Joe T
- Thread starter drh1150
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Hes always going to do something stupid.
It doesn't matter.
His good almost always outweighs the bad, often significantly, but only when he's allowed to stay on the court.
Hes much more of an offensive threat than Connor because he can attack the rim and he's the best and most versatile defender we have at the guard spot.
Didn’t slow down, but definitely played with more decisiveness than in games past. It felt more like he was driving with an idea of what he wanted to do with the ball and was looking to make plays versus just driving to drive and getting himself stuck in bad situations
No, we can definitely discount that possibility.
Thats not a thing that happens in real life.
I would 100% agree he should be getting more minutes than Connor. Neither guy can shoot, but Toussaint can defend and makes the defense respect him getting to the basket.
He either won't or can't shoot. Defenses sag off of him more than Connor. Connor has at least had games where he has hit multiple 3's. Look it up.
For God sake Joe T has one good game in the last 10 and all of a sudden he's the next coming of Ronnie Lester. Did you ever stop to think that he was allowed to play more minutes because he was in control and not driving recklessly to the basket? Maybe the coaches can see what's coming because you know what, they practice with him every day. He played well and hopefully he will continue to have the results when he plays like a point guard and facilitates rather than dominates the ball.
And yah, forcing someone into predictable outcomes is so far fetched that it could never happen. You got me there. He's Joe T, not Michael J. He doesn't "attack" the rim. Patrick and Keegan can attack the rim, Joe T. plays under it.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. If Joe T is playing well, like he did Sunday, he deserves more minutes. If he comes in and is reckless for 5 minutes, then he's going to sit. He's never going to be a great shooter, and next year I think he will mesh really well with what our offense will bring to the table, in what is likely to be more of a run and gun type team without Luka.
Joe really needs to develop an outside shot,.. this would totally change his game.
He also gets to the free throw line at 3.2x the rate Connor does and shoots 7% higher from there... and Connor makes 0.7 threes per game. Joe draws multiple defenders when he drives and gets other players wide open shots, which is preferable to Connor getting wide open shots
Not a single person has compared Toussaint to Lester, and everybody here has watched him play enough to understand the areas he struggles. That doesn’t necessarily mean he should ride pine for an entire game after a poor sequence. Especially since an in-control Joe Toussaint is the type of player who can single handedly create momentum for the team and change the complexion of a given game
Your last sentence is his problem - he doesn't play in control often enough. His minutes are a reflection of that fact.
I absolutely want Joe T to succeed. The problem is I believe there are many Joe T "fans" who actually want Connor and Jordon to fail so Joe T gets more minutes. Tell me I'm wrong?
Who wants Bohannon or Connor to fail? I want Bohannon to get hot as hell and go 8 for 8 or better every game from here on out. When he's not hitting, unfortunately, he's a liability because as everyone who watches college ball can see his defense is hot garbage. I'd also like to see Connor succeed. Unfortunately he's had many unproductive minutes as well. Those guys have both gotten more minutes than their play warranted.
Joe T isn't in the same conversation as an all time great like Ronnie Lester. But, he does bring some absolutely needed athleticism to the 1 position. His inconsistency and difficulty in keeping himself under control mean that his minutes will be limited. I think they've been too limited and the hook is too quick. Joe T should have been getting more minutes all season, not 30 a game but definitely more. And some of those should have been coming from Bohannon and Connor.
He also doesn’t get much of an opportunity to rectify his mistakes like other players do. I’ve seen Bohannon have “lazy pass, poor defense, bad shot” sequences in games where he logs 30 minutes. Toussaint has had “turnover, foul” sequences that end up with him on the bench until we trail late in the game and need a defensive lineup. Fran himself called Toussaint a veteran after last game. Veterans usually have a leash long enough to play through their mistakes, and Joe doesn’t
Anybody who wants a member of the team, and subsequently the team, to fail isn’t really a fan. Pretty simple
Joe played 14 minutes per the box score. He is averaging over 11 minutes/game so it's not like he was out there a significant longer time. He just looked better when he was out there. Maybe the staffing coaching him up is helping?
He’s had multiple games lately where he has sat the entire 2nd half. I get that Fran trusts his veterans, but playing a guy coming off double hip surgery 32-36 minutes and the entire 2nd half makes no sense when you have a solid backup on the bench. Joe filled in admirably last year without JBO. Yes, he has turned the ball over this year and maybe Fran is trying to prove a point. He is also our only guy capable when we spread the floor of blowing by his man and either finishing or hitting the open man.
I just don’t want to get to a sweet 16 game against a junkyard dog team like Bama or someone that keeps throwing athletes at you forcing Jordan to waste all of his energy trying to get the ball up the court while Touissant sits the entire 2nd half.
I just don’t want to get to a sweet 16 game against a junkyard dog team like Bama or someone that keeps throwing athletes at you forcing Jordan to waste all of his energy trying to get the ball up the court while Touissant sits the entire 2nd half.
He did drive recklessly to the basket, multiple times.
1 drive he turned it over in the lane but ran the turnover down at half court and a second he jumped into a defender under the basket and threw up a shot that hit nothing.
He does the same stuff every game. Its what he's always done.
The only difference is that Fran didn't pull him after his first mistake.
He would have a similar impact every game if Fran would stop overreacting to turnovers.
The fact that you think a coach would instruct his players to let the opponents pg drive the ball into the lane, on purpose, in an attempt to force turnovers, shows you have no idea what you're talking about.
Joe played 14 minutes per the box score. He is averaging over 11 minutes/game so it's not like he was out there a significant longer time. He just looked better when he was out there. Maybe the staffing coaching him up is helping?
His average minutes after the first msu game is 5.5 if you remove the second msu game which was a blowout where all the deep bench played extra minutes.
So 3 times more minutes than he'd normally been getting.
I get why Fran was trying to break him of the bad habits that cause the TOs but it reached a point where it was not beneficial to the team to be leaving the best defender on the bench all game.
Averages 9.7 mpg in conferenceJoe played 14 minutes per the box score. He is averaging over 11 minutes/game so it's not like he was out there a significant longer time. He just looked better when he was out there. Maybe the staffing coaching him up is helping?
First of all - I said don’t under estimate the possibility. Secondly, when he plays out of control he’s a liability. When he’s pressured he forces the drive to the basket. He turns it over or throws up a bad shot just as often as doing something positive. For you to not understand this concept shows you know nothing about the game. I suppose you think he “attacks the rim” too?
OK - I am going to try one last time to have a rational basketball conversation. Let's say for the point of discussion that the advanced metrics indicate a certain and undeniable statistic. And another indicates another trend in play. Let's say that first metric was when a certain player gets sped up, a certain percentage of the time a turnover happens. We can also add that it happens in a specific part of the court. Now the other metric says that when a specific player is not overly harassed, he makes good decisions with the ball and can pick and choose when he takes it to the lane. Hmm - is the correct move the old school approach to never allow lane penetration or what the modern coach would do and take advantage of every statistical trend he/she can? You tell me. Or in this case would it just be ignored because "we never used to think that way?"
His play in conference has been below average. If you take out this last game at OH State, what was his in-conference A/TO ratio?
His play in conference has been below average. If you take out this last game at OH State, what was his in-conference A/TO ratio? What was his +/- during that time?
Maybe, just maybe, the coaching staff sees things that some of you don't?
Advanced Stats don’t back that up though. Stats on the season and in conference rate Joe T offense/defense combined way over Conner. Joe T also has one of the highest chemistry ratings on the team. Guess who has the lowest.
That is with Joe T playing sub par in spotty minutes. Why wouldn’t you want to give him extended minutes in reg season so you know by the tournament what you got. This horse breaking has gone too far.
Fact in advanced stats it’s not even close, Joe T ranks far above Conner and slightly above Jbo. JBos defense is that bad. He’s been better of late but I think 28 minutes helps him play better. Joe has one of the highest chemistry rankings on the team. Conner the lowest by far.
Remember when nfl/nba coaches scoffed at these types of stats and now use them like the Bible. Maybe Fran is a bit old school/stubborn?
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Lets use your advanced metrics. Our 2nd most effective lineup has JT in it. 4 out of our 5 worst lineups have Connor in it. I have seen it and said it all season long. Cmac should not be getting minutes on this team. I love Pmac and am neutral on Fran Mac so come at me with a different angle than being a Mac hater. I'm neutral on Fran because it's so impressive how he built this top 10 team yet so unimpressive how he has failed to utilize the correct pieces of the puzzle.
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If you take out all the games that he had two or more turnovers, then what is his A/TO?
Joe has had three games where he finished with 5+ assists this year (edit: in highly limited minutes) and four last year, so to treat these games like some great outlier is just not based in reality. However, to humor you because you couldn’t provide the stats yourself, if you remove the OSU game, Joe still has more assists than turnovers in conference play
I don’t know what his +/- is over that time. Given that he plays more with backups than nearly any other player on the team and gets yanked after mistakes, I imagine it’s not great
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People post about JT turnovers. Many are while he plays with the backups who aren't in correct position for his passes. Lets see how many Assists Cmac has playing with the back ups. Lets see what JT does with extended minutes with the starters. Lets also quit ignoring that JT by creates many turnovers on the defensive end. He is so much better than Cmac it isn't funny. The playing of Cmac is why this final 4 team is going to be a round of 16 at best with most likely round of 32 exit.
There isn't a coach in the conference that would be playing Cmac. They would all take JT on their team over Cmac. They would also take Kris Murray over him. Yes Kris. We will see next year that both Murrays are much better than Cmac. Connor seems like a fine young man that should be watching the games beside Ash.
Joe is 2nd in Iowa history in assist percentage and 1st in Iowa history in steal percentage, fyi. Those are two great metrics to show Joe's impact. Unfortunately, he's 6th all-time in TO percentage, but that has been on a team that doesn't turn the ball over much.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/iowa/leaders-and-records-career.html
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/iowa/leaders-and-records-career.html
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4 out of 31 last year, and 3 out of 25 this season? That pretty much sums up what outliers are - statistical anomalies. And you have to include turnovers if you want to see the A/TO ratio, right?
Part of the reason Iowa doesn't turn the ball over frequently is because Joe T hasn't been allowed to do so. He is currently at a 1.63 A/TO ratio. That is not that great for a non-scoring PG. He has improved as last year he was at 1.45 but unless he can get that over 2, I can see Ulis passing him up next year. He needs to be consistently better with avoiding turnovers.
https://www.foxsports.com/college-b...-player-stats?category=assists&seasonType=reg
12% of the data on the upper end of a data set doesn’t constitute outliers. If Toussaint had a game with 10 assists in his usual 10-15 minutes, that would be an outlier
And my “take out the games with 2+ turnovers” was me being facetious, and saying that you can’t just eliminate relevant pieces of data from a data set
Not trying to be a prick, but JT was the best guard on the court when we beat MSU the 1st time. This was 9 games ago on2/2. He had 10pts and 6 assists in just 21 minutes and I recall him being a pivotal part of winning the game. At that time, we needed a win badly. While he can be inconsistent, he makes enough plays to be warrant more time. The silver lining to the Nunge injury is that Fran now appears to have settled on his 8 man rotation, which will lead to more minutes for JT, KM, and Pmac.
It not the percentage of the data that determines whether it is an outlier, it is the distance from the statistcal mean. Your few examples are outliers by definition.
We agree that Joe T has good games where his head is in the game and he is more careful with the ball. But he currently has more games where he isn't on. He'll get better. He reminds me of Carfino in that respect (for you old timers like me🙂). Steve ended up being pretty damn good.
I see this too. But in my opinion there are many of these games he is deemed to not be on, in which he is not playing enough minutes to get a fair evaluation. He level of disruption on the defensive end is hard to measure.
Joe T is an interrupter on both ends of the court and needs to get 20 minutes a game. Opposing
offenses are wary of him and he takes them out of their rhythm. When we have the ball, his penetration/passing can help reduce our killing long dry spells.
To compensate for his TOs, we could get an offensive rebound every once in a while.
Damn, I never realized there were so many D1 basketball coaches that posted here. Impressive!
No other D1 coaches would have Connor playing over Murray, Pmac, Murray, or JT.
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