Seeding 184

[LaxHawk174]

I wasn't aware that the manner in which you lost was that important, whether you lose by dec or by fall. I thought it was simply a matter of wins/losses. In which case I certainly agree with Dons scenario. If falls, and bonus point victories are weighted more heavily than you very well could be correct MSU. Any confirmation on this?

 

[MSU158]

Lax,

It is simply common sense. The coaches look at the results and rank each weight according to the results. Would you value a 1 point loss the same as a Fall? Of course not. It is the same in every sport. How often do you see a team in football ranked above the team that beat them 45-0, even if they have 1 less loss?

Admittedly, Gravina really mucks this weight up, but as a coach(and mind you I have an Iowa bias, albeit not nearly as strong as many here) I wouldn't be able to put Brooks ahead of Dudley after watching what happened when they wrestled......................

 

[McCulloughd]

Don,

You may be the best fan at convincing himself I have ever seen! For the record, I would love to see Brooks get the highest seed possible. Still, you are continuing to find a way to ignore Brooks' very UGLY loss while giving MAXIMUM value to the VERY CLOSE losses for Dudley.

I hope you are right!

I think your just finding a way to continue arguing. I always thought that getting beat was getting beat regardless. You've convinced me msu158 to "Ignore your posts".

 

[MSU158]

McCullough,

If you want to ignore me because I think a Fall holds more value than a 1 point loss, feel free. We definitely have a different mindset that would likely lead us to see most things differently.

 

[LaxHawk174]

Lax,

It is simply common sense. The coaches look at the results and rank each weight according to the results. Would you value a 1 point loss the same as a Fall? Of course not. It is the same in every sport. How often do you see a team in football ranked above the team that beat them 45-0, even if they have 1 less loss?

Admittedly, Gravina really mucks this weight up, but as a coach(and mind you I have an Iowa bias, albeit not nearly as strong as many here) I wouldn't be able to put Brooks ahead of Dudley after watching what happened when they wrestled......................

I would agree with that except for the fact that in wrestling, a fall is not always indicative of dominance, as we all know. I can see it if it was a mdec or a tech fall, but all wrestling fans know that anybody can pin anybody. I think the 45-0 football would be a more accurate comparison if compared to a TF or Mdec. But I guess i'm just talking semantics.

 

[KUIU]

Lax,

It is simply common sense. The coaches look at the results and rank each weight according to the results. Would you value a 1 point loss the same as a Fall? Of course not. It is the same in every sport. How often do you see a team in football ranked above the team that beat them 45-0, even if they have 1 less loss?

Admittedly, Gravina really mucks this weight up, but as a coach(and mind you I have an Iowa bias, albeit not nearly as strong as many here) I wouldn't be able to put Brooks ahead of Dudley after watching what happened when they wrestled......................[/QUOTE

I might buy it if the match was really an ass kicking. Dudley locked up a cradle in a 0-0 match and pinned Brooks. I doubt the same thing happens again. Brooks has handled everyone else he has wrestled in the Big10.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Don,

You may be the best fan at convincing himself I have ever seen! For the record, I would love to see Brooks get the highest seed possible. Still, you are continuing to find a way to ignore Brooks' very UGLY loss while giving MAXIMUM value to the VERY CLOSE losses for Dudley.

I hope you are right!

While you are ignoring the actual seeding criteria.

 

[MSU158]

Don,

I am? You have a quote from one of the coaches STATING word for word that head to head results matter THE MOST!

Again, I want you to be right. I would happily take Brooks getting the 2 seed. I simply think, and in my experience it usually holds true, that a very lopsided loss takes precedence. I hope I am wrong!

 

[LutherAce]

Coaches are only going to receive the records of the wrestlers at the weight. They don't get to argue who should be seeded where until after the coach's votes and pre-seeds are released...then you get to argue your point. As Don pointed out, the coach's would receive this:

1) Abounader 9-0
2) Brooks B 8-1
3) Gravina C 7-1
4) McC D 5-1
5) Dudley 7-2

and they would submit their seeding (for everyone to see) and it would be tallied up and the seeds released. At that point, NEB coach might say, wait a minute, we beat Brooks, and then Carl says, sit down hucking fusker, you lost twice and don't get a say.

 

[LutherAce]

Don,

I am? You have a quote from one of the coaches STATING word for word that head to head results matter THE MOST!

Again, I want you to be right. I would happily take Brooks getting the 2 seed. I simply think, and in my experience it usually holds true, that a very lopsided loss takes precedence. I hope I am wrong!

So if Lynde pins AB this week, he should be in the top 5? i mean, he pinned the undefeated guy, so AB would have to be below Lynde...

 

[MSU158]

You are telling me they don't receive the match results? Let's say 7 guys are 7-1 and have all lost to someone that another guy hasn't lost to. How in the world would you preseed that? I guarantee they receive more than just records. They receive the results for each guy for every B1G dual they wrestled.

 

[Omahahawk86]

Coaches are only going to receive the records of the wrestlers at the weight. They don't get to argue who should be seeded where until after the coach's votes and pre-seeds are released...then you get to argue your point. As Don pointed out, the coach's would receive this:

1) Abounader 9-0
2) Brooks B 8-1
3) Gravina C 7-1
4) McC D 5-1
5) Dudley 7-2

and they would submit their seeding (for everyone to see) and it would be tallied up and the seeds released. At that point, NEB coach might say, wait a minute, we beat Brooks, and then Carl says, sit down hucking fusker, you lost twice and don't get a say.

I think you are right in this and that is what the seeds will be. That is great for Sammy also.

 

[MSU158]

Lynde would be 4-4. Obviously, common sense would step in here. But, one more loss in the case of Dudley(both by 1 point) should hold more sway than a win by pin?

 

[MSU158]

First off, all these coaches pretty much know what happened in Conference. They aren't going to do pre-seeds based on records SOLELY. Again, how would they pre-seed a weight if 6 guys were tied at say 6-2 and you didn't know who beat whom and by how much?

This isn't meant as an argument. I enjoy talking about this topic and appreciate all the feedback. I am simply giving my opinion on a situation without trying to include any Iowa bias. I want to continue to stress that I will gladly be wrong in this case, but have a hard time seeing Brooks ahead of Dudley after watching them wrestle.........................

 

[DonHawkeye]

You keep saying Dudley has a head to head win over Brooks. Good for him. To bad he has a head to head loss to both McC and Rutgers. The Brooks/Dudley head to head will not even come into play.

 

[DonHawkeye]

First off, all these coaches pretty much know what happened in Conference. They aren't going to do pre-seeds based on records SOLELY. Again, how would they pre-seed a weight if 6 guys were tied at say 6-2 and you didn't know who beat whom and by how much?

This isn't meant as an argument. I enjoy talking about this topic and appreciate all the feedback. I am simply giving my opinion on a situation without trying to include any Iowa bias. I want to continue to stress that I will gladly be wrong in this case, but have a hard time seeing Brooks ahead of Dudley after watching them wrestle.........................

Luckily for the coaches this weight shakes out pretty easily as is.
1 undeafeted gets 1st seed.
3 guys with 1 loss. 1 has a head to head in that group and one skipped a 1/3 of the duals.

 

[wasdt21]

I will bet $100 on brooks seed over Dudley at bigs to wrestling for life,i have never won a bet on here easy pickings

 

[MSU158]

wasdt21,

I will do that bet for the charity. Either way the charity wins.

 

[MSU158]

Here is a great example from just last year.
Steven Rodrigues was 6-3 in B1G duals. losses to Dziewa 3-2, Dardanes 9-4, Abidin 10-4
Dziewa was 5-3 in B1G duals. losses to Ashnault 3-1, Stieber 15-0 and Dardanes 7-3
Ashnault was 7-2 in B1G duals. losses to Rodrigues 2-0 and Abidin 5-2.

Rodrigues and Dziewa went 1-1 with one of the matches being at Midlands. Dziewa also lost to Ashnault and Stieber. Ashnault lost to Rodrigues and Abidin. Rodrigues also lost to Abidin and Dardanes.

Seedings between the 3 at 141 at B1G 2015: Rodrigues #4, Ashnault #5, Dziewa #6.

Basically put, record is NOT the only factor to decide seeding!

Edited to add: those were the pre-seeding slots as well.

 

[sloehawk]

Here is a great example from just last year.
Steven Rodrigues was 6-3 in B1G duals.
Dziewa was 5-3 in B1G duals.
Ashnault was 7-2 in B1G duals.

Rodrigues and Dziewa went 1-1 with one of the matches being at Midlands. Dziewa also lost to Ashnault and Stieber. Ashnault lost to Rodrigues and Abidin.

Seedings between the 3 at 141 at B1G 2015: Rodrigues #4, Ashnault #5, Dziewa #6.

Basically put, record is NOT the only factor to decide seeding!

Edited to add: those were the pre-seeding slots as well.

If you think you're going to come up with some blanket statement that applies to seeding, you're living in a dream world. There are a WIDE variety of factors, some may even be in writing, yet when the seeds come out and you compare it to what is written, your 1st, 2nd and 3rd thought is likely to be WTF?

So to summarize: You're all correct, until you aren't.

 

[LutherAce]

who did rodrigues lose to? and by how much? how bad did Ashnault lost to Rod and Abidin?

you're not comparing the same argument.

If Rodrigues pinned Ashnault, then you have a similar argument as someone with a worse record is seeded above someone that they beat...

 

[MSU158]

Luther,

My point is a guy with one more loss seeded above someone he beat head to head. Also, you would think that the Rodrigues regular decision win over Ashnault would only further my point as Dudley beat Brooks even more decisively.

I will edit and add the exact losses and scores above.

 

[wasdt21]

way to be standup msu, that carries weight to me.

 

[MSU158]

wasdt21,

Always fond of a good cause and it's a good way to place a bet over a heated topic. Seedings are always a touchy thing to bet, because as soon as you think you have it figured out, something drastically different happens. I wouldn't bet that much for profit, but for a good cause, absolutely!

Also, I have been donating considerably less the last 2 years to my Alma Mater so I have wrestling money left to give!

 

[LutherAce]

Luther,

My point is a guy with one more loss seeded above someone he beat head to head. Also, you would think that the Rodrigues regular decision win over Ashnault would only further my point as Dudley beat Brooks even more decisively.

I will edit and add the exact losses and scores above.

I agree that record is NOT the only factor...but if you look at the bracket and how it was seeded, I am sure Brands wasn't fighting tremendously hard to get Dziewa to a 4 or 5 and be on the same side as Steiber...

just saying...

 

[DonHawkeye]

Here is a great example from just last year.
Steven Rodrigues was 6-3 in B1G duals. losses to Dziewa 3-2, Dardanes 9-4, Abidin 10-4
Dziewa was 5-3 in B1G duals. losses to Ashnault 3-1, Stieber 15-0 and Dardanes 7-3
Ashnault was 7-2 in B1G duals. losses to Rodrigues 2-0 and Abidin 5-2.

Rodrigues and Dziewa went 1-1 with one of the matches being at Midlands. Dziewa also lost to Ashnault and Stieber. Ashnault lost to Rodrigues and Abidin. Rodrigues also lost to Abidin and Dardanes.

Seedings between the 3 at 141 at B1G 2015: Rodrigues #4, Ashnault #5, Dziewa #6.

Basically put, record is NOT the only factor to decide seeding!

Edited to add: those were the pre-seeding slots as well.

I think head to head come into play when guys are right next to each other. But I think Brooks is the best of the 3 - 1 loss guys and Dudley isn't going to leap over 2 guys he lost to.

If we are going off what coaches submit who knows what the hell they will justify. But my scenario makes the most sense with what the criteria they have given. Hell I don't care.

I hope he is 5th seed and Dudley is 4th and he has to beat Dudley, Ab and McC to win it. If he does that he probably gets a top 3 seed come NCAAs.

 

[Needanap]

I think head to head come into play when guys are right next to each other. But I think Brooks is the best of the 3 - 1 loss guys and Dudley isn't going to leap over 2 guys he lost to.

If we are going off what coaches submit who knows what the hell they will justify. But my scenario makes the most sense with what the criteria they have given. Hell I don't care.

I hope he is 5th seed and Dudley is 4th and he has to beat Dudley, Ab and McC to win it. If he does that he probably gets a top 3 seed come NCAAs.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how Snyder will be seeded at HWT? If Snyder, Coon and Stoll all remain unbeaten in conference where will they be seeded? How much will the lack of Snyder's matches impact him? How much will Stoll's (2) losses to the #1 and #5 ranked guys (Gwiz and Marsden and both out of conference) be counted against him? Should Coon be seeded # 1 because he is undefeated?

 

[07mantle]

McC lost to ill. He dodged Abounder. He had another bad out of conference loss. He does not deserve to be ahead of Brooks and probably not Dudley.

1) Ab
2) Brooks
3) Dudley
4) McC
5) Koepke
6) Courts

seriously Don Hawkey .... are u really a serious wrestling fan? I in no way want to come to your board and be labeled a 'flamer' ...but really ...he dodged Abounader? ...not even remotely close ...the comment about 'he was losing'.in the other match is lame ...doesn't Iowa pride themselves on winning the 3rd period? ...not sure where McCutcheon is in that top4 pecking order but all PSU fans are pretty comfortable where ever he lands ... but whoever he wrestles will get whatever they want and a bit more ...again do not intend to flame as I love this board more than any except PSU ..but this is a great board

 

[hawkeyecrazy]

I get that a pin MAY be given more weight , but it is not the end all be all over the body of work that is a season. It was stated that this is just "common sense".
So by that logic Gilman was pinned in last years NCAAs; does common sense dictate that we would rank his opponent over him or even consider him a favorite in their next match up?
It happens. Guys get caught. If David Taylor and Bubba Jenkins were to wrestle 10 times who would you seed higher knowing that one holds a pin over the other. I'll hang up and listen now
....just wanted to use a PSU reference for all of the fans that visit the board. Make them feel at home and all.

 

[Husker Hank]

So what Brooks has this going for him.
- Dudley has 2 B1G losses.
- McC has a loss and will not get as many wins as Gravina or Brooks
- He has a head to head win over Gravina

So could easily see it go
1) Ab
2) Brooks
3) Gravina
4) McC
5) Dudley

If you use B1G record combined with head to head this makes the most sense.

 

[Husker Hank]

So what Brooks has this going for him.
- Dudley has 2 B1G losses.
- McC has a loss and will not get as many wins as Gravina or Brooks
- He has a head to head win over Gravina

So could easily see it go
1) Ab
2) Brooks
3) Gravina
4) McC
5) Dudley

If you use B1G record combined with head to head this makes the most sense.

You aren't listening. The #1 criteria is head to head. You are putting Dudley below McC, and Gravina because of the #1 criteria, but forget about it when considering your boy.

 

[Husker Hank]

Lax,

It is simply common sense. The coaches look at the results and rank each weight according to the results. Would you value a 1 point loss the same as a Fall? Of course not. It is the same in every sport. How often do you see a team in football ranked above the team that beat them 45-0, even if they have 1 less loss?

Admittedly, Gravina really mucks this weight up, but as a coach(and mind you I have an Iowa bias, albeit not nearly as strong as many here) I wouldn't be able to put Brooks ahead of Dudley after watching what happened when they wrestled......................

And it wasn't a defensive fall, or a fluke 'got caught' deal. Everyone including Brooks knows Dudley likes the cradle, and yet he allowed it to happen by slowly coming up with his head near his knee.
Cradle, turn, pin.

 

[wasdt21]

a tech fall shows more dominance than some pins, tech is match long ,pin is momentary.

 

[DonHawkeye]

And it wasn't a defensive fall, or a fluke 'got caught' deal. Everyone including Brooks knows Dudley likes the cradle, and yet he allowed it to happen by slowly coming up with his head near his knee.
Cradle, turn, pin.

yes Brooks has 1 head to head loss. How he was pinned or lost for that matter has nothing to do with it. You are ignoring the glaring fact that your boy has 2 HEAD TO HEAD losses (The Most Important Factor) to guys in the B1G and these guys both have only 1 loss. 1 less loss than Dudley.

Brooks has only 1 loss as well. He has a head to head win over 1 of these 1 loss guys and 3 more wins than the other.

Why would Dudley jump over 2 guys that he lost HEAD to HEAD so he could jump Brooks? makes no sense at all if we are looking at just the B1G matches as their body of work.

And why would Brooks drop below 2 guys he has more wins than and a head to head win over?

I just don't get why people are even arguing me on this. This has to be about as simple of a seeding situation there is.

So with your logic I think you would have to go
1) Ab
2) Gravina
3) McC
4) Dudley
5) Brooks

I think that is silly since Brooks will have more wins than all but Ab And Gravina and will have a HEAD to HEAD win over Gravina.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I think your just finding a way to continue arguing. I always thought that getting beat was getting beat regardless. You've convinced me msu158 to "Ignore your posts".

Congrats MSU158. You have rid yourself of this tool bag.

 

[DonHawkeye]

seriously Don Hawkey .... are u really a serious wrestling fan? I in no way want to come to your board and be labeled a 'flamer' ...but really ...he dodged Abounader? ...not even remotely close ...the comment about 'he was losing'.in the other match is lame ...doesn't Iowa pride themselves on winning the 3rd period? ...not sure where McCutcheon is in that top4 pecking order but all PSU fans are pretty comfortable where ever he lands ... but whoever he wrestles will get whatever they want and a bit more ...again do not intend to flame as I love this board more than any except PSU ..but this is a great board

Did he not wrestle the meet before and after Michigan? I don't know the motives but that sure meets the definition of dodge to me.

 

[07mantle]

Did he not wrestle the meet before and after Michigan? I don't know the motives but that sure meets the definition of dodge to me.

again ...not interested in 'flaming' anyone ...and really not worth parsing word definitions. all I'll say is Cutch is a hard nosed guy who doesn't fit the description of a 'dodger' even remotely ... what you are also saying reflects also on the coaching staff philosophy ...imagine the outcry if someone were to imply a Iowa wrestler/ Tom Brands dodged someone

 

[wasdt21]

if it was said on bwi it would not bother me at all,micky.