ADVERTISEMENT

Opinion Israel is at a crisis point: The world has had enough

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
77,579
59,104
113
By Jennifer Rubin
Columnist|
April 4, 2024 at 8:05 a.m. EDT





Israel’s strikes killing seven World Central Kitchen personnel, who were working for José Andrés’s nonprofit to feed the hungry in Gaza, were, by Israel’s account, a mistake. Saying that, however, does not absolve the country of responsibility for the latest tragedy in a war that has killed nearly 200 aid workers. Plainly, Israel has failed to construct or observe adequate rules of deconfliction to protect humanitarian aid workers.


Sign up for the Prompt 2024 newsletter for opinions on the biggest questions in politics

Moreover, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s statement that, in essence, mistakes happen in war is utterly insufficient — and revealing of his utter tone-deafness. Innocents do get killed — which is precisely why you want to avoid wars, carve out safe passage for innocents including humanitarian relief workers and make every effort to bring conflicts to a negotiated end.
“Several humanitarian groups said Tuesday that they would suspend their operations in Gaza after seven World Central Kitchen workers were killed in an Israeli strike, threatening already precarious deliveries to the aid-starved enclave,” The Post reported. “The strike sent shock waves through the international aid community. WCK and at least two other groups said they would pause their operations in Gaza.”



Israel has vowed to abide by the laws of war, but that requires its military action not “cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.” When massive civilian casualties including aid workers continue, there is reason to question compliance with international law.


A war launched for self-defense can lose legitimacy if the means of fighting violate international norms. Andrés’s plea for Israel to “stop restricting humanitarian aid, stop killing civilians and aid workers, and stop using food as a weapon” will resonate with many Americans. Accordingly, Israel cannot continue to fight for diminishing returns if it is not willing or able to protect innocents.
Israel seems to be wearing out the patience of even the Biden administration, arguably the most pro-Zionist in history. (Matters have gotten so bad that, before the latest strike, even Netanyahu’s BFF, former president Donald Trump, was telling Israel to wrap up the war.) The Times of Israel quotes an anonymous U.S. official furious that adequate measures to coordinate with aid workers are “only being put in place now.” Indeed, even in Israel there is recognition that not enough has been done. An Israeli official told the Times of Israel, “Soldiers are operating under immense pressure in very difficult conditions in which Hamas embeds itself within the civilian population, but the rules of engagement are designed to help deal with such conditions, and they’re too often being ignored.”



White House spokesman John Kirby was remarkably blunt. “We were outraged to learn of an IDF strike that killed a number of civilian humanitarian workers yesterday from the World Central Kitchen, which has been relentlessly working to get food to those who are hungry in Gaza,” he said on Tuesday. Expressing “hope” that the investigation’s results would be made public, Kirby declared, “This incident is emblematic of the larger problem and evidence of why distribution of aid in Gaza has been so challenging. But beyond the strike, what is clear is that the IDF must do much more to improve deconfliction processes so that civilians and humanitarian aid workers are protected.”
Later in the day, President Biden issued his own blistering statement, emphasizing that “this is not a stand-alone incident.” In some of his harshest language yet, he declared, “Israel has not done enough to protect aid workers trying to deliver desperately needed help to civilians. Incidents like yesterday’s simply should not happen.” He reminded Israel, “The United States has repeatedly urged Israel to deconflict their military operations against Hamas with humanitarian operations, in order to avoid civilian casualties.” Promising to do all the United States can to deliver aid to Gaza, Biden stressed: “I will continue to press Israel to do more to facilitate that aid. And we are pushing hard for an immediate cease-fire as part of a hostage deal.” Rarely have we seen Biden criticize Israel in such emotional terms.
Protests in Israel against the government had already grown in size and intensity before international fury erupted over the strikes. Demonstrations have expanded from weekly Saturday night vigils to support the hostages to days-long demonstrations challenging Netanyahu’s leadership of the war and hold on power. Tens of thousands of Israelis have taken to the streets on four consecutive nights to demand Netanyahu step down immediately. Tuesday night, some demonstrators who began at the Knesset moved to near Netanyahu’s home, where they clashed with police.



The combination of domestic and international pressure, not to mention scorching criticism from hostage families and even the Israel Defense Forces, has not yet forced Netanyahu from power. However, in a dramatic move, opposition war cabinet member Benny Gantz called for elections in September. That might accelerate pressure on Netanyahu to depart. (Netanyahu’s statements concerning the necessity of a Rafah operation — with no concrete plans provided to the United States on its execution, according to the administration — increasingly sound like a political strategy to raise the Biden administration’s ire, force Netanyahu’s right-wing partners to circle the wagons and extend the war indefinitely.)
In any event, the pressure from within Israel and the international community certainly has intensified on the besieged, overwhelmingly unpopular prime minister, who is also on trial on corruption charges. The vise must get tighter and opposition more dramatic — for instance, a national strike, a major IDF resignation, a threat to cut off U.S. military aid — if Netanyahu is to depart sooner rather than later. Put differently, only when consensus builds that he represents an existential threat to Israel will there be enough pressure to force him out during wartime.
When Netanyahu finally does depart, Israel will be left more isolated, unstable and bereft of goodwill than at any point in its history. It might take decades to recover from Netanyahu’s legacy.
 
I run into a few Israelis' here and there and I ask after Mr. Netanyahu every chance I get. He is not as unpopular as the media would have you think. His call for total destruction of Hamas is frankly the only reasonable course of action. Every other course of action is simply a ten or twenty year pause in the war effort.

..........................................................

The media is about as knee-jerk in each of the theaters of war, as they can be.

They do not want the "Good guys" to win anything ever again.

Simply fighting a war does not create a negotiable situation, really ever. There has to be a clear or pending winner before meaningful negotiation can take place.
 
Last edited:
I run into a few Israelis' here and there and I ask after Mr. Netanyahu every chance I get. He is not as unpopular as the media would have you think. His call for total destruction of Hamas is frankly the only reasonable course of action. Every other course of action is simply a ten or twenty year pause in the war effort.

..........................................................

The media is about as knee-jerk in each of the theaters of war, as they can be.

They do not want the "Good guys" to win anything ever again.

A war does not create a negotiable situation, really ever. There has to be a clear winner before meaningful negotiation can take place.
How about the intentional targeting of clearly marked humanitarian food trucks?
 
How about the intentional targeting of clearly marked humanitarian food trucks?
I am afraid you are putting spin on the situation, but as I said, it is way too early for either side to propose negotiation. Someone has to surrender or lose on the battlefield first. For Israel, any kind of pause is simply granting Hamas time to rebuild their Army ... They WILL return, even if it is a generation down the road.

Afghanistan is an excellent example. Someone in this country thought we had beaten on the Taliban "enough." ... so we quit the war which turned out to be a surrender. This same mindset is emerging with reference to Gaza.
 
Last edited:
Afghanistan is excellent example. Someone in this country thought we had beaten on the Taliban "enough." ... so we quit the war which turned out to be a surrender. This same mindset is emerging with reference to Gaza.
We didn’t ’quit the war’, we had years earlier outsourced the effort to primarily Afghan proxies to do the dying while we provided air support.

right after the end of the war, Afghan general Sami Sadat confirmed 66,000 troops were killed during the 20 years of conflict,[12] while general Yasin Zia, former Chief of General Staff of Afghanistan and Acting Defence Minister, reported to The Washington Post that Afghan security forces counted 92,000 killed members since 2001, citing data he collected.[13] According to Zia, the last days of the war, from July 1 to August 15, were particularly deadly with 4,000 troops killed and 1,000 missing.
 
I am afraid you are putting spin on the situation, but as I said, it is way too early for either side to propose negotiation. Someone has to surrender or lose on the battlefield first. For Israel, any kind of pause is simply granting Hamas time to rebuild their Army ... They WILL return, even if it is a generation down the road.

Afghanistan is excellent example. Someone in this country thought we had beaten on the Taliban "enough." ... so we quit the war which turned out to be a surrender. This same mindset is emerging with reference to Gaza.
I’m not though. They felt there may have been 2 gunmen in the convoy. The thing is their procedures are not to attack humanitarian aid even if they’re close to enemy targets. The trucks were clearly marked. The IDF admitted that they fvcked up.

 
I’m not though. They felt there may have been 2 gunmen in the convoy. The thing is their procedures are not to attack humanitarian aid even if they’re close to enemy targets. The trucks were clearly marked. The IDF admitted that they fvcked up.

I know nothing about the specifics, but when I read that the vehicles were ‘clearly marked’ I wonder if they were looking at them with infrared which wouldn’t show you any vehicle markings, just how hot each part of the vehicle was.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Titus Andronicus
I’m not though. They felt there may have been 2 gunmen in the convoy. The thing is their procedures are not to attack humanitarian aid even if they’re close to enemy targets. The trucks were clearly marked. The IDF admitted that they fvcked up.

I guess the conclusion is that the aid workers would have been home safe if Hamas had not sent drug fueled rapists into Israel on Oct. 7th to rape, burn, and murder hundreds and hundreds of people.

War sucks. Hamas sucks even more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HIWILLE
His call for total destruction of Hamas is frankly the only reasonable course of action. Every other course of action is simply a ten or twenty year pause in the war effort.
With respect Titus, this is part of the argument that simply doesn't make sense to me.

1) I simply don't believe the total destruction of Hamas is an achievable goal via military-only means - first, because even if they succeed somehow in wiping out Hamas in Gaza, it strains credulity that Hamas put all their eggs in the Gaza basket. They're evil and despicable, not stupid - they'd have had at least part of their resources moved away from Gaza so they had something to rebuild from.
2) Assume for a moment Israel proves me wrong and DOES totally wipe out Hamas...their actions today and for the last 6 months in particular are simply creating the groundwork for something else to take its place; and we also know Iran in particular will be perfectly happy to provide any such group clandestine support.
3) related to #1 - I do not believe any long-term peace there is possible without international support; and by repeatedly striking at targets such as this aid convoy, making it really impossible to for international aid to get in otherwise. It's stupid, and defies all logic; but somehow Hamas has become the plucky underdog in this conflict. (don't for an instant think I'm siding with Hamas here). But ultimately, for a long-term peace effort to be possible, multiple things imo have to happen; none of which will be quick or easy.

An alternative to Hamas in Gaza has to be found and supported, so that Hamas' support falls away. Israel needs to likewise recognize the hardline approach pushed by Bibi and the Israeli right-wingers is creating as many problems as its solving. Israel needs to wage a diplomatic war to swing support to its side instead of Hamas. Iran has to be convinced to drop its support of anti-Israel groups.
 
I guess the conclusion is that the aid workers would have been home safe if Hamas had not sent drug fueled rapists into Israel on Oct. 7th to rape, burn, and murder hundreds and hundreds of people.

War sucks. Hamas sucks even more.
These people worked with the idf to be safe. You’re being stupid.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: HIWILLE
By Jennifer Rubin
Columnist|
April 4, 2024 at 8:05 a.m. EDT





Israel’s strikes killing seven World Central Kitchen personnel, who were working for José Andrés’s nonprofit to feed the hungry in Gaza, were, by Israel’s account, a mistake. Saying that, however, does not absolve the country of responsibility for the latest tragedy in a war that has killed nearly 200 aid workers. Plainly, Israel has failed to construct or observe adequate rules of deconfliction to protect humanitarian aid workers.


Sign up for the Prompt 2024 newsletter for opinions on the biggest questions in politics

Moreover, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s statement that, in essence, mistakes happen in war is utterly insufficient — and revealing of his utter tone-deafness. Innocents do get killed — which is precisely why you want to avoid wars, carve out safe passage for innocents including humanitarian relief workers and make every effort to bring conflicts to a negotiated end.
“Several humanitarian groups said Tuesday that they would suspend their operations in Gaza after seven World Central Kitchen workers were killed in an Israeli strike, threatening already precarious deliveries to the aid-starved enclave,” The Post reported. “The strike sent shock waves through the international aid community. WCK and at least two other groups said they would pause their operations in Gaza.”



Israel has vowed to abide by the laws of war, but that requires its military action not “cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.” When massive civilian casualties including aid workers continue, there is reason to question compliance with international law.


A war launched for self-defense can lose legitimacy if the means of fighting violate international norms. Andrés’s plea for Israel to “stop restricting humanitarian aid, stop killing civilians and aid workers, and stop using food as a weapon” will resonate with many Americans. Accordingly, Israel cannot continue to fight for diminishing returns if it is not willing or able to protect innocents.
Israel seems to be wearing out the patience of even the Biden administration, arguably the most pro-Zionist in history. (Matters have gotten so bad that, before the latest strike, even Netanyahu’s BFF, former president Donald Trump, was telling Israel to wrap up the war.) The Times of Israel quotes an anonymous U.S. official furious that adequate measures to coordinate with aid workers are “only being put in place now.” Indeed, even in Israel there is recognition that not enough has been done. An Israeli official told the Times of Israel, “Soldiers are operating under immense pressure in very difficult conditions in which Hamas embeds itself within the civilian population, but the rules of engagement are designed to help deal with such conditions, and they’re too often being ignored.”



White House spokesman John Kirby was remarkably blunt. “We were outraged to learn of an IDF strike that killed a number of civilian humanitarian workers yesterday from the World Central Kitchen, which has been relentlessly working to get food to those who are hungry in Gaza,” he said on Tuesday. Expressing “hope” that the investigation’s results would be made public, Kirby declared, “This incident is emblematic of the larger problem and evidence of why distribution of aid in Gaza has been so challenging. But beyond the strike, what is clear is that the IDF must do much more to improve deconfliction processes so that civilians and humanitarian aid workers are protected.”
Later in the day, President Biden issued his own blistering statement, emphasizing that “this is not a stand-alone incident.” In some of his harshest language yet, he declared, “Israel has not done enough to protect aid workers trying to deliver desperately needed help to civilians. Incidents like yesterday’s simply should not happen.” He reminded Israel, “The United States has repeatedly urged Israel to deconflict their military operations against Hamas with humanitarian operations, in order to avoid civilian casualties.” Promising to do all the United States can to deliver aid to Gaza, Biden stressed: “I will continue to press Israel to do more to facilitate that aid. And we are pushing hard for an immediate cease-fire as part of a hostage deal.” Rarely have we seen Biden criticize Israel in such emotional terms.
Protests in Israel against the government had already grown in size and intensity before international fury erupted over the strikes. Demonstrations have expanded from weekly Saturday night vigils to support the hostages to days-long demonstrations challenging Netanyahu’s leadership of the war and hold on power. Tens of thousands of Israelis have taken to the streets on four consecutive nights to demand Netanyahu step down immediately. Tuesday night, some demonstrators who began at the Knesset moved to near Netanyahu’s home, where they clashed with police.



The combination of domestic and international pressure, not to mention scorching criticism from hostage families and even the Israel Defense Forces, has not yet forced Netanyahu from power. However, in a dramatic move, opposition war cabinet member Benny Gantz called for elections in September. That might accelerate pressure on Netanyahu to depart. (Netanyahu’s statements concerning the necessity of a Rafah operation — with no concrete plans provided to the United States on its execution, according to the administration — increasingly sound like a political strategy to raise the Biden administration’s ire, force Netanyahu’s right-wing partners to circle the wagons and extend the war indefinitely.)
In any event, the pressure from within Israel and the international community certainly has intensified on the besieged, overwhelmingly unpopular prime minister, who is also on trial on corruption charges. The vise must get tighter and opposition more dramatic — for instance, a national strike, a major IDF resignation, a threat to cut off U.S. military aid — if Netanyahu is to depart sooner rather than later. Put differently, only when consensus builds that he represents an existential threat to Israel will there be enough pressure to force him out during wartime.
When Netanyahu finally does depart, Israel will be left more isolated, unstable and bereft of goodwill than at any point in its history. It might take decades to recover from Netanyahu’s legacy.
The narrative has definitely changed for sure. I noticed today on the Sunday shows that there was never a counterpoint allowed as there has been. It was all offense against Israel and asking for accountability.
 
The truth of the matter is if Israel really was targeting civilians, there would be much more than 30,000 dead (which you’re going off of a figure Hamas gave you).
I don't think they're targeting civilians - I think they don't care if civilians get killed when they go after a target.
 
No, it was intentional at the time and that was the fvck up
Are you saying that the IDF knew before they attacked it that the trucks were the World Kitchen trucks, and attacked anyhow? (Maybe I missed this).
 
Anyone who doesn’t understand that they clearly mark aid vehicles and Israel intentionally struck them is stupid
 
Are you saying that the IDF knew before they attacked it that the trucks were the World Kitchen trucks, and attacked anyhow? (Maybe I missed this).
Yes they were marked so that anyone could tell they were aid trucks
 
Key excerpt from IDF statement: "Those who approved the strike were convinced that they were targeting armed Hamas operatives and not WCK employees. The strike on the aid vehicles is a grave mistake stemming from a serious failure due to a mistaken identification, errors in decision-making, and an attack contrary to the Standard Operating Procedures."

I believe Israel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HIWILLE
Key excerpt from IDF statement: "Those who approved the strike were convinced that they were targeting armed Hamas operatives and not WCK employees. The strike on the aid vehicles is a grave mistake stemming from a serious failure due to a mistaken identification, errors in decision-making, and an attack contrary to the Standard Operating Procedures."

I believe Israel.
Well good for you. They’re trying to strong arm aid workers and killed a fvcking American doing work to help people in need. Go fvck yourself.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: HIWILLE
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT