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Hawkeye2222

HB MVP
Dec 21, 2014
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Fleming plays the 1-2-3 Shoots the 3 and is a very good passer, started playing HS BB in 8th grade, was awarded the Mr BB in his Division was rated the 5th best player in Tennessee and now starts for one of the best Prep schools in the country, 4* by a BB only publication. team oriented player

Moss plays the 1-2-3, range to 3, good passer and starts for one of the top HS programs in ILL, Simeon HS, team oriented player

Williams can play the 1-2-3, range to 3, Team oriented player

they all can pass shoot and more importantly are team oriented players, that is what seems to be what Fran looks for in his recruits. not a bunch of look at me I AM THE STAR OF MY TEAM, that tries to score 25 ppg every time out.
 
Team oriented...is that your new buzz word for not a game changer?

I really just want to know their heights, weights, and 40 times.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
of the 3, williams is really the only guy who could realistically play the 3.

This post was edited on 3/16 6:27 PM by 91hawki
 
I wouldn't classify either Fleming or Moss as a legit PG - in an extreme emergency, yes -but otherwise 2/3.
 
so the only ones you want are those that are like Petteway of Nebraska? give me players that are team oriented vs a ball hog any day, and no BB players do not have 40 times listed, besides the court from end line to endline is only 32 yards.

this is why PASSING the ball is more important than running with the ball, but I can sure tell you never played BB in your life not even in PE.
 
Thanks, Hawkeye2222, for telling us stuff we've all known for 6 months.

Did you hear we invaded Iraq?
This post was edited on 3/16 6:38 PM by 4th & 9 inches
 
9" then why are you not leading the way as you know everything and are a expert in all things. oh that's right you are a recruiter for ISIS. since all you can do is attack.
 
We both gave an opinion on C. Williams, yet mine is based on seeing him play in person.

Is your opinion based on seeing him in person? What I thought.
 
no I have seen his video's and read the reports by professional scouts and read what his coach said about him. and at this point I will trust the opinion of his HS coach who sees this kid everyday. on top of that I will trust Fran over some mealy mouthed no nothing poster.
 
Originally posted by Hawkeye2222:

they all can pass shoot and more importantly are team oriented players, that is what seems to be what Fran looks for in his recruits.
Click to expand...

We are all aware that Fran wants to recruit players who can pass. And shoot. And want to be part of a team. I wonder if he also like people who are tall (or does he like short people?). Do you think he likes people who can run? Yes or no on fatties?

Why did you bother posting this drivel?
 
I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish. Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen. I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.


I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)


This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes

This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
 
Everyone has a right to an opinion of course. It is unfortunate it leads to silly squabbles.

That said, you are all dolts.
smile.r191677.gif
Just kidding.

I know that McCaffery has mentioned that both Moss and Fleming could play the point if needed. But I like the comment made, they could play the five as well. True. But, do we think McCaffery would even think about them at the point if he didn't believe they could provide an asset?

In Christian William's case, you can call me nuts but looking at his videos...he can play point, and very well. The more I find to watch him, the more I like him.

Essentially we traded Dickerson for Williams. I think that is the upgrade of the year!
 
Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish. Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen. I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.


I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes
This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
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I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone. I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa. He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated. He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players. Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G. Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot. It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it. I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater. I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible. At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this. If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky.

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here).
 
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:
Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person.  Moss, Williams, Hutton.  That is the order that I like them. 

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one.  I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point.  Moss is a wing and a good one.  I like his game and would be happy with him on my team.  Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot.  Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell.  I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night.  Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk.  He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night. 

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter.  You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there.  He shoots it really well from 15 feet in.  He is a good, not great athlete.  He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers.  Not sure he can play the point or not.  I see him initiating offense from the wing.  He can drive and dish.   Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though.  Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen.   I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all.  Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system.  I have been right and wrong many times over the years.  Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala.  I didn't think either one was very good in high school.  Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.


I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be.  :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes
This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
Click to expand...
I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone.  I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa.  He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated.  He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players.  Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G.  Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot.  It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it.  I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater.  I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible.  At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this.  If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky. 

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here). 
Click to expand...
Who is touting anyone as being all B1G? Show me one post the last couple days where recruits are being over-touted. I see a lot of posts saying these guys are fitting pieces to Fran's puzzle. Nothing more.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish. Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen. I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.


I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)


This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes


This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
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When have you seen Hutton, and how many times have you seen him? I find him the most intriguing because he has star potential if he can just be a slightly above-average offensive player. Additionally, I think he will be guaranteed to play significant minutes next year because even if his offense is below average, he will instantly be able to be a valuable role player with his defensive ability.

From the articles I've read, his stock shot up over the summer because of his progress in his shooting and dribbling skills. There are videos of him on youtube dunking when he was very young and it looked like he played the post position growing up. If so, that partially explains why his perimeter skills are behind the curve.

From the more recent videos I've seen of Hutton, he looks to have decent dribbling skills and a decent looking shot. In fact, compared to Williams I think Hutton's outside shot looks slightly better -- it looks rather mechanical (which is consistent with him just recently developing his shot) but it looks more easily repeatable than William's shot which I think has a lot of work to do if he will be an effective outside shooter at the next level.

Does anyone have any season stats for these incoming recruits? Unfortunately stats are not readily available online. I'd be interested in seeing what Hutton's shooting percentage was this year, how many three's he's made, and what his free throw percentage is. For example, I've seen that Wagner has shot only about 5 three-pointers this season and he struggles to shoot 50% from the free throw line which is concerning. Highlight videos are only going to show made buckets, so it would be nice to get some objective evaluation of Hutton's outside shooting.

To me, Hutton sounds a lot like Victor Oladipo. Elite athlete and defender, but neither had developed a great perimeter game in high school. Hutton sounds like he is even a little less developed than Oladipo was in his perimeter game, but we've seen guys make great strides in this throughout college.
 
Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:
Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.Â

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.Â

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish.  Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen.  I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.


I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes
This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
Click to expand...
I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone. I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa. He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated. He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players. Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G. Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot. It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it. I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater. I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible. At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this. If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky.Â

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here).Â
Click to expand...
Who is touting anyone as being all B1G? Show me one post the last couple days where recruits are being over-touted. I see a lot of posts saying these guys are fitting pieces to Fran's puzzle. Nothing more.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
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I was using hyperbole. However, people had MG and Woody as first team All B1G candidates by their junior year. Then we get the Moss can play the point. According to Combes the guy hasn't played PG for his hs team, but some think he's point material in college.

What does "fitting pieces" mean? Come on, people have hyping these guys as more than "fitting pieces". Hutton is going to be a lockdown defender, Williams has incredible handles who can be an effective PG, Flemming the next great 3 pt shooter, and Wagner the next great big. It's ridiculous. Some of these may be correct but it needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt because everyone on here is a homer and looking through black and gold glasses. Most have never seen these kids play.

I remember the same people were touting MG as a quick PG who will be able to get to the hoop whenever he wants and a very good shooter, with excellent form, from beyond the arc. That analysis was exposed as wrong early on. MG shooting form is poor, he's not quick, and he's not a good shooter beyond the arc.

Sorry, but I prefer reading what someone like Combes says about our recruits over people like yourself. Combes has shown he has a pretty good eye for talent and pretty objective about Iowa recruits.
 
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:

Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.Â

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.Â

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish.  Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen.  I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.



I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes

This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
Click to expand...
I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone. I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa. He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated. He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players. Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G. Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot. It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it. I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater. I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible. At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this. If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky.Â

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here).Â
Click to expand...
Who is touting anyone as being all B1G? Show me one post the last couple days where recruits are being over-touted. I see a lot of posts saying these guys are fitting pieces to Fran's puzzle. Nothing more.

Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
I was using hyperbole. However, people had MG and Woody as first team All B1G candidates by their junior year. Then we get the Moss can play the point. According to Combes the guy hasn't played PG for his hs team, but some think he's point material in college.

What does "fitting pieces" mean? Come on, people have hyping these guys as more than "fitting pieces". Hutton is going to be a lockdown defender, Williams has incredible handles who can be an effective PG, Flemming the next great 3 pt shooter, and Wagner the next great big. It's ridiculous. Some of these may be correct but it needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt because everyone on here is a homer and looking through black and gold glasses. Most have never seen these kids play.

I remember the same people were touting MG as a quick PG who will be able to get to the hoop whenever he wants and a very good shooter, with excellent form, from beyond the arc. That analysis was exposed as wrong early on. MG shooting form is poor, he's not quick, and he's not a good shooter beyond the arc.

Sorry, but I prefer reading what someone like Combes says about our recruits over people like yourself. Combes has shown he has a pretty good eye for talent and pretty objective about Iowa recruits.


That's right Jaff, because people like you and me and Coach McCaffery that have commented on Moss being able to play the point don't know as much as Combes. Because Combes at this moment and on this subject happens to agree with Phantom.

THAT is the key. If you agree with Phantom you know basketball. Just ask Phantom.
Click to expand...
 
I like reading Combes comments as well and I agree with him about Moss and the point guard talk. But I choose to also watch film, as much as I can really, and make my own decisions in all the players coming in. I have no problems saying that I've watched more then my fair share of hoops live at every level and can and will draw my own conclusions. If you don't think finding the right pieces that fit your team is a thing then I'm debating with the wrong guy. This happens at every level and on any well coached team. I am very confident in knowing that Fran is bringing in a guy like Hutton to defend, rebound, and run the floor. He seems to do all those really well and whatever else he may bring is a bonus. I could do a breakdown on what every recruit does well right now but it's well documented here.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:
I like reading Combes comments as well and I agree with him about Moss and the point guard talk. But I choose to also watch film, as much as I can really, and make my own decisions in all the players coming in. I have no problems saying that I've watched more then my fair share of hoops live at every level and can and will draw my own conclusions. If you don't think finding the right pieces that fit your team is a thing then I'm debating with the wrong guy. This happens at every level and on any well coached team. I am very confident in knowing that Fran is bringing in a guy like Hutton to defend, rebound, and run the floor. He seems to do all those really well and whatever else he may bring is a bonus. I could do a breakdown on what every recruit does well right now but it's well documented here.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
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Bingo jaff...right with you. Nothing personal against combes cause I appreciate his input but when you grow up in a house with a dad who's a Head Coach in BB and spent every moment you could in a gym at about 6 or 7 years old playing the game and still do in my golden years now, if I can't make my own analysis/recommendations about what skills a player has or doesn't have by now...crap, what a waste of time in my life hanging out in gyms and playing the game.

Plus....it's not just what I see on tape but it's all about Fran and his coaching staff too. He is a very trusted source for me when it comes to the game of BB. My lord what he has done to bring this program back to national prominence after where it was at when he stepped on campus is really remarkable. He gets it, he's got a plan and this next wave of recruits coming in especially if he adds Dale Jones who I've come to REALLY like watching his vids it's going to be fun to be an IOWA fan and a pain in the butt to be Combes or any other Big Ten fan...it just is.
 
Combes, I usually agree with you and I think you have a very un-biased opinion, honest opinion of the players from Illinois and I, for one, really appreciate your posts. I really mostly scroll through a lot of posts, but pay close attention to yours when there is mention of any Illinois HS players.

That said, I've watched (on High School cube) Hutton and Moss, only, and clips of Williams. Here is what I think from my observations and they aren't really too much different than yours. Firstly, I think each player will have different roles. Like you, I think Moss has a ton of potential, but it's so hard to tell how good he could be because Simeon plays so fast it's hard to really specifically detail how good his skills are. You can definitely tell he has all the abilities to be a good player, so it'll come down to how hard he wants to work to maximize his potential. Hopefully Fran can coach him up. Williams seems to have Marble type skill from the clips I've seen. I think he has a high ceiling as well. My prediction is that he ends up being the best recruit of all, actually. I really like his skill overall. He seems to have the ability to do a lot of things on the court really well. I hope he's a clutch performer because we'll need one. Finally, like you, I'm not as high on Hutton, as some are, from what I've seen (seen 3 games on High School Cube). I don't see him as a reliable shooter/scorer at all. I loved his intensity, but I'm not sure he has a natural feel for the game (I think that might be Williams's strength actually). He seems a bit stiff, but my bet is he might be a guy who works really hard on his game. I just don't think it comes quite as naturally as it would Moss and Williams. Offensively, I see Hutton as a guy who would be a very low option unless it was a fast break dunk or possible ally-oop. I think Williams and Moss's games, offensively, are a lot more refined and their ceilings are a lot higher.
 
McCaffery is messing with us if he says anyone in this class can play point. Maaaaybe Williams, but fact remains that Iowa badly needs a post and a point
Posted from Rivals Mobile

This post was edited on 3/17 2:52 PM by HerkyHopeful
 
Is it possible Fran knows of a point guard transfer? I doubt it, but just throwing out scenarios (unlikely, at that).
 
Originally posted by Mitjacks:
Combes, I usually agree with you and I think you have a very un-biased opinion, honest opinion of the players from Illinois and I, for one, really appreciate your posts.  I really mostly scroll through a lot of posts, but pay close attention to yours when there is mention of any Illinois HS players. 

That said, I've watched (on High School cube) Hutton and Moss, only, and clips of Williams.  Here is what I think from my observations and they aren't really too much different than yours.  Firstly, I think each player will have different roles.  Like you, I think Moss has a ton of potential, but it's so hard to tell how good he could be because Simeon plays so fast it's hard to really specifically detail how good his skills are.  You can definitely tell he has all the abilities to be a good player, so it'll come down to how hard he wants to work to maximize his potential.  Hopefully Fran can coach him up.  Williams seems to have Marble type skill from the clips I've seen.  I think he has a high ceiling as well.  My prediction is that he ends up being the best recruit of all, actually.  I really like his skill overall.  He seems to have the ability to do a lot of things on the court really well.  I hope he's a clutch performer because we'll need one.  Finally, like you, I'm not as high on Hutton, as some are, from what I've seen (seen 3 games on High School Cube).  I don't see him as a reliable shooter/scorer at all.  I loved his intensity, but I'm not sure he has a natural feel for the game (I think that might be Williams's strength actually). He seems a bit stiff, but my bet is he might be a guy who works really hard on his game.  I just don't think it comes quite as naturally as it would Moss and Williams.  Offensively, I see Hutton as a guy who would be a very low option unless it was a fast break dunk or possible ally-oop.  I think Williams and Moss's games, offensively, are a lot more refined and their ceilings are a lot higher. 
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I agree from what I've seen that Williams may have the highest ceiling of all the recruits. Hutton seems like the most limited player offensively but the best player defensively. Time will tell. I know it's a bit early but anyone know who is expected to play on the PTL this summer?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
since another plays PG for Simeon, just why would Moss have to play the point. not every team plays 2 pg's as for Hutton all I said is he has the range to 3, never said he was a 3 point marksman, being a 3 in Fran system all he has to do is have the ability to shoot the 3,

Huttons main ability is as a defender, and that has been discussed many times,

Fleming is a 3 point shooter, and he is also a very good passer this is very obvious in the videos, in the videos Moss brings the ball up the court and he does look to pass 1st rather than shoot 1st,

this seems to bother some on here, if a player does not lead his team in scoring he is not worth the scholarship, all these players start on High profile HS program, they are not bench players that get garbage minutes.

they do not have that 4th * by rivals so they CAN'T be any good, no other recruiting service knows how to scout and/or grade players.

Fleming is a 4* by a publication dedicated to BB only
Moss is a 4* by ESPN
Hutton is a 4* by 247.

but because NONE have that 4th * by Rivals they are the scum off the bottom of the barrel players. and can't possibly help this team.

give Coach Fran McCaffery some credit in knowing more about these recruits vs someone that says they have seen them play 2 maybe 3 times.
 
Originally posted by DanL53:
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:

Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.Â

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.Â

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish.  Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen.  I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.



I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes

This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
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I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone. I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa. He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated. He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players. Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G. Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot. It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it. I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater. I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible. At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this. If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky.Â

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here).Â
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Who is touting anyone as being all B1G? Show me one post the last couple days where recruits are being over-touted. I see a lot of posts saying these guys are fitting pieces to Fran's puzzle. Nothing more.

Posted from Rivals Mobile
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I was using hyperbole. However, people had MG and Woody as first team All B1G candidates by their junior year. Then we get the Moss can play the point. According to Combes the guy hasn't played PG for his hs team, but some think he's point material in college.

What does "fitting pieces" mean? Come on, people have hyping these guys as more than "fitting pieces". Hutton is going to be a lockdown defender, Williams has incredible handles who can be an effective PG, Flemming the next great 3 pt shooter, and Wagner the next great big. It's ridiculous. Some of these may be correct but it needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt because everyone on here is a homer and looking through black and gold glasses. Most have never seen these kids play.

I remember the same people were touting MG as a quick PG who will be able to get to the hoop whenever he wants and a very good shooter, with excellent form, from beyond the arc. That analysis was exposed as wrong early on. MG shooting form is poor, he's not quick, and he's not a good shooter beyond the arc.

Sorry, but I prefer reading what someone like Combes says about our recruits over people like yourself. Combes has shown he has a pretty good eye for talent and pretty objective about Iowa recruits.


That's right Jaff, because people like you and me and Coach McCaffery that have commented on Moss being able to play the point don't know as much as Combes. Because Combes at this moment and on this subject happens to agree with Phantom.

THAT is the key. If you agree with Phantom you know basketball. Just ask Phantom.
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Yes, and football coaches never say Player X could play QB, when they are really recruiting them to play DB. Jeebus, Dan, have you ever heard of coach speak? Also, Woody "could" play PG, he'd suck at it but he could play it if Fran put him there. Marble played PG but he wasn't very good at it which is why MG became the starting PG even though even you will admit MG is nothing more than an avg PG.

Goodness, you are the guy who's full of himself on this board. I don't know if Moss can play some PG, but if he was very good he'd be playing it in HIGH SCHOOL. If one followed your comments about Iowa's recruits you'd think Fran had a recruiting class that rivaled the Fab Five. It's laughable. You were touting Woody and MG as the 2nd coming when they came to Iowa. Every player Fran offers you drool over. You have no credibility on how good these guys are since you are blinded by your love of the Hawks. You can't even maintain the slightest bit of objectivity. At least Combes has seen these guys play in person, which is more than you, Jaff, and pretty much every person on here can say. Does this mean Combes is correct or never wrong? He'd be the first to say, "no". Is Fran perfect? Am I correct that Fran thought Dickerson could play PG in the B1G? How did that work out?

You should change your screen name from DanL to "FranSaid" since you seem to just parrot Fran.
 
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by DanL53:

Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:


Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:


Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:


Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.Â

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.Â

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish.  Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen.  I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.




I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes

This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
Click to expand...
I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone. I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa. He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated. He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players. Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G. Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot. It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it. I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater. I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible. At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this. If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky.Â

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here).Â
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Who is touting anyone as being all B1G? Show me one post the last couple days where recruits are being over-touted. I see a lot of posts saying these guys are fitting pieces to Fran's puzzle. Nothing more.


Posted from Rivals Mobile
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I was using hyperbole. However, people had MG and Woody as first team All B1G candidates by their junior year. Then we get the Moss can play the point. According to Combes the guy hasn't played PG for his hs team, but some think he's point material in college.

What does "fitting pieces" mean? Come on, people have hyping these guys as more than "fitting pieces". Hutton is going to be a lockdown defender, Williams has incredible handles who can be an effective PG, Flemming the next great 3 pt shooter, and Wagner the next great big. It's ridiculous. Some of these may be correct but it needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt because everyone on here is a homer and looking through black and gold glasses. Most have never seen these kids play.

I remember the same people were touting MG as a quick PG who will be able to get to the hoop whenever he wants and a very good shooter, with excellent form, from beyond the arc. That analysis was exposed as wrong early on. MG shooting form is poor, he's not quick, and he's not a good shooter beyond the arc.

Sorry, but I prefer reading what someone like Combes says about our recruits over people like yourself. Combes has shown he has a pretty good eye for talent and pretty objective about Iowa recruits.




That's right Jaff, because people like you and me and Coach McCaffery that have commented on Moss being able to play the point don't know as much as Combes. Because Combes at this moment and on this subject happens to agree with Phantom.

THAT is the key. If you agree with Phantom you know basketball. Just ask Phantom.
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Yes, and football coaches never say Player X could play QB, when they are really recruiting them to play DB. Jeebus, Dan, have you ever heard of coach speak? Also, Woody "could" play PG, he'd suck at it but he could play it if Fran put him there. Marble played PG but he wasn't very good at it which is why MG became the starting PG even though even you will admit MG is nothing more than an avg PG.

Goodness, you are the guy who's full of himself on this board. I don't know if Moss can play some PG, but if he was very good he'd be playing it in HIGH SCHOOL. If one followed your comments about Iowa's recruits you'd think Fran had a recruiting class that rivaled the Fab Five. It's laughable. You were touting Woody and MG as the 2nd coming when they came to Iowa. Every player Fran offers you drool over. You have no credibility on how good these guys are since you are blinded by your love of the Hawks. You can't even maintain the slightest bit of objectivity. At least Combes has seen these guys play in person, which is more than you, Jaff, and pretty much every person on here can say. Does this mean Combes is correct or never wrong? He'd be the first to say, "no". Is Fran perfect? Am I correct that Fran thought Dickerson could play PG in the B1G? How did that work out?

You should change your screen name from DanL to "FranSaid" since you seem to just parrot Fran.
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Coaches can't comment about players they are recruiting.

Done. Bingo. Phantom is a dope.
 
flyer did it ever occur to you Simeon already had a starting PG when Moss TRANSFERED in so there was no reason for him to play PG, ALSO the Simeon HS Coach said he can/could play the PG spot, so now combes knows more than the Simeon BB coach who coached Moss EVERDAY in practice and in the games,

combes bias toward IA RECRUITS is clouded by him being a illiny fan 1st. as IA just can't recruit better players than his illini team. and show me a player that Fran said that he could play a certain position that never played that position under Fran,

his goal since he has gotten here is to get players in that can play multiple positions. the only player that can't would have to be Woody

in this case I believe the Simeon HS coach and IA Coach Fran McCaffery over some illini fan, combes does provide good insight but it is biased insight none the less.
 
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by DanL53:

Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:


Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:


Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:


Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.Â

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.Â

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish.  Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen.  I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.




I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes

This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
Click to expand...
I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone. I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa. He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated. He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players. Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G. Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot. It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it. I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater. I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible. At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this. If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky.Â

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here).Â
Click to expand...
Who is touting anyone as being all B1G? Show me one post the last couple days where recruits are being over-touted. I see a lot of posts saying these guys are fitting pieces to Fran's puzzle. Nothing more.


Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
I was using hyperbole. However, people had MG and Woody as first team All B1G candidates by their junior year. Then we get the Moss can play the point. According to Combes the guy hasn't played PG for his hs team, but some think he's point material in college.

What does "fitting pieces" mean? Come on, people have hyping these guys as more than "fitting pieces". Hutton is going to be a lockdown defender, Williams has incredible handles who can be an effective PG, Flemming the next great 3 pt shooter, and Wagner the next great big. It's ridiculous. Some of these may be correct but it needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt because everyone on here is a homer and looking through black and gold glasses. Most have never seen these kids play.

I remember the same people were touting MG as a quick PG who will be able to get to the hoop whenever he wants and a very good shooter, with excellent form, from beyond the arc. That analysis was exposed as wrong early on. MG shooting form is poor, he's not quick, and he's not a good shooter beyond the arc.

Sorry, but I prefer reading what someone like Combes says about our recruits over people like yourself. Combes has shown he has a pretty good eye for talent and pretty objective about Iowa recruits.




That's right Jaff, because people like you and me and Coach McCaffery that have commented on Moss being able to play the point don't know as much as Combes. Because Combes at this moment and on this subject happens to agree with Phantom.

THAT is the key. If you agree with Phantom you know basketball. Just ask Phantom.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Yes, and football coaches never say Player X could play QB, when they are really recruiting them to play DB. Jeebus, Dan, have you ever heard of coach speak? Also, Woody "could" play PG, he'd suck at it but he could play it if Fran put him there. Marble played PG but he wasn't very good at it which is why MG became the starting PG even though even you will admit MG is nothing more than an avg PG.

Goodness, you are the guy who's full of himself on this board. I don't know if Moss can play some PG, but if he was very good he'd be playing it in HIGH SCHOOL. If one followed your comments about Iowa's recruits you'd think Fran had a recruiting class that rivaled the Fab Five. It's laughable. You were touting Woody and MG as the 2nd coming when they came to Iowa. Every player Fran offers you drool over. You have no credibility on how good these guys are since you are blinded by your love of the Hawks. You can't even maintain the slightest bit of objectivity. At least Combes has seen these guys play in person, which is more than you, Jaff, and pretty much every person on here can say. Does this mean Combes is correct or never wrong? He'd be the first to say, "no". Is Fran perfect? Am I correct that Fran thought Dickerson could play PG in the B1G? How did that work out?

You should change your screen name from DanL to "FranSaid" since you seem to just parrot Fran.
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People are always going to be excited about incoming players on some level. He sees it as people touting the next Fab 5 but there is nothing to that extent. Why make that crap up Phantom?

In the end, I guess I'd rather be a bit optimistic and point out what players can do rather then the opposite. I have no problem that others do and the debate can be fun but they haven't even stepped on the court yet. Why not try to be a little bit positive about a 17-18 year old kid who chose to play for your favorite team?

I think he just doesn't like Fran. That's fair though as he's not alone. For most fans I think it's less not liking Fran and more he's not Fred. You're gonna get that.
 
Hawkeye2222 posted on 3/17/2015...


no I have seen his video's and read the reports by professional scouts and read what his coach said about him. and at this point I will trust the opinion of his HS coach who sees this kid everyday. on top of that I will trust Fran over some mealy mouthed no nothing poster.

*Translation: I can't really form an opinion of my own
 
Projecting recruits, and opining on their talent, is like any other intelligence analysis. We all get many data points: from HS coaches, AAU coaches, eye witness observation, national recruiting reports, etc...

All that the fans, that aren't scouting for Iowa or some competitor, is make their best informed guess when talking about a recruit. Opinions are subjective, not objective. There wouldn't be much point in sports blogging if every fan shared the same opinions. No one knows how a recruit turns out until after their Iowa career ends, and much discussion remains thereafter.

This is a great week to be a Hawkeye basketball fan....the best week since 2006. Could we maybe not get so personal and shitty with each other until the Hawks lose?
 
Originally posted by DanL53:
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by DanL53:

Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:


Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:


Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:


Originally posted by combes:

I have seen three of Iowa's recruits in person. Moss, Williams, Hutton. That is the order that I like them.Â

I don't agree with you about Moss playing the one. I have seen Simeon a number of times and have never seen him play the point. Moss is a wing and a good one. I like his game and would be happy with him on my team. Sometimes it is hard to tell about Simeon players and what their offensive capabilities are since they play a very team oriented game and no one really shoots a lot. Some nights it is Morrow, others it is Williams or Moss or Norvell. I have seen them enough that I can pick out a game where each of those four would be the best player on the floor on a given night. Morrow is the most consistent because of his type of game which is rebound and dunk. He doesn't rely on hitting a jumper to be good on a particular night.Â

I also don't think Williams is a very good outside shooter. You say he has range to three, but he doesn't shoot it very well from out there. He shoots it really well from 15 feet in. He is a good, not great athlete. He handles the ball well but is prone to turnovers. Not sure he can play the point or not. I see him initiating offense from the wing. He can drive and dish.  Just being able to dribble a bit doesn't make you a point guard, though. Illinois has found that out the hard way for a few years.

Hutton is a very good athlete and defender, but I am not a big fan of his game. Very poor shooter in the games I have seen.  I went to a game where if I didn't know who he was I would not have noticed him at all. Definitely can guard, though.

Of course, a BT coach knows way more than I do about talent and how it fits into his system. I have been right and wrong many times over the years. Probably my worst evaluation mistakes were Brian Cardinal and Andre Iguodala. I didn't think either one was very good in high school. Cardinal for physical limitation in his game and Iguodala for his attitude.




I also thought Oglesby was going to be better than he turned out to be. :)

This post was edited on 3/17 11:47 AM by combes

This post was edited on 3/17 11:48 AM by combes
Click to expand...
I think bigs are probably harder to evaluate than anyone. I remember a lot of folks who saw Acie Earl play high school and thought he was going to be a big stiff at Iowa. He was slow, somewhat uncoordinated. He didn't look like a player who would end up playing in the NBA.

Thanks for the rundown on these players. Too many fans look at every player through black and gold glasses and think every recruit is the next All B1G. Guys who play the 3 are touted as potential PG, or guys who are poor shooter beyond the arc are touting as having a good shot. It's hard for me to take very many people's opinion seriously on this site because they so want the incoming recruit to be good they hype them up even if they don't realize it. I like your analysis because it's not based on looking at things through black and gold glasses, and I don't think you are a Hawk hater. I think your evaluations are pretty fair and as unbiased as possible. At the very least you provide a different perspective and I appreciate this. If I took the evaluations of others seriously, about the Iowa recruits, I'd think Iowa was the next Kentucky.Â

Anyway, thanks again for providing us a report on players you've personally seen play (unlike most Iowa fans who comment here).Â
Click to expand...
Who is touting anyone as being all B1G? Show me one post the last couple days where recruits are being over-touted. I see a lot of posts saying these guys are fitting pieces to Fran's puzzle. Nothing more.


Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
I was using hyperbole. However, people had MG and Woody as first team All B1G candidates by their junior year. Then we get the Moss can play the point. According to Combes the guy hasn't played PG for his hs team, but some think he's point material in college.

What does "fitting pieces" mean? Come on, people have hyping these guys as more than "fitting pieces". Hutton is going to be a lockdown defender, Williams has incredible handles who can be an effective PG, Flemming the next great 3 pt shooter, and Wagner the next great big. It's ridiculous. Some of these may be correct but it needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt because everyone on here is a homer and looking through black and gold glasses. Most have never seen these kids play.

I remember the same people were touting MG as a quick PG who will be able to get to the hoop whenever he wants and a very good shooter, with excellent form, from beyond the arc. That analysis was exposed as wrong early on. MG shooting form is poor, he's not quick, and he's not a good shooter beyond the arc.

Sorry, but I prefer reading what someone like Combes says about our recruits over people like yourself. Combes has shown he has a pretty good eye for talent and pretty objective about Iowa recruits.




That's right Jaff, because people like you and me and Coach McCaffery that have commented on Moss being able to play the point don't know as much as Combes. Because Combes at this moment and on this subject happens to agree with Phantom.

THAT is the key. If you agree with Phantom you know basketball. Just ask Phantom.
Click to expand...
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Yes, and football coaches never say Player X could play QB, when they are really recruiting them to play DB. Jeebus, Dan, have you ever heard of coach speak? Also, Woody "could" play PG, he'd suck at it but he could play it if Fran put him there. Marble played PG but he wasn't very good at it which is why MG became the starting PG even though even you will admit MG is nothing more than an avg PG.

Goodness, you are the guy who's full of himself on this board. I don't know if Moss can play some PG, but if he was very good he'd be playing it in HIGH SCHOOL. If one followed your comments about Iowa's recruits you'd think Fran had a recruiting class that rivaled the Fab Five. It's laughable. You were touting Woody and MG as the 2nd coming when they came to Iowa. Every player Fran offers you drool over. You have no credibility on how good these guys are since you are blinded by your love of the Hawks. You can't even maintain the slightest bit of objectivity. At least Combes has seen these guys play in person, which is more than you, Jaff, and pretty much every person on here can say. Does this mean Combes is correct or never wrong? He'd be the first to say, "no". Is Fran perfect? Am I correct that Fran thought Dickerson could play PG in the B1G? How did that work out?

You should change your screen name from DanL to "FranSaid" since you seem to just parrot Fran.
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Coaches can't comment about players they are recruiting.

Done. Bingo. Phantom is a dope.
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Good grief. That's the best you have? Mr. "Recruiting ratings don't matter". LOL.
 
My take:

Fleming:
Is a 2/3 who is mostly a 2 but unlike Oglesby could play the 3 situationally due to his frame and strength. Could probably play PG in a pinch like Oglesby did 2 years ago, but nobody would call Oglesby a PG either. The most ready to play of this group IMO, but also the closest to his ceiling. Get a very good vibe from his game and personality. Team ego type of guy.

Hutton:
He committed awhile ago and I'm sure the staff hoped his offense would progress. I'm sure it has, but perhaps not as much as we would have liked since he's been way too invisible. The vibe I get from him is more like Clemmons, where he had a defensive reputation and one was hopeful about his offense but in the end we've been mildely disappointed - but he hasn't been a bust. Hutton won't be a bust by any means, but I've toned down my expectations a bit because giving a 2/3 a lot of minutes when they really can't create or shoot from 16+ is really going to hurt your other teammates ability to score. Still a lot of potential, so he could explode at some point....but that might be 2-3 years from now.

Moss:
The player with the highest offensive ceiling. Ability to create and shoot. Defense a question mark, but athleticism is there. He's a 2/3 who projects as a slashing 2 perhaps. Will need to tighten up aspects of his game to get major minutes, but for a team that needs offensive threats he'll play as soon as its safe to do so.

Williams:
Sounds like another team oriented guy with good length and athleticism. A big like Marble in that he's not an elite athlete but can make up for that with length and decision making. Good upside with him as well, but it may take him 1-2 years to get serious minutes.

Wagner:
Natural multi-sport athlete who is active and athletic. A defense first option who can run the court. Offense should come with focus, but will never have Niang type offensive savvy perhaps. Would be happy with a 14 ft jumper, some 1 dribble drives, and a few post moves.
 
Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:
People are always going to be excited about incoming players on some level. He sees it as people touting the next Fab 5 but there is nothing to that extent. Why make that crap up Phantom?

In the end, I guess I'd rather be a bit optimistic and point out what players can do rather then the opposite. I have no problem that others do and the debate can be fun but they haven't even stepped on the court yet. Why not try to be a little bit positive about a 17-18 year old kid who chose to play for your favorite team?

I think he just doesn't like Fran. That's fair though as he's not alone. For most fans I think it's less not liking Fran and more he's not Fred. You're gonna get that.
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I'm not making up anything. Hyperbole? Yes. However, people over-hype the Iowa recruits then are surprised when they don't live up to expectations. Every team in the conference has good players coming in. Fran is not bringing in the same level of talent of many schools in the conference. This is just reality. Outside of DanL, very few people think ratings are meaningless. There's a reason Ky is undefeated. They have a roster filled with highly rated kids. The same with Duke, Az, etc. We saw the same thing in football with people like Kilfoy trying to tell everyone stars don't matter. Of course they do. There's a reason that every team who's won the BCS championship has had at least 2 recruiting classes ranked in the top 10 prior to winning the championship.

A bit optimistic? Maybe you are but many are off the charts optimistic with these players. What's wrong with being objective? If you don't unfairly place expectations on these kids coming in (which is what you are really doing) then you won't be upset when they turn out to be nothing more than a Josh O. You are doing a disservice to these kids. It's not optimism. It's putting unrealistic expectations on them. I'm trying to temper the hype and get you to come down out of the clouds so then you aren't upset when Williams isn't avg 15 pts a game his junior year (I'm not saying he won't but don't expect it).

I like Fran, I just don't think he's a very good coach. That's subjective. I'm tired of the stupid technicals, like the one at the end of the PSU game, the poor game coaching, and his inability to bring in higher rated talent. Just my opinion but I don't think Fran holds a candle to Matta, Bo, Izzo and several other B1G coaches. I think he's a gimmick coach. His press and running style worked at small schools because he was able to recruit more talent than the other schools in those conferences. It's not going to happen at Iowa.

And just so Dan or someone else doesn't misrepresent my position, I don't think Fran should be fired. He's a decent coach but I don't see him taking Iowa to the next level. I don't see him doing what Bennett and Bo did at Wis. I could care less if "he's not Fred". I don't watch ISU until the tournament, so I don't care what Fred does. Well, I'll give him credit for the success he's had at ISU and wouldn't mind him as the next Bulls coach if they fire Thibs. I want Fran to be more like Bo or Thad or Izzo. Guys who are great teachers, great recruiters and great game coaches. The B1G is loaded with some good coaches, it's not going to get any easier.
 
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:

People are always going to be excited about incoming players on some level. He sees it as people touting the next Fab 5 but there is nothing to that extent. Why make that crap up Phantom?

In the end, I guess I'd rather be a bit optimistic and point out what players can do rather then the opposite. I have no problem that others do and the debate can be fun but they haven't even stepped on the court yet. Why not try to be a little bit positive about a 17-18 year old kid who chose to play for your favorite team?

I think he just doesn't like Fran. That's fair though as he's not alone. For most fans I think it's less not liking Fran and more he's not Fred. You're gonna get that.
Click to expand...
I'm not making up anything. Hyperbole? Yes. However, people over-hype the Iowa recruits then are surprised when they don't live up to expectations. Every team in the conference has good players coming in. Fran is not bringing in the same level of talent of many schools in the conference. This is just reality. Outside of DanL, very few people think ratings are meaningless. There's a reason Ky is undefeated. They have a roster filled with highly rated kids. The same with Duke, Az, etc. We saw the same thing in football with people like Kilfoy trying to tell everyone stars don't matter. Of course they do. There's a reason that every team who's won the BCS championship has had at least 2 recruiting classes ranked in the top 10 prior to winning the championship.

A bit optimistic? Maybe you are but many are off the charts optimistic with these players. What's wrong with being objective? If you don't unfairly place expectations on these kids coming in (which is what you are really doing) then you won't be upset when they turn out to be nothing more than a Josh O. You are doing a disservice to these kids. It's not optimism. It's putting unrealistic expectations on them. I'm trying to temper the hype and get you to come down out of the clouds so then you aren't upset when Williams isn't avg 15 pts a game his junior year (I'm not saying he won't but don't expect it).

I like Fran, I just don't think he's a very good coach. That's subjective. I'm tired of the stupid technicals, like the one at the end of the PSU game, the poor game coaching, and his inability to bring in higher rated talent. Just my opinion but I don't think Fran holds a candle to Matta, Bo, Izzo and several other B1G coaches. I think he's a gimmick coach. His press and running style worked at small schools because he was able to recruit more talent than the other schools in those conferences. It's not going to happen at Iowa.

And just so Dan or someone else doesn't misrepresent my position, I don't think Fran should be fired. He's a decent coach but I don't see him taking Iowa to the next level. I don't see him doing what Bennett and Bo did at Wis. I could care less if "he's not Fred". I don't watch ISU until the tournament, so I don't care what Fred does. Well, I'll give him credit for the success he's had at ISU and wouldn't mind him as the next Bulls coach if they fire Thibs. I want Fran to be more like Bo or Thad or Izzo. Guys who are great teachers, great recruiters and great game coaches. The B1G is loaded with some good coaches, it's not going to get any easier.
Click to expand...
Good post Jaff.

Phantom, again, my opinion on rankings is that outside the top 35 or so players, the rankings are pretty much meaningless. Dang but I've repeatedly corrected the misinformation you put out concerning my opinion. And it is unfortunate that to make a point you have to resort to deceptive practices.

Kind of ruins any chance you have of getting any respect for you or your opinions from me.
 
Originally posted by DanL53:
Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:

Originally posted by jaffarosenfels:

People are always going to be excited about incoming players on some level. He sees it as people touting the next Fab 5 but there is nothing to that extent. Why make that crap up Phantom?

In the end, I guess I'd rather be a bit optimistic and point out what players can do rather then the opposite. I have no problem that others do and the debate can be fun but they haven't even stepped on the court yet. Why not try to be a little bit positive about a 17-18 year old kid who chose to play for your favorite team?

I think he just doesn't like Fran. That's fair though as he's not alone. For most fans I think it's less not liking Fran and more he's not Fred. You're gonna get that.
Click to expand...
I'm not making up anything. Hyperbole? Yes. However, people over-hype the Iowa recruits then are surprised when they don't live up to expectations. Every team in the conference has good players coming in. Fran is not bringing in the same level of talent of many schools in the conference. This is just reality. Outside of DanL, very few people think ratings are meaningless. There's a reason Ky is undefeated. They have a roster filled with highly rated kids. The same with Duke, Az, etc. We saw the same thing in football with people like Kilfoy trying to tell everyone stars don't matter. Of course they do. There's a reason that every team who's won the BCS championship has had at least 2 recruiting classes ranked in the top 10 prior to winning the championship.

A bit optimistic? Maybe you are but many are off the charts optimistic with these players. What's wrong with being objective? If you don't unfairly place expectations on these kids coming in (which is what you are really doing) then you won't be upset when they turn out to be nothing more than a Josh O. You are doing a disservice to these kids. It's not optimism. It's putting unrealistic expectations on them. I'm trying to temper the hype and get you to come down out of the clouds so then you aren't upset when Williams isn't avg 15 pts a game his junior year (I'm not saying he won't but don't expect it).

I like Fran, I just don't think he's a very good coach. That's subjective. I'm tired of the stupid technicals, like the one at the end of the PSU game, the poor game coaching, and his inability to bring in higher rated talent. Just my opinion but I don't think Fran holds a candle to Matta, Bo, Izzo and several other B1G coaches. I think he's a gimmick coach. His press and running style worked at small schools because he was able to recruit more talent than the other schools in those conferences. It's not going to happen at Iowa.

And just so Dan or someone else doesn't misrepresent my position, I don't think Fran should be fired. He's a decent coach but I don't see him taking Iowa to the next level. I don't see him doing what Bennett and Bo did at Wis. I could care less if "he's not Fred". I don't watch ISU until the tournament, so I don't care what Fred does. Well, I'll give him credit for the success he's had at ISU and wouldn't mind him as the next Bulls coach if they fire Thibs. I want Fran to be more like Bo or Thad or Izzo. Guys who are great teachers, great recruiters and great game coaches. The B1G is loaded with some good coaches, it's not going to get any easier.
Click to expand...
Good post Jaff.

Phantom, again, my opinion on rankings is that outside the top 35 or so players, the rankings are pretty much meaningless. Dang but I've repeatedly corrected the misinformation you put out concerning my opinion. And it is unfortunate that to make a point you have to resort to deceptive practices.

Kind of ruins any chance you have of getting any respect for you or your opinions from me.
Click to expand...
I've asked you before to provide some kind of study/statistical evidence to support your rankings opinion. I'm still waiting for even the slightest evidence to support your position. I'll likely grow old waiting for you to support this claim up.

I'm not really concerned what your opinion is of me. When you write what you did in your final paragraph (in the previous message) it speaks volumes to your maturity level, and makes it impossible to hold an adult discussion with you.
 
So you know he's not the guy but you also don't think he should be fired. So in the meantime complain that it's not good enough. That's basically what you are doing. You can go ahead and call it hyperbole. I don't care. Now I'd have more respect for you if you think we should just fire him now. Cut our ties, take what he's done and bring in the hotshot that no one knows about to build on what Fran started. Maybe that would be the smartest move. Who knows right?! And then..... all your negativity would be justified really. But to say he shouldn't be fired when you KNOW he's not the guy. What kind of fan are you?

While I would love for iowa to somehow discover the next future hall of fame coach, and the success that would put one there, I'm not gonna just be negative the whole time that my team is not at that level we all would love to sustain. What I do as a fan really has no bearing in the outcome so why not enjoy it for what it is. I've enjoyed this season. I'm looking forward to the next for many reasons. Youre right that Fran shouldn't be fired and he won't be anytime too soon.
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