While I agree that the everybody hates Iowa thing gets a little old, I'd have to think he'd get a little more love if he had signed with Florida. Doesn't matter though.
PSA: Andrew Fleming in Nat'l Tournament April 2-4
- Thread starter StormHawk42
- Start date
I don't follow recruiting close enough to get into ranking but unless Reeves has shown alot more on the AAU circuit I have know idea how he is so high. He is a very good athlete with little basketball skill or feel at this point. If Josh Ogelsby can be a 4 star, Fleming has got to be close.
Rankings tend to weigh a higher ceiling more than great basketball IQ and feel for the game. The great thing is Fleming is a role player anyway and he is very good at what he does from what I have seen. A player like Reeves has a greater "potential" to be a star but could also be a bust. Fleming IMO will fill that JO role at the very least and probably will be much better. Fleming has already accepted a role is high school so it should be an easy transition.
FYI...(link)
...Video of yesterday's game is available on the ESPN video streaming site for those without ESPNU. I assume that video of today's game will also be streamed tonight.
ESPN video feed
...Video of yesterday's game is available on the ESPN video streaming site for those without ESPNU. I assume that video of today's game will also be streamed tonight.
ESPN video feed
Re: FYI...(link)
These games are tough to watch. They're little more than organized pickup games. There are generally more technical fouls assessed than set plays run successfully.
These games are tough to watch. They're little more than organized pickup games. There are generally more technical fouls assessed than set plays run successfully.
Bad first look by Flemming. Missed a couple of shots, looked slow on D, and made a TO or two. Hopefully he gets another look in the second half. Bacon takes more bad shots than I imagined from what this board tells me. The anouncer says "he doesn't force any bad shots" as he chucks up a contested NBA three followed by another. Pretty rough to watch.
Really impressed by both centers in the game.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Really impressed by both centers in the game.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Fleming has been in the whole 4th quarter and didn't touch the ball until there was 4 minutes left in the quarter.
This game today was a good example of what I was thinking about rankings when I attempted to open up a discussion earlier.
There are players that excel in a loose, unstructured game. Street ball. Recently some posters have been talking about the Big Twelve as having quite a few street ball teams. You wonder why they win early? They've less to learn.
There are players that are more suited to running an offense, playing team ball.
I don't see how Fleming survives on Oak Hill when everyone around him is on page one and he's on page two.
If one reads enough about high school and college basketball, you'll find coaches, media people, saying that the amount of games being playing such as AAU ball is all well and good, but no one is working on fundamentals, or offenses, defenses. It's all basic and all run and gun. And even playing WITH other guys is disappearing art.
It looks to me like the only thing with less authority than a pro basketball coach is a prep school or AAU coach. Can you imagine the blowout Dwayne Bacon would have if anyone discussed maybe less drives against two or three guys with him!?!
There is no doubt that schools like Bishop Hill, Oak Hill, Mole Hill, The Hills Have Eyes, Over the Hill and Orange Academy (Which I like to call Chuck E. Cheese Prep because for a few $$$ you can rent out one of their gyms for a party! Look it up, I'm not kidding!) Where was I? Oh yeah, these prep schools certainly have talent and I don't dream they'd take a school like Iowa City West to anything but the woodshed. But in the end?
Imagine the PTL on steroids. The only real problem I have is I'm trying to get a handle on Andrew Fleming and he barely touches the ball when he is IN the game. And he's prone to playing like his teammates, a bad habit which I presume Coach McCaffery will cure very quickly.
Anyway, about the rankings. I just don't see how in a game like this or AAU games how anyone can get more than a GRASP of anything but athletic ability. Again, it's like the PTL on steroids.
I think being at Oak Hill is akin to training for a martial arts match by getting in Hong Kong street fights. It's brutally primitive and beautifully athletic. For Andrew Fleming it has had to feel a little like a ballet dancer in a mosh pit. I think it will have done him some good. I think he will enjoy that it is over with and Iowa plays basketball.
There are players that excel in a loose, unstructured game. Street ball. Recently some posters have been talking about the Big Twelve as having quite a few street ball teams. You wonder why they win early? They've less to learn.
There are players that are more suited to running an offense, playing team ball.
I don't see how Fleming survives on Oak Hill when everyone around him is on page one and he's on page two.
If one reads enough about high school and college basketball, you'll find coaches, media people, saying that the amount of games being playing such as AAU ball is all well and good, but no one is working on fundamentals, or offenses, defenses. It's all basic and all run and gun. And even playing WITH other guys is disappearing art.
It looks to me like the only thing with less authority than a pro basketball coach is a prep school or AAU coach. Can you imagine the blowout Dwayne Bacon would have if anyone discussed maybe less drives against two or three guys with him!?!
There is no doubt that schools like Bishop Hill, Oak Hill, Mole Hill, The Hills Have Eyes, Over the Hill and Orange Academy (Which I like to call Chuck E. Cheese Prep because for a few $$$ you can rent out one of their gyms for a party! Look it up, I'm not kidding!) Where was I? Oh yeah, these prep schools certainly have talent and I don't dream they'd take a school like Iowa City West to anything but the woodshed. But in the end?
Imagine the PTL on steroids. The only real problem I have is I'm trying to get a handle on Andrew Fleming and he barely touches the ball when he is IN the game. And he's prone to playing like his teammates, a bad habit which I presume Coach McCaffery will cure very quickly.
Anyway, about the rankings. I just don't see how in a game like this or AAU games how anyone can get more than a GRASP of anything but athletic ability. Again, it's like the PTL on steroids.
I think being at Oak Hill is akin to training for a martial arts match by getting in Hong Kong street fights. It's brutally primitive and beautifully athletic. For Andrew Fleming it has had to feel a little like a ballet dancer in a mosh pit. I think it will have done him some good. I think he will enjoy that it is over with and Iowa plays basketball.
I was disappointed in Andrew's defensive play as he wasn't able to stay in front of any of the guys he was guarding. I hope this was just the nature of these types of games.
I stated upthread that IMHO Oak Hill will be a good experience for Fleming. He is getting extended exposure to a (mostly) high level of competition. He could have stayed home and won a 4th straight state basketball championship and added another Mr. Basketball award but would he be challenged to the same degree? In my opinion, the answer is no. Besides the competition, he is advancing his skills just by practicing against a team full of D1 athletes.
Bottom line, Fleming is completing the normal adjustment athletes go through from high school to college now - a year early. Fans are familiar with the "freshman mistake", a term which is used to describe reckless decision making or a foolish turnover made by 1st year college players. You won't hear that term used very often for Fleming next year.
Bottom line, Fleming is completing the normal adjustment athletes go through from high school to college now - a year early. Fans are familiar with the "freshman mistake", a term which is used to describe reckless decision making or a foolish turnover made by 1st year college players. You won't hear that term used very often for Fleming next year.
Defense is his most glaring weakness. Not so much his intensity because he is willing, more so his inability to stay in front of quicker opponents. He will need to play smarter and work hard on conditioning once he gets to Iowa. He is a fairly good defensive rebounder.
He reminds me of Deshaun Thomas of Ohio State. Lasted three years in college, scored nearly 20 ppg as a junior, but had to have the ball in his hands our he'd pout.
Now he's carving out a pro career in Barcelona.
He was a five star ranked #22. Bacon? A five star ranked #23. Both from Rivals.
Defense is almost always the last thing for high schoolers to be good at and work at. AAU, summer leagues etc. don't help either. We all know Jok could shoot but he was poor on defense. Fran will work with Fleming and his defense will come along. It looks worse than it could be if nobody plays defense, in college its a team game for the most part not street ball.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Yep bacon would pout big time and there was a couple times he acted like he was gonna go at the ref when he thought he got fouled and there wasn't a call. Florida state can have him.
#1 Oak Hill vs #6 Huntington Prep
FIRST HALF
Fleming entered the game with 1:55 to go in the 1st qtr after Bacon picked up his 2nd foul
at the 1 minute mark, Oak Hill with an out of bounds play under their basket, AF took the ball out and had a nice lob pass to the Oak Hill big for an easy 2
with 17 secs to go in the 1st qtr, AF sprinted down the court to get in the passing lane to prevent a pass to the HP big (would have been an easy 2)
at 6:55 mark 2nd qtr, he got a pass under the bucket and tried to put it up, it got blocked out of bounds
at 6:43 mark, he had an open 3 look from the right side and missed
a 6:10 mark had a pass blocked/ intercepted for a turnover
at 6:02 mark, after the guard he was guarding drove around him for an attempted lay up, AF left the game and never returned
Oak Hill led just 26-24 at the half; Duane Bacon had just 5 pts (his season ave is 24.4 ppg); Fleming played just 4 of the 16 available minutes; he was 0-2 from the field and a turnover
SECOND HALF
Fleming entered with 52 seconds left in the 3rd qtr
At the end of the 3rd qtr, Oak Hill led just 45-42 (Bacon, a FL State commit, with 13; Giddens, an Ohio St recruit, with 8; Reaves, a Penn State commit, with 6)
at 4:16 mark, AF had his jumper blocked
at 2:53 mark of the game with Oak Hill up 54-49, AF left the game for good
Oak Hill wins 61-51
Bacon 7-18 FGs, 17 pts
Fleming played just 10 minutes, 0-3 from the field, 0 points, 1 turnover
#1 Oak Hill is now 47-0 and will play #2 Montverde (a FL team; Ben Simmons plays for them; he is the #1 ranked player in the country) for the championship Saturday at 11 am CST; TV: ESPN; where: Madison Square Garden
FIRST HALF
Fleming entered the game with 1:55 to go in the 1st qtr after Bacon picked up his 2nd foul
at the 1 minute mark, Oak Hill with an out of bounds play under their basket, AF took the ball out and had a nice lob pass to the Oak Hill big for an easy 2
with 17 secs to go in the 1st qtr, AF sprinted down the court to get in the passing lane to prevent a pass to the HP big (would have been an easy 2)
at 6:55 mark 2nd qtr, he got a pass under the bucket and tried to put it up, it got blocked out of bounds
at 6:43 mark, he had an open 3 look from the right side and missed
a 6:10 mark had a pass blocked/ intercepted for a turnover
at 6:02 mark, after the guard he was guarding drove around him for an attempted lay up, AF left the game and never returned
Oak Hill led just 26-24 at the half; Duane Bacon had just 5 pts (his season ave is 24.4 ppg); Fleming played just 4 of the 16 available minutes; he was 0-2 from the field and a turnover
SECOND HALF
Fleming entered with 52 seconds left in the 3rd qtr
At the end of the 3rd qtr, Oak Hill led just 45-42 (Bacon, a FL State commit, with 13; Giddens, an Ohio St recruit, with 8; Reaves, a Penn State commit, with 6)
at 4:16 mark, AF had his jumper blocked
at 2:53 mark of the game with Oak Hill up 54-49, AF left the game for good
Oak Hill wins 61-51
Bacon 7-18 FGs, 17 pts
Fleming played just 10 minutes, 0-3 from the field, 0 points, 1 turnover
#1 Oak Hill is now 47-0 and will play #2 Montverde (a FL team; Ben Simmons plays for them; he is the #1 ranked player in the country) for the championship Saturday at 11 am CST; TV: ESPN; where: Madison Square Garden
So, you meant he'll play the role of a player who's too slow, lacks athleticism, plays weak D, and can't hit his shots (and lacks confidence in his shots). Good, I was concerned we didn't have anyone who could take over Josh's role.
JO didn't play his role very well, we can all agree on that. He just needed to space the floor, shoot with confidence when the offense gets him open shots, play unselfishly and find open teammates.Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:
So, you meant he'll play the role of a player who's too slow, lacks athleticism, plays weak D, and can't hit his shots (and lacks confidence in his shots). Good, I was concerned we didn't have anyone who could take over Josh's role.
It's very hard to have 5 ball dominant players on the court at the same time and still have good team chemistry. If people are just realistic with what Fleming is going to be asked to do at Iowa, I think he could be great but I don't ever see him being someone that creates off the dribble or that the offense runs through.
If Iowa had 4 Andrew Fleming type players coming in I would be concerned, but they have guys with different skill sets that will fill their roles. Moss,Williams,Wagner and even Hutton have shown they all have some ability off the dribble at their position. Fleming fills that spot up shooter role along with Elingson.
This post was edited on 4/4 8:44 AM by buttermypancakes
Originally posted by buttermypancakes:
JO didn't play his role very well, we can all agree on that. He just needed to space the floor, shoot with confidence when the offense gets him open shots, play unselfishly and find open teammates.Originally posted by PhantomFlyer:
So, you meant he'll play the role of a player who's too slow, lacks athleticism, plays weak D, and can't hit his shots (and lacks confidence in his shots). Good, I was concerned we didn't have anyone who could take over Josh's role.
It's very hard to have 5 ball dominant players on the court at the same time and still have good team chemistry. If people are just realistic with what Fleming is going to be asked to do at Iowa, I think he could be great but I don't ever see him being someone that creates off the dribble or that the offense runs through. If Iowa had 4 Andrew Fleming type players coming in I would be concerned, but they have guys with different skill sets that will fill their roles. Moss,Williams,Wagner and even Hutton have shown they all have some ability off the dribble at their position. Fleming fills that spot up shooter role along with Elingson.
This post was edited on 4/4 8:44 AM by buttermypancakes
I'm very curious to see what kind of player Fleming is when placed on a team that values ball movement and motion to create open shots. He needs to be on a team like that.
Again, I believe there is a reason that seventeen college coaches offered Fleming a scholarship. And I'll add that Oak Hill's coach, Kevin Smith, who has been seeking out players to transfer to his program for 30 years, saw something in Andrew Fleming that was worth an offer.
And IF Coach Smith made a mistake? It is kind of odd that Fleming is the first guy in off the bench and for a big part of the season replaced Josh Reaves in the starting lineup.
Fleming's success hangs on one thing. His three point shooting percentage. He reminds me of Josh Oglesby AND Bobby Hanson. How's that for a range of possible results?
Last thing, as to his quicks and his defense. Hansen wasn't a burner either but he gutted out some amazing defense. Magic Johnson hated being defended by him. (Pros. Jazz vs Lakers in the playoffs. Hansen got a chip on his shoulder about "King Magic" as he called him never being called for a foul or traveling. That series Bobby gave Magic fits. It was beautiful.)
Anyone watching the final on espn right now? Fleming just nailed a 3 from the wing. Not sure about his defense yet because he just got into the game.
Seems like Fleming's quickness will determine his ceiling. That might also be why he isn't as highly ranked as a recruit. Depending on match ups and which other players are on the floor, Fleming probably has the size and strength to play the 2 or 3, but that could also be true for a couple of the incoming recruits and Jok. Oak Hill's style makes it hard to evaluate court awareness and ability to play within a team offense/defense. I think Fleming has more athleticism and playmaking ability than Josh, but whether he can be a more consistent shooter is hard to say. If Andrew can be another Bobbie Hansen, which also might be a good comparison because of his size and ball handling, that would be great.
I have no idea how Bacon is a 5 star player. He really isn't that good. He's got good athleticism but I don't see much of anything else.
Montverde up 3 with just under 6 minutes to play.
Thus far, Fleming with only FTs to his name in the 2nd half (at least since I've been watching). Does a nice job of drawing fouls. I doubt Fleming will get a look from three unless one of his teammates is forced to pass it to him. Oak Hill goes a bit too fast on offense and most of the time looks to dribble drive and force a shot up (usually with one or no passes into the possession.....)
3 charges called against Oak Hill within a minute and a half. That's efficiency, right there.
Thus far, Fleming with only FTs to his name in the 2nd half (at least since I've been watching). Does a nice job of drawing fouls. I doubt Fleming will get a look from three unless one of his teammates is forced to pass it to him. Oak Hill goes a bit too fast on offense and most of the time looks to dribble drive and force a shot up (usually with one or no passes into the possession.....)
3 charges called against Oak Hill within a minute and a half. That's efficiency, right there.
Bacon is shooting Oak Hill out of the game. I'd be pissed if I was his teammate. He's 4-18 from the field and continues to jack up stupid shots. His career fg % has got to be under 40%.
Gotta love these announcers basically perpetuating hype moreso than speaking about substance. But I guess it's only high school basketball, and these kids are "the future"........
Maybe it's time for a 3, Oak Hill...
Maybe it's time for a 3, Oak Hill...
So much for wondering if Fleming was in the doghouse. Played a ton of minutes in the second half. I missed the first or so minute of it...did Reaves start and do something dumb, or was he pretty much benched?
The ONE time I figured what's the point of getting back to the game as Fleming won't get in right away.
The ONE time I figured what's the point of getting back to the game as Fleming won't get in right away.
I think I hate watching this game more than an NBA all-star game.
Great talent, but what a joke-comments made by Kobe and several others stating that AAU and these high school "academies" are ruining the true game of basketball is 100% spot on.
Great talent, but what a joke-comments made by Kobe and several others stating that AAU and these high school "academies" are ruining the true game of basketball is 100% spot on.
