Intermat top50

[el dub]

Not Field Hockey though.

Of course not. Iowans have always been out standing in the field.

 

[24 so far]

Of course not. Iowans have always been out standing in the field.

No skates required, that's the beauty of it!

(I actually watched a tiny portion of the Big Ten Field Hockey Championship when flipping to see what might be on BTN a few days back. Weird game. Those girls must have some serious backaches bending over all the time laying their stick on the ground to slap that damn ball around - not sure of the rules or why that do that so often, but just seems weird to an outsider).

 

[MSU158]

False. Spencer is clearly the superior folkstyle wrestler and his attitude would contribute far more to the team.

"Clearly"??? I am a huge fan and wouldn't argue against putting Spencer over Gable, but "clearly"? Lee does have 5 losses and 1 of those is by FALL. You simply can't ignore that.

Now, when the lights shine brightest, Lee has shown another gear where he runs over everyone at NCAA's. But, he has still shown several moments of substantial vulnerability. Meanwhile, Gable only lost to the NCAA Champ as a True Freshman and has been undefeated and very dominant since. Regardless of only considering Folkstyle, you can't ignore that Parris, Cass and Kerkvliet have all won age level World Titles and he has DOMINATED all of them.

Now, as far as character goes, I agree that Lee has been damn near perfect. While Steveson screwed up early on, he at least appeared to learn from that stupidity and seems to have carried himself very well since.

With that said, maybe his few vulnerabilities only stemmed from his injuries. He may very well be undefeated without them. However, they are a part of the sport and you can't just ignore them when doing a ranking like this...

 

[GoHawks1996]

"Clearly"??? I am a huge fan and wouldn't argue against putting Spencer over Gable, but "clearly"? Lee does have 5 losses and 1 of those is by FALL. You simply can't ignore that.

Now, when the lights shine brightest, Lee has shown another gear where he runs over everyone at NCAA's. But, he has still shown several moments of substantial vulnerability. Meanwhile, Gable only lost to the NCAA Champ as a True Freshman and has been undefeated and very dominant since. Regardless of only considering Folkstyle, you can't ignore that Parris, Cass and Kerkvliet have all won age level World Titles and he has DOMINATED all of them.

Now, as far as character goes, I agree that Lee has been damn near perfect. While Steveson screwed up early on, he at least appeared to learn from that stupidity and seems to have carried himself very well since.

With that said, maybe his few vulnerabilities only stemmed from his injuries. He may very well be undefeated without them. However, they are a part of the sport and you can't just ignore them when doing a ranking like this...

I mean the guy had something like mono that caused him to completely gas after like a minute and a half, plus a torn acl...

I mean if his substantial vulnerability is that he wrestles worse when he's incredibly sick and on one knee then I guess his opponents better start licking his water bottles and taking notes from Tanya Harding.. that way they'll only get majored.

 

[24 so far]

"Clearly"??? I am a huge fan and wouldn't argue against putting Spencer over Gable, but "clearly"? Lee does have 5 losses and 1 of those is by FALL. You simply can't ignore that.

Now, when the lights shine brightest, Lee has shown another gear where he runs over everyone at NCAA's. But, he has still shown several moments of substantial vulnerability. Meanwhile, Gable only lost to the NCAA Champ as a True Freshman and has been undefeated and very dominant since. Regardless of only considering Folkstyle, you can't ignore that Parris, Cass and Kerkvliet have all won age level World Titles and he has DOMINATED all of them.

Now, as far as character goes, I agree that Lee has been damn near perfect. While Steveson screwed up early on, he at least appeared to learn from that stupidity and seems to have carried himself very well since.

With that said, maybe his few vulnerabilities only stemmed from his injuries. He may very well be undefeated without them. However, they are a part of the sport and you can't just ignore them when doing a ranking like this...

I don't disagree necessarily, and frankly don't put much stock into this ranking thing, but to play Devil's Advocate how many NCAA Champions has Gable defeated and how many has Spencer defeated? That is part of the sport and you just can't ignore them when doing a ranking like this..........they are all College Wrestler's they are ranking after all, and they wrestle Folkstyle. (I think it could be said that Spencer dominated Tomasello, and Suriano as well).

 

[MSU158]

I don't disagree necessarily, and frankly don't put much stock into this ranking thing, but to play Devil's Advocate how many NCAA Champions has Gable defeated and how many has Spencer defeated? That is part of the sport and you just can't ignore them when doing a ranking like this..........they are all College Wrestler's they are ranking after all, and they wrestle Folkstyle. (I think it could be said that Spencer dominated Tomasello, and Suriano as well).

When you wrestle 285 that is a lot harder to do. Rarely do 197lb NCAA Champs bump up(Snyder was a unicorn) and Gable has been the #1 guy since Cassar(I don't think Cassar would have come close to beating Steveson in subsequent years) didn't come back from injuries. That is why I pointed out how talented 285 is by showing what the guys did in Freestyle.

To be clear, I do think a fully healthy Spencer Lee is a better folkstyle wrestler. However, he has barely, if ever, been fully healthy wrestling at Iowa. So, you have to simply look at his results that have counted so far. As such, to me, you just can't ignore his losses.

 

[el dub]

I don't disagree necessarily, and frankly don't put much stock into this ranking thing, but to play Devil's Advocate how many NCAA Champions has Gable defeated and how many has Spencer defeated? That is part of the sport and you just can't ignore them when doing a ranking like this..........they are all College Wrestler's they are ranking after all, and they wrestle Folkstyle. (I think it could be said that Spencer dominated Tomasello, and Suriano as well).

And how many NCAA titles do each have?

 

[MSU158]

And how many NCAA titles do each have?

I like these kinds of arguments. They have substance and are why I said I would have no issue with Lee being put over Steveson. My real contention was with using the word "clearly". There simply is NO DATA that would put Lee distinctly ahead of Steveson.

To me, "clearly" at the very least requires a better career win-loss record. When you don't have that, it is considerably harder to prove your case.

 

[Aleric1]

I like these kinds of arguments. They have substance and are why I said I would have no issue with Lee being put over Steveson. My real contention was with using the word "clearly". There simply is NO DATA that would put Lee distinctly ahead of Steveson.

To me, "clearly" at the very least requires a better career win-loss record. When you don't have that, it is considerably harder to prove your case.

I think an argument could be made that 3 is clearly and distinctly better than 1.

 

[24 so far]

I like these kinds of arguments. They have substance and are why I said I would have no issue with Lee being put over Steveson. My real contention was with using the word "clearly". There simply is NO DATA that would put Lee distinctly ahead of Steveson.

To me, "clearly" at the very least requires a better career win-loss record. When you don't have that, it is considerably harder to prove your case.

Agreed on all points. I'm also in the camp that will believe it when I see it in regards to Spencer's 4th Title. You have to be great and have a little bit of lucky to pull it off.

I wanted it bad for Lincoln Mac back in the day, and partly because I was there in person to see that hellish comeback for his first Title against Abas (damn near passed out going bonkers). Not sure I'll ever see anything like it again. Big downer when he got beat for sure.

 

[MSU158]

I think an argument could be made that 3 is clearly and distinctly better than 1.

Another solid argument, that is good by itself. The problem is, it IS by itself. Negating an entire season to just count 1 tournament per year does College wrestling and even the wrestlers themselves a disservice. That is why what Cael did is so unique and undeniably special. He wrestled 40+ matches per season, never lost and won 4 NCAA Titles.

But, sticking with this theme, if both Steveson and Lee redshirted that 1st season and then wrestled the next 4, Steveson almost certainly wins 4 and most likely goes undefeated, while Lee had his worst stretch of wrestling early in his 2nd season...

 

[MSU158]

Both are complete animals and BOTH are legitimately deserving of being the best DI wrestler. Any which way you look at it these profiles are very impressive:

WrestleStat | Gable Steveson (Minnesota) Profile

www.wrestlestat.com

WrestleStat | Spencer Lee (Iowa) Profile

www.wrestlestat.com

 

[IAChief32]

Agreed on all points. I'm also in the camp that will believe it when I see it in regards to Spencer's 4th Title. You have to be great and have a little bit of lucky to pull it off.

If you think about it, Lee has had some serious bad luck. Dominates his first NCAAs coming off an ACL tear. Has some type of sickness his soph year, still won it…tears an ACL at the end that nobody knew about. Comes into 2020 season dominating in both free and folk. Looks to be in best form ever, Covid strikes and NCAAs canceled at the last minute. Dominates 2021 season, tears other ACL at B1G, still wins the title. So yea, I am waiting for some of that luck you are talking about.

I don’t care if they have Lee on a pitch count. The staff and Lee have earned the right to do whatever they need to do to get him to the NCAAs healthy and so he can wrestle at world trials after.

 

[Aleric1]

Another solid argument, that is good by itself. The problem is, it IS by itself. Negating an entire season to just count 1 tournament per year does College wrestling and even the wrestlers themselves a disservice. That is why what Cael did is so unique and undeniably special. He wrestled 40+ matches per season, never lost and won 4 NCAA Titles.

But, sticking with this theme, if both Steveson and Lee redshirted that 1st season and then wrestled the next 4, Steveson almost certainly wins 4 and most likely goes undefeated, while Lee had his worst stretch of wrestling early in his 2nd season...

Steveson did redshirt his first year, did not go undefeated thereafter and did not win a championship in his second year unless WrestleStat is wrong.

I do agree that entire seasons shouldn’t be discounted and also agree that Steveson is really good.

 

[sstark46]

Steveson did redshirt his first year, did not go undefeated thereafter and did not win a championship in his second year unless WrestleStat is wrong.

I do agree that entire seasons shouldn’t be discounted and also agree that Steveson is really good.

Steveson wrestled as a true freshman. What you see in Wrestlestat is him wrestling an early season open when he was in high school

 

[MSU158]

Steveson did redshirt his first year, did not go undefeated thereafter and did not win a championship in his second year unless WrestleStat is wrong.

I do agree that entire seasons shouldn’t be discounted and also agree that Steveson is really good.

He did NOT redshirt. What wrestlestat shows is him winning a tournament while STILL in High School that first season...He won his last Minnesota State Championship in March of 2018. He wrestled the 2018-2019 season as an 18 year old True Freshman(He was born May 1st, 2000).

 

[24 so far]

If you think about it, Lee has had some serious bad luck. Dominates his first NCAAs coming off an ACL tear. Has some type of sickness his soph year, still won it…tears an ACL at the end that nobody knew about. Comes into 2020 season dominating in both free and folk. Looks to be in best form ever, Covid strikes and NCAAs canceled at the last minute. Dominates 2021 season, tears other ACL at B1G, still wins the title. So yea, I am waiting for some of that luck you are talking about.

I don’t care if they have Lee on a pitch count. The staff and Lee have earned the right to do whatever they need to do to get him to the NCAAs healthy and so he can wrestle at world trials after.

Yeah, he's had plenty of bad luck, no question about it. And in his case, he's been considerably ahead of the field at NCAA's, where he didn't need a last 2nd takedown or what have you.

I can't imagine wrestling with a broken elbow was much fun for Randy Lewis back in the day either! That had to suck big time. 🙂

 

[Aleric1]

Steveson wrestled as a true freshman. What you see in Wrestlestat is him wrestling an early season open when he was in high school

He did NOT redshirt. What wrestlestat shows is him winning a tournament while STILL in High School that first season...He won his last Minnesota State Championship in March of 2018. He wrestled the 2018-2019 season as an 18 year old True Freshman(He was born May 1st, 2000).

Thanks for the clarification!