Is It Socialism or Is It Government?

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The linked article is a really good list. EXCEPT it isn't really a list of socialist ideas and programs. It's a list of government programs. Too many people seem to think government and socialism are the same thing - so that anything done by government is socialism. Pretty stupid, I know, but there's a lot of that going around.

If you doubt that, let me point out that quite a few of the things listed in the article are also features of other governments around the world and through history - many back in the middle ages or even the Roman and Chinese empires - long before socialism or democracy emerged as significant ideas or movements.

The list is also interesting because, as you skim it, you will find things you like and things you dislike. If they really were all socialist ideas - and remember some are - you'd probably like a higher percentage of them.

Finally, let me cut and paste one that is clearly wrong:

11. War – That’s right! War would not be possible without socialism. Your tax dollars are used to fight wars for your country. This is Big Government at it’s biggest. Private companies don’t attack other countries, at least not yet. Government is the only entity in America that can defend us from foreign enemies and our tax dollars are used for every second of it. Socialism has brought down Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Bin Laden. War may very well be the most socialist thing on this list.

I mean it's nice that the author wants to credit socialism with bringing down Hitler and other baddies, but that wasn't socialism. Sure, there have been wars in which nations that style themselves as "socialist" participated. But war is one of those clear examples of things humanity managed to do a lot of long before there was socialism. And most socialists would argue that socialist societies are much less likely to start or join wars, unless attacked.

Here's the article title. Click the link for the full list, with brief discussion per item. Too long to cut and paste.

75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America — Democratic Socialism in 2016

https://undertheduvetproductions.wo...mproved-america-democratic-socialism-in-2016/

 

[NoleSoup4U]

They are inherently connected. You can't have socialism without government.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

They are inherently connected. You can't have socialism without government.

True but you can have government without socialism.

Socialism is government ownership of the means of production. However anymore socialism is becoming a right wing word for a government program they don't like. Giving healthcare to people who can't afford it and feeding poor people isn't socialism.

The closest thing we've came to a socialist policy is when the government bought shares of GM in order to save it. Since those shares have been sold we no longer are under any real socialist policies.

 

[The Tradition]

True but you can have government without socialism.

Socialism is government ownership of the means of production. However anymore socialism is becoming a right wing word for a government program they don't like. Giving healthcare to people who can't afford it and feeding poor people isn't socialism.

The closest thing we've came to a socialist policy is when the government bought shares of GM in order to save it. Since those shares have been sold we no longer are under any real socialist policies.

No, that's communism. Socialism is the stepping stone to communism.

 

[YellowSnow51]

The linked article is a really good list. EXCEPT it isn't really a list of socialist ideas and programs. It's a list of government programs. Too many people seem to think government and socialism are the same thing - so that anything done by government is socialism. Pretty stupid, I know, but there's a lot of that going around.

You know you're describing most on the left and many of the lefties on here. Larry O'Donnell is a big one.

"Do you like the road you drive on? Well then, you like socialism!"

It's the one of the dumbest things they do...on both sides.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

True but you can have government without socialism.

Socialism is government ownership of the means of production. However anymore socialism is becoming a right wing word for a government program they don't like. Giving healthcare to people who can't afford it and feeding poor people isn't socialism.

The closest thing we've came to a socialist policy is when the government bought shares of GM in order to save it. Since those shares have been sold we no longer are under any real socialist policies.

While who owns the means of production is one of the traditional elements of socialism, it isn't the only element. Nor was that usually couched as "government ownership" but rather ownership by the workers or the people.

Back when socialism was popular in this nation - a century ago - typical socialist proposals had to do with public education, workplace safety, food safety, anti-war, broadening the vote, child labor, anti-trust, and so on. None of those involved government ownership of anything, but they were definitely socialist values.

Most of us are glad that all but 1 of those of those socialist values (anti-war) made it into law and the fabric of our culture. Some of us are concerned that a few of those socialist values are being rolled back. Anti-trust, public education, and voting, for example.

The first 2 examples you mention as not being socialism - health care and feeding the poor - actually are socialism.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

No, that's communism. Socialism is the stepping stone to communism.

Not really. Capitalism is much more a stepping stone to fascism than socialism is a stepping stone to communism - assuming you mean Soviet style government when you say "communism."

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

While who owns the means of production is one of the traditional elements of socialism, it isn't the only element. Nor was that usually couched as "government ownership" but rather ownership by the workers or the people.

Back when socialism was popular in this nation - a century ago - typical socialist proposals had to do with public education, workplace safety, food safety, anti-war, broadening the vote, child labor, anti-trust, and so on. None of those involved government ownership of anything, but they were definitely socialist values.

Most of us are glad that all but 1 of those of those socialist values (anti-war) made it into law and the fabric of our culture. Some of us are concerned that a few of those socialist values are being rolled back. Anti-trust, public education, and voting, for example.

The first 2 examples you mention as not being socialism - health care and feeding the poor - actually are socialism.

I would say those things are things that socialists value. . . but they are not socialism in and of themselves. You are confusing the goals of socialism with the means by which socialists want to bring those things about.

The way I see it, socialists believe that the best way or the only way to achieve all the things they value is through government ownership of the means of production.

Socialist values on war are different depending on what socialist you talk to. Many socialists have been very big on war and violence to achieve their aims and not been very big on things like voting.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Not really. Capitalism is much more a stepping stone to fascism than socialism is a stepping stone to communism - assuming you mean Soviet style government when you say "communism."

The Soviet government was never communist. Communist is a collective ownership of the means of production and only plausible in small societies where everyone holds similar values and beliefs. Communism is not possible in nation state of any real size.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The Soviet government was never communist. Communist is a collective ownership of the means of production and only plausible in small societies where everyone holds similar values and beliefs. Communism is not possible in nation state of any real size.

This is closer to correct than your view of socialism.

Both involve collective ownership of certain things, and not others. Communism being more encompassing than socialism. Both, for example, would embrace national parks. And public schools. And public stewardship of national resources. But whereas communism would likely endorse collectivization of farming, socialism would be fine with private ownership of family farms (but not Big Ag, as we know it today). Both recognize the value of labor, but socialists are more likely to say that the individual owns the products of his own labor - whereas the communist would say that some part of that belongs to all, while the capitalist would say it belongs entirely or mainly to the employer or the person who supplied the raw materials.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

The linked article is a really good list. EXCEPT it isn't really a list of socialist ideas and programs. It's a list of government programs. Too many people seem to think government and socialism are the same thing - so that anything done by government is socialism. Pretty stupid, I know, but there's a lot of that going around.

If you doubt that, let me point out that quite a few of the things listed in the article are also features of other governments around the world and through history - many back in the middle ages or even the Roman and Chinese empires - long before socialism or democracy emerged as significant ideas or movements.

The list is also interesting because, as you skim it, you will find things you like and things you dislike. If they really were all socialist ideas - and remember some are - you'd probably like a higher percentage of them.

Finally, let me cut and paste one that is clearly wrong:

11. War – That’s right! War would not be possible without socialism. Your tax dollars are used to fight wars for your country. This is Big Government at it’s biggest. Private companies don’t attack other countries, at least not yet. Government is the only entity in America that can defend us from foreign enemies and our tax dollars are used for every second of it. Socialism has brought down Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Bin Laden. War may very well be the most socialist thing on this list.

I mean it's nice that the author wants to credit socialism with bringing down Hitler and other baddies, but that wasn't socialism. Sure, there have been wars in which nations that style themselves as "socialist" participated. But war is one of those clear examples of things humanity managed to do a lot of long before there was socialism. And most socialists would argue that socialist societies are much less likely to start or join wars, unless attacked.

Here's the article title. Click the link for the full list, with brief discussion per item. Too long to cut and paste.

75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America — Democratic Socialism in 2016

https://undertheduvetproductions.wo...mproved-america-democratic-socialism-in-2016/

Our last war was primarily started for the benefit of certain corporations on whose board sits a certain former vice-president.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

They are inherently connected. You can't have socialism without government.

That was my first thought as well. I wonder how many others came up with that thought?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

True but you can have government without socialism.

Socialism is government ownership of the means of production. However anymore socialism is becoming a right wing word for a government program they don't like. Giving healthcare to people who can't afford it and feeding poor people isn't socialism.

The closest thing we've came to a socialist policy is when the government bought shares of GM in order to save it. Since those shares have been sold we no longer are under any real socialist policies.

Forcing for others to pay for the healthcare and/or food for poor people is absolutely socialism. It may be socialism that you agree with, but it is still socialism. And I don't tend to listen to what the Republicans scream about because they have their socialist tendencies as well.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Not really. Capitalism is much more a stepping stone to fascism than socialism is a stepping stone to communism - assuming you mean Soviet style government when you say "communism."

How so? Capitalism needs less government intervention to work. Fascism, Communism, and Socialism all need more government to work.

 

[strummingram]

Our last war was primarily started for the benefit of certain corporations on whose board sits a certain former vice-president.

Our "last war?" You meant warS, plural. That is why wars are fought.

 

[thewop]

I've summarized things for those who are confused by all of the above posts. While it's a generalization, if we remember these, we'll all do OK in life:

Socialism = Bad
Compassion = Good
Communism = Bad
Capitalism = Good
Philanthropy = Good
Fascism = Bad
Respect for others = Good
Bigotry = Bad

If everyone follows that, the proper mentality will fall into place, and our nation, states, local governments and households will do just fine.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I've summarized things for those who are confused by all of the above posts. While it's a generalization, if we remember these, we'll all do OK in life:

Socialism = Bad
Compassion = Good
Communism = Bad
Capitalism = Good
Philanthropy = Good
Fascism = Bad
Respect for others = Good
Bigotry = Bad

If everyone follows that, the proper mentality will fall into place, and our nation, states, local governments and households will do just fine.

Ah-ha!

What we clearly want is for everyone to show respect for others.

Beyond that we count on compassionate capitalistic philanthropy to take care of everything else.

 

[strummingram]

Capitalism requires EVERYTHING to grow and increase, exponentially. So I've heard, anyway.

 

[Metuo Accipiter]

While who owns the means of production is one of the traditional elements of socialism, it isn't the only element. Nor was that usually couched as "government ownership" but rather ownership by the workers or the people.

Back when socialism was popular in this nation - a century ago - typical socialist proposals had to do with public education, workplace safety, food safety, anti-war, broadening the vote, child labor, anti-trust, and so on. None of those involved government ownership of anything, but they were definitely socialist values.

Most of us are glad that all but 1 of those of those socialist values (anti-war) made it into law and the fabric of our culture. Some of us are concerned that a few of those socialist values are being rolled back. Anti-trust, public education, and voting, for example.

The first 2 examples you mention as not being socialism - health care and feeding the poor - actually are socialism.

Can you give us the specific reference you are using the justify labeling those things "socialist values"?

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Our "last war?" You meant warS, plural. That is why wars are fought.

Yup, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. are all still very much ongoing, despite what anyone wants to say.

 

[Metuo Accipiter]

Here is the actual list of socialist countries per wiki:

Country Since Party Head of party Head of state Head of government

Lao People's Democratic Republic 2 December 1975 Lao People's Revolutionary Party

People's Republic of China 1 October 1949 Communist Party of China Xi Jinping

Republic of Cuba 1 July 1966 Communist Party of Cuba Raúl Castro

Socialist Republic of Vietnam 2 July 1976 Communist Party of Vietnam Nguyen Phu Trong


Non-Marxist–Leninist[edit]
Current countries with constitutional references to socialism[edit]

People's Republic of Bangladesh 11 April 1971 Multi-party system Preamble: "Further pledging that it shall be a fundamental aim of the State to realise through the democratic process, a socialist society free from exploitation, a society in which the rule of law, fundamental human rights and freedoms, equality and justice, political, economic and social, will be secured for all citizens;"[21]

Republic of Guinea-Bissau 24 September 1973 Multi-party system [citation needed]

Co-operative Republic of Guyana 6 October 1980 Multi-party system Preamble: "Convinced that the organisation of the State and society on socialist principles is the only means of ensuring social and economic justice for all of the people of Guyana; and, therefore, being motivated and guided by the principles of socialism"[22]

Republic of India 18 December 1976 [23] Multi-party system Preamble: "We, the people of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic and to secure to all its citizens:"[24]

Democratic People's Republic of Korea 19 February 1992 One-party system Preamble: "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is the socialist motherland of Juche, which has applied the idea and leadership of Kim Il-sung."[25]

Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal 20 September 2015 Multi-party system Section 1, Article 4: "Nepal is an independent, indivisible, sovereign, secular, inclusive democratic, socialism-oriented federal democratic republican state".

Portuguese Republic 2 April 1976 Multi-party system Preamble: "The Constituent Assembly affirms the Portuguese people’s decision to (...) open up a path towards a socialist society"[26]

Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe 12 July 1975 Multi-party system [citation needed]

Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka 7 September 1978 Multi-party system Preamble: "[...] to constitute Sri Lanka into a democratic socialist republic whilst ratifying the immutable republican principles of representative democracy, and assuring to all peoples freedom, equality, justice, fundamental human rights and the independence of the judiciary"[27]

United Republic of Tanzania 26 April 1964 Multi-party system Section 1, Article 3: "The United Republic is a democratic, secular and socialist state which adheres to multi-party democracy".[28]

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Forcing for others to pay for the healthcare and/or food for poor people is absolutely socialism. It may be socialism that you agree with, but it is still socialism. And I don't tend to listen to what the Republicans scream about because they have their socialist tendencies as well.

Except that doesn't fit any dictionary definition of socialism. It only invents a definition in which conservatives have made up in their own minds.

By the definition of it, Bernie Sanders isn't really even a socialist.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Except that doesn't fit any dictionary definition of socialism. It only invents a definition in which conservatives have made up in their own minds.

By the definition of it, Bernie Sanders isn't really even a socialist.

If you think the Government has been moving towards socialism you're just being silly. First off, the apple ordeal is a great example. As is things like the Freedom Act, and CISA. All of these are being used in order to gain control over certain instances of how the business runs. The ACA was an attempt to move a step closer towards a Single Payer system, which is in fact a Government issued and controlled system.

As it stands now, we do have forms of socialism, DMV, DOD, DHS(both of them), DOE, etc. We are not as far away from being full on socialist as people would like to think. The government has a good way to making Corporations into the ONLY bad guy in the minds of the people.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

If you think the Government has been moving towards socialism you're just being silly. First off, the apple ordeal is a great example. As is things like the Freedom Act, and CISA. All of these are being used in order to gain control over certain instances of how the business runs. The ACA was an attempt to move a step closer towards a Single Payer system, which is in fact a Government issued and controlled system.

As it stands now, we do have forms of socialism, DMV, DOD, DHS(both of them), DOE, etc. We are not as far away from being full on socialist as people would like to think. The government has a good way to making Corporations into the ONLY bad guy in the minds of the people.

Only if you consider licensing of motor vehicles, national defense, health insurance and education to be a means of production.

We may be moving to greater government control over certain key areas of life but that doesn't mean it's socialism.

 

[Titanhawk2]

The linked article is a really good list. EXCEPT it isn't really a list of socialist ideas and programs. It's a list of government programs. Too many people seem to think government and socialism are the same thing - so that anything done by government is socialism. Pretty stupid, I know, but there's a lot of that going around.

If you doubt that, let me point out that quite a few of the things listed in the article are also features of other governments around the world and through history - many back in the middle ages or even the Roman and Chinese empires - long before socialism or democracy emerged as significant ideas or movements.

The list is also interesting because, as you skim it, you will find things you like and things you dislike. If they really were all socialist ideas - and remember some are - you'd probably like a higher percentage of them.

Finally, let me cut and paste one that is clearly wrong:

11. War – That’s right! War would not be possible without socialism. Your tax dollars are used to fight wars for your country. This is Big Government at it’s biggest. Private companies don’t attack other countries, at least not yet. Government is the only entity in America that can defend us from foreign enemies and our tax dollars are used for every second of it. Socialism has brought down Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Bin Laden. War may very well be the most socialist thing on this list.

I mean it's nice that the author wants to credit socialism with bringing down Hitler and other baddies, but that wasn't socialism. Sure, there have been wars in which nations that style themselves as "socialist" participated. But war is one of those clear examples of things humanity managed to do a lot of long before there was socialism. And most socialists would argue that socialist societies are much less likely to start or join wars, unless attacked.

Here's the article title. Click the link for the full list, with brief discussion per item. Too long to cut and paste.

75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America — Democratic Socialism in 2016

https://undertheduvetproductions.wo...mproved-america-democratic-socialism-in-2016/

If the government, in and of itself, if trying to "change" its people, exercise more control over its people, then it is socialism

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

If the government, in and of itself, if trying to "change" its people, exercise more control over its people, then it is socialism

Please explain.

Many governments around the world and throughout history have tried to exercise more control over their people. That's a matter of power, not socialism.

Many religions around the world and throughout history have tried to change people. A matter of ideology, not socialism.