Is the ‘silver lining’ in the CJF injury cloud the elimination of the 4 guard offense?
- Thread starter KcTo
- Start date
Well that surprised me, but I did watch and saw Oturu go to Bench writhing in pain from hyper extended elbow, and who knows how much that contributed to his 5-15 and 1-4 FT line?Minnesota piled up 56 points at home vs Indiana last night. And they lost, again.
Also, how many times does a team record 15 OFF Rebounds and zero 2nd Chance points? That’s probably a near statistical impossibility, yes? That’s some bad luck.
and what’s up with Klobuchar going 1-8 from 3? That’s like Wieskamp coming up 1-8 at CHA, that just doesn’t happen.
The premise is that Iowa is better with 2B. Vs 4G, CJF in game or not , it’s 2B that matters
29-11 with 2B...
Iowa Bigs go 16-23, 45 pts... that seems to be pretty good, yes?
Now can you see why I’ve suggested the silver lining to the CJF injury in bringing the 2B lineup....?
I dont ever see a silver lining when a player gets hurt... we won because we got great play from Bakari and Cordell.....and Ohio State couldnt throw it in the ocean....Ohio State sucks and any lineup wins that game....looking forward to seeing how the big lineup plays Tuesday with out CJ as your theory suggest
by mediocre, do you mean -nationally ranked- mediocre teams?
#25 ranked teams, is that what you mean is ‘mediocre’...?
I’m just trying to understand what you mean by mediocre?
Please share in detail...
Just as stated not very good....Great home court win for the Hawks.....cant wait for Tuesday.....Looking forward to getting our second best player back soon.....
Mediocre Minnesota swept Ohio State and beat both Wisconsin and PSU at home. Going to the barn and coming out with a W is tough
Their is no dominate teams in big ten bunch of above average teams why we rarely see away teams win...Ohio State shoot like shit tonight and helps us get a dub....Joey W needs to stop just looking for his own shot becoming very one dimensional and it really is noticeable with out Fredericks out there....
Ohio State is a mess kids suspended and the Carton suspension.....Lets not think this team isnt in a little turmoil.....
Winning 5 of 6 coming into tonight is what you call “turmoil?”
the Carton Turmoil yes....DJ mental issue is not why hes not with the Buckeyes right now... As I posted earlier this was a ten point win with or without CJ. Buckeyes are def having internal issues and Carton is a big reason. Im thrilled Hawks won as I always am just saying Im not surprised at all.
Let’s not think a team that has won 4 of 5 and climbed into top 25 is any good...
a team that Iowa was up 19 in 1st half, and never really threatened...
Great win for Hawks and yes they Bucks have internal issues with DJ and mental health is the excuse they are using to cover the young mans issues.
Minnesota piled up 56 points at home vs Indiana last night. And they lost, again.
Where to start tonight? The 2B lineup records its 2nd consecutive top Quadrant 1 win, the 2nd best win in the post-jobo era, and -both- wins including impressive wire to wire wins, which included 19 point 1h and late 2nd half leads, against a team like MD (#7 in NET) tOSU is #12 in NET, and we’re both throughly punked by this 2B lineup.
surely there are some of you that are starting to believe..??
A. The 3-headed 2B rotation was simply dominant Kriener and Pemsl were:
7-8, 21pts, 12R, Drew 10 fouls, 3A, 2S, 1B in 44m... Superlative
B. But wait, let’s see what tOSU K Wesson.
4-10, 6R, 5F and 4TO, sounds similar to what MN star Oturu did,
Just superlative defense forcing another top B1G center into a huge under perform, but we expected that,
So in 2 games at CHA, the 2B lineup just jack-wagons 2 teams that are both -ahead- of them in the kenpom ratings, there was no “oh shit” we are behind in last 5 minutes like the previous games (mi, wi, rut, Illinois, all which maximized the 4G).
C. But wait, tOSU is #1 in B1G defense, “this team needs CJF or it is doomed”... well again, a a steady game of getting ball inside, Garza (6) kriener (6) pemsl (4) fouls drawn created FT opportunity, 12-16 2pt FG% (75%), 18FTA. This 3-headed 2B lineup dominated the best B1G defense. (All with out many peoples absolute requirement for success, CJF)
as I’ve indicated, should Fran maximize the bigs, reduce JoeTO, this team could finish 6-0, and you saw why tonight.
There is such power, dominance and efficiency in this 2B rotation, if MD slips up,and goes 2-3....
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KcTo I already thought your OP had some merit, but after watching Iowa dismantle a good OSU team tonight I believe you are on to something.
Unfortunately many here just glance at your post and quickly see it as throwing shade on CJ. This is clearly not the case. With two bigs in the lineup we are taking away a lot of second chance points. Having a second big down low is making the double team of Garza even more ineffective.
You have put a great deal of time and thought into this entire post. I for one have enjoyed the content.
Go Hawks! Let’s go punch Sparty in the nose!
Unfortunately many here just glance at your post and quickly see it as throwing shade on CJ. This is clearly not the case. With two bigs in the lineup we are taking away a lot of second chance points. Having a second big down low is making the double team of Garza even more ineffective.
You have put a great deal of time and thought into this entire post. I for one have enjoyed the content.
Go Hawks! Let’s go punch Sparty in the nose!
yes, thank you for the comment, and for taking time to read thru and get that it is the 4G lineup I abhor, not CJF at all.
I’m looking forward to when all the components come together, and they will, as they are all presently there’s the 3-headed Beast 2B rotation (is a must), the return to form for Wieskamp, the return of a healthy CJF, the defensive rebounding regressing to the mean, none of these are reaches, rather, they are all there
the -only- thing that concerns me is -Fran- and his stubbornness and inflexibility, Iowa could run off 5-6 consecutive wins, and he’d go back to the 4G lineup...that is my concern
I too look forward to iowas punching sparty in their Breslin pie hole...
They gave up allot of offensive rebounds last night.
If they could have kept OSU off the O glass that game would have been over 10 minutes in.
You've stated this a couple times for next year, but Jordan isn't coming off the bench in his Senior year.
Yes and agreed.
We ran the game back after the win, (BTW, this is great fun after a win...) and we looked at those offensive boards given up, many were those missed 3 pointers that can come off long, and several were air banked falling off in weird angles
I think those ‘weird events’ occur more often when teams are wildly missing, but more importantly will certainly regress to the mean.
So I think we can look for that to self correct over the course of ( and winning out in) the remaining B1G schedule
good point though...
wanna bet. Jordan is the type of player that will play when and where to help this team WIN.
with Fran its not about who starts but its more about who in on the floor at the end of the game, for example
1 JT 81 % FT
2 JB 90+ career FT
3 JW 78+ FT
4 CM 78+ FT
5 LG. as a SO shot over 80%
they are all able to shoot the 3 as a group they avg 81.4% from the FTL.
FT shooting will be key
better think real hard before making that kinda bet on what Jordan will do or won't do.
try looking at the picture and not just a very small corner.
another thing to consider is CJ has not been healthy for the whole season so it could be that Jordan could start at the 2 when/if CJ gets hurt, as neither FR Ulis or Perkins will start. nor will they be put into a position of starting barring major injuries.
but keep up the good fight on wanting players to leave the team so Fran can never succeed and that way you can holler about Fran needs to go. _________ insert reason. to make you feel better.
Yes. I'll bet. If JT starts over Bohannon next year I'll leave this board forever (no new user names). If Jordan starts, you do the same.
Deal????
Okay, I've read through the thread and some of you are talking past each other as if CJF playing and starting two bigs is an either/or proposition. It's pretty clear that if CJ hadn't gotten hurt, Fran would not have started Kreiner alongside Garza and used Bakari or Pemsl as much as he has. The thing is, Kreiner has started playing better than he had in weeks, Cordell is playing better than he has all year, and Bakari has back-to-back good games.
Iowa had been getting killed on the glass against IU and Purdue and even in some of their wins in that time period. Having Kreiner and Pemsl boxing out and rebounding has been huge and suggests Iowa may very well be better off running a two-big rotation rather than 4-guard rotation.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that CJF shouldn't be one of the guards when Iowa's going with two bigs. In fact, a Connor, Weiskamp, CJF guard lineup with Garza and Kreiner on the floor looks pretty damn good. And then using Pemsl to sub for either Garza or Kreiner in first and second halves (or due to foul trouble) allows two-big alignment to remain with Joe T. and Bakari spelling CJF, Connor, and Weiskamp at different points in the game, allowing Fran to give more minutes to whoever has the hot hand--switching Connor to Weiskamps's wing spot, perhaps, with Bakari running point and CJF as the 2, or whatever other combinations.
And it's not like Iowa can't use some four guard alignments, just not all game long any more unless there are matchup issues with other teams' personnel. But Pemsl has been killing it getting rebounds and blockouts which has helped Iowa get stops after several games where offensive rebounds were killing them.
Seems to me that OP's original points were very worthwhile, but I'm trying to add some depth to show that CJF obviously is still a key component on this team. Bottom line is that Iowa is much better off with Bakari and Pemsl having found their confidence while CJF has been able to heal and if he comes back and is able to contribute (but not as many minutes because of injury OR just to keep him fresh so his shot is more effective throughout games) Iowa will be better than they would have been had the two-big alignments not been used and Pemsl and Bakari not been given the minutes to prove they can contribute much more than they had been.
They've responded and as long as they are playing well the two-big alignment makes a lot of sense and when CJF gets back Iowa can still have two marksmen from outside again in Weezy and CJF for portions of the game. There's just so many more lineup options that can be effective now and Iowa should really benefit from that in the postseason.
It's just great news that Iowa can afford to ease CJF back into the lineup while still being competitive without him in the lineup. The interior defense has been so much better with two bigs on the floor which means that CJF is not necessarily a bad defender, just that it helps having two bigs down low to improve lane defense and rebounding. CJF is a fine perimeter defender, but Pemsl and Kreiner add significantly to Iowa's interior D and that's where Iowa had been getting killed in early February. Against a team like Illinois, maybe Iowa will play a four-guard lineup a bit more (assuming CJF is healthy enough to give enough effective minutes by then), but against teams like Indiana, Purdue, Ohio State, and a few others, two bigs is better than one.
Iowa had been getting killed on the glass against IU and Purdue and even in some of their wins in that time period. Having Kreiner and Pemsl boxing out and rebounding has been huge and suggests Iowa may very well be better off running a two-big rotation rather than 4-guard rotation.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that CJF shouldn't be one of the guards when Iowa's going with two bigs. In fact, a Connor, Weiskamp, CJF guard lineup with Garza and Kreiner on the floor looks pretty damn good. And then using Pemsl to sub for either Garza or Kreiner in first and second halves (or due to foul trouble) allows two-big alignment to remain with Joe T. and Bakari spelling CJF, Connor, and Weiskamp at different points in the game, allowing Fran to give more minutes to whoever has the hot hand--switching Connor to Weiskamps's wing spot, perhaps, with Bakari running point and CJF as the 2, or whatever other combinations.
And it's not like Iowa can't use some four guard alignments, just not all game long any more unless there are matchup issues with other teams' personnel. But Pemsl has been killing it getting rebounds and blockouts which has helped Iowa get stops after several games where offensive rebounds were killing them.
Seems to me that OP's original points were very worthwhile, but I'm trying to add some depth to show that CJF obviously is still a key component on this team. Bottom line is that Iowa is much better off with Bakari and Pemsl having found their confidence while CJF has been able to heal and if he comes back and is able to contribute (but not as many minutes because of injury OR just to keep him fresh so his shot is more effective throughout games) Iowa will be better than they would have been had the two-big alignments not been used and Pemsl and Bakari not been given the minutes to prove they can contribute much more than they had been.
They've responded and as long as they are playing well the two-big alignment makes a lot of sense and when CJF gets back Iowa can still have two marksmen from outside again in Weezy and CJF for portions of the game. There's just so many more lineup options that can be effective now and Iowa should really benefit from that in the postseason.
It's just great news that Iowa can afford to ease CJF back into the lineup while still being competitive without him in the lineup. The interior defense has been so much better with two bigs on the floor which means that CJF is not necessarily a bad defender, just that it helps having two bigs down low to improve lane defense and rebounding. CJF is a fine perimeter defender, but Pemsl and Kreiner add significantly to Iowa's interior D and that's where Iowa had been getting killed in early February. Against a team like Illinois, maybe Iowa will play a four-guard lineup a bit more (assuming CJF is healthy enough to give enough effective minutes by then), but against teams like Indiana, Purdue, Ohio State, and a few others, two bigs is better than one.
Nice reply, so many points of consensus. thank you for investing your time to read the past posts, understand and reply to those posts as that’s a very ‘old school’ process, and I appreciate that.
As a point of some considerable electronic dialogue has been the CJF injury and why I suggested that there is a blessing in disguise, but in know way suggested that Iowa was better off with out him, but with out him forced Fran into a corner of starting Kriener (and we’ve seen 2 of Iowa’s best wins).
2Bigs with CJF is clearly the best lineup, as you point out, and I look forward to seeing it as well.
Tell me, what do you expect at tMSU?
There was some talk about cj possibly playing Thursday night. Does this mean we should be able to expect him in East Lansing.
Guys, I really don’t think it matters when CJF gets back, as this team is sooo much better configured for success with the 3 big rotation absolutely dominating:
Kriener-pemsl 2 game avg 18.5 pts, 10 R, 3 blocks, 14-26 shooting, and 8 fouls drawn, collecting they draw more fouls than Garza and is a big reason Kaleb Wesson was in foul trouble and not on the court.
CJF will make this a better team, but that does not mean this team as configured needs him to be successful.
That’s what Lickliter said
Kcto
I don’t think we are saying that, but I’m looking forward to the next 5 games with renewed interest, because scoring prevention wins games
McCAFFERY: Yeah, any time you are playing a ranked team and a quality team like Ohio State, you want to get off to a good start at home. It starts with the defense. As much as we got up 18-3, it was a result of our defensive intensity and execution. As I have said to you guys many times, execution in critical on defense too, not just offense.
This is also what Fran says....
Do you honestly think Iowa can count on that kind of production from Pemsl and Evelyn again?
Tousaint hitting 2 3s?
C'mon man. You're the only one here who doesn't think CJ is crucial.
The win against Maryland was a fluke terrible performance by them.
Minnesota is an average team that didn't shoot from the outside well that night.
And against OSU iowa got big contributions from 3 guys who have not normally been productive in that way.
CJ is our best shooter and second best perimeter defender. To act like that's not important is foolish IMO.
My premise is Kriener and Pemsl, not BK and Pemsl, so no, I do not think And am not saying that BK will produce at that level every night, and no I don’t think JoeTO can be counted on for 3pt shooting.
Do I think Kriener and Pemsl can add 18 and 10 every game, if given 40m, yes, I do, and I think that’s what we are going to see,
I’m not saying that CJF is not good, or doesn’t help this team, I’m not ever saying that.
what I am saying is:
A. the the 2B lineup, with out CJF, is far > the 4G lineup with CJF
B. the 2B lineup with CJF is far > than the 2B is with out CJF.
C. I don’t think CJF is as ‘crucial’ as most.
—we’ve seen wins with out CJF are the best IA has, MD, tOSU, @MN.
—Garza= crucial Wieskamp next most crucial. I don’t see where CJF is crucial. He a great shooter, and valuable , but not as we as crucial like when Garza and Wieskamp are out of game, they are crucial
I consider those games as evidence, and you’ll see it again at tMSU, and when Iowa wins, will you try consider this more evidence?
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My guess on MSU is that Iowa will have to use a variety of personnel combinations depending on how MSU plays and who gets hot for them. I haven't seen a ton of MSU games this year, but if they're like other MSU teams, Iowa will need two bigs to limit MSU's rebounding--that's usually where MSU kills Iowa.
Iowa's gonna have to throw a lot of guards at Cassius Winston because he's a handful. Having CJF back for that game would be very good, because Joe T. will probably get into foul trouble trying to guard him and Bakari and Connor will have their hands full trying to contain him. Having CJF as an extra body for extra minutes on the perimeter would definitely help against Cassius, but that's more in terms of having more minutes from the bench to limit CW. That can still happen within the two-big alignment.
Foul trouble may determine the types of alignments Iowa will have to use against MSU, too. Having an 8-man rotation is obviously better than a 7-man rotation. And to the poster worried Pemsl and Bakari can't keep contributing like they have been, if they don't then Iowa probably won't be successful the rest of the year even if CJF comes back healthy. Iowa needs all eight guys to be contributing something each game because of the quality of the competition they'll be facing from this point forward in the regular season, the BTT, and the NCAAs.
Iowa's gonna have to throw a lot of guards at Cassius Winston because he's a handful. Having CJF back for that game would be very good, because Joe T. will probably get into foul trouble trying to guard him and Bakari and Connor will have their hands full trying to contain him. Having CJF as an extra body for extra minutes on the perimeter would definitely help against Cassius, but that's more in terms of having more minutes from the bench to limit CW. That can still happen within the two-big alignment.
Foul trouble may determine the types of alignments Iowa will have to use against MSU, too. Having an 8-man rotation is obviously better than a 7-man rotation. And to the poster worried Pemsl and Bakari can't keep contributing like they have been, if they don't then Iowa probably won't be successful the rest of the year even if CJF comes back healthy. Iowa needs all eight guys to be contributing something each game because of the quality of the competition they'll be facing from this point forward in the regular season, the BTT, and the NCAAs.
its a bet
now how many are going to join in on the bet?
the bet I should have started was this
Iowa makes the NCAAT when posters were so sure they weren't. would leave never to return or if they don't I leave.
but if you notice no new Name, just added a couple 2's to the old one as the original was listed as taken.
