Is Fran the man?

[DanL53]

I like Fran and think he is a solid x and o guy, but like all coaches and people, he is not perfect. I anticipate taking some arrows over this post, but so be it. I really question loading up on all these Iowa kids. Is Bohannon really the best we can do to upgrade our PG talent? Do any of these recruits have offers outside of Valley and Horizon League schools? I know Cook has A-Z offers, but other than him?

You can research this stuff.

http://sports.yahoo.com/iowa/basketball/recruiting/player-Ryan-Kriener-166716

There is an offer there from Minnesota, and I'm not entirely sure that Greg Marshall at Wichita State is a bad talent evaluator, Mid-Major league or not...he could be coaching at just about any opening that comes up anytime he wants.

Bohannon did not enjoy as many offers. As early as Pemsl committed there should be no surprise at his limited offers but take a look at the schools that were looking at him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Cordell-Pemsl-151839

Regarding loading up on Iowa kids. Iowa has the second lowest population of all the Big Ten schools. Of course it will struggle if we recruit only Iowa. But we don't. And I'm pretty certain you don't want us to ignore top 100 or better talent like Fran's kids or Wieskamp.

I'm not going to shoot arrows at you though. Just trading thoughts.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

Last year the Big was the best conference in the nation, so your argument is unfounded. Look at the Big when Alford succeeded and it was far weaker.

Don't get the Fran hate. The progress he has made since Lick left has been consistent and amazing. We lost a tough game, but I've no doubt Fran is the Man and the future looks very bright over the next 4 years. Funny thing is, the same criticisms I'm reading here were said about Lute Olsen. We all know how that turned out for the HOF coach.

The B1G sucked last year. Wis was an elite team. That was the only really good team in the conference. OSU had one of their worst teams in years. Sparty didn't have one of their better teams (it's a credit to Izzo they went as far in the tournament as they did). Worst Mich team in probably the last 20 years.

Look at the seedings of B1G teams. Wis was the only team to get a really high seed. It was the weakest season for the conference in at least the last decade. The bottom half of the conference absolutely blew.

How in the world can you say the B1G was weaker when Alford was coaching? Come on. There was no crappy Neb or Rutgers in the conference. Please list for me the seasons Mich, OSU, MSU were as weak as they were last season. Ill actually had good teams back then and didn't stink like donkey doo like they do now (especially last year).

You aren't thinking this through. The reason it's not as strong now is the best players leave early for the NBA. Lots of 1 and done guys. You think OSU wouldn't be a lot tougher this year if D'Angelo Russell came back this year. How about Wis if Dekker didn't go pro? It used to be the coaches would maybe shy away from the stud player who might be a one an done, but guys like Matta and Izzo realize if you want to compete against the Dukes and Ky for a national championship you have to recruit those guys. There were some guys who left early for the NBA during Alford's time at Iowa, but it wasn't near as prevalent. Guys went right from high school. Iowa doesn't have any NBA talent so they benefit from guys playing together for 4 years. They had a veteran team last year and they do this year, so that's a big advantage to them in today's college environment. Still, overall the talent level of the teams was awful last year.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

+1 Criticisms, complaints of fans being too optimistic (when in reality very few predicted 12-6 last year and many of the so called realists were expecting 8-10, 9-9...some so low as 6 wins. We've had the horrible collapse that spelled doom. We'd never replace our only scoring option, Marble. Woody can't play 30 mpg he'll foul out! We can't sign top 100 players outside the state of Iowa. The 2014 class was a total bust. Certainly Ellingson was a total bust! Woody is a total bust!

Each time a player has a bad game the "realists" pop up with tar and feathers. But a good game and the next thing is he should play more.

But before I make my point what are some more? Oh, our season other than the Marquette win is rather blah.

Anyone remember the comments of cutting loose Pemsl? How's he playing so far?

And I LOVE the one about the Big Ten being down last year.

And finally, this thing about Iowa losing so many close games? What was it, 18-36 or something like that? Five point spread or overtime? In all of last year and the first ten games this year the stat is 4 wins, 6 losses.

I must suggest that the poor end game coaching is severely exaggerated these last forty or so games. 4-6? Oh my! Meanwhile our overall record is 29-15 which means we've have 21 victories of six or more points and just nine losses! What this amounts to is much like the Woody myth. Supposedly he misses tons of chip shots, but a look at his stats and compared to other centers he is not all that bad. But...some bright Einstein pointed out a few of his misses and things got blown out of proportion. The losing too many close games story is rapidly becoming old news...but because for the first four years it was a problem, now every time it happens people think it happens all the time!

I gotta say, the day there are myths or strained beliefs that are positive thoughts? On here? Well, I just don't think it will happen. And it's no wonder coaches prefer their players stay away from message boards.

Gross generalizations which are really nothing more than dressed up strawmen. There are negative fans that make some stupid comments just like their are some sunny fans who make some stupid comments. We certainly wouldn't want to review you recruiting comments this past summer to see how insanely hyped they were. It was your version of the fab five recruiting class. LOL.

 

[hawkeyemark]

Interesting point has come up in this thread about recruiting Iowa kids. I applaud Fran's efforts on that front. The Iowa coach I think must continually reel in the most talented Iowa kids and Fran made that a point of emphasis coming in. Then you surround them with the best talent available to put together a cohesive, winning team and Fran has worked hard to establish himself in the Chicago market which I think you must also do in his position. I don't always like the mix of players he comes up with as in this year's class but on the whole I think he does the right things when it comes to recruiting. Game management becomes another story.

 

[icantfindausernamethatisntused]

I like Fran and think he is a solid x and o guy, but like all coaches and people, he is not perfect. I anticipate taking some arrows over this post, but so be it. I really question loading up on all these Iowa kids. Is Bohannon really the best we can do to upgrade our PG talent? Do any of these recruits have offers outside of Valley and Horizon League schools? I know Cook has A-Z offers, but other than him?

I have no idea how the 2016 class will turn out as I have not seen any of the commitments play. However, I don't think Fran can be criticized for only loading up on Iowa kids. The 2014 and 2015 classes included 9 total commitments, and zero of them came from Iowa.

The only scholarship "Iowa" kids on this team are Jok, Woodbury, and Gesell (included even though he's technically from Nebraska). Since Fran hasn't "settled" for Iowa players before the 2016 class, I doubt he would offer Pemsl, Bohannon, and Kriener if he didn't think they were the best available.

 

[HawkGem11]

Although last nights debacle was a definite nut-kick, I think the biggest question one must ask is can Fran identify what went wrong last night and fix it?

To me, if we continue down said road with the ball ALWAYS in MD's hands at the end of tight games, we will continue to see similar results.That said, I like MG and feel he offers us value, I just feel we have better options then MG holding the ball outside until 10 seconds or less on the shot/game clock.

Mike cannot create open/good shots for himself off of the dribble. I for one feel better off with the ball in the hands of AC or JU and even Dom (he needs more playing time).

At least AC and JU and even Dom can create a better shot opportunity then MG can. Put the ball in JU's hands, let him make a move and then kick it out for open shot one defenders sag in on him.

I strongly feel we are a better team then we had at this point last year (much more shooters) but I feel we NEED to better utilize our bench then we did last night as we were the much more deeper team.

Not ready to jump off the roof or ask for Fran's job. Just pissed off and anxious to see what, if anything, we are able to learn from last nights affair (did I mention I fricken hate ISU).

No he is not the man, he is the worst game coach i have ever seen...never wants to make changed in games at all

 

[PhantomFlyer]

Why do you believe Fran cannot get an elite point guard? Do you believe he just cannot recruit one, or do you believe he cannot develop one (or both)?
.

"Why do you believe Fran cannot get an elite point guard? Do you believe he just cannot recruit one, or do you believe he cannot develop one (or both)?

I'm not saying he can't get an elite PG, what I'm saying is he hasn't brought one in yet. Actually I'd settle for a better than avg PG. MG was highly ranked but one only has to watch him for a few minutes to realize he has avg quickness, and his shooting form is terrible. I don't want to hear about Ulis because I've heard Iowa was NOT his second choice, I believe MSU was.

Fran is in year 7 and he's yet to bring a single PG who was above avg. Why should I assume he's capable of doing it based on the track record? Even more concerning is how he hasn't recruited one since MG arrived. PG should have been the highest priority in the 2015 recruiting class. So, my belief is that Fran doesn't value highly the position. He doesn't think you need elite skills at that position in order to have success in his offense and defense. And honestly, you don't if the goal is only to make the NCAA tournament. If the goal is to win the B1G, or make a deep run in the tournament, you need better talent at PG.

Also, when I say I'd like an elite/above avg PG, I'm saying give me a PG who have the quickness to break down guys off the dribble, have good handles, and can defend quick point guards. I could live with a PG who wasn't even a good outside shooter. Iowa doesn't need to recruit someone like Ulis, they need to recruit someone who possesses some similar skills. Gesell is too slow. If he was a better outside shooter he might be able to better work around his avg quickness. He's really a 2G who's a terrible outside shooter or a backup PG on a really good team.

Can this coaching staff develop PG? I don't know but they seem to be able to develop talent at every other position, so can't figure out why PG would be any different. I don't think it's a development issue, it's a talent issue. MG doesn't possess the skills to ever become an elite PG. You can't teach quickness.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

It would probably be wisest to define what "Fran is the Man" means. If it means getting the program to the level of Alford or Davis, then I feel good about him getting the program to that level. If it means winning the conference, or taking a team to the final four (like Lute did), or doing something similar to what Ryan did with Wis, then, no, I don't think Fran is the man.

 

[Mohawkeye]

The B1G sucked last year. Wis was an elite team. That was the only really good team in the conference. OSU had one of their worst teams in years. Sparty didn't have one of their better teams (it's a credit to Izzo they went as far in the tournament as they did). Worst Mich team in probably the last 20 years.

Look at the seedings of B1G teams. Wis was the only team to get a really high seed. It was the weakest season for the conference in at least the last decade. The bottom half of the conference absolutely blew.

How in the world can you say the B1G was weaker when Alford was coaching? Come on. There was no crappy Neb or Rutgers in the conference. Please list for me the seasons Mich, OSU, MSU were as weak as they were last season. Ill actually had good teams back then and didn't stink like donkey doo like they do now (especially last year).

You aren't thinking this through. The reason it's not as strong now is the best players leave early for the NBA. Lots of 1 and done guys. You think OSU wouldn't be a lot tougher this year if D'Angelo Russell came back this year. How about Wis if Dekker didn't go pro? It used to be the coaches would maybe shy away from the stud player who might be a one an done, but guys like Matta and Izzo realize if you want to compete against the Dukes and Ky for a national championship you have to recruit those guys. There were some guys who left early for the NBA during Alford's time at Iowa, but it wasn't near as prevalent. Guys went right from high school. Iowa doesn't have any NBA talent so they benefit from guys playing together for 4 years. They had a veteran team last year and they do this year, so that's a big advantage to them in today's college environment. Still, overall the talent level of the teams was awful last year.

If you think the Big sucked last year with two final 4 teams and 7 bids overall, then you ought to compare it to 2006 when Alford's #3 seed lost in the first round and no Big team made it to the Sweet 16: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Tournament

 

[PhantomFlyer]

If you think the Big sucked last year with two final 4 teams and 7 bids overall, then you ought to compare it to 2006 when Alford's #3 seed lost in the first round and no Big team made it to the Sweet 16: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Tournament

Who cares? The NCAA tournament is about matchups and if a team gets hot at the right time. Sparty wasn't a final four caliber team but they got hot at the right time, and Izzo is probably the best coach in the country. MSU, under Izzo, has had a history of playing better in the tournament than talent on the team.

Again, list for me less talented/skilled OSU, Mich teams. Maryland and Sparty were decent teams, Wis was an elite team, and then you had a lot of mediocre teams and terrible teams. To be fair, college basketball overall was down last year. The level of talent is not as good because the best players leave early for the NBA. Still, this is an argument against Fran's coaching. He had a senior/junior dominated team, with tons of starting experience. This should have been a huge advantage to Iowa, even in games where they had inferior talent to their opponent.

This is also why Iowa should be able to become the next wis. This is the formula that Bo Ryan used to build his program. For the most part, he recruited players who stayed 4 years. They were very good college players, but not NBA good. This allowed Bo to always have guys on the court who knew the system inside and out. Fran could follow this model, however, Fran isn't near as good of a coach as Bo. Ryan's teams knew how to close out close games. Wis teams always play tough defense, and don't beat themselves. In other words, his teams reflected Bo, in that they were disciplined, sticklers for detail, and extremely tough mentally.

Fran's teams don't play great defense, they are mentally weak, very undisciplined when things get tough. Hence why they crumble like a stack of cards at the end of so many close games.

 

[Mohawkeye]

Who cares? The NCAA tournament is about matchups and if a team gets hot at the right time. Sparty wasn't a final four caliber team but they got hot at the right time, and Izzo is probably the best coach in the country. MSU, under Izzo, has had a history of playing better in the tournament than talent on the team.

Again, list for me less talented/skilled OSU, Mich teams. Maryland and Sparty were decent teams, Wis was an elite team, and then you had a lot of mediocre teams and terrible teams. To be fair, college basketball overall was down last year. The level of talent is not as good because the best players leave early for the NBA. Still, this is an argument against Fran's coaching. He had a senior/junior dominated team, with tons of starting experience. This should have been a huge advantage to Iowa, even in games where they had inferior talent to their opponent.

This is also why Iowa should be able to become the next wis. This is the formula that Bo Ryan used to build his program. For the most part, he recruited players who stayed 4 years. They were very good college players, but not NBA good. This allowed Bo to always have guys on the court who knew the system inside and out. Fran could follow this model, however, Fran isn't near as good of a coach as Bo. Ryan's teams knew how to close out close games. Wis teams always play tough defense, and don't beat themselves. In other words, his teams reflected Bo, in that they were disciplined, sticklers for detail, and extremely tough mentally.

Fran's teams don't play great defense, they are mentally weak, very undisciplined when things get tough. Hence why they crumble like a stack of cards at the end of so many close games.

Apparently you care, you were trying to argue last year was a historically down year in the Big, and that just isn't factually true.

We all get that you don't like Fran. He is no Bo Ryan, few are. He's brought the program back from the depths of Lick and he has proven to be a winner wherever he has coached. I'd suggest maybe your judgement on him and the players is both harsh and short sighted.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

Apparently you care, you were trying to argue last year was a historically down year in the Big, and that just isn't factually true.

We all get that you don't like Fran. He is no Bo Ryan, few are. He's brought the program back from the depths of Lick and he has proven to be a winner wherever he has coached. I'd suggest maybe your judgement on him and the players is both harsh and short sighted.

Sigh. How is it not factually true? You are taking one "stat" performance of 1 team in the NCAA tournament as your "proof". LOL. You do know that the best team doesn't always when the NCAA tournament, don't you?

Ah, thanks for showing your true colors. You can't make an intelligent argument so you resort to the "you don't like Fran'. I don't believe my judgement of him and the players is harsh or short sighted, whereas, I believe yours is Pollyannaish. What is Fran's record in games 5 points or less? Great, he's better than Lick. That's a high bar you set. He's Alford or Davis. There's nothing wrong with that but I was hoping for more.

 

[And1Hawk]

Sigh. How is it not factually true? You are taking one "stat" performance of 1 team in the NCAA tournament as your "proof". LOL. You do know that the best team doesn't always when the NCAA tournament, don't you?

Ah, thanks for showing your true colors. You can't make an intelligent argument so you resort to the "you don't like Fran'. I don't believe my judgement of him and the players is harsh or short sighted, whereas, I believe yours is Pollyannaish. What is Fran's record in games 5 points or less? Great, he's better than Lick. That's a high bar you set. He's Alford or Davis. There's nothing wrong with that but I was hoping for more.

Like it or not the NCAA tournament is what all programs and conferences are judged by today. Although it's an honor to win a conference title or a conference tourney title if you lose early after that accomplishment the season feels devalued. See ISU last year as an example or our Alford team losing to NE LA State.

This is off the top of my head but I think the B1G has been in the final game of the NCAA tourney 7 times in the last 15 years. The 7 consists of 6 different teams; MSU (2), Wisky, MI, IL, OSU, IU. That's pretty darn impressive. This does not include a number of final 16, 8 & 4 appearances that did not end in the title game. You are correct that some good teams were upset in any given year but you still have to play who is in front of you and it requires winning multiple games. It's not easy.

You have asserted that the talent level is down due to kids leaving early for the NBA draft which is true but that's true for the competition level across the board. I fail to see how that impacts one school or conference and not another?

The bottom line is Fran is our coach and he's going to be the coach for the foreseeable future so let it play out. Iowa has not been a basketball meca anytime recently has it? When was our last regular season conference title? Was it not in the early 80's under Lute which is approaching 35-40 years ago and 5 coaches yet you have that expectation for Fran? How is it realistic to be impatient nor help our cause? Should we just continue to turn coaches over every 4 years hoping that we get lucky?

It seems to me that we need continuity at this point. A lot of damage was done to the Iowa bball brand that we once had and Fran has made some positive strides in repairing that brand. He's put in a boatload of effort that is not appreciated by some. We are not there yet but taking steps in the right direction over the course of seasons. Our next issue is learning how to win tight games at the end and/or closing out tight games. If that were an easy, no brainer fix there would be a book on how to do that everyone could use. There's a learning process even for an experienced coach like Fran on a big time level that we compete in.

So as I have said to you before there are plenty of teams out there that can satisfy your expectations right now. There's no need to beat your head against the wall with Iowa if you are not strong and tough enough to endure the challenge. No one is going to blame you for jumping ship.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

Like it or not the NCAA tournament is what all programs and conferences are judged by today. Although it's an honor to win a conference title or a conference tourney title if you lose early after that accomplishment the season feels devalued. See ISU last year as an example or our Alford team losing to NE LA State.

This is off the top of my head but I think the B1G has been in the final game of the NCAA tourney 7 times in the last 15 years. The 7 consists of 6 different teams; MSU (2), Wisky, MI, IL, OSU, IU. That's pretty darn impressive. This does not include a number of final 16, 8 & 4 appearances that did not end in the title game. You are correct that some good teams were upset in any given year but you still have to play who is in front of you and it requires winning multiple games. It's not easy.

You have asserted that the talent level is down due to kids leaving early for the NBA draft which is true but that's true for the competition level across the board. I fail to see how that impacts one school or conference and not another?

The bottom line is Fran is our coach and he's going to be the coach for the foreseeable future so let it play out. Iowa has not been a basketball meca anytime recently has it? When was our last regular season conference title? Was it not in the early 80's under Lute which is approaching 35-40 years ago and 5 coaches yet you have that expectation for Fran? How is it realistic to be impatient nor help our cause? Should we just continue to turn coaches over every 4 years hoping that we get lucky?

It seems to me that we need continuity at this point. A lot of damage was done to the Iowa bball brand that we once had and Fran has made some positive strides in repairing that brand. He's put in a boatload of effort that is not appreciated by some. We are not there yet but taking steps in the right direction over the course of seasons. Our next issue is learning how to win tight games at the end and/or closing out tight games. If that were an easy, no brainer fix there would be a book on how to do that everyone could use. There's a learning process even for an experienced coach like Fran on a big time level that we compete in.

So as I have said to you before there are plenty of teams out there that can satisfy your expectations right now. There's no need to beat your head against the wall with Iowa if you are not strong and tough enough to endure the challenge. No one is going to blame you for jumping ship.

I've already made that point, saying the talent is down across the board. The NCAA tournament has nothing to do with conference standings, nor the talent level of a certain team. A number 1 team might get beat by a 16 seed, which will be a terrible tournament loss, and huge disappointment to the fan base. However, it doesn't change the face this was a very good team that season, and a tough opponent to play against in the conference. That was what the other poster was talking about, quality of opponents.

Next, thanks for agreeing with me though. As you say talent is down across the board because the best players are leaving early. This is a BENEFIT to a team like Iowa who the last couple years has been dominated by an upperclassmen starting lineup.

There isn't some groundswell of fans who wants Fran fired. I don't. I'm willing to "let this play out" as you say. I'm also willing to make a commentary on how I think things will play out. I'm not sure why that offends you. I'm not asking you to agree with my assessment.

Why would I root for someone else? I'm an Iowa fan. Plus, I wouldn't feel right leaving as you need my input/analysis to balance out your sally sunshine view of the program. I help bring a little realism to your fantasy world. What can I say, I'm a helluva nice guy and feel it's my duty to help poor chaps like you.

 

[And1Hawk]

I've already made that point, saying the talent is down across the board. The NCAA tournament has nothing to do with conference standings, nor the talent level of a certain team. A number 1 team might get beat by a 16 seed, which will be a terrible tournament loss, and huge disappointment to the fan base. However, it doesn't change the face this was a very good team that season, and a tough opponent to play against in the conference. That was what the other poster was talking about, quality of opponents.

Next, thanks for agreeing with me though. As you say talent is down across the board because the best players are leaving early. This is a BENEFIT to a team like Iowa who the last couple years has been dominated by an upperclassmen starting lineup.

There isn't some groundswell of fans who wants Fran fired. I don't. I'm willing to "let this play out" as you say. I'm also willing to make a commentary on how I think things will play out. I'm not sure why that offends you. I'm not asking you to agree with my assessment.

Why would I root for someone else? I'm an Iowa fan. Plus, I wouldn't feel right leaving as you need my input/analysis to balance out your sally sunshine view of the program. I help bring a little realism to your fantasy world. What can I say, I'm a helluva nice guy and feel it's my duty to help poor chaps like you.

Still not buying you are an Iowa fan but playing along. Too many holes in your story and you have yet to rebut much and/or provide analysis or insight on the history of Iowa bball.

The NCAA tourney is the ultimate judge. You are correct that you can have a really good team and good regular season but at the end of the day a team will be remembered and judged by making the tourney and what you do in the tourney balanced by the perception that comes from your seed. The higher the seed, the more expectation. If you want to discount this reality then list some teams (by year) that national pundits still rave about that were highly seeded but bowed out of the tourney early. That should be easy based on your assertion.

In terms of the BENEFIT as you see it you are also trying to assert that Iowa is a rare team with veteran players based on early exits to the draft. There's about 330 D1 teams and about 35-45 early entrees per year of which only about 10 or so guys are considered elite. You can do the math in terms of the roster numbers across D1 or just the power 5//6 if you want and can quickly see Iowa is not alone in having veteran players based on actual data. Typically the majority of these elite guys are on a 'blue blood' roster like Kentuvky, Duke, Kansas, etc. Further if you are truly an Iowa fan you could list the number of 4 or 5 star guys we have had in the past 35-40 years and maybe even say something about their career having watched them play. Again another easy layup given your assertions right?

 

[icantfindausernamethatisntused]

There isn't some groundswell of fans who wants Fran fired. I don't. I'm willing to "let this play out" as you say. I'm also willing to make a commentary on how I think things will play out. I'm not sure why that offends you. I'm not asking you to agree with my assessment.

To be clear, I never took anything that you've said in this thread as meaning you want Fran fired. However, given Iowa's history of letting Dr. Tom go because he couldn't get us to the "next level", I can see why some might think you mean you would like to see Fran fired when you say in this thread that you don't think Fran can take us to the next level.

Moreover, in today's collegiate athletics culture, we see programs around the country firing good coaches because those coaches cannot bring those programs conference championships as often as they would like. I think the Minnesota basketball program is a good example. Under Tubby Smith they consistently won 20+ games, got to the tournament, and were often ranked. Minnesota thought they could do better, and since Tubby left their program has not been winning at the same level.

Will Iowa ever be a blue chip program under Fran? I doubt it. But I do think we will make the tournament more often than not with Fran, and I do think he can produce some top 10 teams if everything aligns right in any given season. This year our football program proved that sticking with your current coach doesn't mean you are settling for mediocrity. We stuck with Ferentz even when many said he could no longer produce an elite team, and this year we were only inches away from playing for the National Championship.

 

[ZaHawks]

Fran is doing a great job! If you're not happy, support a different team.