring the fact Q also had better career numbers and McIntosh's career numbers would be better then Elzen also. Funny thing is it would still work out to 6-4 PSU after swapping Alton and Becker.
Have to keep bonus points in mind and this is the reason why I think PSU '12 is the better team. Ed and DT were special and Q, Frank, and Nico weren't far behind. That's 9 combined total titles by the time they were done.
We need to understand the reality that Jammie and other Gopher fans are experiencing at this time. Their program is in shambles, they have no idea what the roster will look like by next fall, they have no idea what the coaching staff will be, and they are going to have a very difficult time convincing any high level recruits to join the dumpster fire that is Minnesota wrestling.
With that in mind, let's throw em a few crumbs and admit the 2001 team was pretty decent.
With that in mind, let's throw em a few crumbs and admit the 2001 team was pretty decent.
The fact they accomplished something no one else ever has deserves mention when ranking all time teams and it's all each persons opinion anyway.Give me a choice of iowa getting 10 all americans sometime or having a 4 time national champ I would pick the 4 timer.
Does anyone know which team had the most current or future champs on the roster at any one time? When Iowa was rolling they had guys that struggled to find the lineup and eventually became national champs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a team from 82-86 that had 8 or 9 guys that eventually won titles.
Disagree. Wrestling "teams" compete in head-to-head dual meets all year. Like almost all team events, the best team is the one that can win in a head-to-head competition.
The "champion" is decided at Nationals. Frequently the best team winds up as champion, frequently they do not. Just like I basketball.
I'm pretty sure that's not the criteria used by the author of the article who cited tournament credentials.
I understand your point of view, but my point was that we have a criteria and definition for best team, and it isn't dual meet record or head-to-head competition.
I appreciate that you get what I'm saying. What I also mean is that the criteria is used to decide the champion, which doesn't necessarily mean the best team.
Sure there is, if you want to ignore all relevant factors. Such as Mega had 8 losses his freshman year, but ignore that and pretend that a hot tourney run makes up for it. Are you also going to pretend that Mega would beat Abas who was the champ in Vega's field? DA had 6 losses that year. But again, a single 3rd place finish in his career puts him ahead of a 4x AA and titlist?
You can't make relevant comparisons if you are going to ignore the fields they wrestled against.
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