Is there a shortage

[minnhawkeye]

of officals to hire?
I read somewhere old brain can't remember which site or thread that some of the fans where in a cafe after the big tens and Mike Allen came in and sat across from them.
So they had a conversation with him and he agreed with them and he told them that he has lecutured the officals many times to call more stalling. So are his hands kinda tied because of shortage of officals?
Know I would not what the job lol but darn has to be a reason.
I always liked Mike when he reffed in his days he was always makeing them wrestle.

 

[Vallholl]

I make calls all the time!

I don't know all the rules, but I'll figure it out.

(Maybe hawkcrazy can sit near the mat and yell stuff at me.)

 

[HAMNEGGS]

Yes there is a shortage. When was the last time you saw some one under 40 years old in the stripes? Even at the HS level. It takes years to get good enough to move up. At the local/regional level/national level it's also kind of like a closed club. My wife ref'ed for years at USAW events, state, regions and nationals for Kids through Cadets. Even did the HS gig for a while. Wanted to give back. Not saying she was the greatest, but put her heart in it. Eventually hit the 'ceiling' and quit. Kind of sad.

 

[Jar-hawk]

Ironside said during one of his broadcasts that Allen was having trouble getting officials, that there was a real shortage.

 

[Huck]

I have to disagree on the shortage situation. I won't pretend to know all the workings but it seems to me there is "good old boys" club going on. As someone stated, for whatever reason, younger or different guys don't even get a chance at the "big time".
Think for a second on how many officials there are across the United States. There is no way with as many good hs officials there are that many of them could not be doing college matches. Are you telling me if the NCAA or Mike Allen were to talk to the State HS Associations and get their recommendations that those officials are going to turn down the chance to officiate at the college level? Guys simply have a hard time getting their shot at it.

I have a college buddy that has been doing NCAA stuff. He actually was the asst. in the Rutgers dual this year. I talk to him every year at the NCAA's and he tells me every year that he's hoping to get his shot at the big show...still hasn't happened. He's in his lower 40's, now sure how long he's been doing NCAA stuff but it's been awhile.

One of our state's best hs officials also does a lot of NCAA stuff. I talked to him this year at a tournament and he told me a story of how he made a call a big time coach didn't like and next thing you know his "assignments" changed. This gentleman is one hell of an official guys but it's just like anything else....you piss the wrong person off and it can change your career. Now that might be a little "dramatic" but there's no doubt it can have a big effect on your officiating assignments. All it takes is making a coach mad and him calling up Mr. Allen. To me this is why so many officials are afraid to call stalling the way they should. It boils down to them not want to take a chance and putting their neck on the line. Those that have "made it" are in a pretty good situation and don't want to blow it. I'm sure most already know this and understand it, the question becomes how do you fix it? What are the checks and balances in the situation? I'm sure the coaches all rate officials which to me really shouldn't be taken into deep consideration for assignments. To me, some sort of "committee" should be rating officials from an unbiased point of view.

Bottom line IMHO, officials are afraid to make the proper calls (mainly stalling) because it will have a direct affect on their pocketbooks/status. Until that fear is eliminated, same old, same old.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Originally posted by Huck:
I have to disagree on the shortage situation. I won't pretend to know all the workings but it seems to me there is "good old boys" club going on. As someone stated, for whatever reason, younger or different guys don't even get a chance at the "big time".
Think for a second on how many officials there are across the United States. There is no way with as many good hs officials there are that many of them could not be doing college matches. Are you telling me if the NCAA or Mike Allen were to talk to the State HS Associations and get their recommendations that those officials are going to turn down the chance to officiate at the college level? Guys simply have a hard time getting their shot at it.

I have a college buddy that has been doing NCAA stuff. He actually was the asst. in the Rutgers dual this year. I talk to him every year at the NCAA's and he tells me every year that he's hoping to get his shot at the big show...still hasn't happened. He's in his lower 40's, now sure how long he's been doing NCAA stuff but it's been awhile.

One of our state's best hs officials also does a lot of NCAA stuff. I talked to him this year at a tournament and he told me a story of how he made a call a big time coach didn't like and next thing you know his "assignments" changed. This gentleman is one hell of an official guys but it's just like anything else....you piss the wrong person off and it can change your career. Now that might be a little "dramatic" but there's no doubt it can have a big effect on your officiating assignments. All it takes is making a coach mad and him calling up Mr. Allen. To me this is why so many officials are afraid to call stalling the way they should. It boils down to them not want to take a chance and putting their neck on the line. Those that have "made it" are in a pretty good situation and don't want to blow it. I'm sure most already know this and understand it, the question becomes how do you fix it? What are the checks and balances in the situation? I'm sure the coaches all rate officials which to me really shouldn't be taken into deep consideration for assignments. To me, some sort of "committee" should be rating officials from an unbiased point of view.

Bottom line IMHO, officials are afraid to make the proper calls (mainly stalling) because it will have a direct affect on their pocketbooks/status. Until that fear is eliminated, same old, same old.

That's sickening to hear of that kind of stuff going on. Guess the big time coach didn't have a mirror to see how big of a crybaby and bully he had become. Makes you wonder about people not having any morals. Crazy World these days.

 

[sloehawk]

Originally posted by Huck:
I have to disagree on the shortage situation. I won't pretend to know all the workings but it seems to me there is "good old boys" club going on. As someone stated, for whatever reason, younger or different guys don't even get a chance at the "big time".
Think for a second on how many officials there are across the United States. There is no way with as many good hs officials there are that many of them could not be doing college matches. Are you telling me if the NCAA or Mike Allen were to talk to the State HS Associations and get their recommendations that those officials are going to turn down the chance to officiate at the college level? Guys simply have a hard time getting their shot at it.

I have a college buddy that has been doing NCAA stuff. He actually was the asst. in the Rutgers dual this year. I talk to him every year at the NCAA's and he tells me every year that he's hoping to get his shot at the big show...still hasn't happened. He's in his lower 40's, now sure how long he's been doing NCAA stuff but it's been awhile.

One of our state's best hs officials also does a lot of NCAA stuff. I talked to him this year at a tournament and he told me a story of how he made a call a big time coach didn't like and next thing you know his "assignments" changed. This gentleman is one hell of an official guys but it's just like anything else....you piss the wrong person off and it can change your career. Now that might be a little "dramatic" but there's no doubt it can have a big effect on your officiating assignments. All it takes is making a coach mad and him calling up Mr. Allen. To me this is why so many officials are afraid to call stalling the way they should. It boils down to them not want to take a chance and putting their neck on the line. Those that have "made it" are in a pretty good situation and don't want to blow it. I'm sure most already know this and understand it, the question becomes how do you fix it? What are the checks and balances in the situation? I'm sure the coaches all rate officials which to me really shouldn't be taken into deep consideration for assignments. To me, some sort of "committee" should be rating officials from an unbiased point of view.

Bottom line IMHO, officials are afraid to make the proper calls (mainly stalling) because it will have a direct affect on their pocketbooks/status. Until that fear is eliminated, same old, same old.

That is a great perspective there Sir. You explained it very well.

FWIW, I do think that while Mike Allen was active, he was definitely one of those guys that made sure the match was moving along with some action. He was as good as it got, IMO.

 

[rafferty06]

At one time I thought the home school hired the refs. If this is still the practice than I can see how a ref is influenced by the coaches. This should be done by the BIG10 and then at the end of the year the athletic dept. should have some comments they can make but no way should they have any say who refs. The BIG10 needs someone like Mike Allen to be ahead of this and maybe he is. The main problem with wrestling is not making the proper stalling calls.

 

[86_90]

Originally posted by Huck:
I have to disagree on the shortage situation. I won't pretend to know all the workings but it seems to me there is "good old boys" club going on. As someone stated, for whatever reason, younger or different guys don't even get a chance at the "big time".
Think for a second on how many officials there are across the United States. There is no way with as many good hs officials there are that many of them could not be doing college matches. Are you telling me if the NCAA or Mike Allen were to talk to the State HS Associations and get their recommendations that those officials are going to turn down the chance to officiate at the college level? Guys simply have a hard time getting their shot at it.

I have a college buddy that has been doing NCAA stuff. He actually was the asst. in the Rutgers dual this year. I talk to him every year at the NCAA's and he tells me every year that he's hoping to get his shot at the big show...still hasn't happened. He's in his lower 40's, now sure how long he's been doing NCAA stuff but it's been awhile.

One of our state's best hs officials also does a lot of NCAA stuff. I talked to him this year at a tournament and he told me a story of how he made a call a big time coach didn't like and next thing you know his "assignments" changed. This gentleman is one hell of an official guys but it's just like anything else....you piss the wrong person off and it can change your career. Now that might be a little "dramatic" but there's no doubt it can have a big effect on your officiating assignments. All it takes is making a coach mad and him calling up Mr. Allen. To me this is why so many officials are afraid to call stalling the way they should. It boils down to them not want to take a chance and putting their neck on the line. Those that have "made it" are in a pretty good situation and don't want to blow it. I'm sure most already know this and understand it, the question becomes how do you fix it? What are the checks and balances in the situation? I'm sure the coaches all rate officials which to me really shouldn't be taken into deep consideration for assignments. To me, some sort of "committee" should be rating officials from an unbiased point of view.

Bottom line IMHO, officials are afraid to make the proper calls (mainly stalling) because it will have a direct affect on their pocketbooks/status. Until that fear is eliminated, same old, same old.

D1 Coaches need to better understand the situation as it now stands.

The officials are apparently paralyzed by fear. The ADs need to understand fans want action above all else and figure out a system that allows the officials to make judgement calls without the fear that these relatively famous coaches will have them shelved. The ADs can set up a system where coaches have little influence as far as who is officiating while still getting the best officials on the mat come tourny time. This is needed desperately.

If you can get an atmosphere where officials are actively about promoting action first, then I think it goes along way in helping the end product on the mat which is what the sport and the ADs want/need. If an official is worried about his job, based on the judgement calls he makes, this is a recipe for what we currently see on the mat much of the time--nothing.

 

[86_90]

D1 Coaches need to better understand the situation as it now stands.

The officials are apparently paralyzed by fear. The ADs need to understand fans want action above all else and figure out a system that allows the officials to make judgement calls without the fear that these relatively famous coaches will have them shelved. The ADs can set up a system where coaches have little influence as far as who is officiating while still getting the best officials on the mat come tourny time. This is needed desperately.

If you can get an atmosphere where officials are actively about promoting action first, then I think it goes along way in helping the end product on the mat which is what the sport and the ADs want/need. If an official is worried about his job, based on the judgement calls he makes, this is a recipe for what we currently see on the mat much of the time--nothing.

I think overall, the on mat product has been better this year so far. The big question others have already raised: Will the officials swallow their whistles at Big10s and the NCAA?

 

[SPOONER]

I have to disagree on the shortage situation. I won't pretend to know all the workings but it seems to me there is "good old boys" club going on. As someone stated, for whatever reason, younger or different guys don't even get a chance at the "big time".
Think for a second on how many officials there are across the United States. There is no way with as many good hs officials there are that many of them could not be doing college matches. Are you telling me if the NCAA or Mike Allen were to talk to the State HS Associations and get their recommendations that those officials are going to turn down the chance to officiate at the college level? Guys simply have a hard time getting their shot at it.

I have a college buddy that has been doing NCAA stuff. He actually was the asst. in the Rutgers dual this year. I talk to him every year at the NCAA's and he tells me every year that he's hoping to get his shot at the big show...still hasn't happened. He's in his lower 40's, now sure how long he's been doing NCAA stuff but it's been awhile.

One of our state's best hs officials also does a lot of NCAA stuff. I talked to him this year at a tournament and he told me a story of how he made a call a big time coach didn't like and next thing you know his "assignments" changed. This gentleman is one hell of an official guys but it's just like anything else....you piss the wrong person off and it can change your career. Now that might be a little "dramatic" but there's no doubt it can have a big effect on your officiating assignments. All it takes is making a coach mad and him calling up Mr. Allen. To me this is why so many officials are afraid to call stalling the way they should. It boils down to them not want to take a chance and putting their neck on the line. Those that have "made it" are in a pretty good situation and don't want to blow it. I'm sure most already know this and understand it, the question becomes how do you fix it? What are the checks and balances in the situation? I'm sure the coaches all rate officials which to me really shouldn't be taken into deep consideration for assignments. To me, some sort of "committee" should be rating officials from an unbiased point of view.

Bottom line IMHO, officials are afraid to make the proper calls (mainly stalling) because it will have a direct affect on their pocketbooks/status. Until that fear is eliminated, same old, same old.

Though I do think there is somewhat of a shortage, this post nails it. I know a few younger officials and the "good ole boys network" is a huge barrier for these guys.

 

[ad1986]

I agree 86-90. I think the amount of neutral stalling due to the new OOB rule in college has fallen off a cliff this year.
I also think the new neutral stalling rule is being called just fine by the top officials (at least the top 20 that we will see at nationals. There is some inconsistency in calls by officials below the top 20 or so.

Historically refs have swallowed their whistles at Nationals. I don't think that will happen this year.

I would like to see more consistency in stalling calls is on the mat, particularly in a legs situation. IMO if the top man has legs in ( double legs in and stretching, that is not turning) and never gets off the hips he is stalling.

The 5 second count on moves like dropping below the butt or the side head lock to ride has pretty much been fixed with the count rule.

 

[FineMaterial]

I am thinking about getting involved. But my experience in volleyball was really poor. I was nationally and NCAA certified, and I think the best ref in the area, having been a good player myself. The local D3 colleges were the best gigs around. The local assigner of the gigs was a (very) old retired guy who decided that he needed to actually try and make a living at it. And he was terrible. The local colleges stopped using the local officials because of it.

 

[Chopper25]

Yes there is a shortage. When was the last time you saw some one under 40 years old in the stripes? Even at the HS level. It takes years to get good enough to move up. At the local/regional level/national level it's also kind of like a closed club. My wife ref'ed for years at USAW events, state, regions and nationals for Kids through Cadets. Even did the HS gig for a while. Wanted to give back. Not saying she was the greatest, but put her heart in it. Eventually hit the 'ceiling' and quit. Kind of sad.

In my area there are very very good young officials at the high school level. The problem is the officials have an association and it seems almost like a seniority based Union. Point is there is some very good young officials around who don't even get to officiate the Iowa State tournament. The IAHSAA would rather have 50+ Year old officials who in most cases are way past there prime instead of the young 30 somethings. Travis Pike from the northern part of the state is a fairly young guy and IS the best official in Iowa IMO.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Interesting thread...I will once again say that as it relates to stalling...I think the answer has to come in the form of rule changes that reward the aggressor and just hoping that the refs are going to call it more often and solve the problem that way is wishful thinking, at best.

I agree that a couple of rule changes in effect now have helped reduce the "snooze factor" in many matches.

 

[artradley]

In my area there are very very good young officials at the high school level. The problem is the officials have an association and it seems almost like a seniority based Union. Point is there is some very good young officials around who don't even get to officiate the Iowa State tournament. The IAHSAA would rather have 50+ Year old officials who in most cases are way past there prime instead of the young 30 somethings. Travis Pike from the northern part of the state is a fairly young guy and IS the best official in Iowa IMO.

I started officiating a couple of years ago, and I can testify that at least in my state it was definitely an "old boys" club. They were actually pretty upfront about it. Also, the pay is really screwed up. I made a lot more money officiating kids meets that officiating high school meets. A lot of damn good officials figured they were giving back a little more, and making more money, spending Saturday afternoons officiating 10-year-olds rather than take all the crap that goes with a high school meet.

 

[SPOONER]

In my area there are very very good young officials at the high school level. The problem is the officials have an association and it seems almost like a seniority based Union. Point is there is some very good young officials around who don't even get to officiate the Iowa State tournament. The IAHSAA would rather have 50+ Year old officials who in most cases are way past there prime instead of the young 30 somethings. Travis Pike from the northern part of the state is a fairly young guy and IS the best official in Iowa IMO.

This describes one of the roadblocks. There are officials at state that don't do any matches all season. It frequently happens at state that an official is unable to react quick enough and it is costly. To say nothing about not being able to enforce the rules quickly because they are not practicing it.

 

[Chopper25]

This describes one of the roadblocks. There are officials at state that don't do any matches all season. It frequently happens at state that an official is unable to react quick enough and it is costly. To say nothing about not being able to enforce the rules quickly because they are not practicing it.

agree completely. Especially the way chain wrestling and scrambling has evolved those good old boys can't keep up.

 

[Chopper25]

I started officiating a couple of years ago, and I can testify that at least in my state it was definitely an "old boys" club. They were actually pretty upfront about it. Also, the pay is really screwed up. I made a lot more money officiating kids meets that officiating high school meets. A lot of damn good officials figured they were giving back a little more, and making more money, spending Saturday afternoons officiating 10-year-olds rather than take all the crap that goes with a high school meet.

Sounds like Iowa.