Saudi Arabia: 'We've seen the pain' and we don't care

[The Tradition]

Saudi Arabia's mission to blow everyone out of the oil market isn't over yet.

The country's policy of pumping so much oil that prices stay too low for competitors to make a profit has led to losses at big oil companies, suppressed inflation globally, and even seen Saudi Arabia's own sovereign debt downgraded.

And the country has no plans to stop.

The chairman of Saudi Aramco, the state's oil company, told the Financial Times: "There have been no conversations here that say we should cut production now that we've seen the pain.

"The only thing to do now is to let the market do its job," the Saudi Aramco chairman, Khalid al-Falih, said.

The OPEC oil-producing cartel, of which Saudi Arabia is a key member, decided against cutting production targets last year, letting the price fall from around $100 to less than $50.

http://www.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-has-no-plans-to-cut-oil-production-2015-11

 

[naturalmwa]

I thought this was going to be about the Syrian refugees. I imagine you could give that story this headline.

This sounds good, what am I missing?

 

[The Tradition]

I thought this was going to be about the Syrian refugees. I imagine you could give that story this headline.

This sounds good, what am I missing?

OPEC (led by the Saudis) is keeping oil prices down to drive western competitors out of business. Isn't that special?

 

[naturalmwa]

OPEC (led by the Saudis) is keeping oil prices down to drive western competitors out of business. Isn't that special?

Sounds good to me.

 

[The Tradition]

Sounds good to me.

Well, if you're serious, then you're an idiot, and that's the nicest way I can put that.

 

[naturalmwa]

Well, if you're serious, then you're an idiot, and that's the nicest way I can put that.

You don't like low oil prices? Now you sound like the EPA.

 

[The Tradition]

You don't like low oil prices? Now you sound like the EPA.

Not artificially low. The Saudis can afford to take a bath longer than the western oil producers can. This is a game of chicken that has the potential to blow up in everyone's face.

 

[naturalmwa]

Not artificially low. The Saudis can afford to take a bath longer than the western oil producers can. This is a game of chicken that has the potential to blow up in everyone's face.

How? That oil isn't going anywhere. We should empty Saudi Arabia before we use our own supply. That's awesome they want to sell to us at a discount. You're not thinking very logically today.

 

[dbq hawk 32]

How? That oil isn't going anywhere. We should empty Saudi Arabia before we use our own supply. That's awesome they want to sell to us at a discount. You're not thinking very logically today.

I think the part you are missing is the one where US oil companies go bankrupt and lay off tens of thousands of workers, and then aren't there to pick of the pieces 5 years down the line.

 

[naturalmwa]

I think the part you are missing is the one where US oil companies go bankrupt and lay off tens of thousands of workers, and then aren't there to pick of the pieces 5 years down the line.

I'm not missing that point. I'm waiting for Tradition to make this point.

 

[dbq hawk 32]

I'm not missing that point. I'm waiting for Tradition to make this point.

Now I feel used

 

[The Tradition]

I'm not missing that point. I'm waiting for Tradition to make this point.

Why do you need ME to make that point if you know it?

 

[naturalmwa]

Why do you need ME to make that point if you know it?

Because I wanted to point out how you too value protectionist collectivism over market capitalism in this case. I think you just may be a stealth Union recruiter.

 

[The Tradition]

Because I wanted to point out how you too value protectionist collectivism over market capitalism in this case.

Huh? OPEC is the one doing the collectivism, here.

 

[naturalmwa]

Huh? OPEC is the one doing the collectivism, here.

Nope, they are just competing in the free market and you don't like that. You sound like a man searching for a fair market. We can help.

 

[dbq hawk 32]

Because I wanted to point out how you too value protectionist collectivism over market capitalism in this case. I think you just may be a stealth Union recruiter.

I don't know if the literal textbook example of a cartel engaging in practices to limit competition is the example you want. Especially when those cartel members are state-owned. I say this as a union member.

 

[naturalmwa]

I don't know if the literal textbook example of a cartel engaging in practices to limit competition is the example you want. Especially when those cartel members are state-owned. I say this as a union member.

Why? Because we all agree this should be regulated? That works for me too.

 

[dbq hawk 32]

Why? Because we all agree this should be regulated? That works for me too.

They couldn't run constant deficits if they operated in the free market. They can only do so because they are state-owned and part of a cartel.

 

[naturalmwa]

They couldn't run constant deficits if they operated in the free market. They can only do so because they are state-owned and part of a cartel.

I'm not sure that's right or what is happening. Look at Amazon.

The point is Tradition has been arguing in multiple threads that he thinks the market should be the only thing that determines price. Here however he has a different impulse. I'd like to identify and recognize that impulse.

 

[The Tradition]

I'm not sure that's right or what is happening. Look at Amazon.

The point is Tradition has been arguing in multiple threads that he thinks the market should be the only thing that determines price. Here however he has a different impulse. I'd like to identify and recognize that impulse.

It's not a "free market" if the government(s) are manipulating it. Good grief, get a clue!

 

[naturalmwa]

It's not a "free market" if the government(s) are manipulating it. Good grief, get a clue!

So pray tell what response would you want to SA? And why should consumers care about anything but paying the lowest price for their oil? Good grief, stop hiding and lay out your value positions.

 

[The Tradition]

So pray tell what response would you want to SA? And why should consumers care about anything but paying the lowest price for their oil? Good grief, stop hiding and lay out your value positions.

Well, we sort of shoot ourselves in the foot by killing our ability to respond in kind (cough keystone cough XL cough).

 

[moral_victory]

Well, we sort of shoot ourselves in the foot by killing our ability to respond in kind (cough keystone cough XL cough).

 

[naturalmwa]

Well, we sort of shoot ourselves in the foot by killing our ability to respond in kind (cough keystone cough XL cough).

So you want to nationalize the oil industry? Tell me more.

 

[The Tradition]

So you want to nationalize the oil industry? Tell me more.

OPEC vs. the West! Unleash the market and we can annihilate the bastards!

 

[naturalmwa]

OPEC vs. the West! Unleash the market and we can annihilate the bastards!

You just told us the west couldn't compete. You're not making a consistent, coherent argument. Why should we even care where we get our oil if we are getting it cheap? Isn't the market working if it is delivering the goods we want at the best possible price? It sound to me like you want to interfere with the market. Now you just need to admit that to yourself and begin your journey towards the light.

 

[The Tradition]

You just told us the west couldn't compete. You're not making a consistent, coherent argument. Why should we even care where we get our oil if we are getting it cheap? Isn't the market working if it is delivering the goods we want at the best possible price? It sound to me like you want to interfere with the market. Now you just need to admit that to yourself and begin your journey towards the light.

We don't have a free market either (cough Keystone XL cough). We can't fight the bastards with one hand tied behind our backs.

 

[naturalmwa]

We don't have a free market either (cough Keystone XL cough). We can't fight the bastards with one hand tied behind our backs.

So what would you want to do?

 

[artradley]

Huh? OPEC is the one doing the collectivism, here.

You're not getting it. Usually OPEC tries to inflate prices by artificially suppressing supply. That is not free market.

Saudi Arabia is now ignoring OPEC, selling all of their oil, and allowing the market price go to wherever it might go. That is free market.

You are arguing for SA to collude with OPEC in order to drive prices up. Apparently you favor high stock prices at the expense of causing "pain" to millions of consumers, and at the expense of free market capitalism.

 

[The Tradition]

You're not getting it. Usually OPEC tries to inflate prices by artificially suppressing supply. That is not free market.

Saudi Arabia is now ignoring OPEC, selling all of their oil, and allowing the market price go to wherever it might go. That is free market.

You are arguing for SA to collude with OPEC in order to drive prices up. Apparently you favor high stock prices at the expense of causing "pain" to millions of consumers, and at the expense of free market capitalism.

No, read the damn article. They're doing this to put western competitors out of business. "Taking a loss" to get your competitors out of business is not free market capitalism. Add to that they they're propping up OPEC members who are dependent upon oil revenues in the process.

 

[THE_DEVIL]

This thread has so much potential. i may have to keep bumping it.

 

[naturalmwa]

No, read the damn article. They're doing this to put western competitors out of business. "Taking a loss" to get your competitors out of business is not free market capitalism. Add to that they they're propping up OPEC members who are dependent upon oil revenues in the process.

How is that not free market capitalism? Big firms use this strategy all the time. But if you don't like it, what would you want to do about it? What is your preferred plan of action?

 

[The Tradition]

How is that not free market capitalism? Big firms use this strategy all the time. But if you don't like it, what would you want to do about it? What is your preferred plan of action?

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? UNLEASH CAPITALISM. Can you imagine the damage that could be caused to OPEC if our energy reserves weren't being ATTACKED by our own people? Can you imagine the hell our oil companies could unleash if they were unfettered by the Byzantine regulations under which they operate? OPEC countries SUPPORT their energy producers.... we routinely threaten to throw ours in jail.

And to be sure, Shell, Exxon, et. al. will all be fine. It's all the small time U.S. producers and employers that no one has ever heard of who will go belly up in this standoff.

 

[naturalmwa]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? UNLEASH CAPITALISM. Can you imagine the damage that could be caused to OPEC if our energy reserves weren't being ATTACKED by our own people? Can you imagine the hell our oil companies could unleash if they were unfettered by the Byzantine regulations under which they operate? OPEC countries SUPPORT their energy producers.... we routinely threaten to throw ours in jail.

And to be sure, Shell, Exxon, et. al. will all be fine. It's all the small time U.S. producers and employers that no one has ever heard of who will go belly up in this standoff.

What regulations would you want removed? What actions are we curtailing that you want to accept? And why should consumers in the U.S. Do this when SA is giving us discounted oil now? what is your end goal? Your position doesn't seem flushed out.

 

[KennyPowers_96]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? UNLEASH CAPITALISM. Can you imagine the damage that could be caused to OPEC if our energy reserves weren't being ATTACKED by our own people? Can you imagine the hell our oil companies could unleash if they were unfettered by the Byzantine regulations under which they operate? OPEC countries SUPPORT their energy producers.... we routinely threaten to throw ours in jail.

And to be sure, Shell, Exxon, et. al. will all be fine. It's all the small time U.S. producers and employers that no one has ever heard of who will go belly up in this standoff.

So should we care more about millions of fellow US citizens reaping the countless economic benefits of cheap oil...

or

small time US oil producers that nobody has heard of going belly up in a market in which they had yet to establish themselves?

You're saying B, right?

 

[artradley]

No, read the damn article. They're doing this to put western competitors out of business. "Taking a loss" to get your competitors out of business is not free market capitalism. Add to that they they're propping up OPEC members who are dependent upon oil revenues in the process.

That absolutely is capitalism. Immoral? Probably. Destructive? Sometimes. It's why government sometimes steps in with rules and regulations. But it is raw, unfettered, capitalism.

 

[joelbc1]

OPEC (led by the Saudis) is keeping oil prices down to drive western competitors out of business. Isn't that special?

It's "the market" you and yours pray for. Basic Econ 101 principles.

 

[nyc97]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? UNLEASH CAPITALISM. Can you imagine the damage that could be caused to OPEC if our energy reserves weren't being ATTACKED by our own people? Can you imagine the hell our oil companies could unleash if they were unfettered by the Byzantine regulations under which they operate? OPEC countries SUPPORT their energy producers.... we routinely threaten to throw ours in jail.

And to be sure, Shell, Exxon, et. al. will all be fine. It's all the small time U.S. producers and employers that no one has ever heard of who will go belly up in this standoff.

Cost of extraction for North American oil is 2-5x higher than SA and most other Mid East countries, so I'm not really sure how much hell we'd be unleashing. We would probably have a shit ton of polluted ground water though.

It's also not so much that OPEC supports their oil countries, most of them are state owned, so you can't really separate the countries and the companies.

 

[reotto]

It's "the market" you and yours pray for. Basic Econ 101 principles.

BS and u are an effing idiot for stating such.

Iowa Econ alum

 

[Joes Place]

We don't have a free market either (cough Keystone XL cough). We can't fight the bastards with one hand tied behind our backs.

TransCanada tried to delay the pipeline, because the tar sands oil is NOT economical at <$70 or more a barrel. Pray tell, how would that oil have ANY impact on world oil prices right now????