McCaffery boys vs Murray and Tousasaint

[bumper52]

Player Stats - Defense

PLAYER Player on team	GP Games played	GS Games started	OREB Offensive Rebounds	DREB Defensive Rebounds	REB Total Rebounds	RPG Rebounds Per Game	STL Total Steals	SPG Steals Per Game	BLK Total Blocks	BPG Blocks Per Game
C. McCafferyG	7	7	5	25	30	4.3	5	0.70	1	0.10
K. MurrayF	7	0	7	22	29	4.1	8	1.10	10	1.40
P. McCafferyF	7	0	9	16	25	3.6	5	0.70	3	0.40
J. ToussaintG	7	0	2	6	8	1.1	5	0.70	1	0.10
Offensive stats in a little bit

 

[eyesofhawk]

Is there some 2 on 2 game coming that I haven't heard about?

WHO CARES?

 

[bumper52]

Player Stats - Scoring

PLAYER Player on team	GP Games played	GS Games started	MPG Minutes Per Game	PPG Points Per Game	FGM Field Goals Made	FGA Field Goals Attempted	FG% Field Goal Percentage	3FGM Three-Point Field Goals Made	3FGA Three-Point Field Goals Attempted	3FG% Three-Point Field Goal Percentage	FTM Free Throws Made	FTA Free Throws Attempted	FT% Free Throw Percentage
C. McCafferyG	7	7	22.3	3.9	8	19	42.1	3	12	25.0	8	12	66.7
K. MurrayF	7	0	13.6	5.7	13	28	46.4	5	13	38.5	9	12	75.0
P. McCafferyF	7	0	16.4	7.6	16	43	37.2	5	19	26.3	16	24	66.7
J. ToussaintG	7	0	15.6	6.3	17	35	48.6	2	6	33.3	8	12	66.7

 

[BBHawk]

You forgot the stat showing that CMAC lead the NATION in Assists/TO ratio last year.

 

[bumper52]

Well, I think the entire Iowa fan base should care. Obviously,stats don’t tell the entire story. Looking at these, however, it’s pretty clear Joe and Keegan deserve more minutes, especially ahead of Daddy’s boys. Playing merely role players at best ahead of two clearly two better players and athletes...what’s not to understand about this? Daddy ball in the Big 10. Why doesn’t Fran sign his 8th grade boy? Did Fran tutor under Lickleiter?

 

[bumper52]

You forgot the stat showing that CMAC lead the NATION in Assists/TO ratio last year.

I didn’t mention it because it was last year. Connor is a decent player, but IMO, a role player at best. He is mentally tough, but really has some anger management issues....the apple don’t fall too far from the tree.

 

[Chekster1]

It's hard to measure all the things that Connor does for this team - I think that Joe T should play more, but I wouldn't necessarily play Connor less!

 

[Quintana]

...the apple don’t fall too far from the tree.

are you calling your old man a judgmental douche?

 

[hawkeyeinmo]

You forgot to list Austin Ash’s stats. Using this type of comparison he also deserves more minutes!

 

[BBHawk]

I didn’t mention it because it was last year. Connor is a decent player, but IMO, a role player at best. He is mentally tough, but really has some anger management issues....the apple don’t fall too far from the tree.

He has rarely had a temper problem, bringing that up is just ****wittage. I would bet that any coach in the B1G would want CMac on his team.

 

[HawkRugged17]

 

[bumper52]

are you calling your old man a judgmental douche?

 

[Hawk_4shur]

Well, from these stats I'm not sure if anything is obvious. All 4 are really good players. JT makes big plays and big mistakes. PM & KM could be stars someday, but right now most of their stats have been accumulated in the second half of blowouts.

I don't see assists listed, which I would think would be good for CMac, and I don't see TO's, which would also be good for CMac and not so good for JT.

Besides all that, the distribution of minutes is commensurate with experience.

I like having CMac on the court, especially when he is surrounded by really good offensive players.

 

[Mohawkeye]

I didn’t mention it because it was last year. Connor is a decent player, but IMO, a role player at best. He is mentally tough, but really has some anger management issues....the apple don’t fall too far from the tree.

Anger issues? Geezes, give me more then, please. I wish all of our players were as "angry" and tough.

Conner is getting 23 minutes a game and deserves it. He runs the offense better than JBo or Toussant, is a better passer and plays tough defense. He's a decent rebounder. I think the real question, not that its a big deal, is maybe Keegan should get more of PMac's minutes, but I really like the offensive rebounding and defensive disruption PMac brings to the front of the press. Keep in mind, you want to get the freshmen as many minutes as possible early on in the season to give them a chance to grow and prove themselves. Depth will be needed.

 

[kceasthawk]

Well, I think the entire Iowa fan base should care. Obviously,stats don’t tell the entire story. Looking at these, however, it’s pretty clear Joe and Keegan deserve more minutes, especially ahead of Daddy’s boys. Playing merely role players at best ahead of two clearly two better players and athletes...what’s not to understand about this? Daddy ball in the Big 10. Why doesn’t Fran sign his 8th grade boy? Did Fran tutor under Lickleiter?

Seriously? You are comparing Fran playing Connor (who led the NATION) in assist to TO last year, and PMac who was a 4star top 100-150 player coming out of high school to Lick playing little Johnny? Seriously? Pat needs to settle in no doubt, but I'd bet he has a great career at Iowa before its all said and done. Cmac isn't really even playing point guard now, so your comparison for Joe T needs to be Jbo and he is definetly struggling. Even the game he made 7 threes he shot 16 times to get them, which isn't really all that hot shooting when someone gets hot. both Joe W and CJF were more like 5 for 7 which is more like it when your a good shooter in any one game.

 

[bumper52]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

 

[HawkInArk]

I didn’t mention it because it was last year.

Lol exactly.

That was LAST YEAR!

But I don't think he has actual anger management issues...come on now.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to Connor. If you want to argue playing Toussaint more than look at JBo not Connor. I'm a huge fan of Joe and think he should play more but get Bohannon's minutes not Connor. Because if Jbo's shot isn't on he's more of a liability than an asset out on the floor. Connor has earned his minutes. He takes care of the ball, rarely makes a dumb play and with a team full of shooters he is one guy who isn't going to demand or take careless forced shots. He can guard 1-4 and with different lineups can play him at multiple positions which brings added value. He brings that leadership quality to the team and as Frank Garza says he's the General when he's out on the floor. Plus along with Luka they bring some well needed toughness previous teams under Fran have sometimes lacked. As a coach you should know the value of a guy like him who does all the little things and has the intangibles that don't always show up on the stat sheet.

As for Murray over Patrick I'm in total agreement. Patrick should be the 9th man in the rotation. He plays too weak when he's around the basket on both ends of the floor including on the boards. No excuse like the Gonzaga game when he comes off the bench before JoeT when Nunge and him were the first two subs in.

 

[SotaHawk87]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

If this was true you wouldn’t be sharing half baked stats. You’d be able to see the impact a CM has on a team. I guess not..

 

[unoHawkeye]

If “daddy ball” is the price for having a top 5 team in the country, then sign me up

 

[McIlraveysMullet]

I coached high school bb for 25 years.

I wonder why you never made it beyond HS coaching with this stellar analysis?

 

[24 so far]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

I think you have a legitimate argument to some degree, and small sample size stats, along with the unmeaserable variables. Thanks for taking the time.

All are serviceable players. I don't agree with the anger management thing for CMac, but to each his own.

I don't think many would argue that Keegan should get more minutes and see how that goes against Big Ten opposition. Connor is a proven commodity, so there is that even if his stats don't jump off the page.

 

[SSG T]

I'll be honest, my only real complaint with Connor or Pat are that I wish both would shoot fewer threes. I can't really complain about much else with either. I love Keegan, but I don't know who you take minutes away from to give him, and Joe T just needs to be under control more. I would play him more against more athletic guards (like Suggs) than JBo, but otherwise, he's probably at about the right spot on the team currently.

But, in looking at who's the best player among the four that the OP listed, Connor is, and he's playing the most minutes of them.

 

[Hammer93]

Keagan deserves the minutes Pat is getting now. Just swap the amount of time. I guess I don't know what the coaching staff is seeing that shows Pat having better success then Keagan at this time.

I think JBO should come off the bench and let JT start. He really adds speed on the floor that we lack with Conner, JBO, CJF, and GARZA on the floor together.

Just my opinion.

 

[Chaser Daddy]

Connor is super valuable and he should be playing. He may not fill up the stat sheet but his toughness and smarts stand out to me. Joe T should be starting over JBo. Keegan has done a lot of good things but Patrick is really talented and should be playing as much as he is. Fran has done a better job than I expected with rotations other than JBo but that is skewed by the cold shooting.

 

[anon_ts5cfra6drv7r]

Wrong, Conner and Joe T.

PMac and Keegan seemed way too raw against a good Gonzaga team.

 

[ThisHawks4u]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

Given your win % obviously not that well.

 

[BBHawk]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

"Daddy ball"?

Both kids were top 150 in HS. They are both good players, and not getting minutes just because of "daddy". You may have been a coach but you are out of line here. Way out of line.

 

[silasstarr]

Anger issues? Geezes, give me more then, please. I wish all of our players were as "angry" and tough.

Conner is getting 23 minutes a game and deserves it. He runs the offense better than JBo or Toussant, is a better passer and plays tough defense. He's a decent rebounder. I think the real question, not that its a big deal, is maybe Keegan should get more of PMac's minutes, but I really like the offensive rebounding and defensive disruption PMac brings to the front of the press. Keep in mind, you want to get the freshmen as many minutes as possible early on in the season to give them a chance to grow and prove themselves. Depth will be needed.

I agree with everything you said outside of Connor playing tough defense, at least in the Gonzaga game.

 

[KcTo]

I think Keegan has earned minutes from everyone not named Garza or Wieskamp....

 

[bumper52]

I wonder why you never made it beyond HS coaching with this stellar analysis?

Never really was interested in coaching college. I did interview for the Simpson job one year...mainly because I taught English and trying to juggle teaching and coaching was tough. I thought a school in the Iowa conference would be a good fit for me. However, the recruiting was something I felt would even take more time away from my family. The timing wasn’t right with both my kids in high school. At least I got to see them everyday in school. Plus, my was a teacher and I would have taken a pay cut to go to Simpson. I’m proud of what I accomplished as a high school coach...not so much the wins, but the great kids I had and the rapport and lifelong friendships. Made a lot of mistakes through the years. At the end of each season it seemed like there were always 2 or 3 players that I thought deserved more playing. In the end, winning really was not a priority for me. But more importantly, I lost the desire to prepare players for the will to win. That’s not good when you are a coach.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

Keagan deserves the minutes Pat is getting now. Just swap the amount of time. I guess I don't know what the coaching staff is seeing that shows Pat having better success then Keagan at this time.

PMac has 2.8 minutes per game more. Most of those minutes (most of everyone's minutes) are against inferior competition.

Maybe Fran knows KM is better and is playing PMac to "get better". IDK. But let's see how it shakes out in the B1G.

 

[bozotheclown]

Given your win % obviously not that well.

So then a roughly 75% winning percentage isn’t good to you? Pretty high bar I’d say 😯

 

[iahawks10]

It’s kind of funny that we heard a lot about “daddy ball” three years ago when Connor was coming up with the Hawks. Everyone seemed to shut up about that after realizing what an asset it is to have a guy like Connor on your team and they were proven wrong in regards to “daddy ball”.

Something tells me in two or three years we’ll be hearing crickets chirping again when Patrick is a junior/senior. For the past three years Connor has been outstanding at feeding the post. Many times, he seems to be the only one on the team able to even feed the post, yet the OP omitted those stats from his post. Seems like something you’d want and need given that Iowa has by far the best big man in the country.

Either way, it is odd to say the least from such an Iowa HS coaching legend.

 

[Franko_74]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

Are you going to have Joe guarding the 6’10” guys that Connor has been guarding? How is Joe vs. Connor even a question?

 

[BBHawk]

It’s kind of funny that we heard a lot about “daddy ball” three years ago when Connor was coming up with the Hawks. Everyone seemed to shut up about that after realizing what an asset it is to have a guy like Connor on your team and they were proven wrong in regards to “daddy ball”.

Something tells me in two or three years we’ll be hearing crickets chirping again when Patrick is a junior/senior. For the past three years Connor has been outstanding at feeding the post. Many times, he seems to be the only one on the team able even feed the post, yet the OP omitted those stats from his post. Seems like something you’d want and need given that Iowa has by far the best big man in the country.

Either way, it is odd to say the least from such an Iowa HS coaching legend.

As of Marth 2019, there are 2 Iowa High School coaches with exactly 383 wins. Bob Berggren (370 losses for a total of 753 games) and Gordie Jorgensen (377 losses for a total of 760 games). The OP said he retired so either the OP is lying or he was not a head HS coach in Iowa. I kind of doubt that he was ever a head coach, high school or otherwise. If so, I seriously doubt he would come in an anonymous board to throw this stuff against the wall. That takes a "special" person.

 

[relishingwinning18]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

You probably have a keen eye, and therefore know that Connor and joe aren’t playing the same position right?

 

[iahawks10]

The best part about this thread (and there are many) is that the coaching legend questioned if Fran studied under Lickliter (or Lickleiter as he called him).

I believe he did OP. Can’t you see the similar results? You should have stayed retired.

 

[HawkLogic]

Are you going to have Joe guarding the 6’10” guys that Connor has been guarding? How is Joe vs. Connor even a question?

I guess you don't have much visualization capability. Conner guarding PF's/bigs because he is 3rd tallest guy in starting lineup. That is the problem. If you play more Keegan, you don't have Connor being mis-matched. JoeT gets PG minutes. Connor can also get PG minutes. Connor can play positions 1-4 so there are plenty of minutes available for him. JBo loses minutes in this scenario.

If you play a team like the Illini that are 4 out, 1 in..then smaller ball with Connor as 2nd PG or PF however you want to define it.

As for Pmac, Fran sees his kid as a "3" not as a "4" and Pmac has played a lot when JoeW is on bench. Keegan has been playing "4" and been sharing time with Connor/Nunge, which means not much PT.
However Keegan appears to be the best rebounder/defender, so one would think he deserves more PT and has more upside as a "4" than say Connor does, at least vs bigger teams.

 

[hawkeyeinmo]

I coached high school bb for 25 years. 513 games...383 wins. I feel I understand the game pretty well. I know daddy ball when I see it. I never said Connor or Patrick aren’t good players. Would other Big 10 want them? Probably. But chances are they wouldn’t be starting or getting the minutes they are getting at Iowa. I know Toussaint doesn’t get the ball into Garza as well as Connor. But he brings much more to the floor than Connor. I feel he is deserving of more minutes. He was sensational in 2nd half against the Zags. Not just that game, but I feel he has turned the tables. He brings quickness and defensive intensity that we haven’t seen at Iowa in many years. Does he play too fast and commit unforced turnovers? Yes, he does. But way fewer than last year. As far as Patrick, he needs another year. He deserves some minutes, but not more than Murray. Patrick will probably be a guy to match up with because of his length....but he has a way to go. Murray is by far a better player with more athleticism. And no, my dad wasn’t a douche bag and neither am I.

I hope you were a better teacher than you were a coach but I highly doubt it. Referring to Connor and Patrick as “Daddy’s boys”. You believe you have SUCH a keen eye that after a handful of games Murray deserves starter minutes? Connor anger issues? Obviously you are some nerdy English teacher, the school needed a basketball coach and you were handed the job. Classy coaches don’t refer to other coaches kids as “Daddy’s boys”. That alone makes you a douche bag.