...for anyone that remembers. I wasn't old enough to understand. What happened with Payne that he seemingly regressed (or did he?) from his freshmen year?
Question about Michael Payne
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This is just my opinion, but Payne was slight of build and the Big Ten was entering an era when hard bodied players (what I call thugs) we're becoming prevalent.
Payne and Stokes were post players without real outside games. Stokes' left-handed jump hook was the greatest single weapon I've seen in college BB. So, Payne became a complimentary and defensive player.
By comparison, yes.
6'11, 195 compared to 6'10", 220. And as to Payne having a not so good career, he was good enough to be drafted 57th in the NBA. Stokes was drafted 33rd.
And yeah, I looked it up. My memory isn't THAT good. I've always thought they kind of missed the best years they could have had, their junior and senior years. Raveling showed up and game coaching, imo, went downhill.
Payne's scoring average decreased every year he was at Iowa (so did Kevin Boyle's). He started out his career at center and was able to score because he was so much quicker than the other centers in the Big 10. Stokes began to emerge at the end of their freshmen year. Stokes was a pure center, so the only way to play both at once was to slide Payne over to forward. He was still good, but was no longer quicker than everyone guarding him.
Stokes and Payne were examples of inflated height listings. If I remember correctly, Stokes' pro day height measurement was 6'7 & 1/2". That's why he didn't really stick in the NBA.: his talents were those of a center in a tweener forward's body.
I don't recall that but I suppose. I think maybe when one is drafted 33 there's a chance you're playing on Teflon.
I also think I got a clue to the problem when I listened to him give a radio interview years ago. Right about the time Davis was the new coach. The question was, Greg had played for both Olson and Raveling and was there much difference. He was very nice about how he put it, but Olson worked players asses off, and Raveling was a lot more fun and he liked Raveling's way better.
Tell you what. Street and Smith's had TWO Preseason All Americans from Iowa the year Raveling showed up. That's how good Payne and Stoke had been as sophomores. As I recall that was a ten guy team! You gotta remember we also had a guy nearly lost to obscurity by the name of Brad Lohaus had he not redshirted a year under Raveling, who never knew what to do with him. Dr. Tom rescued Brad clear into the NBA.
And Craig Anderson was, as hard as he tried, a fake/real I don't care about the height, 6'7" slow footed tweener center getting his butt kicked every night trying to play wing forward! Again, that was Raveling's first year and all that but I'll never understand the lineups, nor stalling when we were behind at Indiana, nor bringing Johnny Fort in when we were down by eight with under four to go like...SURPRISE!!!... I mean, what the heck was that? The Hail Mary of basketball schemes? (I don't really remember how far behind we were or what the tie was on the clock but it was freagin, with that team, if he's THAT good play him at the wing spot you Moron!!!)
I don't doubt the height thing but it is 1) Barefoot or shoes. 2) So common as to believe everybody is 2 inches shorter than listed. I won't say it wasn't a reason. Well, yeah, with all respect...that wasn't the ONLY reason.
That's why when we see McCaffery doing a red faced Irish jig in front of his players, like he did almost violently with Marble...it really is for their own good.
it wasnt as much as Payne regressing it was Stokes improving (on offense).
Payne did not regress defensively. This is a classic (which we all do) look at the box score...while Stokes was getting the scoring highlights...Payne was doing the other things to make a true twin tower.
The way I remember it, both Stokes and Payne were skilled players. Stokes had an aggressive mental make up and Michael Payne's was more passive. Pure and simple that was the difference. They both were very good players but Payne didn't have an aggressive nature.
Great rebounder, defender and passer. Missed more shots inside 3 feet than anyone i can remember
maybe on offense..as fans we have a tendency to see offense & disregard defense. Payne was not passive on defense. I can recall Lute not being as happy with Stokes effort on the defensive end. I'm sure some of it was a form of motivation & 'Stoker' got better which put him on those All-B1G 1st & 2nd Teams.
Payne was 2nd Team All-B1G as a freshman because of his defense. Stokes was a sub and his back up as a freshman.
I would think had the Big Ten had an all-defensive team back then - Payne would have made a few of them.
Iowa benefited greatly from Raveling's recruiting after he left, but he screwed the pooch with the team that Lute left behind. Iowa was ranked in the top 10 preseason in George's first year, but didn't come close to finishing .500 in conference. Great recruiter, but lousy game and development coach.
Payne was player of the year in Illinois and Stokes in Ohio coming out of HS, so expectations were through the roof. Had Lute stayed, I am sure there would have been MUCH more success. They also had Lohaus on the team their sr year, but couldn't figure out how to use them. Payne and Stokes were both more like 6'9", but Payne had a very long neck, so his body was more like a 6'7" player. Fort's failure as a top PG also contributed to the lack of production. Another disappointment from Lute's departure...
Payne was player of the year in Illinois and Stokes in Ohio coming out of HS, so expectations were through the roof. Had Lute stayed, I am sure there would have been MUCH more success. They also had Lohaus on the team their sr year, but couldn't figure out how to use them. Payne and Stokes were both more like 6'9", but Payne had a very long neck, so his body was more like a 6'7" player. Fort's failure as a top PG also contributed to the lack of production. Another disappointment from Lute's departure...
I stood next to Payne at CH arena about seven years ago. That man is huge . No 195 pounder now. I think he had personal issues during his time at Iowa that distracted him. This included the loss of his father.
I just remember Payne missing more bunnies than anyone in an Iowa uniform.
Payne was silky smooth for a big, but before the time when big guys would regulary play outside. I heard there was some attempt to try and control the coach prior to the change. Raveling was a great recruiter, but not a steller coach IMO.
I remember the MSU game in East Lansing in the final seconds when George had Stokes and Payne bring the ball up against the press with the game on the line. It didn't turn out well. It soured me on George forever.
Michigan was next and at the motel bar in Ann Arbor Z said the two of them weren't fond of Lute and that played a role in his leaving. We were a few pops into the night following a tough loss, so who knows.
I remember the MSU game in East Lansing in the final seconds when George had Stokes and Payne bring the ball up against the press with the game on the line. It didn't turn out well. It soured me on George forever.
Michigan was next and at the motel bar in Ann Arbor Z said the two of them weren't fond of Lute and that played a role in his leaving. We were a few pops into the night following a tough loss, so who knows.
Great discussion! We may be getting older but dang we remember our Hawkeyes! On complaint I had about Raveling was his love affair with Knight. When asked why he was stalling while we were losing against Indiana he said something like he'd rather be down a couple baskets at the end than have it be worse. (Insert time to take a happy pill...still get ticked at that mentality.)
Also recall the PanAm games when knight coached ad George was his assistant...Payne and Stokes played on that team. I believe the U.S. won and George was all up Bobby Knight's trousers after that as well.
Also recall the PanAm games when knight coached ad George was his assistant...Payne and Stokes played on that team. I believe the U.S. won and George was all up Bobby Knight's trousers after that as well.
Im too young, and was just learning the game, under George. I dont remember a single season under Lute. George's 2nd season (Gerry Wright's first) was the first season where I remember specific games and plays. I "remember" Steve Carfino but cant recall his play at all. I appreciate all the responses.
I don't recall Iowa stalling against Indiana. Bob Knight did it to George, and only George, in both games. I believe the shot clock came into play 1 or 2 years later
Wasn't one of those a game where IU held it for most of the last 8 minutes or so? I seem to remember one like that.
You know, I think that IS the way it happened. And Raveling refused to come out of the zone.
DanL53, great Johnny Fort (from Gary, IN) reference!! Hadn't heard his name in years. And don't forget his big brother, Jeff, founder of the El Rukns.
The game IU held the ball late vs Iowa was in '84. Some familiar names, Steve Alford, Marty Simmons, Dan Dakich handled the ball a lot down the stretch.
The game IU held the ball late vs Iowa was in '84. Some familiar names, Steve Alford, Marty Simmons, Dan Dakich handled the ball a lot down the stretch.
For the kids out there, here's the old box scores from the newspaper in 1984. First one is game in Bloomington, second one is in Iowa City.
No Dakich game one...and freakin Uve Blab. Thanks for posting!For the kids out there, here's the old box scores from the newspaper in 1984. First one is game in Bloomington, second one is in Iowa City.
Mike Payne had great low post skills in guard's body. He was very skinny and weak for inside play but too slow for outside and didn't have a reliable outside shot. Mike did regress. The Big Ten was starting its descent into thuggery and dishonest officiating that allowed the thuggery.
Stokes was a much better low post player and big enough to play center in college. Whoever said he was a too small tweener for the NBA was spot but he had a very good career in Europe. Great college player, great Hawk.
George is a wonderful man but wasn't a great coach. Not very creative and not particularly good at skill instruction.
Johnny Fort was the dumbest basketball player in Iowa history. Pretty sure he couldn't read or write beyond a grade school level. Don't know how they got him eligible.
Stokes was a much better low post player and big enough to play center in college. Whoever said he was a too small tweener for the NBA was spot but he had a very good career in Europe. Great college player, great Hawk.
George is a wonderful man but wasn't a great coach. Not very creative and not particularly good at skill instruction.
Johnny Fort was the dumbest basketball player in Iowa history. Pretty sure he couldn't read or write beyond a grade school level. Don't know how they got him eligible.
I remember the year after Magic left MSU, the first half was something like 8-6 Iowa at the Fieldhouse. MSU held the ball darn near the entire half.
Heathcoat did the right thing though, game wound up going to OT. Something like 44-39 Iowa. Kept a drastically undermanned MSU in the game.
Heathcoat did the right thing though, game wound up going to OT. Something like 44-39 Iowa. Kept a drastically undermanned MSU in the game.
Yep, Lute refused to come out and guard, and Jud knew he didn't have the horses to compete 40 minutes. Pretty exciting stuff
The Hawks were great Lester's last two years, if they had the lead with less than 10 min to go. You couldn't take it away from Ronnie, and he and the other guards made FTs in the clutch. That is a big reason why Iowa shared the B1G title Ronnie's junior year, but I am glad the shot clock was implemented.
In the 70's I always listened to Jim Zabel's sportsline show when Lute Olsen was the guest. Lute made the comment that Payne used to outplay Stokes in practice but that completely turned around when they reached their sophmore year. Stokes did make big strides his soph year but leveled off his remaining two years. Still, the "twin towers" enjoyed great notoriety during their time at Iowa.
Yep, Lute refused to come out and guard, and Jud knew he didn't have the horses to compete 40 minutes. Pretty exciting stuff
The Hawks were great Lester's last two years, if they had the lead with less than 10 min to go. You couldn't take it away from Ronnie, and he and the other guards made FTs in the clutch. That is a big reason why Iowa shared the B1G title Ronnie's junior year, but I am glad the shot clock was implemented.
I for one had a great time at that game. I sat close enough to the floor that I could have hit Heathcote with popcorn while he was being interviewed before the game. He gave no indication of his plans. Plans made because he had one guy who was talented and foul prone...had a brother that played for Michigan State later on, but I can't recall the name.
I'll never forget the screams and anger from the crowd. Yet at the same time, it became fun yelling at Jud.
I don't like the shot clock and miss that basketball didn't have to be played the same way all the time.
Payne himself said Stokes was the better player. But Payne was awesome as a freshman. I recall Iowa on a 3 on 2 fast break, Hansen on the left lobbed to Payne on the right, who slammed it home one-handed.
Jay Vincent
Payne was first in RPG and second in PPG (led them in PPG going into that NCAA Tournament) for a team that finished in a three-way tie for 2nd in the Big Ten, so that also helped with his 2nd Team selection: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/iowa/1982.html
(P.S. I didn't realize that Bobby Hansen was cloned that season)
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All you need to do is look at the shooting percentages above for our guards on this team and realize why we struggled. Wasn't that also one of the first years of the 3 point shot? (I think 82-83 was the first in the Big 10?) Todd Berkenpas never really became the sharp shooter he was projected to be coming out as Iowa's first Mr Basketball. IIRC, Carfino put up a fair amount of 3's, but I'm guessing as a whole we were abysmal.For the kids out there, here's the old box scores from the newspaper in 1984. First one is game in Bloomington, second one is in Iowa City.
The 3 pointer was still conference specific until the NCAA adopted it in ~ 86-87 (?) and it wasn't even kept as a separate stat line until then.
I remember hearing Raveling (at an event in Ottumwa) before his first season say that he thought we should win not only a Big 10 title but contend for an NCAA title. I also heard that Stokes was not a fan of Lute.
Funny, I thought I heard a quote from Raveling that Iowa was greatly undermanned compared to the other contenders in the Big Ten. Something like, Iowa was going to war with pistols against teams that had automatic weapons. I am sure that Iowa was ranked in the top 10 nationally, maybe even top 5, entering Raveling's first year, but they finished 6-12 in conference. I don't remember any serious injuries, just remarkable underachievement.
I believe Payne's high school teammate was Illinois player of the year, Wasn't He? Bruce Douglas was his name I think.
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