Yes, I'm aware. I'm also aware that they're not the first and won't be the last.
Mostly geography and historical context. Feel free to parse the definitions of anything you like.
The theme of what I'm saying won't change.
Israeli "Surprise" Against Iran
- Thread starter What Would Jesus Do?
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Yes, I'm aware. I'm also aware that they're not the first and won't be the last.
Mostly geography and historical context. Feel free to parse the definitions of anything you like.
The theme of what I'm saying won't change.
I have no illusions of trying to change your opinion, just attempting to understand the hoops you’ve jumped through to arrive at it.
The only hoop I guess would be recognizing which nation in the region possess the most power and how effective these wars have been in the past. Maybe it's just easier to believe that this is the time violence will placate the area?
No. Settlements are how most recent wars have been won. Not in history.
I'd be fine with the total annihilation of Hamas. You conflate Hamas with Gazans. Hamas needs to surrender. If they did there would not need to be annihilation. They cannot win by any means other than allowing the citizens of Gaza to be in harms way, shielding them, and getting killed in. Numbers large enough to shock the conscience of the west. Hamas need to enter the battlefield, away from civilians, and may the best man win. They are cowards. They are evil and wish for the destruction of Israel by any means.
I'm waiting for someone to show me a single treaty attempt at a 2 state solution that was rebuffed by Israel and accepted by 'Palestinians'.
So if you think Isreal has the most power (which I agree with) why in the world would the Hamas or Hezbollah screw with them, unless of course you believe Israel is the aggressor here?
70% of those killed in Gaza are women and children. Israel has bombed schools, hospitals, mosques, ancient Christian churches, residential buildings, refugee camps. 65 American doctors have signed off on a letter to Biden detailing how they have treated preteen kids with gunshot wounds to the head or chest. This is a genocide. There is no denying. Israel might as well bring in the gas chambers and ovens at this point.
The Palestinian people have long been oppressed well before Oct 7.
I’ve already asked this question in this thread but didn’t get an answer. Why can Arab folks live in Israel but there are portions of Gaza where Israelis will be killed at for entering?
To counter you point you think you’re making, have the Israelis been oppressed before October 7th?
The last significant step toward peace was the realignment of the West Bank and dismantling of settlements. 70 percent of Israelis balked when it was made public:
Polls: 70 percent oppose realignment
Surveys conducted for Avigdor Lieberman’s Israel Our Home party show that some 70 percent of Israelis who backed last summer’s Gaza disengagement object to West Bank withdrawal plan; only small percentage of respondents said they consider Peretz a success as defense minister
At the end of the day, both sides need to be okay with concessions for peace, but neither is.
First off, a poll isn't policy nor is it a rejection of a referendum to approve a treaty. Israel's leaders have proposed multiple negotiated 2 state solutions since 1947 and Palestinian leaders have rejected all of them. Most without a counter proposal.The last significant step toward peace was the realignment of the West Bank and dismantling of settlements. 70 percent of Israelis balked when it was made public:
Polls: 70 percent oppose realignment
Surveys conducted for Avigdor Lieberman’s Israel Our Home party show that some 70 percent of Israelis who backed last summer’s Gaza disengagement object to West Bank withdrawal plan; only small percentage of respondents said they consider Peretz a success as defense ministerwww.ynetnews.com
At the end of the day, both sides need to be okay with concessions for peace, but neither is.
Also from your source today
Hamas' chilling blueprint: Tel Aviv skyscrapers targeted for 9/11-style attack
Sinwar reportedly requested hundreds of millions from Iran and training for 12,000 operatives, claiming it would enable them to destroy Israel within two years; documents revealed in Washington Post also outline multi-front attack scenarios
Huh? Gaza was walled off from Israel. Israel controlled everything coming and going from Gaza. They even counted calories for food shipments.
First off Israel had no right to exist in the first place. Of course they rejected stolen land.First off, a poll isn't policy nor is it a rejection of a referendum to approve a treaty. Israel's leaders have proposed multiple negotiated 2 state solutions since 1947 and Palestinian leaders have rejected all of them. Most without a counter proposal.
Also from your source today
Hamas' chilling blueprint: Tel Aviv skyscrapers targeted for 9/11-style attack
Sinwar reportedly requested hundreds of millions from Iran and training for 12,000 operatives, claiming it would enable them to destroy Israel within two years; documents revealed in Washington Post also outline multi-front attack scenarios
They're willing to die to recruit the next generation of fighters. The whole area is filled with people that feel, and have compelling arguments, the aggression has started at a million different points in history. What I think has no bearing on whether or not Israel can kill their way to a peaceful existence.
Are you confused? My question is why are their Arab people living in Israel but it can’t be the other way around? That’s basically every Arab country….. this isn’t difficult and it isn’t some secret.
Edit: I’m done with this conversation. Hopefully the Palestinian people rise up against their government and put someone in who will take care of their people.
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Yup, people willing to strap bombs onto their children to “even” the score. It’s a sickness
Edit: I don’t care enough about this discussion. You can support Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. I will continue to support Israel.
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It’s not. The mental gymnastics some democrats go through when it comes to Islam is amazing.
The only solution in the Middle East is for women to be equals. Why are you ok with the total subjugation of half their people?
I’m not ok with people dying but again what’s the solution?
To act like Israel has the power is child logic.
"...the best way to not get prosecuted [for war crimes] is to win...."
Is this what passes for morality in the 21st century?
Sort of like the best way to get away with a regular crime is to not get caught.
Each of those formulations is, at best, amoral about the the harm - and, at worst, permissive about the crimes.
Surely we can do better. Surely we should do better.
Lot's of Arabs and Jews lived peacefully - often alongside each other - in Mandate Palestine.
Not all.
Which one? "Win?"
That's easy. One side surrenders to the other under terms established substantially by the victor.
Israel has been shooting fish in a barrel for the last year. The fish have been in that barrel for decades, and have been shot at, off and on, for decades - something Israel has called "mowing the grass."
Now normally, if a populace was being slaughtered like that, most would try to get away. But not this time. Why not?
Because Israel won't allow it.
Why won't they allow it?
Seems obvious to me that Israel knows it has created hundreds of thousands, if not more, implacable foes. How could it be otherwise, when nearly every Palestinian in Gaza has had some family member or friend - often times many family members and friends - slaughtered?
I'm open to other interpretations or explanations. What have you got?
That's what we say. Ever wonder what they say? Do you think they would agree that it's "due to their ethnicity." Or might they say it's due to years of oppression? Or something else that we might be more sympathetic to?
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Then you are a fool - because actual toddlers - not strawmen, are being killed every day.
You think Israel won't allow the Palestinians to leave?
Their problem is nobody wants to take them. The hospitality of the ummah may be greatly exaggerated.
https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d
Israel assures US it won't strike Iranian nuclear or oil sites, US officials say
MATTHEW LEE
Updated October 15, 2024 at 1:31 PM
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration believes it has won assurances from Israel that it will not hit Iranian nuclear or oil sites as it looks to strike back following Iran's missile barrage earlier this month, two U.S. officials said Tuesday.
The administration also believes that sending a U.S. Terminal High Altitude Area Defense battery to Israel and roughly 100 soldiers to operate it has eased some of Israel’s concerns about possible Iranian retaliation and general security issues.
The Pentagon on Sunday announced the THAAD deployment to help bolster Israel’s air defenses following Iran’s ballistic missile attacks on Israel in April and October, saying it was authorized at the direction of President Joe Biden.
However, the U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss private diplomatic discussions, cautioned that the assurance is not ironclad and that circumstances could change. The officials also noted that Israel’s track record on fulfilling assurances in the past is mixed and has often reflected domestic Israeli politics that have upended Washington’s expectations.
The most recent example of that was last month when U.S. officials were told by their Israeli counterparts that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would welcome a U.S.- and French-led temporary cease-fire initiative for Lebanon only to see Israel launch a massive airstrike that killed Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah two days later.
Netanyahu’s office said in a statement that “we listen to the opinions of the United States, but we will make our final decisions based on our national interests.”
The Middle East has been bracing for an expected response from Israel after Iran launched roughly 180 ballistic missiles on Oct. 1, which the United States helped to fend off. The tit-for-tat strikes and uncertainty about whether Israel might strike strategically important energy and nuclear sites in Iran have raised fears about escalation into an all-out regional war.
Israel was mowing the grass before there was Hamas, although that particular phrase may be more recent.
“Mowing the grass” embodies more than just strategic fatalism; it also reflects a large measure of hubris. At its core lies the assumption that Israel can control the rheostat in Gaza, hitting Hamas just hard enough to deter it from attacking Israel but not so hard that Gaza implodes into chaos or explodes into a regional war. As one Israeli defense analyst said of the 2014 Gaza war, “We want to break their bones without putting them in the hospital.”
more here
Opinion: The problem with Israel's futile Gaza strategy, explained
The Hamas attack represented a spectacular failure of Israel's 'mowing the grass' strategy in the Gaza Strip. Only better conditions can break the cycle.
www.latimes.com
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