ADVERTISEMENT

Nobel Prize winning Scientist ridicules Obamas take on Climate Change.

The left really painted themselves into a corner with this CAGW religion. They say temps can only go one way - UP. So when they remain level, or when they trend down again sometime in the future (planetary biorhythms) the only reply they can offer is, "See, more proof that global warming is real."

When the sun rises tomorrow, that will also be more proof that CAGW is real. Any weather event is more proof that CAGW is real. Saying CAGW is real is more proof that CAGW is real. Remember how religion works. When someone talks to God, that's just more proof that he's real.

I get religion, it feels like a helping hand to deal with the harshness of reality.

CAGW is kinda perverse when you think it about it. It's aim is to tell people the successful path in life is to create more harshness for oneself. You would think the Amish and the Gorians would embrace each other more.
 
Interesting that it's just LC and HR talking about catastrophic. Must be an attempt to poison the well. Tired old rhetorical tricks to short circuit the debate. BAU for the team of sophists.
 
The left really painted themselves into a corner with this CAGW religion. They say temps can only go one way - UP. So when they remain level, or when they trend down again sometime in the future (planetary biorhythms) the only reply they can offer is, "See, more proof that global warming is real."

When the sun rises tomorrow, that will also be more proof that CAGW is real. Any weather event is more proof that CAGW is real. Saying CAGW is real is more proof that CAGW is real. Remember how religion works. When someone talks to God, that's just more proof that he's real.

I get religion, it feels like a helping hand to deal with the harshness of reality.

CAGW is kinda perverse when you think it about it. It's aim is to tell people the successful path in life is to create more harshness for oneself. You would think the Amish and the Gorians would embrace each other more.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.
 
I don't care about it really, the world will change and adapt the way it pleases. Climate change is of no concern to me. Let the libs whine and worry all they want. They are all going to die regardless, and the world will still be here long after we are all dead.
That's a disappointing and immoral position. You are basically saying you don't care about all the harm that will be done to so many innocents. And then you slide into one of the stupidest of the denier memes - as if anyone who is sensibly concerned about GW has ever said or even implied that the planet would cease to exist. Sheesh!
 
That's a disappointing and immoral position. You are basically saying you don't care about all the harm that will be done to so many innocents. And then you slide into one of the stupidest of the denier memes - as if anyone who is sensibly concerned about GW has ever said or even implied that the planet would cease to exist. Sheesh!
You forget about his mutant DNA that will make his seed the master race after he kills off the rest of life on earth.
 
That's a disappointing and immoral position. You are basically saying you don't care about all the harm that will be done to so many innocents. And then you slide into one of the stupidest of the denier memes - as if anyone who is sensibly concerned about GW has ever said or even implied that the planet would cease to exist. Sheesh!
adapt and overcome Parser.
 
Interesting that it's just LC and HR talking about catastrophic. Must be an attempt to poison the well. Tired old rhetorical tricks to short circuit the debate. BAU for the team of sophists.
Whoa, Nellie. Are you again trying to weasel out of what the public face of your religion is saying? Because if "catastrophic" doesn't fit something that poses the greatest threat in the world to the United States, then please suggest another word and I'll use it, instead. And tell Parser and his ilk to cool their jets when raving about how it's immoral to disagree with them and how the "innocents" will be slaughtered (or whatever will happen to them).

Meanwhile, why don't you answer at least some of my questions? I'll even limit to one very, very easy one, since you've said I've been making incorrect assumptions about it:

Q: What do you think is agreed upon by 97% of scientists that I do not agree with?
 
Christ on a crutch, the limited vocabulary skills on this board are surreal.

So 97% of scientists think I'm wrong to believe human activity may have a role in climate change? That's good to know.

And nice job ignoring my reply.
It's very frustrating. It's why I find myself posting and visiting this site. It's amazing how you could type "I love pizza" and the minions come out in full force and say, "how in the hell could you hate pizza".
 
It's very frustrating. It's why I find myself posting and visiting this site. It's amazing how you could type "I love pizza" and the minions come out in full force and say, "how in the hell could you hate pizza".
They want you to hate pizza, it's not that they care about any certain pizza, it's that they can call you a pizza hater.
 
The left really painted themselves into a corner with this CAGW religion. They say temps can only go one way - UP. So when they remain level, or when they trend down again sometime in the future (planetary biorhythms) the only reply they can offer is, "See, more proof that global warming is real."

When the sun rises tomorrow, that will also be more proof that CAGW is real. Any weather event is more proof that CAGW is real. Saying CAGW is real is more proof that CAGW is real. Remember how religion works. When someone talks to God, that's just more proof that he's real.

I get religion, it feels like a helping hand to deal with the harshness of reality.

CAGW is kinda perverse when you think it about it. It's aim is to tell people the successful path in life is to create more harshness for oneself. You would think the Amish and the Gorians would embrace each other more.
This is what they did when reports said there's been no/little warming over the past 15 years. Then they went into spin mode and said the excess warming went to the deep ocean. After people mocked that argument they then came out with "there's been no pause in warming". It would actually be kind of funny if these yahoos didn't have so much influence in gov't policies.
 
Whoa, Nellie. Are you again trying to weasel out of what the public face of your religion is saying? Because if "catastrophic" doesn't fit something that poses the greatest threat in the world to the United States, then please suggest another word and I'll use it, instead. And tell Parser and his ilk to cool their jets when raving about how it's immoral to disagree with them and how the "innocents" will be slaughtered (or whatever will happen to them).

Meanwhile, why don't you answer at least some of my questions? I'll even limit to one very, very easy one, since you've said I've been making incorrect assumptions about it:

Q: What do you think is agreed upon by 97% of scientists that I do not agree with?
There you go again breaking all your own rules making assumption and berating religion. Tsk-tsk. I've answered all your pertinent questions. 97% of papers on climate that take a position on cause agree global warming is happening and we humans are the cause.

That differs quite a bit from your position that man might be the cause and that responsibility might be comparable to the responsibility man had for climate change when dinosaurs walked, which is to say none at all. When you adopt the consensus position, you will no longer be a denier. At that point we can talk about if it will even be catastrophic. But not until you stop denying the evidance. Push the break and I'll know you're someone to take seriously.
 
There you go again breaking all your own rules making assumption and berating religion. Tsk-tsk. I've answered all your pertinent questions. 97% of papers on climate that take a position on cause agree global warming is happening and we humans are the cause.

That differs quite a bit from your position that man might be the cause and that responsibility might be comparable to the responsibility man had for climate change when dinosaurs walked, which is to say none at all. When you adopt the consensus position, you will no longer be a denier. At that point we can talk about if it will even be catastrophic. But not until you stop denying the evidance. Push the break and I'll know you're someone to take seriously.
First, I think you are incorrect in your assumption. I don't think 97% of scientists think human activity is "the" cause. I think 97% of scientists think human activity is among the causes. I also don't think 97% of scientists think climate change poses a huge threat to humankind. In other words, I think the consensus you want me to embrace isn't really a consensus at all.
Second, I am not denying evidence. I am questioning the comments, actions and track record of some of the people who interpret the evidence. As I have said roughly a zillion times, a lot of these people are behaving in ways that I associate with flim-flam men.
Third, why are YOU denying evidence of chicanery, dishonesty, etc., perpetrated by some of the people whose projections you cite? Why can't you at the very least say that you wish they hadn't done those things because it makes the case harder to sell? I think it is for the same reason that Joe couldn't bring himself to admit the statements made about the arctic ice; you are so committed to the faith that you cannot brook any questioning of it at all. That ain't the scientific method.
 
Third, why are YOU denying evidence of chicanery, dishonesty, etc., perpetrated by some of the people whose projections you cite? Why can't you at the very least say that you wish they hadn't done those things because it makes the case harder to sell? I think it is for the same reason that Joe couldn't bring himself to admit the statements made about the arctic ice; you are so committed to the faith that you cannot brook any questioning of it at all. That ain't the scientific method.

And you'll bring up Climategate which has been investigated by seven different independent bodies and everyone involved has been cleared of ANY chicanery, dishonesty, etc. each time. Isn't is dishonest to use it as an example of dishonesty at this point?

Anthony Watt said he would accept the findings of the BEST group regardless of what they were...until they were made public and destroyed his premise. He then completely disavowed them and attacked the credibility of those involved. Why don't you EVER question the posters who link to Watt - the absolute epitome of dishonesty?

Judith Curry was part of the BEST team that confirmed the climate record as presented by Mann and others...her name is on their report as co-author. Yet she then tried to claim that the findings of her own team...the findings to which her name is attached...were wrong. Chicanery much, Judith? She's often quoted here...I assume you'll call out a poster for that, right?

At this point, it's the deniers who are employing dishonesty yet you have absolutely no problem with that. Quit pretending you don't have an agenda, LC. You're as transparent as pure air.
 
  • Like
Reactions: naturalmwa
First, I think you are incorrect in your assumption. I don't think 97% of scientists think human activity is "the" cause. I think 97% of scientists think human activity is among the causes. I also don't think 97% of scientists think climate change poses a huge threat to humankind. In other words, I think the consensus you want me to embrace isn't really a consensus at all.
Second, I am not denying evidence. I am questioning the comments, actions and track record of some of the people who interpret the evidence. As I have said roughly a zillion times, a lot of these people are behaving in ways that I associate with flim-flam men.
Third, why are YOU denying evidence of chicanery, dishonesty, etc., perpetrated by some of the people whose projections you cite? Why can't you at the very least say that you wish they hadn't done those things because it makes the case harder to sell? I think it is for the same reason that Joe couldn't bring himself to admit the statements made about the arctic ice; you are so committed to the faith that you cannot brook any questioning of it at all. That ain't the scientific method.
There you go again making assumptions, trying to move the goal posts. Look it up, I've correctly stated the consensus position. The consensus doesn't take a position on the dangers or the policy positions. It simply says AGW is real and significant.

The nice thing about a consensus is it answers your second objection. The experts have looking into the film-flam closer than you or I and they still support the consensus. The best evidance backs my position. The weak (flim-flam) evidence supports your denier position. It's not a one way burden here you know. We both agree the climate change is real. There are competing theories that try to explain it. My data set is far better supported than yours. Your position is not neutral, you just picked the weak argument.

Why would you think I would have trouble saying I wish all my allies would act with integrity? I wish they all would, and test after test show they do by and large (for you WWJD). Why don't you say you wish all your allies would act with integrity? Isn't that a silly question? Lol at your religion comment, you can't stick to your own rules again, just more rhetorical obfuscation. Have no fear fear LC, I can see you through your smoke. I see you driving that bus over the cliff.
 
There you go again making assumptions, trying to move the goal posts. Look it up, I've correctly stated the consensus position. The consensus doesn't take a position on the dangers or the policy positions. It simply says AGW is real and significant.

The nice thing about a consensus is it answers your second objection. The experts have looking into the film-flam closer than you or I and they still support the consensus. The best evidance backs my position. The weak (flim-flam) evidence supports your denier position. It's not a one way burden here you know. We both agree the climate change is real. There are competing theories that try to explain it. My data set is far better supported than yours. Your position is not neutral, you just picked the weak argument.

Why would you think I would have trouble saying I wish all my allies would act with integrity? I wish they all would, and test after test show they do by and large (for you WWJD). Why don't you say you wish all your allies would act with integrity? Isn't that a silly question? Lol at your religion comment, you can't stick to your own rules again, just more rhetorical obfuscation. Have no fear fear LC, I can see you through your smoke. I see you driving that bus over the cliff.
Please support that position. First off, define "significant". 97% agree warming is happening and man is contributing to the warming. I don't buy the 97% believe it's "significant" but it depends on what your/their definition of significant is. We could have differences in opinion on what's significant.
 
There you go again making assumptions, trying to move the goal posts. Look it up, I've correctly stated the consensus position. The consensus doesn't take a position on the dangers or the policy positions. It simply says AGW is real and significant.

The nice thing about a consensus is it answers your second objection. The experts have looking into the film-flam closer than you or I and they still support the consensus. The best evidance backs my position. The weak (flim-flam) evidence supports your denier position. It's not a one way burden here you know. We both agree the climate change is real. There are competing theories that try to explain it. My data set is far better supported than yours. Your position is not neutral, you just picked the weak argument.

Why would you think I would have trouble saying I wish all my allies would act with integrity? I wish they all would, and test after test show they do by and large (for you WWJD). Why don't you say you wish all your allies would act with integrity? Isn't that a silly question? Lol at your religion comment, you can't stick to your own rules again, just more rhetorical obfuscation. Have no fear fear LC, I can see you through your smoke. I see you driving that bus over the cliff.
I'm not trying to move the goal posts. I'm trying to figure out what you think they are. If you have stated your view of the consensus position, I don't recall it. Please humor me and state it again.

Once again you invent a position for me and criticize me for holding it. In truth, have no position on the science. I do have a position on the words and actions of some of the proponents of AGW theory. I have made this so clear, so many times, that I cannot believe you aren't aware of it.

I suggest we do something that I don't recall us doing before: Define your position (which I assume is what you believe to be the consensus position) on the science. Please answer these questions.

1. How much do you think the Earth will warm in the next 10, 50, 100 and 200 years? That is, what do you think the average temperature will be, compared to this year, at those times?

2. How much of this warming do you attribute to human activity? A rough estimate is fine. You seem to attribute all of it to humans. Is that the case?

3. What do you think the result of this will be? Flooding in Miami and New York? Disappearance of the ice at the poles? Extinction of species? Food shortages? The demise of the snowmobile industry? In other words, what horrors will be wreaked upon those innocents Parser is so worried about?

4. What do you think Americans can do to ameliorate the problem? Are there steps we could take that would halt the warming trend?
 
Please support that position. First off, define "significant". 97% agree warming is happening and man is contributing to the warming. I don't buy the 97% believe it's "significant" but it depends on what your/their definition of significant is. We could have differences in opinion on what's significant.
Significant as in the cause of the warming that can be observed over the last half century. 97% of the papers taking a position on the subject agreed with the consensus position that humans are causing global warming.

Based on our abstract ratings, we found that just over 4,000 papers took a position on the cause of global warming, 97.1% of which endorsed human-caused global warming. In the scientist self-ratings, nearly 1,400 papers were rated as taking a position, 97.2% of which endorsed human-caused global warming. Many papers captured in our literature search simply investigated an issue related to climate change without taking a position on its cause.

Our survey found that the consensus has grown slowly over time, and reached about 98% as of 2011. Our results are also consistent with several previous surveys finding a 97% consensus amongst climate experts on the human cause of global warming.

Several studies have shown that people who are aware of scientific consensus on human-caused global warming are more likely to support government action to curb greenhouse gas emissions. This was most recently shown by a paper just published in the journal Climatic Change. People will generally defer to the judgment of experts, and they trust climate scientists on the subject of global warming.

However, vested interests have long realized this and engaged in a campaign to misinform the public about the scientific consensus. For example, a memo from communications strategist Frank Luntz leaked in 2002 advised Republicans,

"Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly. Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate"

This campaign has been successful. A 2012 poll from US Pew Research Center found less than half of Americans thought scientists agreed humans were causing global warming. The media has assisted in this public misconception, with most climate stories "balanced" with a "skeptic" perspective. However, this results in making the 2–3% seem like 50%. In trying to achieve "balance", the media has actually created a very unbalanced perception of reality. As a result, people believe scientists are still split about what's causing global warming, and therefore there is not nearly enough public support or motivation to solve the problem.


http://www.theguardian.com/environm.../may/16/climate-change-scienceofclimatechange

It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.

In this Summary for Policymakers, the following terms have been used to indicate the assessed likelihood of an outcome or a result: extremely likely: 95–100%


http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/
 
I'm not trying to move the goal posts. I'm trying to figure out what you think they are. If you have stated your view of the consensus position, I don't recall it. Please humor me and state it again.

Once again you invent a position for me and criticize me for holding it. In truth, have no position on the science. I do have a position on the words and actions of some of the proponents of AGW theory. I have made this so clear, so many times, that I cannot believe you aren't aware of it.

I suggest we do something that I don't recall us doing before: Define your position (which I assume is what you believe to be the consensus position) on the science. Please answer these questions.

1. How much do you think the Earth will warm in the next 10, 50, 100 and 200 years? That is, what do you think the average temperature will be, compared to this year, at those times?

2. How much of this warming do you attribute to human activity? A rough estimate is fine. You seem to attribute all of it to humans. Is that the case?

3. What do you think the result of this will be? Flooding in Miami and New York? Disappearance of the ice at the poles? Extinction of species? Food shortages? The demise of the snowmobile industry? In other words, what horrors will be wreaked upon those innocents Parser is so worried about?

4. What do you think Americans can do to ameliorate the problem? Are there steps we could take that would halt the warming trend?
What position do you think I've invented for you? The whole point of this is to get your position nailed down, so clear it up before we continue.

Consensus: 97% of the papers taking a position on the subject agreed humans are causing global warming.

Questions 1-4 aren't germane until you agree with the consensus and then my answer would be to research and find the consensus on those questions in the experpert community.
 
What position do you think I've invented for you? The whole point of this is to get your position nailed down, so clear it up before we continue.

Consensus: 97% of the papers taking a position on the subject agreed humans are causing global warming.

Questions 1-4 aren't germane until you agree with the consensus and then my answer would be to research and find the consensus on those questions in the experpert community.
LOL! You won't answer the questions? They are the most basic thing to this entire discussion.

You persist in saying I have taken a position on the AGW science. I have not.

You only answered one question, and you seem to have gotten it wrong. I just did some Googling on the 97% consensus. One thing seems to be in agreement, both in explanations by skeptics and by supporters who cite the figure: A majority of the papers studied took no position on whether humans were causing global warming. The 97% refers to the percentage of those who did take a position. So what you just stated as the consensus position is not correct. In fact, slightly less than half the papers asserted human cause for warming. This was justified by supporters by saying that the fact of human cause was so widely accepted and unassailable that half the scientists didn't bother to mention it. That doesn't sound very scientific to me.

Please answer the other questions. They simply call for your opinion, not any supporting data or anything like that. I've told you -- many, many, MANY times -- what my opinion is. Why are you reluctant to share yours?
 
But he won't research any of it. Here are some reasonably accurate answers, however:

1. How much do you think the Earth will warm in the next 10, 50, 100 and 200 years? That is, what do you think the average temperature will be, compared to this year, at those times?

The answer is not as 'simple', as you would like. It depends on how much we emit in the next hundred years, and IPCC has put out 4 'scenarios' for what we can expect dependent on what the actual emissions are. This is ONE of the 'inputs' to models that is updated retrospectively, because no one can predict a 2007 recession and economic slowdown which stalls emissions a few year.

But, right now we are warming 0.16°C per decade; if that rate remains flat, it means a MINIMUM of 1.6°C in the next 100 years. However, that rate has been going up (with accelerating emissions); thus, staying BELOW 2.0°C by 2100 is rather dicey at this point. And CO2 remains in the atmosphere for 100-300 years, so that 'forcing' will mean temperatures may not level off for many hundreds of years, perhaps up to 1000 years (if the oceans stop being a net 'absorber' of CO2, levels will spike; if permafrost starts becoming a net emitter of CO2 and methane; if we destabilize methane hydrates in the oceans - all of these are long-term feedbacks/tipping points which have LIKELY accelerated warming in the paleo record; once we initiate those responses, global warming will accelerate regardless of what we do, because we've triggered a point of no return).
2. How much of this warming do you attribute to human activity? A rough estimate is fine. You seem to attribute all of it to humans. Is that the case?

Nearly all of the "97%" attribute more than half of the current warming to human-cause influences. More recent analysis puts the recent warming at >90% human cause, because there are simply NO natural feedbacks/forcings which can match the data. Solar output has dropped in the past 50-70 years, and there are not many other natural options left. Plus, CO2 levels have spiked from 280ppm to >400 ppm; we KNOW that we are the source of these CO2 levels because isotope analysis shows very clearly that the CO2 is from sequestered oil and coal sources, NOT natural biota.

3. What do you think the result of this will be? Flooding in Miami and New York? Disappearance of the ice at the poles? Extinction of species? Food shortages? The demise of the snowmobile industry? In other words, what horrors will be wreaked upon those innocents Parser is so worried about?

Flooding will not be limited to "Miami and New York"; the West Antarctic ice sheet has already destabilized, and will continue to erode for many hundreds of years UNLESS the warming going on stops very soon and re-stabilizes it. That ice sheet alone will account for >6 feet of sea level rise. This will ultimately devastate the U.S. East coast, and coastal regions all over the world. More than 1 billion people live along coasts and are likely to be displaced in the long haul. You can Google up the specific details if I have any numbers inaccurate here - this WILL NOT happen in my lifetime or yours, but our grandkids will probably start seeing the impacts and will be stuck with the costs and impacts. It is also highly likely that continued emissions will impact sea life as a major food source.

Destabilization of livable land areas, food shortages and water shortages (which are happening already, and warming will only exacerbate them) will lead to regional and possibly global conflicts over resources.

4. What do you think Americans can do to ameliorate the problem? Are there steps we could take that would halt the warming trend?

Accelerate lowering our CO2 emissions by 2030. The world needs to be 'carbon neutral' within the next 50 years to minimize the long-term impacts. That cannot happen overnight, but we need to start somewhere.

Follow the Chinese lead with renewable energy sources. Push back on the major electricity providers and force them to pay net-metered rates for private solar generation (instead of the paltry amounts currently being paid). Provide infrastructure for local off-grid storage - instead of building new major power lines, start identifying where to build storage facilities and infrastructure to support them now, so in 5-10 years when battery technologies mature and are cheap, we are ready to 'plug & play' immediately. Put R&D resources and tax credits into energy storage to get it to the point it is economically viable.

Put together international agreements on tax-neutral carbon taxes (revenues go back to consumers, or go to R&D efforts on batteries and renewables). Put significant tariffs on products originating from or shipping from countries who do not support the agreement, or who are not in compliance. If you make your stuff with carbon-neutral energy, you then have a major economic advantage over those using oil or coal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: naturalmwa
A majority of the papers studied took no position on whether humans were causing global warming. The 97% refers to the percentage of those who did take a position. So what you just stated as the consensus position is not correct. In fact, slightly less than half the papers asserted human cause for warming.

This argument cuts both ways: if you look at papers which specifically REFUTE AGW, that number is something like 0.03%. A recent study by another scientist (I believe a science advisor from the Bush I era) found 99.7% consensus when reviewing ~70,000 publications using this criteria.

Many papers DO NOT re-iterate human cause warming, because it is irrelevant to their study, and it is generally accepted. You do not see ANY major mechanical engineering papers citing Newtonian Laws of Motion, because they are accepted and assumed to be correct; same thing here. You just don't want to accept it.
 
LOL! You won't answer the questions? They are the most basic thing to this entire discussion.

You persist in saying I have taken a position on the AGW science. I have not.

You only answered one question, and you seem to have gotten it wrong. I just did some Googling on the 97% consensus. One thing seems to be in agreement, both in explanations by skeptics and by supporters who cite the figure: A majority of the papers studied took no position on whether humans were causing global warming. The 97% refers to the percentage of those who did take a position. So what you just stated as the consensus position is not correct. In fact, slightly less than half the papers asserted human cause for warming. This was justified by supporters by saying that the fact of human cause was so widely accepted and unassailable that half the scientists didn't bother to mention it. That doesn't sound very scientific to me.

Please answer the other questions. They simply call for your opinion, not any supporting data or anything like that. I've told you -- many, many, MANY times -- what my opinion is. Why are you reluctant to share yours?
I did answer your question, my position is to follow the best expert advice. thats a very reasonable mature position. Why isn't it yours? You see by not following the experts, you have taken a position on AGW, you have denied it. You are not neutral when you insist your skepticism isn't satisfied by the overwhelming preponderance of the expert testimony.

Your take on the 97% isn't correct, I linked a source in a prior post or you could expand your googling. The consensus is as I stated. When science ascribes a cause to the warming, the answer is humans.
 
I did answer your question, my position is to follow the best expert advice. thats a very reasonable mature position. Why isn't it yours? You see by not following the experts, you have taken a position on AGW, you have denied it. You are not neutral when you insist your skepticism isn't satisfied by the overwhelming preponderance of the expert testimony.

Your take on the 97% isn't correct, I linked a source in a prior post or you could expand your googling. The consensus is as I stated. When science ascribes a cause to the warming, the answer is humans.
It would be a reasonable, mature position if there was such advice to follow. Which there is not. But that, of course, is my point in asking the questions and your reason for refusing to do so.

You pretend that there is one "best expert advice" and that 97% of scientists agree about it. In fact, they are all over the lot in terms of what to expect, when, and what result it will have.

If the answer for you is so simple, it won't take you even a minute to relay the "best expert advice," will it?

And your reading on the statistic is not the same as mine, which I garnered from defenders of it.

Finally, make up your mind. You keep proclaiming that you know my position on AGW, yet you keep asking me to state it. When I state it, you refuse to accept my answer and instead put forward your (mistaken) assumption.
 
But he won't research any of it. Here are some reasonably accurate answers, however:

1. How much do you think the Earth will warm in the next 10, 50, 100 and 200 years? That is, what do you think the average temperature will be, compared to this year, at those times?

The answer is not as 'simple', as you would like. It depends on how much we emit in the next hundred years, and IPCC has put out 4 'scenarios' for what we can expect dependent on what the actual emissions are. This is ONE of the 'inputs' to models that is updated retrospectively, because no one can predict a 2007 recession and economic slowdown which stalls emissions a few year.

But, right now we are warming 0.16°C per decade; if that rate remains flat, it means a MINIMUM of 1.6°C in the next 100 years. However, that rate has been going up (with accelerating emissions); thus, staying BELOW 2.0°C by 2100 is rather dicey at this point. And CO2 remains in the atmosphere for 100-300 years, so that 'forcing' will mean temperatures may not level off for many hundreds of years, perhaps up to 1000 years (if the oceans stop being a net 'absorber' of CO2, levels will spike; if permafrost starts becoming a net emitter of CO2 and methane; if we destabilize methane hydrates in the oceans - all of these are long-term feedbacks/tipping points which have LIKELY accelerated warming in the paleo record; once we initiate those responses, global warming will accelerate regardless of what we do, because we've triggered a point of no return).
2. How much of this warming do you attribute to human activity? A rough estimate is fine. You seem to attribute all of it to humans. Is that the case?

Nearly all of the "97%" attribute more than half of the current warming to human-cause influences. More recent analysis puts the recent warming at >90% human cause, because there are simply NO natural feedbacks/forcings which can match the data. Solar output has dropped in the past 50-70 years, and there are not many other natural options left. Plus, CO2 levels have spiked from 280ppm to >400 ppm; we KNOW that we are the source of these CO2 levels because isotope analysis shows very clearly that the CO2 is from sequestered oil and coal sources, NOT natural biota.

3. What do you think the result of this will be? Flooding in Miami and New York? Disappearance of the ice at the poles? Extinction of species? Food shortages? The demise of the snowmobile industry? In other words, what horrors will be wreaked upon those innocents Parser is so worried about?

Flooding will not be limited to "Miami and New York"; the West Antarctic ice sheet has already destabilized, and will continue to erode for many hundreds of years UNLESS the warming going on stops very soon and re-stabilizes it. That ice sheet alone will account for >6 feet of sea level rise. This will ultimately devastate the U.S. East coast, and coastal regions all over the world. More than 1 billion people live along coasts and are likely to be displaced in the long haul. You can Google up the specific details if I have any numbers inaccurate here - this WILL NOT happen in my lifetime or yours, but our grandkids will probably start seeing the impacts and will be stuck with the costs and impacts. It is also highly likely that continued emissions will impact sea life as a major food source.

Destabilization of livable land areas, food shortages and water shortages (which are happening already, and warming will only exacerbate them) will lead to regional and possibly global conflicts over resources.

4. What do you think Americans can do to ameliorate the problem? Are there steps we could take that would halt the warming trend?

Accelerate lowering our CO2 emissions by 2030. The world needs to be 'carbon neutral' within the next 50 years to minimize the long-term impacts. That cannot happen overnight, but we need to start somewhere.

Follow the Chinese lead with renewable energy sources. Push back on the major electricity providers and force them to pay net-metered rates for private solar generation (instead of the paltry amounts currently being paid). Provide infrastructure for local off-grid storage - instead of building new major power lines, start identifying where to build storage facilities and infrastructure to support them now, so in 5-10 years when battery technologies mature and are cheap, we are ready to 'plug & play' immediately. Put R&D resources and tax credits into energy storage to get it to the point it is economically viable.

Put together international agreements on tax-neutral carbon taxes (revenues go back to consumers, or go to R&D efforts on batteries and renewables). Put significant tariffs on products originating from or shipping from countries who do not support the agreement, or who are not in compliance. If you make your stuff with carbon-neutral energy, you then have a major economic advantage over those using oil or coal.
Thank you for answering the questions, Joe.
 
It would be a reasonable, mature position if there was such advice to follow. Which there is not. But that, of course, is my point in asking the questions and your reason for refusing to do so.

You pretend that there is one "best expert advice" and that 97% of scientists agree about it. In fact, they are all over the lot in terms of what to expect, when, and what result it will have.

If the answer for you is so simple, it won't take you even a minute to relay the "best expert advice," will it?

And your reading on the statistic is not the same as mine, which I garnered from defenders of it.

Finally, make up your mind. You keep proclaiming that you know my position on AGW, yet you keep asking me to state it. When I state it, you refuse to accept my answer and instead put forward your (mistaken) assumption.
Your reading of the stats are wrong.

Based on our abstract ratings, we found that just over 4,000 papers took a position on the cause of global warming, 97.1% of which endorsed human-caused global warming. In the scientist self-ratings, nearly 1,400 papers were rated as taking a position, 97.2% of which endorsed human-caused global warming.

Your characterization of my position is wrong. I've said repeatedly the consensus is about what is happening, not the future projections or policies. This is what the sophist does. You're not misunderstood, you're just unmasked. Baseline, until you pump the brake, you are a denier.
 
Your reading of the stats are wrong.



Your characterization of my position is wrong. I've said repeatedly the consensus is about what is happening, not the future projections or policies. This is what the sophist does. You're not misunderstood, you're just unmasked. Baseline, until you pump the brake, you are a denier.
This post makes even less sense than your earlier ones. I sense a bit of panic. You've been calling me names pretty regularly, but this might be the first post in which you've doubled down.

So are you telling me you, personally, have no expectations or ideas about how much the world will warm, over what time period, what the results will be, or what can be done about it? Just because you are conceding there is no consensus on these things doesn't mean you can't have an opinion.
 
It sounds like global warming isn't the only reason the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is melting:

Geothermal heat under the West Antarctic Ice Sheet has been found to be “surprisingly high” according to a new study, pointing to another threat to the already fragile ice sheet that is contributing directly to global sea level rise.

The readings from instrument results studying temperatures in sediments below Subglacial Lake Whillans, which lies beneath a half-mile beneath the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, were published on July 10 in the online journal Science Advances. Recent studies have shown the ice sheet is one of several on the frozen continent that is melting so fast “it’s like a switch was flipped, the Monitor reported in May.

The geothermal heat flux measured in the study amounted to about 285 milliwatts per square meter, equivalent to the heat output of one small LED Christmas tree light, Andrew Fisher, a professor of Earth and planetary sciences at UC Santa Cruz and lead author of the paper said in a statement released by the National Science Foundation.

While that may not sound significant, the study authors say the heat could be adding yet another source of heat stress to a fragile ice sheet already being warmed by several other sources. Scientists now need to get a better sense of the amount of geothermal heat under the rest of the ice sheet, Slawek Tulaczyk, co-author of the study and a professor of Earth and planetary sciences at UC Santa Cruz, said in the statement.

The article states:

"Antarctic ice has been frozen for centuries"

Which makes me ask - is that all? shouldn't it be hundreds of thousands of years or something like that, if it's such a drastic change that we need to cause economic deprivation to millions of people to make it stop?

Link to entire story below.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/Sc...h-heat-beneath-West-Antarctic-Ice-Sheet-video
 
Last edited:
This post makes even less sense than your earlier ones. I sense a bit of panic. You've been calling me names pretty regularly, but this might be the first post in which you've doubled down.

So are you telling me you, personally, have no expectations or ideas about how much the world will warm, over what time period, what the results will be, or what can be done about it? Just because you are conceding there is no consensus on these things doesn't mean you can't have an opinion.
I'm not the one on a run away bus, I have no reason to panic. I've accomplished my purpose in this discussion, to explain why we use the 97% stat and show why your position is faulty.

Now for solutions I prefer painless options so would advocate something like converting the nation to mostly nuclear power and using trade policy to force the rest of the world to green up. I would emphasize the clean air, water, protection of habitat and health aspects so as not to alarm your team unduly.
 
Which makes me ask - is that all? shouldn't it be hundreds of thousands of years or something like that, if it's such a drastic change that we need to cause economic deprivation to millions of people to make it stop?
Why would you think a massive infrastructure investment to convert the nation to green power would hurt the economy? It would be a huge years long jobs program that was entirely unable to be outsourced. We would literally save the planet and our pocketbook at once.
 
I did answer your question, my position is to follow the best expert advice. thats a very reasonable mature position. Why isn't it yours? You see by not following the experts, you have taken a position on AGW, you have denied it. You are not neutral when you insist your skepticism isn't satisfied by the overwhelming preponderance of the expert testimony.

Your take on the 97% isn't correct, I linked a source in a prior post or you could expand your googling. The consensus is as I stated. When science ascribes a cause to the warming, the answer is humans.

Are these "experts" only "experts" because you assume their credentials equate to making them such? How did you come to the conclusion that only the "experts" you follow are correct? There are several "experts" out there, just ask them. :)
 
Are these "experts" only "experts" because you assume their credentials equate to making them such? How did you come to the conclusion that only the "experts" you follow are correct? There are several "experts" out there, just ask them. :)
Credentials, that's usually the definition.
 
It sounds like global warming isn't the only reason the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is melting:

Geothermal heat under the West Antarctic Ice Sheet has been found to be “surprisingly high” according to a new study, pointing to another threat to the already fragile ice sheet that is contributing directly to global sea level rise.

The readings from instrument results studying temperatures in sediments below Subglacial Lake Whillans, which lies beneath a half-mile beneath the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, were published on July 10 in the online journal Science Advances. Recent studies have shown the ice sheet is one of several on the frozen continent that is melting so fast “it’s like a switch was flipped, the Monitor reported in May.

The geothermal heat flux measured in the study amounted to about 285 milliwatts per square meter, equivalent to the heat output of one small LED Christmas tree light, Andrew Fisher, a professor of Earth and planetary sciences at UC Santa Cruz and lead author of the paper said in a statement released by the National Science Foundation.

While that may not sound significant, the study authors say the heat could be adding yet another source of heat stress to a fragile ice sheet already being warmed by several other sources. Scientists now need to get a better sense of the amount of geothermal heat under the rest of the ice sheet, Slawek Tulaczyk, co-author of the study and a professor of Earth and planetary sciences at UC Santa Cruz, said in the statement.

The article states:

"Antarctic ice has been frozen for centuries"

Which makes me ask - is that all? shouldn't it be hundreds of thousands of years or something like that, if it's such a drastic change that we need to cause economic deprivation to millions of people to make it stop?

Link to entire story below.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/Sc...h-heat-beneath-West-Antarctic-Ice-Sheet-video

The flaw in your presumption here is that the geothermal input to the ice sheet is somehow 'new'.

It is not; that geothermal condition has existed for millennia, and was most likely present when the ice sheets formed. Only now, when adding in the warmer temperatures, it does help melt the ice faster. It is not, however, the reason that the Antarctic sheet has lost gigatons of ice in the last decade.

It is entirely possible that the mass-loss, due to the warming WE have triggered, is changing the geologic conditions and increasing the geothermal input, but I have seen no analysis or information that would support this. It is, however, entirely possible as we have seen substantial 'rebound' of the earth's crust in Greenland due to the land ice mass losses there - if the mass loss in Antarctica triggers a similar rebound, resulting in greater local geothermal activity, that would be yet another 'tipping point' for Antarctic glacial losses that we may have unwittingly triggered....
 
Credentials, that's usually the definition.

Credentials, like anything else are usually bought and paid for. Especially when it has to do with politically motivated agenda's.

I'm just giving you shat - could care less myself. :)
 
Finally, make up your mind. You keep proclaiming that you know my position on AGW, yet you keep asking me to state it. When I state it, you refuse to accept my answer and instead put forward your (mistaken) assumption.

You "position" is that you have no position. That's malarky. It's your hidey-hole so you can take your pot-shots and then throw up your hands and say "Hey, I'm just asking questions here". You are the HROT equivalent of Eddie Haskell - a reference our younger posters may not get but I'm sure you comprehend.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT