Is Raheel Raza a racist Islamaphobe OR is she telling us the truth?

[unIowa]

I'm also thinking that could still be a very effective video - if less inflammatory - if the exaggerations and misdirections were cleaned up.

That's the trouble with gilding the lily. Great for preaching to the choir. Not so much for creating converts.

But preaching to the choir creates chaos and chaos is entertaining. I wonder what Trump will say tonight!

 

[naturalmwa]

I'm no Islamic scholar but I wonder if you aren't going too far with your points.

Are Mohammad's words somehow more divine or revealed or inerrant than those of Jewish and Christian writers in the OT and NT?

We see plenty of differences of opinion among Muslims and among imams and among sects about the proper interpretation of Quranic passages - just as we do about Christian scripture.

I'm guessing that Muslim scholars would say that Mohammad's violence was justified and that a follower's violence would also have to be justified. Just like Christians reason away the teaching of the guy they call their Lord and Savior - in direct contradiction to Jesus's teachings. I mean can you get much clearer than turn the other cheek, or let he who is without sin cast the first stone, or minister to the least of these, and so on?

So . . . is there really much difference? And are you so sure it's settles out in Christianity's favor?

Yes, the story of Islam is that the Abrahamic God Yahweh revealed himself 3 times to humanity. First to the the Jews who got it wrong. Then through Jesus who the Christians corrupted and finally through Muhammed. The belief is Muhammed got the direct words relayed through the Angel Gabriel from God perfectly. He wasn't inspired to write in the tradition of the other prophets or biblical writers, the Quran is Yahweh's actual words.

I'm not arguing all Muslims are fundamentalists or that fundamentalism isn't a problem in Christianity. I'm arguing that for some unique reasons, the problem of fundamentalism is far greater in Islam and that the nature of that fundamentalism is inherently violent and oppressive. Those reasons start with the inerrant nature of their text and their idea that Muhammad led an exemplary life. If a Christian decided to live like Jesus, he wouldn't pose a threat to anyone. When a Muslim decides to live like Muhammad, he is a threat to many.

 

[unIowa]

I'm no Islamic scholar but I wonder if you aren't going too far with your points.

Are Mohammad's words somehow more divine or revealed or inerrant than those of Jewish and Christian writers in the OT and NT?

We see plenty of differences of opinion among Muslims and among imams and among sects about the proper interpretation of Quranic passages - just as we do about Christian scripture.

I'm guessing that Muslim scholars would say that Mohammad's violence was justified and that a follower's violence would also have to be justified. Just like Christians reason away the teaching of the guy they call their Lord and Savior - in direct contradiction to Jesus's teachings. I mean can you get much clearer than turn the other cheek, or let he who is without sin cast the first stone, or minister to the least of these, and so on?

So . . . is there really much difference? And are you so sure it's settles out in Christianity's favor?

Lets compare these two statements.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Death to the infidels.

 

[naturalmwa]

Lets compare these two statements.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Death to the infidels.

Are either of those statements from their respective holy books? I don't know the answer, but if not they may be more cultural that gets back to tarheels argument.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

If you have some understanding of the origins of the 3 major monotheistic faiths as natural pointed out you see the reason for the answers given in the Pew poll.
Also of note is levels of education. I would venture a guess that there is more violence in less educated pockets within any religion. The way out of this problem is through educating the masses. The problem is all religion not just Islam.

 

[unIowa]

Are either of those statements from their respective holy books? I don't know the answer, but if not they may be more cultural that gets back to tarheels argument.

Oh I was just trolling with those as they are generalities that are heard/thrown out via various groups. I particularly like the Ben Affleck types of the world that will beat up on those that say "hate the sin not the sinner" but then throw out claims of racism when someone says something honest but disparaging towards Islam.

 

[unIowa]

If you have some understanding of the origins of the 3 major monotheistic faiths as natural pointed out you see the reason for the answers given in the Pew poll.
Also of note is levels of education. I would venture a guess that there is more violence in less educated pockets within any religion. The way out of this problem is through educating the masses. The problem is all religion but Islam does sits atop of crazy mountain at this present time.

FIFY

 

[Packer54]

OK, I watched it.

Lots of good facts (assuming the facts are correct) well mixed with pretty blatant anti-Islam propaganda that most people seem blind to.

It's fun to overlay Sam Harris's concentric circles on our own culture. Not that hard to do.

At the core we have groups like the KKK, Westboro, the abortion clinic bombers, and so on.

Next we have a large portion of American evangelists.

Then we have Republicans and conservatives in general.

Go ahead and get upset by that. But if some video produced by those who want to defend Islam and attack the West, America and Christians laid that out, all the cons in their world would be just as on board as our cons are with this video.

Notice the smooth distortions. Everybody agrees that ISIS is awful. Everybody is opposed to beheadings. But after claiming that there are 200K in ISIS (almost certainly an exaggeration, but that's probably a clever use of the "up to" qualifier), she then piles on Al Qaeda (no particular argument there) and progressively more civil groups until it starts feeling that all Muslims are awful. Several of those she adds on are not violent like ISIS, and do participate in governments. We may not like their aims, but they are more or less peacefully pursuing them. Just like we many not like the aims of political parties here, but they are participating peacefully.

But again, you can make similar overlays for our culture. We see beheadings as barbaric, and suicide bombers as terrible. But we condone drones and cluster bombs. They kill journalists and aid workers, we kill journalists and doctors. We say they target them them because Islamist radicals are evil. We kill our targets because they got in the way, but somehow that's not evil. Not a lot of high road there.

I am an atheist. Islam is too often an awful religion - in doctrine and in practice. So is Christianity. At this point in time, I agree that Islam is worse. But that hasn't always been the case and probably won't always be the case going forward.

Collective punishment and blame and scapegoating are fundamentally terrorist , fascist and racist tactics. There's plenty of that laced into this slick video. There's also enough fact and genuinely scary stuff to support and encourage dangerous over-generalization.

Islamic extremists are more dangerous than our Religious Right. But not by much. We have many fewer bombers and no beheaders (as far as I know), but we certainly have plenty of people who approve of violence toward the "enemy." How close to the line are they? Disrupt our world enough and would there be any difference?

You are full of yourself I will give you that and I will drop you a note the next time the KKK rams 2 planes into the side of a building and kills more people I know. And really, Republicans on the outer circle? My good lord I have no reason to read any more of your comments after that showing of intellectual laziness and baseless reach.

 

[swagsurfer02]

I would consider Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, and Ben Carson Christian fundamentalists however I just don't see any of them stoning homosexuals or atheists...


Crazy thing is Jesus, Abraham, and Billy Graham haven't instructed anyone to do these things either.


Obviously Christians aren't as devout as they would want you to believe.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I'm not arguing all Muslims are fundamentalists or that fundamentalism isn't a problem in Christianity. I'm arguing that for some unique reasons, the problem of fundamentalism is far greater in Islam and that the nature of that fundamentalism is inherently violent and oppressive. Those reasons start with the inerrant nature of their text and their idea that Muhammad led an exemplary life. If a Christian decided to live like Jesus, he wouldn't pose a threat to anyone. When a Muslim decides to live like Muhammad, he is a threat to many.

So . . . what did Mohammad do in his life that would be threatening if someone tried to live that way today?

Not a gotcha question. I know that Mohammad fought some battles against enemies. But most religions battle enemies if they have them.

 

[naturalmwa]

I would consider Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, and Ben Carson Christian fundamentalists however I just don't see any of them stoning homosexuals or atheists...


Crazy thing is Jesus, Abraham, and Billy Graham haven't instructed anyone to do these things either.


Obviously Christians aren't as devout as they would want you to believe.

Ted Cruz pals around with a "kill the gays" pastor, so I'm not going to cut him much slack. But your last point gets to the heart of it. Christians by in large aren't as devout to one particular vision of how to interpret their faith. And that's because there is so much in their holy books that is contradictory and illusionary and even factually wrong. So they don't get wed to a literal interpretation as easily. Islam isn't pulling from centuries of theology written by dozens of people in different times and places. Their story is everything was given for them at once by one man and his one example is perfect and unchanging. It's far easier to be a fundamentalist Muslim. The faith is structured in a way that encourages fundamentalism.

Then you have to figure out what fundamentalism means. In Christianity, if you want to stone the gays or atheists, you have to act in a way that Jesus specifically taught against. If you want to do that in Islam, you simply have to follow the lead of Muhammad. The hero characters of the two faiths are very different. Such that fundamentalism in Islam has a more threatening character.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Lets compare these two statements.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Death to the infidels.

Cherry pick much?

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

Call them Daesh (al-Dawla al-Islamiya al-Iraq al-Sham)...they hate that. They've threatened to "cut the tongues" out of anyone that calls them this. Reason enough to use it.

If they are so simple minded, where a simple word "Angers" them so much....they should be easy to defeat.
Then again.....these are people who kill over a cartoon. So yes.....they are simple minded, easily lead, and emotionally unstable.
So why aren't we piss pounding them into grains of sand?

 

[naturalmwa]

So . . . what did Mohammad do in his life that would be threatening if someone tried to live that way today?

Not a gotcha question. I know that Mohammad fought some battles against enemies. But most religions battle enemies if they have them.

He was a pretty brutal warlord. Sacking cities, condoning raping women, enslaving children, killing non believers after the battle. Now this might all be forgivable if he was just some honored general out securing the land, but he is thought to be a perfect example showing future Muslims how to live through his actions. Most of Islamic teachings actually comes from the Hadith, not the Quran. The Hadith is a collections of sayings and deeds of Muhammad's lifetime that details how he thought God wanted Muslims to behave. The internet is full of historical accounts and even the sympathetic ones will go on about the warlike way he behaved. Its very different from the turn the other cheek philosophy.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Ted Cruz pals around with a "kill the gays" pastor, so I'm not going to cut him much slack. But your last point gets to the heart of it. Christians by in large aren't as devout to one particular vision of how to interpret their faith. And that's because there is so much in their holy books that is contradictory and illusionary and even factually wrong. So they don't get wed to a literal interpretation as easily. Islam isn't pulling from centuries of theology written by dozens of people in different times and places. Their story is everything was given for them at once by one man and his one example is perfect and unchanging. It's far easier to be a fundamentalist Muslim. The faith is structured in a way that encourages fundamentalism.

Then you have to figure out what fundamentalism means. In Christianity, if you want to stone the gays or atheists, you have to act in a way that Jesus specifically taught against. If you want to do that in Islam, you simply have to follow the lead of Muhammad. The hero characters of the two faiths are very different. Such that fundamentalism in Islam has a more threatening character.

But Jesus is the exception. And he is largely ignored by his followers. So where does that leave us?

If people were actually following Jesus's teachings and drawing this distinction between their guy and Mohammad, your position would have substantial merit. But they aren't.

Your argument turns to a big degree on differences in the inerrant nature of the 2 scriptural traditions. But here's the thing: the fundamentalists from BOTH traditions insist their scripture is inerrant.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

He was a pretty brutal warlord. Sacking cities, condoning raping women, enslaving children, killing non believers after the battle. Now this might all be forgivable if he was just some honored general out securing the land, but he is thought to be a perfect example showing future Muslims how to live through his actions. Most of Islamic teachings actually comes from the Hadith, not the Quran. The Hadith is a collections of sayings and deeds of Muhammad's lifetime that details how he thought God wanted Muslims to behave. The internet is full of historical accounts and even the sympathetic ones will go on about the warlike way he behaved. Its very different from the turn the other cheek philosophy.

Clearly Islam is more fun. If you are on the winning side, that is.

I'm becoming puzzled why we aren't the Islamic nation, since we seem to be following Mohammad's lead and totally disregarding Jesus's example.

Shifting gears, I have read numerous places that Islam has a strong socialist streak. Again, embodying Jesus's message better than those who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Can you comment on that?

 

[swagsurfer02]

But Jesus is the exception. And he is largely ignored by his followers. So where does that leave us?

If people were actually following Jesus's teachings and drawing this distinction between their guy and Mohammad, your position would have substantial merit. But they aren't.

Your argument turns to a big degree on differences in the inerrant nature of the 2 scriptural traditions. But here's the thing: the fundamentalists from BOTH traditions insist their scripture is inerrant.

Weird, I always thought Jesus CHRIST was the cornerstone of CHRISTianity. Yet you say he largely goes ignored!

 

[unIowa]

Clearly Islam is more fun. If you are on the winning side, that is.

I'm becoming puzzled why we aren't the Islamic nation, since we seem to be following Mohammad's lead and totally disregarding Jesus's example.

Shifting gears, I have read numerous places that Islam has a strong socialist streak. Again, embodying Jesus's message better than those who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Can you comment on that?

Maybe that is why so many liberals have a soft spot for Islam.

'Screw the gays and women if we can get our socialism!'

 

[naturalmwa]

But Jesus is the exception. And he is largely ignored by his followers. So where does that leave us?

If people were actually following Jesus's teachings and drawing this distinction between their guy and Mohammad, your position would have substantial merit. But they aren't.

Your argument turns to a big degree on differences in the inerrant nature of the 2 scriptural traditions. But here's the thing: the fundamentalists from BOTH traditions insist their scripture is inerrant.

Sure, that's what it means to be fundamentalist. But most Christians can see that a Genesis story or a Noah story isn't real. We can point to the historical record and prove that the Barabbas story, the exodus or numerous other details aren't factually correct. So the Bible takes on a spiritual quality where the teachings aren't meant to be literal truth, but life lessons in story form for the vast majority of the faithful. The fact that there are so many errors and contradictions introduces doubts which help to combat fundamentalism. Islam doesn't have this advantage, which is why I feel it's far easier and far more likely for a person brought up in the faith to turn out fundamentalist.

The fact that many Christians don't act like Jesus doesn't counter my point. My point is if a person were to be devoted to their religion such that they wanted to emulate their respective hero figures, Christianity would present a benign or helpful path that was compatible with the modern world. Islam in contrast would present a violent and oppressive path if one wished to behave like Muhammed did.

 

[naturalmwa]

Clearly Islam is more fun. If you are on the winning side, that is.

I'm becoming puzzled why we aren't the Islamic nation, since we seem to be following Mohammad's lead and totally disregarding Jesus's example.

Shifting gears, I have read numerous places that Islam has a strong socialist streak. Again, embodying Jesus's message better than those who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Can you comment on that?

Charity and helping the poor is one of the 5 pillars of Islam. It might be the only thing about the religion I like. To prove that point all the other 4 pillars have to do with the church structure. Prayer, fasting, testifying to the faith and visiting Mecca. The 5 most important things to Islam and only one has to do with being a good person. The Egyptian derived 10 commandments did better, although there were over 400 in the original Book of the Dead. We seem to be focused on editing as the faiths progress. Paper was expensive.

 

[naturalmwa]

Maybe that is why so many liberals have a soft spot for Islam.

'Screw the gays and women if we can get our socialism!'

Christianity has a strong socialist bent too, so I doubt that's it. The issue is fairly simple IMO. Our founding principle is that it's good to be religious and all religions deserve equal respect. Thats sort tof the basis of the American experiment. For two centuries the peculiarities of non Christian religions didn't matter much, because they weren't here and lived an ocean away. Now Islam is part of our lives and people are trying to reconcile this very basic American value of religious tolerance with the fact that not all religions are the same in actuality.

I'd be cautious about rushing libs on this matter. IMO cons give up that basic value pretty easily even as they run around trying to pass religious defence acts for their own faith. If you come to the conclusion that we must toss Islam under the buss, you have basically admitted the foundations of this American idea are not valid. Thats some heady stuff that deserves some real thought by the religious of every stripe.

 

[unIowa]

Why do percentages matter? Are there "Christians" who commit atrocities in the name of their religion? Yes. Are there people who disavow ALL religion who commit atrocities that make Daesh look like amateurs? Yes. The point - which you seem to have missed - is that these people would invent an excuse to commit atrocities even if Islam never existed. Anyone who thinks they're killing simply because Islam supposedly commands them to do so is an idiot.

I believe these two.

 

[uniFIGHTuniFIGHT]

Call them Daesh (al-Dawla al-Islamiya al-Iraq al-Sham)...they hate that. They've threatened to "cut the tongues" out of anyone that calls them this. Reason enough to use it.

You think they give a shit about what you call them? You're an infidel, not an apostate.