Pre-season results and the case for Kris Murray to start getting star player minutes

[jonesy5960]

The real games begin this week and the Hawks have rolled so far against completely overmatched competition. Sixth in offensive efficiency, the Hawks are the highest scoring team in the country with the largest margin of victory. The Hawks are 5th in FT percentage, 17th in FG percentage, and 3rd in turnover margin. The defense isn't posting the same gaudy numbers but they are a slight improvement over last year. Defensive efficiency currently ranks at 65th which is better than all of last year. Field goal defense is ranked 94th (39.9%) but that's comparable to top 50 teams sporting a % of 38%. Iowa is 50th in blocks at almost 5 per game and 53rd in steals.

A lot of players are contributing to the success so far with Keegan obviously at the top as the leading scorer in the country. There is only one player on the team however besides Keegan that ranks near the top statistically in most of the per 40 metrics so far this year. Kris has been nothing short of spectacular so far:

PPG - 2nd (Keegan 1st)
EFG% - 1st (69.5%)
3 pt% - 1st (64%)
Rebounds - 2nd (Rebraca 1st)
Blocks - 2nd (Keegan 1st)
Turnovers - 3rd (Jbo 1st)
Steals - 7th (JT 1st)
Assists - 8th (JT 1st)

IMO Kris is the 2nd most valuable player on this team right now and it's not even close. I hope he gets the minutes he and the team need and deserve to reach their maximum potential. Fran knows what he has. I think he will.

 

[LuteHawk]

After 6 games into our schedule against cupcake teams
here are the Hawkeye top scorers:

Keegan Murray.......25.6 points per game
Kris Murray..............13.6 points per game

Pat McCaffery........12.5 points per game
Sanfort....................10.5 points per game
Bohannon...............10.0 points per game

The biggest questions for Coach Fran: How will we cope
against better competition? Is Bohannon ready to bust
out of a shooting slump? Can the Murray Brothers in the
starting five make us a stronger team?

 

[perryhawk]

I think we are very fortunate to have all of these guys......and we haven't been in practice or around the team in the off season. When we have seen Patrick play at full health he has been very impressive....so, I don't think there's a reason to make a case for Kris to be a starter. He is doing extremely well in the role he plays right now. Having a guy like that come off of the bench is a great benefit for the Hawks.

Next year (if Keegan goes-big if at this point) then Kris may very well be in the starting line up. In the limited time that we have seen this team play this year, and the fact that Patrick has missed due to injury, I think its to soon to make this call.

 

[Hawkeye Marching Band]

I think we are very fortunate to have all of these guys......and we haven't been in practice or around the team in the off season. When we have seen Patrick play at full health he has been very impressive....so, I don't think there's a reason to make a case for Kris to be a starter. He is doing extremely well in the role he plays right now. Having a guy like that come off of the bench is a great benefit for the Hawks.

Next year (if Keegan goes-big if at this point) then Kris may very well be in the starting line up. In the limited time that we have seen this team play this year, and the fact that Patrick has missed due to injury, I think its to soon to make this call.

I agree with you regarding Kris's role, but the OP didn't claim he should be starting. A team's sixth man often plays "star minutes," and in some cases more total minutes than 1-2 members of the starting unit.

 

[jonesy5960]

After 6 games into our schedule against cupcake teams
here are the Hawkeye top scorers:

Keegan Murray.......25.6 points per game
Kris Murray..............13.6 points per game

Pat McCaffery........12.5 points per game
Sanfort....................10.5 points per game
Bohannon...............10.0 points per game

The biggest questions for Coach Fran: How will we cope
against better competition? Is Bohannon ready to bust
out of a shooting slump? Can the Murray Brothers in the
starting five make us a stronger team?

Yeah. If we are talking about scoring, I don't really like using PPG as it doesn't consider available minutes. When points are normalized by converting to a per 40 metric the top 8 scorers are:

Keegan Murray - 42
Kris Murray - 28.4
Payton Sandfort - 24.7
Pmac - 22.7
Tony Perkins - 21.8
Jbo - 18.2
JoeT - 12.5
Rebraca - 12.1

Even more important is how efficient the top scorers are. The effective field goal percentages for the top 8 are:

Kris Murray - .695
Keegan Murray - .672
Rebraca - .614
JBo - .567
JoeT - .554
Tony Perkins - .543
Payton Sandfort - .543
Pmac - .486

 

[jonesy5960]

I think we are very fortunate to have all of these guys......and we haven't been in practice or around the team in the off season. When we have seen Patrick play at full health he has been very impressive....so, I don't think there's a reason to make a case for Kris to be a starter. He is doing extremely well in the role he plays right now. Having a guy like that come off of the bench is a great benefit for the Hawks.

Next year (if Keegan goes-big if at this point) then Kris may very well be in the starting line up. In the limited time that we have seen this team play this year, and the fact that Patrick has missed due to injury, I think its to soon to make this call.

Relax Margaret. Kris was the subject of this post. No one brought up Patrick except for you.

 

[jonesy5960]

I agree with you regarding Kris's role, but the OP didn't claim he should be starting. A team's sixth man often plays "star minutes," and in some cases more total minutes than 1-2 members of the starting unit.

I think there is a recognition here that reserves, at least in Fran's system historically don't average close to 25 minutes per game which is where I think Kris should be at a minimum. Even Keagan last year only averaged 18 per game and he started a bunch of games with CJ and CMac out with injuries. Fran's typical substitution patterns tend to cap reserve minutes between 16-20.

 

[Hawkstrat]

"Relax Margaret. Kris was the subject of this post. No one brought up Patrick except for you."




What a stupid response.

 

[BBHawk]

Love both the Murray kids, PMac, and the team as a whole, but the stats do not take into account when a player is scoring or against which part of an opponent's roster they played the majority of their minutes.
Keegan and most of the starters gave played the best 5 of each opponent's rosters. The people coming off the bench see a lot more time after the Iowa starters have built a lead. I think we'll see more of what each player can offer starting Monday. It'll take a few weeks to see if any new cream rises to the top, but I think we'll have a much better idea of how this season might go after that.

 

[jonesy5960]

"Relax Margaret. Kris was the subject of this post. No one brought up Patrick except for you."




What a stupid response.

I agree.

 

[icwesthawk]

Relax Margaret is gold Jerry, gold

 

[Hawksfor3]

Having a guy like that come off of the bench is a great benefit for the Hawks.

Totally agree. We need a player like Kris on the 2nd unit right now. Great length defensively and his shot is looking good as well. He's rebounding well.

 

[Buffalo43]

Relax Margaret is gold Jerry, gold

Right there with "Ovaltine should called Roundtine"

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Can the Murray Brothers in the
starting five make us a stronger team?

Yes.

 

[mazda1]

Kris, Keegan, and Filip are the best rebounders and that may ultimately determine who plays in certain situations. A concern is fouls per 30 minutes from them.

Amazingly Fran probably has chosen right unit , despite his months working with them and seeing every practice.

We are weak on the defensive glass, but there is no magic pink pill on the horizon to cure it.

 

[HawkLogic]

Pmac rebounding so far is not very good (2.3 pg vs 6.8 for Kris) and his man defense isn't very good vs quicker "3"s. Almost every team we play the opposing "3" is going to be quicker than 6'9 PMAC. PMAC at "3" is fine in zone but not so great in man defense, and either way he needs to improve his rebounding....and his 3pt shooting the jury is out.

Who plays should be based overall offense/defensive merit. Kris so far looks like the 2nd best player on the team. Unless Kris lays a turd vs Virginia and falls back, His minutes should go up and they woud have to come out of Rebacca/Pmac minutes, unless Fran thinks Kris can play some "2." Fran has some obvious bias in whom he plays and tends to not pay much attention to defense unlike the elite coaches in B1G like Painter, Izzo, and in past Bo Ryan. Even an offensive coach like Belein became a believer in defense before he left B1G.

 

[jonesy5960]

Totally agree. We need a player like Kris on the 2nd unit right now.
defensively and his shot is looking good as well. He's rebounding well.

This isn't hockey. There doesn't need to be a "2nd unit" line change mentality here.

 

[BBHawk]

There are ALWAYS a group of posters calling for one player to sit and a different player play more/start. Not necessarily an informed opinion, but it's their opinion, nonetheless.

 

[IllQChawk]

Using these explicit statistics, why don't some of you write to the NCAA and try to have the rules changed to allow as many as 10 players from the same team on the court at the same time. That way Fran can satisfy all you nut cases to have your way.
Iowa hired a coach to run the program and that's what he doing. Let him coach and stop whining about whom should play and whom should not. Fran sees these kids everyday and no I don't always agree, but he's the coach. Enjoy the season and stop this effing stupidity.
Yes, Iowa is going to lose some games this year, that's a given no matter whom plays the majority of the 200 minutes allotted in a game and I understand when things fall apart during the season, wanting change from a fan base in natural.
Iowa on the other hand, is 6 and 0 and has been winning be an average of 30 points a game! Geez people get grip. Go ballistic and fight for change after things go south not before the apocopes....

 

[SI_NYC]

I think we are very fortunate to have all of these guys......and we haven't been in practice or around the team in the off season. When we have seen Patrick play at full health he has been very impressive....so, I don't think there's a reason to make a case for Kris to be a starter. He is doing extremely well in the role he plays right now. Having a guy like that come off of the bench is a great benefit for the Hawks.

Next year (if Keegan goes-big if at this point) then Kris may very well be in the starting line up. In the limited time that we have seen this team play this year, and the fact that Patrick has missed due to injury, I think its to soon to make this call.

Now that you have brought up Patrick, I would say at this point in the season, Kris is outplaying PMac on both ends of the floor. Do you disagree?

 

[jonesy5960]

Pmac rebounding so far is not very good (2.3 pg vs 6.8 for Kris) and his man defense isn't very good vs quicker "3"s. Almost every team we play the opposing "3" is going to be quicker than 6'9 PMAC. PMAC at "3" is fine in zone but not so great in man defense, and either way he needs to improve his rebounding....and his 3pt shooting the jury is out.

Who plays should be based overall offense/defensive merit. Kris so far looks like the 2nd best player on the team. Unless Kris lays a turd vs Virginia and falls back, His minutes should go up and they woud have to come out of Rebacca/Pmac minutes, unless Fran thinks Kris can play some "2." Fran has some obvious bias in whom he plays and tends to not pay much attention to defense unlike the elite coaches in B1G like Painter, Izzo, and in past Bo Ryan. Even an offensive coach like Belein became a believer in defense before he left B1G.

I totally agree but here's the deal. I didn't want this discussion to turn into a Kris vs PMac one because too many folks on here get emotional, like it's their kid playing or something. It has nothing to do with Pmac who is a fine player in his own right. He could end up being better than all of the rest some day.

Right now Kris is the second best player on the team. Any objective evaluation based on every available metric of Kris' game vs anyone else supports that opinion. He's been doing it every game so far. He's the only player not named Keegan who has shown so far that he can score, defend and rebound at a consistently high level. He should get the minutes. Don't care who they come from.

 

[Bearhawk0505]

I agree OP. However, last year we had to watch Cmac play over the by far most talented 4 man on our roster(Keegan). This year we get to watch Pmac and Cmac play over the most talented 3(Kris) on our roster.

 

[jonesy5960]

There are ALWAYS a group of posters calling for one player to sit and a different player play more/start. Not necessarily an informed opinion, but it's their opinion, nonetheless.

Who called for a player to sit?

 

[BBHawk]

Now that you have brought up Patrick, I would say at this point in the season, Kris is outplaying PMac on both ends of the floor. Do you disagree?

No. PMac has been injured but he has been pretty good when he's in. Both are very good players and should form a great trio at forward splitting the 80 minutes. Plenty of minutes to go around.

 

[BBHawk]

Who called for a player to sit?

Read the posts and you will see.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Using these explicit statistics, why don't some of you write to the NCAA and try to have the rules changed to allow as many as 10 players from the same team on the court at the same time. That way Fran can satisfy all you nut cases to have your way.
Iowa hired a coach to run the program and that's what he doing. Let him coach and stop whining about whom should play and whom should not. Fran sees these kids everyday and no I don't always agree, but he's the coach. Enjoy the season and stop this effing stupidity.
Yes, Iowa is going to lose some games this year, that's a given no matter whom plays the majority of the 200 minutes allotted in a game and I understand when things fall apart during the season, wanting change from a fan base in natural.
Iowa on the other hand, is 6 and 0 and has been winning be an average of 30 points a game! Geez people get grip. Go ballistic and fight for change after things go south not before the apocopes....

The OP made a very articulate case and did not throw Fran or any players under the bus. Last I checked, this is a message board about Iowa basketball, so not sure why you are getting triggered.

Now back to my response. I agree with the OP that Kris is the 2nd most talented player on the team and in my opinion, it's not close. This is not a dig at PMac, but Kris is a better driver, finisher, shot-blocker, rebounder, and defender than Patrick IMO. I would like to see both on the floor with Keegan and Sandfort + Ulis or Joe T. I think this lineup is Iowa's best offensive and possibly defensive lineup. Iowa doesn't have Garza to offset cold shooting from 3, so they need multiple guys capable of creating shots for themselves and others off the bounce. We saw the other night that guys not named Keegan shot 3-21 in the first half, so Fran needs to solution for Jbo having off games and Connor having zero offense.

 

[jonesy5960]

Read the posts and you will see.

Nobody called for Pmac to sit. Nobody mentioned Pmac at all until the weird Pmac cabal decided to step in and defend him against a non-existent attack.

 

[jonesy5960]

The OP made a very articulate case and did not throw Fran or any players under the bus. Last I checked, this is a message board about Iowa basketball, so not sure why you are getting triggered.

Now back to my response. I agree with the OP that Kris is the 2nd most talented player on the team and in my opinion, it's not close. This is not a dig at PMac, but Kris is a better driver, finisher, shot-blocker, rebounder, and defender than Patrick IMO. I would like to see both on the floor with Keegan and Sandfort + Ulis or Joe T. I think this lineup is Iowa's best offensive and possibly defensive lineup. Iowa doesn't have Garza to offset cold shooting from 3, so they need multiple guys capable of creating shots for themselves and others off the bounce. We saw the other night that guys not named Keegan shot 3-21 in the first half, so Fran needs to solution for Jbo having off games and Connor having zero offense.

There is some weird phenomenon going on here with a group of posters who feel that every suggestion of a player not name McCaffery getting more playing time is treated as an attack on the McCaffery family. Not one time was Pmac mentioned in my post and the first response was by one of the cabal defending PMac's playing time and suggesting that Kris should wait until Keegan retires to get more minutes. It's insane.

 

[BBHawk]

The OP made a very articulate case and did not throw Fran or any players under the bus. Last I checked, this is a message board about Iowa basketball, so not sure why you are getting triggered.

Now back to my response. I agree with the OP that Kris is the 2nd most talented player on the team and in my opinion, it's not close. This is not a dig at PMac, but Kris is a better driver, finisher, shot-blocker, rebounder, and defender than Patrick IMO. I would like to see both on the floor with Keegan and Sandfort + Ulis or Joe T. I think this lineup is Iowa's best offensive and possibly defensive lineup. Iowa doesn't have Garza to offset cold shooting from 3, so they need multiple guys capable of creating shots for themselves and others off the bounce. We saw the other night that guys not named Keegan shot 3-21 in the first half, so Fran needs to solution for Jbo having off games and Connor having zero offense.

It really hard to tell who the second best player on the team is at this point. Kris has looked pretty damn good in some games but not so good in others. Same with PMac, Toussaint, JoBo and Perkins. The nice thing is that currently they are available to play and add their special talents at any time. I say go with the hot hands each game, regardless of who starts.

 

[jonesy5960]

Read the posts and you will see.

I don't see it.

 

[BBHawk]

Nobody called for Pmac to sit. Nobody mentioned Pmac at all until the weird Pmac cabal decided to step in and defend him against a non-existent attack.

Don't be obtuse. Posters have said Iowa should start Kris over PMac. See this thread: Who should start for Iowa?
In fact you said so in it:

fun poll

personally, i would like to start with:
Joe
JBo
6'9" Kris
6'9" Keegan
6'9" Filip

My choice as well.

 

[BBHawk]

I don't see it.

Look up.
😉

 

[perryhawk]

Now that you have brought up Patrick, I would say at this point in the season, Kris is outplaying PMac on both ends of the floor. Do you disagree?

Kris may have produced better results in the games we’ve seen so far. That said, we can’t account for what the coaches have seen in Practices when Pmac has been healthy.

So, I will make this point. If I were putting the most productive 5 on the floor to start a game, I would put Kris in to replace Rebraca at this point. But then you don’t have much spark off the bench.

I hope that Kris and Patrick both develop to become the best players they are capable of becoming….it would help this team immensely.

 

[SI_NYC]

No. PMac has been injured but he has been pretty good when he's in. Both are very good players and should form a great trio at forward splitting the 80 minutes. Plenty of minutes to go around.

I haven't seen Patrick playing as well to date as Kris has, whether injured or not. Through six games, Kris has looked better to me on both sides of the floor, especially defensively. I don't mean it to be a knock on Patrick though. Kris has just looked really good. Fran will figure out who should get the most minutes for the team to be successful. I'm of the opinion right now that Kris gives the team a better chance to succeed but really Iowa needs both to have outstanding years. I wish them both great years.

 

[jonesy5960]

Don't be obtuse. Posters have said Iowa should start Kris over PMac. See this thread: Who should start for Iowa?
In fact you said so in it:

OK. I thought you meant within this thread. That thread you're referencing was a poll on who people think should start. It had lots of comments on various starting lineups. Some included PMac and some didn't. Some included JBo and others didnt. I'm not sure why people like you and Perry get so defensive when someone suggests that another player is playing at a level that warrants more minutes. It's not always a binary discussion where wanting a player to get more minutes reflects a negative impression of Pmac or Cmac. It's a relative discussion and not a personal attack. Saying Kris needs to get more minutes is not saying Pmac sucks or even that those minutes all come from him or CMac for that matter. I want PMac to succeed more than anyone. He's gone through hell and high water to get where he is. Nobody deserves success more than he does and everyone should be rooting for him. With that said, the best players should get as many minutes as they can get. I'm sure that as a fan you can't have a problem with that can you?

 

[perryhawk]

OK. I thought you meant within this thread. That thread you're referencing was a poll on who people think should start. It had lots of comments on various starting lineups. Some included PMac and some didn't. Some included JBo and others didnt. I'm not sure why people like you and Perry get so defensive when someone suggests that another player is playing at a level that warrants more minutes. It's not always a binary discussion where wanting a player to get more minutes reflects a negative impression of Pmac or Cmac. It's a relative discussion and not a personal attack. Saying Kris needs to get more minutes is not saying Pmac sucks or even that those minutes all come from him or CMac for that matter. I want PMac to succeed more than anyone. He's gone through hell and high water to get where he is. Nobody deserves success more than he does and everyone should be rooting for him. With that said, the best players should get as many minutes as they can get. I'm sure that as a fan you can't have a problem with that can you?

You reply to my post by calling me Margret…and then say I’m being defensive. I didn’t think my original post was offensive but if you find it to be, my apologies.

I hope Kris succeeds in the best way possible…I know that Fran has said Kris basically needs to have his confidence built up to reach his potential. I think Fran is the perfect coach to accomplish that and appears to be well on his way to getting it done.

 

[jonesy5960]

You reply to my post by calling me Margret…and then say I’m being defensive. I didn’t think my original post was offensive but if you find it to be, my apologies.

I hope Kris succeeds in the best way possible…I know that Fran has said Kris basically needs to have his confidence built up to reach his potential. I think Fran is the perfect coach to accomplish that and appears to be well on his way to getting it done.

I didn't find it offensive as much as curious. You comment on a post that was all about Kris and his abilities and deserving of minutes by defending Pmac's play and starting role. I understand that it's natural to assume that given Kris' skillset he's a natural 3 and would compete with Pmac for playing time but the fact that defending him was your first inclination seems odd to me. Kris can play 2-4. It's almost a visceral response from you and BBHAWK whenever this discussion of playing time arises to jump to the defense of a McCaffery even when it's not warranted. Kind of like an overly protective mother would respond in defense of her child 😉.

 

[perryhawk]

I didn't find it offensive as much as curious. You comment on a post that was all about Kris and his abilities and deserving of minutes by defending Pmac's play and starting role. I understand that it's natural to assume that given Kris' skillet he's a natural 3 and would compete with Pmac for playing time but the fact that defending him was your first inclination seems odd to me. Kris can play 2-4. It's almost a visceral response from you and BBHAWK whenever this discussion of playing time arises to jump to the defense of a McCaffery even when it's not warranted. Kind of like an overly protective mother would respond in defense of her child 😉.

I did respond based on the fact that I believe they primarily play the same position…you were correct in that reasoning.

 

[BBHawk]

OK. I thought you meant within this thread. That thread you're referencing was a poll on who people think should start. It had lots of comments on various starting lineups. Some included PMac and some didn't. Some included JBo and others didnt. I'm not sure why people like you and Perry get so defensive when someone suggests that another player is playing at a level that warrants more minutes. It's not always a binary discussion where wanting a player to get more minutes reflects a negative impression of Pmac or Cmac. It's a relative discussion and not a personal attack. Saying Kris needs to get more minutes is not saying Pmac sucks or even that those minutes all come from him or CMac for that matter. I want PMac to succeed more than anyone. He's gone through hell and high water to get where he is. Nobody deserves success more than he does and everyone should be rooting for him. With that said, the best players should get as many minutes as they can get. I'm sure that as a fan you can't have a problem with that can you?

Yes, just as I'm sure you can also see that fans don't always agree on who the best 5 players are much less which 5 form the best team on the floor. I'll leave that to the coaches who see them every day in practice.
As I said, there are plenty of minutes to go around. Also, we'll see what happens when the rubber meets the road in these next 5 games.

 

[RocknRollface]

This isn't hockey. There doesn't need to be a "2nd unit" line change mentality here.

Exactly