ISU wins a rather tough Cliff Keen

[MSU158]

For all of you “Negative Nancy” fans, after Iowa barely snuck by ISU, this should tell you that Iowa is still right at the top of “the rest”. In fact, I was actually very impressed by their overall performance and it also showed that the “Michigan Mercenaries” are very beatable. Hell, even NCState, Cornell, tOSU and OKState showed significant weaknesses.

ISU may actually prove to be Iowa’s biggest competition for 2nd in March. Wouldn’t that be something?

 

[dtripp26]

Who was negative that we beat ISU??? Most of us expected to lose with all the suspensions.

 

[MSU158]

Who was negative that we beat ISU??? Most of us expected to lose with all the suspensions.

Go back and read the play by play thread. There were people calling for firing Bramds…

 

[so cal hawkfan]

For all of you “Negative Nancy” fans, after Iowa barely snuck by ISU, this should tell you that Iowa is still right at the top of “the rest”. In fact, I was actually very impressed by their overall performance and it also showed that the “Michigan Mercenaries” are very beatable. Hell, even NCState, Cornell, tOSU and OKState showed significant weaknesses.

ISU may actually prove to be Iowa’s biggest competition for 2nd in March. Wouldn’t that be something?

To be fair Cornell was missing their defending National champ in Arujau. Okie St didn’t have Fix and Michigan didn’t have AA Chris Cannon. 133 was really watered down without those 3. Frost was a finalist and seeded 2nd. He would’ve been seeded 5th had they been in the tourney. Likeky drawing Cannon in the quarters. If he beat him, he’d had Vito in the semis. Him not making the finals gives the team title to Nebraska.

 

[93hawkeye]

Iowa is probably a better dual team than tourney team right now.
Unless a lot changes (and it can in the next 3.5 months), we're looking at very few AAs and very little bonus.

 

[SPOONER]

ISU isn’t finishing 2nd.

Neither is Iowa.

 

[DeangeloVickers]

ISU isn’t finishing 2nd.

Neither is Iowa.

Depending on what our 2nd semester lineup looks like I wouldn't be so sure on iowa not finishing 2nd.
On isu I agree, not enough potential high finishers in their lineup which is what it takes to finish top 3.

 

[USPMAN]

Depending on what our 2nd semester lineup looks like I wouldn't be so sure on iowa not finishing 2nd.
On isu I agree, not enough potential high finishers in their lineup which is what it takes to finish top 3.

Curious as to what Iowa wrestlers you consider “high finishers”

 

[WEH8ST8HAWK]

Go back and read the play by play thread. There were people calling for firing Bramds…

Truly not a bad idea if he isn't willing to send his brother to the HWC where he belongs and get 3 new assistants. Spencer, Metcalf and a top 197 or Heavy coach. That staff would be far superior to what we have. Before you all freak out, I know, I know, we like our guys...... I've heard that for far too long....

 

[SPOONER]

Depending on what our 2nd semester lineup looks like I wouldn't be so sure on iowa not finishing 2nd.
On isu I agree, not enough potential high finishers in their lineup which is what it takes to finish top 3.

Adding a title contender at 197 doesn’t make Iowa 2nd. That’s dreaming.

Truly not a bad idea if he isn't willing to send his brother to the HWC where he belongs and get 3 new assistants. Spencer, Metcalf and a top 197 or Heavy coach. That staff would be far superior to what we have. Before you all freak out, I know, I know, we like our guys...... I've heard that for far too long....

 

[MSU158]

ISU isn’t finishing 2nd.

Neither is Iowa.

Ok, what teams do you have finishing 2-5? To be clear, Cliff Keen was an actual tournament with all the main contenders, except Missouri, even if some weren’t quite at full strength. They all had most of their guys going and the guys that weren’t most likely wouldn’t have scored enough points to make a difference for any of them.

ISU-wrestled all their starters.

Nebraska-basically wrestled all their starters, but I guess they could change at 133 and 174, but that would be unlikely to score more points.

tOSU-Hepner was the only one not to go and as deep as 165 is, he would be very hard pressed to make a difference.

NCState-Camacho at 125 is the only starter not to go and he would have probably needed to make the finals to score enough to pass them. Definitely possible, but it shows ISU is right with them and they are supposed to be #2 right now.

Cornell-Arujau obviously makes a huge difference, but they finished 37 behind ISU. Even with Frost dropping to 4th with the addition of Arujau and Fix, that still isn’t enough points for Cornell to pass them. The only other spot is 149 and I am not sure Saunders does any better than Fernandez.

Michigan- Man did they look pedestrian, considering all the expectations. Cannon and the possibility of Gomez would absolutely make a difference, but not nearly 49 points worth.

OkState-with Witcraft going 2-2, he even did a bit to minimize the difference Fix would make, considering they were 51 points behind.

With the above said, I wasn’t saying ISU is a favorite. I am simply saying they have absolutely proven they can finish ahead of anyone but PSU. By extension, it shows me that Iowa absolutely is right at the top for 2nd place contention.

 

[el dub]

Adding a title contender at 197 doesn’t make Iowa 2nd. That’s dreaming.

Pronounced who-ares.

 

[MSU158]

Adding a title contender at 197 doesn’t make Iowa 2nd. That’s dreaming.

Lol, Iowa doesn’t even need AJ to finish 2nd. But, he ABSOLUTELY would make them a front runner if he goes. Again, do the actual placements and the corresponding math. PSU being so far ahead makes everyone think Iowa must be behind other teams because their scoring is so far behind. The simple truth is EVERY other team is that far behind and more…

 

[MSU158]

To be fair Cornell was missing their defending National champ in Arujau. Okie St didn’t have Fix and Michigan didn’t have AA Chris Cannon. 133 was really watered down without those 3. Frost was a finalist and seeded 2nd. He would’ve been seeded 5th had they been in the tourney. Likeky drawing Cannon in the quarters. If he beat him, he’d had Vito in the semis. Him not making the finals gives the team title to Nebraska.

That isn’t how the math works. Dropping Frost from 2nd to 4th only drops him 3 points and it doesn’t account for any bonus he may score on the backside. If he drops to 5th, that would be 5 points causing them to tie, but again, ANY backside bonus covers that.

 

[drunkengoat]

Lol, Iowa doesn’t even need AJ to finish 2nd. But, he ABSOLUTELY would make them a front runner if he goes. Again, do the actual placements and the corresponding math. PSU being so far ahead makes everyone think Iowa must be behind other teams because their scoring is so far behind. The simple truth is EVERY other team is that far behind and more…

I’ve never heard anybody being called a front runner for 2nd place. I don’t even know why we’d argue about if we have a shot for 2nd. Many are using the possibility of us getting 2nd to prop up our current program and coaches. This scenario would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. The frontrunner for 2nd………

 

[so cal hawkfan]

I’ve never heard anybody being called a front runner for 2nd place. I don’t even know why we’d argue about if we have a shot for 2nd. Many are using the possibility of us getting 2nd to prop up our current program and coaches. This scenario would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. The frontrunner for 2nd………

Unfortunately it’s where we’re at currently. PSU is leaps and bounds ahead of us right now and with the current recruiting class. It’s PSU and everybody else. Nothing lasts forever, but they are going to be on top for the foreseeable future.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Ok, what teams do you have finishing 2-5? To be clear, Cliff Keen was an actual tournament with all the main contenders, except Missouri, even if some weren’t quite at full strength. They all had most of their guys going and the guys that weren’t most likely wouldn’t have scored enough points to make a difference for any of them.

ISU-wrestled all their starters.

Nebraska-basically wrestled all their starters, but I guess they could change at 133 and 174, but that would be unlikely to score more points.

tOSU-Hepner was the only one not to go and as deep as 165 is, he would be very hard pressed to make a difference.

NCState-Camacho at 125 is the only starter not to go and he would have probably needed to make the finals to score enough to pass them. Definitely possible, but it shows ISU is right with them and they are supposed to be #2 right now.

Cornell-Arujau obviously makes a huge difference, but they finished 37 behind ISU. Even with Frost dropping to 4th with the addition of Arujau and Fix, that still isn’t enough points for Cornell to pass them. The only other spot is 149 and I am not sure Saunders does any better than Fernandez.

Michigan- Man did they look pedestrian, considering all the expectations. Cannon and the possibility of Gomez would absolutely make a difference, but not nearly 49 points worth.

OkState-with Witcraft going 2-2, he even did a bit to minimize the difference Fix would make, considering they were 51 points behind.

With the above said, I wasn’t saying ISU is a favorite. I am simply saying they have absolutely proven they can finish ahead of anyone but PSU. By extension, it shows me that Iowa absolutely is right at the top for 2nd place contention.

You really think ISU will place ahead of all those teams at NCAAs when all qualifiers will be participating, not only for those teams but all the others that will impact scoring?

Also, early season results are not the best indicators for how things play out in March.

I would gladly take the field of teams you listed vs ISU at Nationals and bet you any amount of money you are willing to lose.

 

[IAChief32]

I’ve never heard anybody being called a front runner for 2nd place. I don’t even know why we’d argue about if we have a shot for 2nd. Many are using the possibility of us getting 2nd to prop up our current program and coaches. This scenario would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. The frontrunner for 2nd………

They just released the college football playoffs: #1 Michigan is going to face #4 Alabama. Michigan should be the clear cut favorite, right? Everybody knows this is not true. Since 2010, all but 4 titles championships have went through the SEC...two of those have been won by Clemson, one by FSU, and one by tOSU. It makes me laugh when they talk about increasing parity in college football.

However, there is a shit ton more parity in college football than there is in wrestling. Michigan at least has a decent chance. The # of variables in the college game support this: Recruiting, facilities, funding not to mention the most important part: Actual game play. Upsets happen all the time in football. In wrestling? Not so much. Since Tom Brands got hired at Iowa (2008) and Cael at PSU, there has been one team that has won a title (tOSU). I'd argue that tOSU 2015 was the only "upset" since Iowa shit the bed but they were pretty even going into it since they tied at Big Tens. PSU sat studs that year, therefore we knew they weren't in it. But for most of those years, the battle was for second.

 

[MSU158]

You really think ISU will place ahead of all those teams at NCAAs when all qualifiers will be participating, not only for those teams but all the others that will impact scoring?

Also, early season results are not the best indicators for how things play out in March.

I would gladly take the field of teams you listed vs ISU at Nationals and bet you any amount of money you are willing to lose.

Lol, do you not read a post before you respond? This is the 2nd post in a row where you completely miss a part of a post that CLEARLY makes your post moot. I literally say at the end that I do not consider ISU a likely #2. The point of the post was to simply show they are capable of beating every other team but PSU and that shows Iowa easily could as well…

 

[MSU158]

I’ve never heard anybody being called a front runner for 2nd place. I don’t even know why we’d argue about if we have a shot for 2nd. Many are using the possibility of us getting 2nd to prop up our current program and coaches. This scenario would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. The frontrunner for 2nd………

What PSU is currently doing is unprecedented and that includes Iowa under Gable. No one has EVER recruited like PSU is now and there has never been an RTC remotely like the NLWC. On top of that, the coaching staff covers every aspect and game plans better than anyone in the game.

Simply put, it currently is a race for 2nd and I don’t see that changing for a while. Now, I am not saying you should be happy that it is a race for 2nd. But, you do need to understand why and have realistic expectations for now. There is no magic pill. Any coaching change is actually more likely to make Iowa drop further behind than magically help them close the gap…

 

[el dub]

I’ve never heard anybody being called a front runner for 2nd place. I don’t even know why we’d argue about if we have a shot for 2nd. Many are using the possibility of us getting 2nd to prop up our current program and coaches. This scenario would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. The frontrunner for 2nd………

That’s the way MSU likes to roll. Lol He’s pretty cagey with his put downs when he wants to be subtle.

 

[MSU158]

That’s the way MSU likes to roll. Lol He’s pretty cagey with his put downs when he wants to be subtle.

Seriously? Exactly who or what did I put down? Please enlighten me..

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Lol, do you not read a post before you respond? This is the 2nd post in a row where you completely miss a part of a post that CLEARLY makes your post moot. I literally say at the end that I do not consider ISU a likely #2. The point of the post was to simply show they are capable of beating every other team but PSU and that shows Iowa easily could as well…

Yes, I saw your typical MSU hedge contradicting your proceeding several paragraphs. You do it all the time and think its some sort of get out of jail free card so I just ignore it, why not just stand behind your opinion instead of hedging all the time?

ISU finish doesn't prove anything other than the scored the most points at CKLV this year. It certainly doesn't apply to a dual result where the dynamics can be quite different, and it also can't be compared to how NCAAs results will play out, a small tournament can have vastly different results than Nationals. How many times has PSU not won BigTens and then went on to win NCAAs?

So back to the original question, are you willing to bet that ISU places ahead of all those teams you listed at NCAAs or are you acknowledging that you are full of shit?

 

[MilleGinja]

ISU isn’t finishing 2nd.

Neither is Iowa.

Because we are finishing first! Nice optimism, spooner! Uncharacteristic of you

 

[MSU158]

Yes, I saw your typical MSU hedge contradicting your proceeding several paragraphs. You do it all the time and think its some sort of get off jail card so I just ignore it, why not just stand behind your opinion instead of hedging all the time?

ISU finish doesn't prove anything other then the scored the most points at CLVS this year. It certainly doesn't apply to a dual result where the dynamics can be quite different, and it also can't be compared to how NCAAs results will play out, a small tournament can have vastly different results then Nationals. How many times has PSU not won BigTens and then went on to win NCAAs?

So back to the original question, are you willing to bet that ISU places ahead of all those teams you listed at NCAAs or are you acknowledging that you are full of shit?

You show zero reading comprehension. Literally none. The ENTIRE point of my post was to show that ISU was capable and DID actually beat every contender but Iowa and Missouri in a really tough tournament.

There is no hedging when you never once say ANY team should take 2nd. I simply gave a CONSIDERABLE amount of data that shows every other contender is VERY beatable.. This is important as I see many on here acting like Iowa is so bad because they were close with ISU.

So keep on being you. Oblivious while extremely opinionated is a very hard combination to pull of…

Oh, and it wasn’t actually a “small tournament”. Unless you want to consider 10 of the top 13 teams small….

 

[Flying_Tiger]

So in other words "full of shit"

 

[MSU158]

So in other words "full of shit"

At least you show some level of self awareness. Good for you!

 

[moug]

So in other words "full of shit"

I'm sure a non-PSU fan going to your PSU site and calling anyone on your board "full of shit" would go well....................

 

[so cal hawkfan]

They just released the college football playoffs: #1 Michigan is going to face #4 Alabama. Michigan should be the clear cut favorite, right? Everybody knows this is not true. Since 2010, all but 4 titles championships have went through the SEC...two of those have been won by Clemson, one by FSU, and one by tOSU. It makes me laugh when they talk about increasing parity in college football.

However, there is a shit ton more parity in college football than there is in wrestling. Michigan at least has a decent chance. The # of variables in the college game support this: Recruiting, facilities, funding not to mention the most important part: Actual game play. Upsets happen all the time in football. In wrestling? Not so much. Since Tom Brands got hired at Iowa (2008) and Cael at PSU, there has been one team that has won a title (tOSU). I'd argue that tOSU 2015 was the only "upset" since Iowa shit the bed but they were pretty even going into it since they tied at Big Tens. PSU sat studs that year, therefore we knew they weren't in it. But for most of those years, the battle was for second.

It’s at the point that it’s not really competitive. We are competing against the rest of the NCAAs and PSU is competing against past ABs future PSU teams.

 

[MSU158]

They just released the college football playoffs: #1 Michigan is going to face #4 Alabama. Michigan should be the clear cut favorite, right? Everybody knows this is not true. Since 2010, all but 4 titles championships have went through the SEC...two of those have been won by Clemson, one by FSU, and one by tOSU. It makes me laugh when they talk about increasing parity in college football.

However, there is a shit ton more parity in college football than there is in wrestling. Michigan at least has a decent chance. The # of variables in the college game support this: Recruiting, facilities, funding not to mention the most important part: Actual game play. Upsets happen all the time in football. In wrestling? Not so much. Since Tom Brands got hired at Iowa (2008) and Cael at PSU, there has been one team that has won a title (tOSU). I'd argue that tOSU 2015 was the only "upset" since Iowa shit the bed but they were pretty even going into it since they tied at Big Tens. PSU sat studs that year, therefore we knew they weren't in it. But for most of those years, the battle was for second.

Absolutely nuts that they left an undefeated FSU out.

With that said, I agree with you that “parity” hasn’t been there for many years. But, I would argue this year is an exception. Georgia, tOSU and FSU didn’t make the playoff and I think all 3 could win it all. Even Oregon has the offense to hang with anyone….

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I'm sure a non-PSU fan going to your PSU site and calling anyone on your board "full of shit" would go well....................

I'd be more concerned with a MSU fan trolling your fanbase by calling you guys "Negative Nancys" From what I recall most Hawk fans were cornered about the ISU dual and were pretty happy with the win.

Of course my issue with MSU has more to do with the constant duplicity, the guy talks out of both sides of his mouth on a regular basis and expects people to buy into his horse manure (better?).

 

[el dub]

Seriously? Exactly who or what did I put down? Please enlighten me..

With any other team but Iowa, it wouldn’t necessarily be a put down. However, the greatest fan base in the nation isn’t interested in consolation prizes. Or being lumped in with the, “also ran,” crowd. We’re better than that. And don’t you forget it.

 

[dtripp26]

I'm sure a non-PSU fan going to your PSU site and calling anyone on your board "full of shit" would go well....................

If the description fits what's the problem?

@Flying_Tiger FTW!

 

[MSU158]

With any other team but Iowa, it wouldn’t necessarily be a put down. However, the greatest fan base in the nation isn’t interested in consolation prizes. Or being lumped in with the, “also ran,” crowd. We’re better than that. And don’t you forget it.

Goals and expectations aren’t synonymous. I have no issue whatsoever with wanting first above all else. However, with what PSU is doing, it simply isn’t realistic. Iowa isn’t behind PSU because they are doing things poorly. They are actually doing everything better than everyone but PSU. The problem is PSU is doing everything so much better than everyone else it is essentially impossible to keep up.

The last sentence is literally the entire point of my posts on this subject. I get that many of you got so used to winning, you simply expect it. But, for now, it is still important to realize you are the clear #2 behind an epic dynasty. They are the most impressive dynasty I have witnessed across all sports in the 35+ years of my 47 spent on the Earth.

Coming from a place where our professional sports gave us very little expectations, except for the Red Wings for a time, and having never truly ever been on a sports team that was ever deep enough to quite win it all, I have a very different view on realistic expectations. As a result, I admit I clash with those fans that won’t accept being a clear 2nd. But, my real issue is with the ones that just call for change without any real idea what that change will bring…

 

[ss7]

I'm sure a non-PSU fan going to your PSU site and calling anyone on your board "full of shit" would go well....................

Personally, I'd take that in a minute over the idiotic, inane ironbird ramblings we've been subjected to recently.

 

[el dub]

Goals and expectations aren’t synonymous. I have no issue whatsoever with wanting first above all else. However, with what PSU is doing, it simply isn’t realistic. Iowa isn’t behind PSU because they are doing things poorly. They are actually doing everything better than everyone but PSU. The problem is PSU is doing everything so much better than everyone else it is essentially impossible to keep up.

The last sentence is literally the entire point of my posts on this subject. I get that many of you got so used to winning, you simply expect it. But, for now, it is still important to realize you are the clear #2 behind an epic dynasty. They are the most impressive dynasty I have witnessed across all sports in the 35+ years of my 47 spent on the Earth.

Coming from a place where our professional sports gave us very little expectations, except for the Red Wings for a time, and having never truly ever been on a sports team that was ever deep enough to quite win it all, I have a very different view on realistic expectations. As a result, I admit I clash with those fans that won’t accept being a clear 2nd. But, my real issue is with the ones that just call for change without any real idea what that change will bring…

I disagree. Our pedigree and fan base elevate us above the rest of the pack. And there’s no reason that the success gap between PSU and Iowa can’t be closed. We have the history, potential and fan base to elevate our recruiting success to levels required to compete for national titles as opposed to the top of the, “also rans.”

But you might not understand that…

 

[so cal hawkfan]

Goals and expectations aren’t synonymous. I have no issue whatsoever with wanting first above all else. However, with what PSU is doing, it simply isn’t realistic. Iowa isn’t behind PSU because they are doing things poorly. They are actually doing everything better than everyone but PSU. The problem is PSU is doing everything so much better than everyone else it is essentially impossible to keep up.

The last sentence is literally the entire point of my posts on this subject. I get that many of you got so used to winning, you simply expect it. But, for now, it is still important to realize you are the clear #2 behind an epic dynasty. They are the most impressive dynasty I have witnessed across all sports in the 35+ years of my 47 spent on the Earth.

Coming from a place where our professional sports gave us very little expectations, except for the Red Wings for a time, and having never truly ever been on a sports team that was ever deep enough to quite win it all, I have a very different view on realistic expectations. As a result, I admit I clash with those fans that won’t accept being a clear 2nd. But, my real issue is with the ones that just call for change without any real idea what that change will bring…

We’re the exact same age?! WTF?! I would’ve bet money you were a millennial

 

[SPOONER]

Ok, what teams do you have finishing 2-5? To be clear, Cliff Keen was an actual tournament with all the main contenders, except Missouri, even if some weren’t quite at full strength. They all had most of their guys going and the guys that weren’t most likely wouldn’t have scored enough points to make a difference for any of them.

ISU-wrestled all their starters.

Nebraska-basically wrestled all their starters, but I guess they could change at 133 and 174, but that would be unlikely to score more points.

tOSU-Hepner was the only one not to go and as deep as 165 is, he would be very hard pressed to make a difference.

NCState-Camacho at 125 is the only starter not to go and he would have probably needed to make the finals to score enough to pass them. Definitely possible, but it shows ISU is right with them and they are supposed to be #2 right now.

Cornell-Arujau obviously makes a huge difference, but they finished 37 behind ISU. Even with Frost dropping to 4th with the addition of Arujau and Fix, that still isn’t enough points for Cornell to pass them. The only other spot is 149 and I am not sure Saunders does any better than Fernandez.

Michigan- Man did they look pedestrian, considering all the expectations. Cannon and the possibility of Gomez would absolutely make a difference, but not nearly 49 points worth.

OkState-with Witcraft going 2-2, he even did a bit to minimize the difference Fix would make, considering they were 51 points behind.

With the above said, I wasn’t saying ISU is a favorite. I am simply saying they have absolutely proven they can finish ahead of anyone but PSU. By extension, it shows me that Iowa absolutely is right at the top for 2nd place contention.

This is bad. Even for you, this is bad. Because the below is true.

ISU finish doesn't prove anything other than the scored the most points at CKLV this year. It certainly doesn't apply to a dual result where the dynamics can be quite different, and it also can't be compared to how NCAAs results will play out, a small tournament can have vastly different results than Nationals.

Having a bunch of R12-24 types pays huge dividends at a good in season tourney that still doesn’t include many of the top teams or competitors. Duals, too. It pays very few dividends in the NCAAs.

 

[DeangeloVickers]

Curious as to what Iowa wrestlers you consider “high finishers”

Real, Franek, and if he goes AJ are very likely high finishers and high point scorers. A fair chance all three are finalists and 3 finalists gets you in the hunt for a top 3 finish.
Add in Gabe and Caliendo as decent potential high finishers and at least likely AAs.
And Ayala and Anthony as lower potential at a high finish but certainly possible and I'd also put as likely AAs as well.

 

[MSU158]

This is bad. Even for you, this is bad. Because the below is true.




Having a bunch of R12-24 types pays huge dividends at a good in season tourney that still doesn’t include many of the top teams or competitors. Duals, too. It pays very few dividends in the NCAAs.

I notice you didn’t answer my question. The entire point is ALL of the top teams behind PSU are extremely similar. Maybe 2 guys cemented into the top 5 and a few possible low AA’s, meaning usually 5-6 guys scoring most of their points.

ISU-Carr and Bastida, with Feldcamp, Frost and Swiderski as possible AA’s along with Chittum as big potential wild card.

NCState- Hidlay with Orine and/or Camacho. Neither Orine or Camacho are cemented top 5, but, between them, 1 guy should. After that only Jack and Scott are solid AA contenders.

Nebraska- Robb and Lovett. After them they have Allred, Pinto, Hardy and Smith. 125 is such a crap shoot of straight up parity this year that I could see any of the top 12 in the Finals or going 2-2, so Smith falls into the wildcard category.

tOSU-Mendez and Kharchla. Bouzakis, Feldman, Gallagher and D’Emilio are all fringe AA types.

Cornell- Really only Arujau, but he is about as big of a lock to the Finals as it gets. After him you have Ramirez and Ungar as solid contenders but in weights they could easily finish top3 or R16. You then have a huge Wildcard in Shapiro and Cardenas has a solid Chance to AA. Foca is the likely “6th guy” for them, but he had a terrible weekend.

Michigan-I have been saying it from the beginning, MI has been overrated because they have a bunch of 5th-8th times, with really no top 5 locks. That doesn’t score the points at NCAA’s to put them ahead of the rest. Still, I would say 2 out of Davison, Griffith and Amine should finish top 5, but very likely closer to 5th than 1st. After that you have Lewan and Cannon as solid AA’s, with DeAugustio and possibly Gomez as wildcards.

OkState- Fix and Olejnik. Olejnik has looked to have seriously jumped levels at OkState. Still, 165 is brutal. After that, they are waaaaay too thin. Plott is their only other guy with solid AA potential.

Now let’s add in Missouri and Iowa:

Missouri- O’Toole and R. Elam. Probably the most reliable top 2 of any team. However, after them it drops down to nearly all unprovens. I would say Mauller has the best chance to AA after them and then you have Z. Elam, Surtin and Mocco as Fringe types.

Now finally Iowa- Woods and Franek. They don’t wrestle flashy but both are nearly impossible to score on and wrestle very well on the mat. I would say they are nearly the top locks that Missouri has. After that, you have Caliendo, Ayala and Kennedy(if he can get fit by March). But, you have ENORMOUS wild card potential in Arnold, Ferrari and Keuter. Depending on Kennedy’s health I still think they can sit Arnold this year and if they add Ferrari and Keuter, they have more than enough to beat the teams I listed above. If they add all 3, I don’t see how you have them behind any of them…