Is Raheel Raza a racist Islamaphobe OR is she telling us the truth?

[tarheelbybirth]

you're excusing islamic terrorism in your mind because of a hypothetical scenario where some people might do something? hard to reason with logic this flimsy.

No religious context to Nazism?

The nazi's viewed Hitler as a God and whatever he said was God's truth.

LOL...that's just total BS. Cite a source for your contention. I would have a much easier time tying Hitler to Christianity as you did...Hitler's followers were most certainly Christians...and you want to claim that Islam is a more depraved religion? Tell that to the survivors of Auschwitz. And unlike the Crusades, the Holocaust has living survivors.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

LOL...that's just total BS. Cite a source for your contention. I would have a much easier time tying Hitler to Christianity as you did...Hitler's followers were most certainly Christians...and you want to claim that Islam is a more depraved religion? Tell that to the survivors of Auschwitz. And unlike the Crusades, the Holocaust has living survivors.

actually, hitler did think he was god and he attacked Christianity because he was jealous of it, got rid of it. prior to him Germany was largely Christian and I think catholic, mostly. he got rid of the church. socialism and fascism and communism, this is what they do: get rid of religion first. Obama is the same exact way. make the state god. make hitler god. make Obama god.

hitler was obsessed with the sun god religion, the religion of making idols into gods, that's why he chose the sun god swastika.

also, hitler was obsessed with Tibet and the mysticism of that culture, very anti-Christian, more like sun god or idol worship, so is Obama into idol worship and the taking of a symbol and putting it on flags and such

 

[tarheelbybirth]

So the video. Did you believe the "facts" that she presented, or do you believe she's making most of it up? Hell, even she calls it Radical Islam. Do you continue to stick with POTUS in calling it anything but Radical Islam?

The video is completely immaterial to the point. Call it radical Islam...radical Christianity...radical atheism...radical whatever.
Do you see what ties them together? Radicals will seize on a justification...or they will invent one. When has that not been true?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Why do percentages matter? Are there "Christians" who commit atrocities in the name of their religion? Yes. Are there people who disavow ALL religion who commit atrocities that make Daesh look like amateurs? Yes. The point - which you seem to have missed - is that these people would invent an excuse to commit atrocities even if Islam never existed. Anyone who thinks they're killing simply because Islam supposedly commands them to do so is an idiot.

%'s matter a lot. Did you watch the video? If so then you would know that they believe Islam allows them to kill someone who has left the faith.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Real thoughts before the distraction?

OK, I watched it.

Lots of good facts (assuming the facts are correct) well mixed with pretty blatant anti-Islam propaganda that most people seem blind to.

It's fun to overlay Sam Harris's concentric circles on our own culture. Not that hard to do.

At the core we have groups like the KKK, Westboro, the abortion clinic bombers, and so on.

Next we have a large portion of American evangelists.

Then we have Republicans and conservatives in general.

Go ahead and get upset by that. But if some video produced by those who want to defend Islam and attack the West, America and Christians laid that out, all the cons in their world would be just as on board as our cons are with this video.

Notice the smooth distortions. Everybody agrees that ISIS is awful. Everybody is opposed to beheadings. But after claiming that there are 200K in ISIS (almost certainly an exaggeration, but that's probably a clever use of the "up to" qualifier), she then piles on Al Qaeda (no particular argument there) and progressively more civil groups until it starts feeling that all Muslims are awful. Several of those she adds on are not violent like ISIS, and do participate in governments. We may not like their aims, but they are more or less peacefully pursuing them. Just like we many not like the aims of political parties here, but they are participating peacefully.

But again, you can make similar overlays for our culture. We see beheadings as barbaric, and suicide bombers as terrible. But we condone drones and cluster bombs. They kill journalists and aid workers, we kill journalists and doctors. We say they target them them because Islamist radicals are evil. We kill our targets because they got in the way, but somehow that's not evil. Not a lot of high road there.

I am an atheist. Islam is too often an awful religion - in doctrine and in practice. So is Christianity. At this point in time, I agree that Islam is worse. But that hasn't always been the case and probably won't always be the case going forward.

Collective punishment and blame and scapegoating are fundamentally terrorist , fascist and racist tactics. There's plenty of that laced into this slick video. There's also enough fact and genuinely scary stuff to support and encourage dangerous over-generalization.

Islamic extremists are more dangerous than our Religious Right. But not by much. We have many fewer bombers and no beheaders (as far as I know), but we certainly have plenty of people who approve of violence toward the "enemy." How close to the line are they? Disrupt our world enough and would there be any difference?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

%'s matter a lot. Did you watch the video? If so then you would know that they believe Islam allows them to kill someone who has left the faith.

A view shared by Christians on and off throughout history. While actions are ultimately most important, there's a fine line between what many of our evangelicals preach and seem to want, and what radical Islamists do.

We are more likely to wage wars when people leave the capitalist faith than the Christian faith. But that wasn't always true in the West.

 

[Jan Itor]

The video is completely immaterial to the point. Call it radical Islam...radical Christianity...radical atheism...radical whatever.
Do you see what ties them together? Radicals will seize on a justification...or they will invent one. When has that not been true?

I don't know. I thought the point was that saying 99.9% of all Muslims in this world are peaceful is not fact. And that the non-peaceful Muslims, or at least the non-peaceful and the ones that support the non-peaceful is somewhere around the 20+% range. And if that's true, when is our POTUS and others going to stop lying to us, or at least, misrepresenting the facts.

Yes, even with the number based on the video, the majority are peaceful. But those that aren't, is a hell of a lot higher than .1%.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

A view shared by Christians on and off throughout history. While actions are ultimately most important, there's a fine line between what many of our evangelicals preach and seem to want, and what radical Islamists do.

We are more likely to wage wars when people leave the capitalist faith than the Christian faith. But that wasn't always true in the West.

I agree that applying harris's circles to christianity would be interesting but it was also illustrate the point of the video even better. It would be even better if the circles were to scale then you would really see the point. The radical center of Islam is far, far, far, far, far, far,far,far bigger than the world's other major religions. But to say so, would be racist or islamaphobic, kind of the point of the video.
This is not even remotely true. Bolded Outside of a rare individual show me the 25-50% of evangelicals preaching that people should die (that would be the fine line between word and actions) like you find in Islam.
I'm an atheist and you're making me defend christianity. nice work.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I agree that applying harris's circles to christianity would be interesting but it was also illustrate the point of the video even better. It would be even better if the circles were to scale then you would really see the point. The radical center of Islam is far, far, far, far, far, far,far,far bigger than the world's other major religions. But to say so, would be racist or islamaphobic, kind of the point of the video.
This is not even remotely true. Bolded Outside of a rare individual show me the 25-50% of evangelicals preaching that people should die (that would be the fine line between word and actions) like you find in Islam.
I'm an atheist and you're making me defend christianity. nice work.

You focused on the one thing where the difference is great - preaching that people should die. Although even there, plenty of them preach that millions or billions will burn for eternity and deserve to. So maybe the difference isn't as large as you think.

In any case, I was thinking more about things like treatment of women, imposition of religious law, religion influencing government, religion in schools, and so on. As I understand it some of the laws in Africa punishing homosexuality with death were promoted by American evangelists. Many of the contentious cultural "wars" in America are fundamentally religious in nature (pun not intended, but it works). Abortion is a religious issue. Gay marriage is a religious issue. Attacks on science are in part a religious issue. And don't get me started on our current so-called religious freedom debates. In my lifetime Christianity has been used to defend racist violence, homophobic violence, subjugation of women, business restrictions, teaching bad science, and more. It was an underpinning of the Cold War. Even as late as the 1970s Christianity-influenced antisemitism was still fairly common in the US (and was widespread a few decades earlier).

 

[Jan Itor]

You focused on the one thing where the difference is great - preaching that people should die. Although even there, plenty of them preach that millions or billions will burn for eternity and deserve to. So maybe the difference isn't as large as you think.

In any case, I was thinking more about things like treatment of women, imposition of religious law, religion influencing government, religion in schools, and so on. As I understand it some of the laws in Africa punishing homosexuality with death were promoted by American evangelists. Many of the contentious cultural "wars" in America are fundamentally religious in nature (pun not intended, but it works). Abortion is a religious issue. Gay marriage is a religious issue. Attacks on science are in part a religious issue. And don't get me started on our current so-called religious freedom debates. In my lifetime Christianity has been used to defend racist violence, homophobic violence, subjugation of women, business restrictions, teaching bad science, and more. It was an underpinning of the Cold War. Even as late as the 1970s Christianity-influenced antisemitism was still fairly common in the US (and was widespread a few decades earlier).

They aren't preaching that the deserve it. I have never heard anyone preach that. Have you?

 

[unIowa]

You focused on the one thing where the difference is great - preaching that people should die. Although even there, plenty of them preach that millions or billions will burn for eternity and deserve to. So maybe the difference isn't as large as you think.

In any case, I was thinking more about things like treatment of women, imposition of religious law, religion influencing government, religion in schools, and so on. As I understand it some of the laws in Africa punishing homosexuality with death were promoted by American evangelists. Many of the contentious cultural "wars" in America are fundamentally religious in nature (pun not intended, but it works). Abortion is a religious issue. Gay marriage is a religious issue. Attacks on science are in part a religious issue. And don't get me started on our current so-called religious freedom debates. In my lifetime Christianity has been used to defend racist violence, homophobic violence, subjugation of women, business restrictions, teaching bad science, and more. It was an underpinning of the Cold War. Even as late as the 1970s Christianity-influenced antisemitism was still fairly common in the US (and was widespread a few decades earlier).

But you would still rather live in the US, with all of that, vs in an area that is ruled by Sharia law.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

%'s matter a lot. Did you watch the video? If so then you would know that they believe Islam allows them to kill someone who has left the faith.

And Christianity allows for the stoning of blasphemers. Right there in the text.

I don't know. I thought the point was that saying 99.9% of all Muslims in this world are peaceful is not fact. And that the non-peaceful Muslims, or at least the non-peaceful and the ones that support the non-peaceful is somewhere around the 20+% range. And if that's true, when is our POTUS and others going to stop lying to us, or at least, misrepresenting the facts.

Yes, even with the number based on the video, the majority are peaceful. But those that aren't, is a hell of a lot higher than .1%.

And? Tell me there weren't right wingers who supported Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph. How many members does the Army of God claim and how many right-wingers support their agenda of bombing abortion clinics? I'd be willing to bet that's far higher than .1% of the right wing subset. You ready to condemn all right wingers? No? Why not?

 

[Jan Itor]

And Christianity allows for the stoning of blasphemers. Right there in the text.


And? Tell me there weren't right wingers who supported Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph. How many members does the Army of God claim and how many right-wingers support their agenda of bombing abortion clinics? I'd be willing to bet that's far higher than .1% of the right wing subset. You ready to condemn all right wingers? No? Why not?

I haven't condemned Muslims either, so what's your point?

And per your response about stoning above, is that practiced in modern times?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I haven't condemned Muslims either, so what's your point?

And per your response about stoning above, is that practiced in modern times?

My point is the same as it's been from the beginning. I assume your point is that anyone can spout some numbers and put a YouTube video out. Sound about right?

As for stoning, I have no idea. I'm not sure why it matters. It certainly doesn't matter to my point.

 

[Jan Itor]

My point is the same as it's been from the beginning. I assume your point is that anyone can spout some numbers and put a YouTube video out. Sound about right?

As for stoning, I have no idea. I'm not sure why it matters. It certainly doesn't matter to my point.

People on here like to bring up the past when the discussion of Islam and Christianity comes up. When atrocities are committed by radical Islamist's, someone always brings up the stoning s in the Old Testament.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

People on here like to bring up the past when the discussion of Islam and Christianity comes up. When atrocities are committed by radical Islamist's, someone always brings up the stoning s in the Old Testament.

Because it illustrates how the Bible could be used to inspire atrocities...and HAS. Now it's Islam. Same goals - different horse. Do away with Islam. They'll climb on another horse. So what's the point of blaming the horse?

 

[Jan Itor]

Because it illustrates how the Bible could be used to inspire atrocities...and HAS. Now it's Islam. Same goals - different horse. Do away with Islam. They'll climb on another horse. So what's the point of blaming the horse?

What's the point of blaming the gun? See what I did there?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

What's the point of blaming the gun? See what I did there?

Who's blaming guns? Not me. Doesn't mean I want anyone who wants one to be able to get one. Doesn't mean anyone who wants one should be able to get whatever weapon they want? Is that what you support?

See what I did there?

 

[Jan Itor]

Who's blaming guns? Not me. Doesn't mean I want anyone who wants one to be able to get one. Doesn't mean anyone who wants one should be able to get whatever weapon they want? Is that what you support?

See what I did there?

Yes, I see what you did there. You've ignored all my posts supporting tougher gun laws. Well done.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

But you would still rather live in the US, with all of that, vs in an area that is ruled by Sharia law.

Of course. But that doesn't make me happy or sanguine about the influence of radical Christian extremism in my country. How about you?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Yes, I see what you did there. You've ignored all my posts supporting tougher gun laws. Well done.

I didn't ignore anything. You tried a false equivalency and got called on it.

 

[unIowa]

Of course. But that doesn't make me happy or sanguine about the influence of radical Christian extremism in my country. How about you?

Outside of the abortion shoot-up I don't see much in the line of Christian terrorism and from a pure religious perspective it seems Muslims are more devout than Christians...so that indeed qualifies them as scarier.

Mostly though I am looking at my liberal friends and wondering why they don't call out the bad ideas of Islam with the same enthusiasm they do Christianity? It seems skin color (or a perception that all muslims are of some minority race) trumps ideology in the "calling out bad ideas" category for so many.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

And per your response about stoning above, is that practiced in modern times?

This is an important point.

For the most part the radical Islamist atrocities that we are rightfully appalled by these days were not common a couple of decades ago. Where did they come from? Could they happen here? What would it take to tip our proto radical Christian extremists over the edge?

We know that at least some of the Muslim extremism we see - from the Taliban thru al Qaeda to ISIS - was in direct response to our actions. Our actions, more to the point, as dogmatically prosecuted by religious extremists in our government, such as Allen Dulles, Charlie Wilson and others.

Point being that I certainly don't expect to see stoning of adulterers or Sabbath violators in America. But I suspect a lot of Muslims in many parts of the Middle East didn't expect what they are now experiencing, either.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Outside of the abortion shoot-up I don't see much in the line of Christian terrorism and from a pure religious perspective it seems Muslims are more devout than Christians...so that indeed qualifies them as scarier.

Mostly though I am looking at my liberal friends and wondering why they don't call out the bad ideas of Islam with the same enthusiasm they do Christianity? It seems skin color (or a perception that all muslims are of some minority race) trumps ideology in the "calling out bad ideas" category for so many.

LOL...what bad ideas would you like to see "called out"? Beheadings? Consider them called out. Mass murder? Called out. Destruction of ancient sites? Called out. What else? Make a list if you like.

 

[naturalmwa]

Gotta love how some folks believe that if Islam didn't exist, all these killers would just be playing nice with everybody.

Its interesting to imagine a world without Islam. I wonder if they would be Christians or Zoroastrians or still pagan Baal worshipers? Would these other beliefs lead to more or less strife with the modern world?

 

[unIowa]

LOL...what bad ideas would you like to see "called out"? Beheadings? Consider them called out. Mass murder? Called out. Destruction of ancient sites? Called out. What else? Make a list if you like.

Oppression against women, education for girls, and general feelings towards homosexuality...just to name two. It appears the Muslim faith/culture is MUCH less tolerant in these areas. I just wish my liberal friends would call out these bad ideas as enthusiastically they do the bad ideas of Christianity.

When it comes to Islam we have too many race baiting Afflecks and too few Harris/Mahers.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Its interesting to imagine a world without Islam. I wonder if they would be Christians or Zoroastrians or still pagan Baal worshipers? Would these other beliefs lead to more or less strife with the modern world?

They aren't pissed because they're Muslims. They're pissed for all kinds of other reasons. No Islam? They would respond in pretty much the same way using some other ideology as a justification. Even Christianity.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Outside of the abortion shoot-up I don't see much in the line of Christian terrorism and from a pure religious perspective it seems Muslims are more devout than Christians...so that indeed qualifies them as scarier.

Mostly though I am looking at my liberal friends and wondering why they don't call out the bad ideas of Islam with the same enthusiasm they do Christianity? It seems skin color (or a perception that all muslims are of some minority race) trumps ideology in the "calling out bad ideas" category for so many.

For me it's simply percentages. Check my posts and you'll see I'm no friend of Islam and am appalled by the atrocities of radical Islamist extremists.

BUT . . . Everybody is talking about that. And waaaay too many who are talking about that spout some right wing religious nonsense in the next paragraph or minute.

The truth is, I don't need to rail against radical Islam. More than enough people do that. I do feel the need to rail against those here who go overboard. And I do feel the need to rail against radical Christian extremism. Because that isn't getting nearly enough attention - even though we see Texas heading its public school system down the path paved by Islamist madrasas. No . . . they aren't the same. But they are heading the same direction. The Islamist madrasas of 20 years ago educated the ISIS jihadists of today. And still do. What will the Texas curriculum produce with a decade or 2 of religion, historical revisionism and bad science? And how much of that will infect the rest of the nation?

You might have some fun perusing these websites:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/

http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/

If you aren't worried about the Religious Right in America, maybe you have an excuse. It isn't well covered. But it should be.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Oppression against women, education for girls, and general feelings towards homosexuality...just to name two. It appears the Muslim faith/culture is MUCH less tolerant in these areas.

Consider them called out. And recognize that these issues predate Islam. There are predominately Christian countries in Africa where young Christian girls suffer genital mutilation. It is a cultural practice that existed before there was a single Muslim in Africa.

 

[strummingram]

People on here like to bring up the past when the discussion of Islam and Christianity comes up. When atrocities are committed by radical Islamist's, someone always brings up the stoning s in the Old Testament.

The point is not WHEN it took place, but that it DID take place. It can and still does take place. Are radicals using Islam on a greater scale now? Sure. But, it's not the religion of Islam that is doing ANY OF THIS, anymore than it was Christianity doing it last week, last year, or 1000 years ago. Radical people are the problem. Their religions are interchangeable.

I also think the conditions they live in contribute greatly to their situations, too.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

They aren't pissed because they're Muslims. They're pissed for all kinds of other reasons. No Islam? They would respond in pretty much the same way using some other ideology as a justification. Even Christianity.

Wait a minute. Are you saying those who oppose us might have some legitimate gripes?

Surely that can't be true. We are the beacon on the hill.

Or is that bacon?

 

[unIowa]

Wait a minute. Are you saying those who oppose us might have some legitimate gripes?

Surely that can't be true. We are the beacon on the hill.

Or is that bacon?

Both are considered offensive so I am not sure it matters.

 

[strummingram]

Wait a minute. Are you saying those who oppose us might have some legitimate gripes?

Surely that can't be true. We are the beacon on the hill.

Or is that bacon?

That's the one thing many people (mostly on the right) will resist at every length. There's NO WAY that American foreign policy has contributed to these peoples' hatred and acts of revenge. We just want them to have all the benefits of commerce and industry that we enjoy... whether they want it or not. Oh, and we get to plunder their natural resource, too. The instability and total lack of civility that has been borne out of that is immeasurable. Their entire lives, for many generations now, are literally loaded with chaos, living in war zones, being pitted against each other, against our military personnel deployed there, and every other social upheaval you can imagine.

I'm just afraid that too much damage has been done to ever reconcile or end the vengeful nature.

 

[naturalmwa]

They aren't pissed because they're Muslims. They're pissed for all kinds of other reasons. No Islam? They would respond in pretty much the same way using some other ideology as a justification. Even Christianity.

Oh we part ways here. The set of philosophies that make up the Islamic faith lend themselves towards extremism in a very direct and unique way. All the Abrahamic religions condone violence as a means to an end. Islam leads this charge for a few reasons, chief amongst them that Islam doesn't teach its faith was inspired by God through a prophet, but is the direct and final unalterable words of God as relayed perfectly to Muhammad. As a consequence, fundamentalism is more rampant in the faith because questioning the text is to question God.

Islam also teaches that Muhammad's own actions are an example of how to live, so If Mohammed did it, it was holy. Muhammad isn't a peace and love guy like Jesus, he was violent. Of course there would still be bad or angry people in the mideast without that religion. But they wouldn't be supercharged if they were all Sikhs or Buddhists. All political philosophies are not equal, neither are all esoteric or religious philosophies. Islam has many bad ideas contained in its framework.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Getting back to the video for a moment, I would love to hear the other R*za comment on it. Reza Aslan, that is.

 

[unIowa]

Oh we part ways here. The set of philosophies that make up the Islamic faith lend themselves towards extremism in a very direct and unique way. All the Abrahamic religions condone violence as a means to an end. Islam leads this charge for a few reasons, chief amongst them that Islam doesn't teach its faith was inspired by God through a prophet, but is the direct and final unalterable words of God as relayed perfectly to Muhammad. As a consequence, fundamentalism is more rampant in the faith because questioning the text is to question God.

Islam also teaches that Muhammad's own actions are an example of how to live, so If Mohammed did it, it was holy. Muhammad isn't a peace and love guy like Jesus, he was violent. Of course there would still be bad or angry people in the mideast without that religion. But they wouldn't be supercharged if they were all Sikhs or Buddhists. All political philosophies are not equal, neither are all esoteric or religious philosophies. Islam has many bad ideas contained in its framework.

AKA...They would be less likely to blow themselves up with others if not for the faith.

 

[unIowa]

Getting back to the video for a moment, I would love to hear the other R*za comment on it. Reza Aslan, that is.

Two very distinct sides in this debate and both have Muslims in their corner.

 

[naturalmwa]

AKA...They would be less likely to blow themselves up with others if not for the faith.

The Pope touched on this recently and there was a thread about it here. He made the point that fundamentalism is a huge problem that transcends different philosophies and tends to cause problems. Judaism and Christianity have some built in ways of fending off fundamentalism that Islam lacks. Islam's insistence that their text is perfect and unchangeable is one example. Christians used to have this widespread belief before it became common to print the Bible in the vernacular, but the reformation fixed that. And that was a centuries long fight that caused many deaths to accomplish. Christianity didn't have the burden of thinking Jesus spoke latin either. Muslims do think God spoke Arabic and the text is only valid in that one language. If you can't argue with the text, the way you can argue with the Bible, it's going to lend itself towards the fundies.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Oh we part ways here. The set of philosophies that make up the Islamic faith lend themselves towards extremism in a very direct and unique way. All the Abrahamic religions condone violence as a means to an end. Islam leads this charge for a few reasons, chief amongst them that Islam doesn't teach its faith was inspired by God through a prophet, but is the direct and final unalterable words of God as relayed perfectly to Muhammad. As a consequence, fundamentalism is more rampant in the faith because questioning the text is to question God.

Islam also teaches that Muhammad's own actions are an example of how to live, so If Mohammed did it, it was holy. Muhammad isn't a peace and love guy like Jesus, he was violent. Of course there would still be bad or angry people in the mideast without that religion. But they wouldn't be supercharged if they were all Sikhs or Buddhists. All political philosophies are not equal, neither are all esoteric or religious philosophies. Islam has many bad ideas contained in its framework.

I'm no Islamic scholar but I wonder if you aren't going too far with your points.

Are Mohammad's words somehow more divine or revealed or inerrant than those of Jewish and Christian writers in the OT and NT?

We see plenty of differences of opinion among Muslims and among imams and among sects about the proper interpretation of Quranic passages - just as we do about Christian scripture.

I'm guessing that Muslim scholars would say that Mohammad's violence was justified and that a follower's violence would also have to be justified. Just like Christians reason away the teaching of the guy they call their Lord and Savior - in direct contradiction to Jesus's teachings. I mean can you get much clearer than turn the other cheek, or let he who is without sin cast the first stone, or minister to the least of these, and so on?

So . . . is there really much difference? And are you so sure it's settles out in Christianity's favor?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Two very distinct sides in this debate and both have Muslims in their corner.

I'm also thinking that could still be a very effective video - if less inflammatory - if the exaggerations and misdirections were cleaned up.

That's the trouble with gilding the lily. Great for preaching to the choir. Not so much for creating converts.