Just lost our best chance at Gold
- Thread starter mizzoufan90
- Start date
Bael lit the fire at ISU, but Jackson was the gasoline added to it.
I still think Bael pretty much doomed the program, but without Jackson they likely would have been a lower top 10 team for a while. Hard to believe his last year they finished in 57th place with 1 point. I feel like they could have hired me and had similar results.
I'll never understand how Pollard survived this long as AD, especially with the Chizik and KJ dumpster fires. All about the fund raising at ISU and not results? Campbell success in football save him?
Chizik wasn't there long enough for that to be considered a dumpster fire. Substitute his name with Steve Prohm and you have a better point. Or the meh or worse results of Paul Rhoads.
That said, yes, fundraising is something that can save an AD's tail. Despite success on the athletic fields the past several years at Iowa, it's certainly one of the things that's saved Gary Barta's.
BTW, is having Olympic trials a decidedly USA thing? Do other countries not do it in wrestling or other sports? It fits with our culture of earning it versus an arbitrary process, but something based on a points system of several events does intrigue me.
I guess you don't have to follow rules - good for you. Life isn't fair at times. Like it or not, rules establish objectivity and keep emotion out of it. I'm pretty sure the second a decision goes against you, you'd be wishing there was something logical to fall back on - like an established rule! If you don't like it, work to change it. But until then, deal with it. Or you can just whine and cry about how life isn't fair to you.
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Wtf are you on about? Was just responding to your claim about businesses/customers paying on time and the black and whiteness of it. Not at all how the real world works and the analogy doesn't help your case. Real world is substantially more gray than black and white, so using real world business as an example for how sports rules work isn't helping to sell your point.
The hypocrisy is your claim that black and white = life isn't fair. The exact same case can be made that gray = life isn't fair.
This is a forum, we're all giving our opinion on how the Cox situation should be handled. At end of day, our opinions will account for nothing. Just speaking from first hand, that your claim about late payments isn't close to how many real world businesses operate.
I can't speak as to how it works in every other country.
That said, the USA certainly is often driven by making things "events" and getting more eyeballs and money. That's fine, but it's often at the expense of having a system where the best people are ferreted out for international competition.
For example, if there was a 2-week Olympic camp for the USA basketball team selections and Anthony Davis missed it because of a twisted ankle, does that mean he should automatically be out? Isn't that a little ridiculous when we have an entire body of work from which to evaluate him?
For individual events, I'd love to see something like a "Grand Slam" of competitions, where you accrue points and the most points wins. For example if there were 4 tournaments over a period of time, and I came in 5th in the first one but won the next 3, I should probably go over the person who finished 1-2-2-2. Or whatever rubric makes sense. Maybe you need to win one of the 4 events and not just get the most points with 4 runner-up finishes or something idk. At least in that way we'd pick people who had the most success over a period of events.
They do and they did. They have the Olympic trials where you actually have to wrestle and beat the other guys to earn the spot. It isn't subjective like tryouts in a team sport, which is part of the beauty of wrestling. The athlete is alone and must perform with no excuses. How would you like to win the Trials and then have a governing body decide to "pick" their guy? The possibility of bribes, politics etc. enter into play with that scenario.
"a... clear top guy {can be} 10 minutes late weighing in and he's done." -- Yes, that is CORRECT!
Cox did not make weight. showing up to weigh-ins on time and down to weight has been the norm for every tournament, at every level for how long? Probably since before you were born. Btw, Cox did not weigh in. Weigh-ins closed at 8 am. He did not make weight. Making excuses and then providing special concessions for moronic behavior is the actual "suboptimal" way of doing things. ...
And yes, it is fair to leave a guy off the team (wrestling, track & field etc). Why, because how do you justify kicking someone off the team that actually qualified by winning or placing high enough to earn the spot on the team? Injuries, though very unfortunate, they do happen, and are a part of all sports. Tough breaks do happen.
And, we do have a "point system" in place and take into account a body of work. That is why/how seeds occur. For example, returning world medalists at the same weight class they entered in the trials, had a bye into the final. it was also a best 2 out of three match final. Thus, allowing for a bad match to occur, or to get a better idea of who is the best wrestler. Did any of the men's freestyle finals go three matches? No. I think our guys winning two matches in a row demonstrated they were the best guy. Cox had a bye into the semis and still found a way to screw it up. It isn't "the system" or the process, it is the athlete (and possibly the coach) that has the problem.
We have selected our Olympic Wrestling Team this way for how many Olympiads? Suddenly, the system or method sucks because one guy screws up? Going back to 1988, 174 other Olympic Wrestling Team spots were decided through this process and weigh-in format. Nobody has had a problem with it, until now?
173/175 USA Olympic Wrestling Team spots have actually been decided at the Trials since 1988. But one guy misses weight and therefore, the system needs to be fixed. -- That is beyond ridiculous.
Injuries will occur prior to, and/or during the Olympics. Do they provide special concessions for that? Well actually they do. If someone gets injured prior to the Olympics, that country's #2 wrestler goes instead. Or, an alternate from a country that is not qualified in the weight class gets in.-- (See Mike Zadick).
Having a bad, or off day when everything is on the line happens in every sport at every event. Complaining that our best guy may not perform well on the day of team trials or in the actual Olympics is irrelevant. Today is the day, everything is on the line. you better bring your A game. That is what champions do. Champions also do not miss weight, or show up late to weigh-ins on the day of compeition when they have a bye to the semis.
JB probably had an off day in the 2016 olympics. So did Adeline Gray... Let's give out Olympic 'gold medals based on a series of events to offset the "bad day" or injury? Does Varnerwin an Olympic Gold Medal without Yazdani being injured? Who knows, but "the best guy didn't win"-- Bull$h++.
Part of making the team is demonstrating you don't choke or do something STUPID when it is on the line.
If you do, then those are the breaks. sports are filled with setbacks and heartbreak. That is part of the reason why sports can be so important in developing young adults into high character people, focused people who persevere, or bounce back, or in some cases, have to move on with life.
The absolutely most ridiculous thing about those defending or advocating for special treatment or exception be given to Cox is that this situation was 100% preventable by Cox. There were no extenuating circumstances whatsoever. Cox will be 30 years old in 2024 (the same age as Dake is currently). Hopefully he bounces back, wins more World Championships and gets another chance in 2024.
Lmao, you totally misread what I wrote. What I wrote was not specific to Cox.
And yes, I think the Olympics often suffers from the same problem. For example, there is a reason why professional skiiers have a higher opinion of a World Cup season championship than a World Championship or Olympic gold medal. The former represents sustained excellence over a series of events, while the latter is just one random performance on one random day.
Also not related to Cox, I think it would be better to choose someone who is successful over many events as opposed to someone who has one great tournament. I don't even think that applies to Snyder and Cox, both of whom are very very good.
In no way am I talking about "picking" a representative. Again, you're not reading what I wrote at all.
Regarding someone like Michael Johnson, you can say it's WORSE for Team USA to leave him off because of an inopportune hamstring injury precisely because his body of work was so good -- he was the clear best in the world. In that case, I fail to see how they are rewarding someone who didn't perform; rather, someone is qualifying based on CONSISTENTLY performing over time. Do you see the difference?
Agree that there should be a better way to select our representatives. Having multiple events with a combined total to select the representative would have a much better chance of having the best person represent us in the Olympics.
This doesn’t address the Cox blunder, but if you did insist on doing it in one day, at least make the challenger tournament a double elimination tournament (like college baseball). Even the best wrestler can have an off match or get caught and pinned (like Lugo vs Henderson or Gilman vs Sanders). That freak event should not eliminate a wrestler. That is why they do the best 2 out of 3 for the finals. They should at least do double elimination for the challenge portion. I think Yianni and Zain should have gotten a second chance after being upset (they both got beat again on the back side, but the motivation wrestling for 3rd after their Olympic dreams were shattered isn’t quite the same).
No I did not misread what you wrote. The entire thread, and your posts have all been about the situation with Cox. In the posts where you may not have specifically mentioned Cox or what happened in Fort Worth, those posts are still intended to bolster a losing argument that Cox deserves another chance.
How many of your "Grand Slam" events at 97 kg would Cox have won over the past year? The answer is zero! The World Medalist in a different weight class getting a bye to the semis would have sufficed.
Do you see your argument falling apart yet? Also, what do you think the response will be when you tell wrestlers, like James Green, Joe Colon, and Thomas Gilman that you want them to weigh in 3 more times over the course of a year (actually probably more like 3.5 months due to the scheduling of the World Championships in the late fall) in addition to the other tournaments they have to enter because you want a "Grand Slam." I would bet the response would be, "What? Why? We already have seeding based on events and we have the Olympic Trials." Plus, we have to compete in the Pan Am Games (only 1 guy per country allowed), and other international tournaments to qualify the weight class... only one guy per country that is not already qualified is allowed to compete in the olympic qualifier.
What if your self proclaimed "best guy" gets hurt or misses weight for one of these "Grand Slam" tournaments? He still would have screwed himself. He isn't going to end up in first place if he misses weight at an event and gets zero grand slam points. This isn't Formula 1 with 23 events, where a retirement here and there won't kill you because it happens to everyone over the course of a season. Not making weight or showing up late only happens to one guy, not everyone, and not even during the course of a season. Snyder gets second place 3-4 times depending on the number of tournaments, while Cox gets first three times and then gets a zero because he misses weigh-ins. Guess what? Snyder makes the team and Cox does not. The string of seconds and a first would still beat some winning some firsts and taking a zero. For the record, if you want to accumulate a body of work, Snyder would still be ahead on "points" because he medaled at the last 2 World Championships at 97 kg. Cox still loses. Cox would (and did) have a bye to the semis which is fair.
But for the sake of argument, I'll play along with your "Grand Slam" idea. Where and when would these extra events take place? We could use the Matteo Pellicone as part of your "Grand Slam" plus we include two more domestic tournaments? Wait, we already have two domestic tournaments, and even another international event for a "Grand Slam." Those tournaments are the previous year's World Championships, the US Senior Nationals and the Olympic Trials...
that is what we already have in place. If Cox missed weight at one of your "Grand Slam" events he would have effectively knocked himself out of the running. I bet in that case, you would argue the "Grand Slam" was stupid because the Olympics are not an accumulation of several events, but a two day event.... just sayin'.
EVERYONE else was capable of reading the schedule. The worst part is, Cox STILL has not taken the time to know the rules. In 2016 he cost himself being in the finals because he didn't know the scoring criteria. Four years later, he still doesn't know the rules. EVERYONE knows competition always begins two hours after weigh-ins close. Did he know wrestling started at 10 am? I bet he did. If he didn't good lord, ugh... It isn't hard to figure out what is two hours earlier than 10:00 a.m.
How many on this board knew that the Trials had weigh-ins two hours prior to the start of competition? I am guessing a lot more than you think, and certainly every competitor and coach knews that. Well except for two. 219 wrestlers competed, and everyone one of them showed up on time. One wrestler out of 220 did not, so the system has failed?
Totally agree with this and I remember the Johnson situation well.
something needs to happen. Maybe as Kolin Moore if he wants another chance at making the team and if he does then him and Cox wrestle for a chance at Snyder. I dunno something. Sorry to Snyder but it should happen.
I get the weigh ins are at 8:00am and he made wait at 8:13 or something close to that. Cut ridiculous they didn’t let that go. They need an hour allowance or something. Just incredibly frustrating.
I agree tho maybe a series of multiple matches through out the year to figure out who is the best guy.
in the end it never should of happened but 13 or 14 minutes he makes weight?! Why even let him weigh in. It’s ridiculous. If the guy makes weight anytime that day before the match after eight it should be good. Since the objective is obviously to make it asap so they can start rehydrating.
Cox said he’s training either way. Whether he gets a chance at Snyder, which isn’t going to balked unfortunately, or for worlds I’m assuming at 92kg because of this. Unreal
I don’t necessarily dislike the current system but making up your own set of tournaments then being critical of the system you made up is an interesting debate strategy. Just wanted to point that out. You did nail it on Cox.
He already had an allowance as weigh ins were done in a 2 hour window I believe. Moore already had his shot and got waxed.
And finally: “Making weight during the allotted time period is fundamental to the sport.”
— John Smith
I did not make up my own set of tournaments. I was onlyresponding to frontheadlock2's ridiculous suggestion that he
"{would} love to see something like a "Grand Slam" of competitions, where you accrue points and the most points wins. For example if there were 4 tournaments over a period of time, and I came in 5th in the first one but won the next 3, I should probably go over the person who finished 1-2-2-2. Or whatever rubric makes sense. Maybe you need to win one of the 4 events and not just get the most points with 4 runner-up finishes or something idk. At least in that way we'd pick people who had the most success over a period of events."
The tournament scenario was not an idea thought up by me, but instead, was a suggestion from FrontHeadlock2 to better the system of picking our Olympic Team representatives. I was running with his idea and pointing out how ludicrous it was. It still boils down to this: suggest we change the system because one guy out of 220 can't show up on time (and/or be down to weight) for weigh-ins.
Again, I have thought this for many years. It's not a novel concept either -- sustained excellence over time is better than a one-time result. That doesn't mean all or even most selections would change, but in an effort to select the best team it makes no sense to have amnesia and throw out years of results. Regarding Cox, I agree that might not even matter. And Cox might not have even beaten Snyder, which is why this is a separate point entirely, although a natural outgrowth of the Cox discussions.
Michael Johnson is a pretty clear cut example of this. To have him watching the 200m at the Olympics (after winning the 400m mind you) because he pulled up lame in the trials was borderline absurd. He should have been in that race, period.
But you did cherry pick the four events. I agree it shouldn't be changed because of Cox. It should be changed if a better system is identified. (I don't have a major problem with the trials concept, FWIW.)
FWIW, I too would not have a problem with a different format to select the Oly team...but I also am not upset about the current process. BUT...no matter whether you go with a one weekend wrestle off tourney or some sort of points system from multiple events...you still will need to weigh in on time.
In other words, the error of the Cox team here would likely be a major impediment to him making the team either way.
Per the barcode scanning on his credential he showed up at 7:21am, checked weight at 7:24am and eventually made weight at 8:14am. He was there on time. He couldn’t make weight until 14 minutes after the deadline. There’s no gray area here.
I agree.
But the benefit is it doesn't make these things fatal to making the team.
So to continue with the Cox situation, if he misses weight in the first of four qualifying tournaments, he might need to win all three remaining qualifying tournaments to make it, which is probably a good result all around, because (a) he's getting a significant penalty for not making weight on time and (b) if he DOES in fact run the table over the 3 remaining events, then that's good evidence that he probably IS the guy.
I wanted Cox on the team, but if can't make weight for a tournament that was postponed a year, you or your team may not be paying attention to the details that could make an Olympic champion. Arriving to a venue 40 mins before the dead line with a weight to shed, then taking 45 mins to re-check is idiotic. Even at the high school level, every wrestler knows where they are at before they leave the house.
J'den isn't even an alternate, that is how bad he screwed up. Cya in 3 years for 2024's games. That is a long time to try to stay healthy in mind/body/financially/family stress. That is why so few can make it more than one cycle, the window for success is narrow.
J'den isn't even an alternate, that is how bad he screwed up. Cya in 3 years for 2024's games. That is a long time to try to stay healthy in mind/body/financially/family stress. That is why so few can make it more than one cycle, the window for success is narrow.
I did not Cherry Pick the four events. I used the only events they could logistically use or would utilize to determine a grand slam winner per Headlock2's "Grand Slam"m proposal. Nobody is going to go for adding more events (and weigh-ins), to the calendar. These events are already on the calendar, are important events, they spaced a part appropriately (usually) and three of the 4 events are already used to directly determine USA Olympic Trials seeds. The fourth event (Matteo Pellicone) comes into consideration for seeds as well. Coming uo with 4 events was Frontheadlock2's idea. He said, have 4-5 events and a point earning system to determine olympic berths,,, So your guy loses (or misses weight) so change the system to suit someone's emotions? The 4-5 event idea is ludicrous since we already take into account the previous year's world Medalists, the US Open results, the Matteo Pellicone (used if wanting to argue for a better seed in the Trials) and we use the actual Olympic Trials.
That is a collection of 4 events. The better you do at the previous events, the better likelihood you are sitting with a bye to the semis, the finals, or have a better seed and path to the finals.
You can't fix stupid. Not knowing the weigh in time is stupid. Not being down to weight on time is stupid. We can't legislate or change rules to fix stupidity. Give it a rest.
Hey look I’m not advocating for change. And I’m certainly no expert on the international wrestling scene but doesn’t the USA already host at least 3 events annually plus there are a bevy of other international tournaments? Including ones in Mexico and Canada?
Yes, but our athletes do not wrestle in every tournament, nor do they want to. It takes a toll on the body and it interrupts training schedules to some degree if you keep participating in international events. The previous year's World Championships, The Senior Nationals, Matteo Pellicone and the Trials. That seems about right doesn't it? Unless of course a guy misses weight. Then it is flawed.
Funny how those adamant about defending Cox, and wanting to change the system weren't very vocal, if at all about Suriano, who missed the Trials b/c of a positive covid test. They did not come to his defense, even though his being scratched which was due to no fault of his own, unlike Cox. To me, that proves this is an emotional issue for them and is about their affinity for Cox. Suriano is the perfect example of where a one day winner take all Trials can be a heartbreaker for a wrestler. Feel bad for Suriano, unfortunate circumstances beyond his control cost him a chance in 2021.
Funny how those adamant about defending Cox, and wanting to change the system weren't very vocal, if at all about Suriano, who missed the Trials b/c of a positive covid test. They did not come to his defense, even though his being scratched which was due to no fault of his own, unlike Cox. To me, that proves this is an emotional issue for them and is about their affinity for Cox. Suriano is the perfect example of where a one day winner take all Trials can be a heartbreaker for a wrestler. Feel bad for Suriano, unfortunate circumstances beyond his control cost him a chance in 2021.
They wouldn’t necessarily have to wrestle them all. Maybe a minimum number off a list of tournaments, perhaps with some even get weighted more than others. They could even weight the finishes, rewarding a higher finish over consistently finishing say 3rd or 5th.
All I’m saying is there might be something to it. Or there might not be. But it is intriguing to me. I just thought there were more options than picking a specific 4 tournaments.
Regardless, there’s no sympathy for Cox from me. Making weight in the allotted time is fundamental to the sport.
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Exactly. And it at least allows someone off on a day to still have a chance. Heck imagine even getting a bad stomach virus the weekend of the trials.
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