Senior WH Officials: Trump wants to withdraw from NATO

[Hawk_4shur]

I didn't read Nat's comment that way. I read it that you didn't weight those losses of life appropriately.

That's always a legit question when we back military operations. I would say that we as a nation absolutely don't value those lives enough. We aren't the only nations or groups who look the other way or pretend we are justified when we arguably should be horrified.

First, I am not in favor of, or against, NATO. I honestly want to know the benefit of a withdrawal.

You're right about one thing - I didn't weigh the value of human life, because I don't understand the connection. Are you suggesting that if the US wasn't a part of NATO, there would be fewer wars (or other military actions)? If this is true, why?

 

[seminole97]

I have no idea...neither do you.

So NATO is a bulwark against a threat we can’t even imagine or articulate.
That’s good work if you can get it.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

So NATO is a bulwark against a threat we can’t even imagine or articulate.
That’s good work if you can get it.

Why can't we imagine it? Perhaps you can't but Russia invaded Crimea. I can imagine them getting into all kinds of mischief. Turkey is getting pissed off. They could create issues. I can imagine all kinds of problems in the years ahead. If all we need to justify NATO is an imagination...we better maintain our ties.

Perhaps you just lack an imagination or the ability to articulate?

 

[seminole97]

Easy.
1. Russia doesn't want to set off nukes next door.

They’ve set off hundreds on top of themselves.



But to your point it seems like the several thousand we hold would give them pause.

2. Europe trades with Russia. We mostly don't.
Interestingly enough, although we don't trade that much with Russia, we run a trade deficit with them.

Sounds like a case for more trade and less sanctions.

 

[aflachawk]

Fun fact...Article 5 has been invoked once by NATO.....in defense of the United States

On the evening of 12 September 2001, less than 24 hours after the attacks, the Allies invoked the principle of Article 5. Then NATO Secretary General Lord Robertson subsequently informed the Secretary-General of the United Nations of the Alliance's decision.

The North Atlantic Council – NATO’s principal political decision-making body – agreed that if it determined that the attack was directed from abroad against the United States, it would be regarded as an action covered by Article 5. On 2 October, once the Council had been briefed on the results of investigations into the 9/11 attacks, it determined that they were regarded as an action covered by Article 5.

By invoking Article 5, NATO members showed their solidarity toward the United States and condemned, in the strongest possible way, the terrorist attacks against the United States.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm

So the only time it’s been invoked is so we could spends hundreds of billion dollars in Afghanistan, lose thousands more American (and allied) lives, kill god knows how many folks over there, to what end exactly?

That’s not a good selling point.

I want to withdraw from NATO because the Russia threat is a joke.

Read about how scared the Germans are of Russia: link

it was invoked because our county was attacked and we lost almost 3,000 citizens

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

it was invoked because our county was attacked and we lost almost 3,000 citizens

True...but it kind of counters the argument that we get nothing out of NATO. The NATO countries upheld their mutual defense obligations...

 

[aflachawk]

it was invoked because our county was attacked and we lost almost 3,000 citizens

True...but it kind of counters the argument that we get nothing out of NATO. The NATO countries upheld their mutual defense obligations...

of course it does. I do not agree with getting out at all

 

[Nat Algren]

NATO is a protection racket... a stepping stone to geographical control. They are no more wanted in Germany than the Mafia or the neighborhood bully who threatens to smash your face in when you won't hand over your lunch money. As Americans who kicked that lymie king off American soil in the 18th century, you would think we'd understand better.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

NATO is a protection racket... a stepping stone to geographical control. They are no more wanted in Germany than the Mafia or the neighborhood bully who threatens to smash your face in when you won't hand over your lunch money. As Americans who kicked that lymie king off American soil in the 18th century, you would think we'd understand better.

I disagree Comrade Algren

 

[Nat Algren]

I disagree Comrade Algren

You can if you wish, Senator McCarthy. However, Brzezinski knows a hell of a lot more than you and those are his words.

Do you know it has been US-UK policy to take control of Russia since 1904? Of course you don't. It's the geographical pivot to China. Look up Halford Mackinder and the Heartland Theory. Russia and China are detested BECAUSE they refuse to bend their knee to the Oligarchs who control America. They will not surrender their sovereignty and that pisses them off.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Do you know it has been US-UK policy to take control of Russia since 1904? Of course you don't. It's the geographical pivot to China. Look up Halford Mackinder and the Heartland Theory. Russia and China are detested BECAUSE they refuse to bend their knee to the Oligarchs who control America. They will not surrender their sovereignty and that pisses them off.

 

[Nat Algren]

Cute gif. That's what I would expect from a military grunt. Not sure if you have the attention span or vocabulary to listen to a Harvard guy and a Yale PhD discuss exactly what I posted. But, here it is...w/o the bumper sticker.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Cute gif. That's what I would expect from a military grunt. Not sure if you have the attention span or vocabulary to listen to a Harvard guy and a Yale PhD discuss exactly what I posted. But, here it is...w/o the bumper sticker.

View embedded media

RT America? Seriously?

 

[Nat Algren]

RT America? Seriously?

That's why you will always be stupid. A Harvard guy and a Yale PhD (now a Prof at U-Wisconsin). Do you think propaganda exists in this country? Or is it just every other country?

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

That's why you will always be stupid. A Harvard guy and a Yale PhD (now a Prof at U-Wisconsin). Do you think propaganda exists in this country? Or is it just every other country?

I know RT is propaganda. Don’t you?

 

[Nat Algren]

I know RT is propaganda. Don’t you?

Do you always have trouble answering questions?

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Do you always have trouble answering questions?

Sorry...propaganda exists in every country. To one degree or another....have to sift through it.

 

[Nat Algren]

Sorry...propaganda exists in every country. To one degree or another....have to sift through it.

Exactly. There are 3 sides to every story. I don't /won't trust any of them. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. I play Devil's advocate for no other reason than the propaganda that is spewed from our side and permeates throughout...HROT in particular...like little lemmings. When eminent scholars (Stephen Cohen, John Mearsheimer and Jack Matlock) have article after article rejected by the editors of WaPo, NYT and WSJ... a light bulb has to go off in your head and say this doesn't pass the smell test. Can everyone really have the same opinion on this? Of course not. Dissent is being silenced. Just this week, for the mere questioning the possibility of leaving NATO, members of Congress actually said Trump should be impeached. This is unbelievable. Why? Financials and military publications are a good place for info. They deal in fact.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Exactly. There are 3 sides to every story. I don't /won't trust any of them. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. I play Devil's advocate for no other reason than the propaganda that is spewed from our side and permeates throughout...HROT in particular...like little lemmings. When eminent scholars (Stephen Cohen, John Mearsheimer and Jack Matlock) have article after article rejected by the editors of WaPo, NYT and WSJ... a light bulb has to go off in your head and say this doesn't pass the smell test. Can everyone really have the same opinion on this? Of course not. Dissent is being silenced. Just this week, for the mere questioning the possibility of leaving NATO, members of Congress actually said Trump should be impeached. This is unbelievable. Why? Financials and military publications are a good place for info. They deal in fact.

You're correct to question news etc....I just disagree with your conclusions and the sources you seem to rely on. Your contributions are welcome though...even though I usually disagree with them.

Comrade

 

[Nat Algren]

You're correct to question news etc....I just disagree with your conclusions and the sources you seem to rely on. Your contributions are welcome though...even though I usually disagree with them.

Comrade

You don't agree that the US and UK have been lusting for control of Russia's natural resources for 100 years?

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

You don't agree that the US and UK have been lusting for control of Russia's natural resources for 100 years?

US and UK companies certainly want a piece of them...that’s nothing new. They want to make money. You extrapolate that to the extreme in your arguments though.

 

[Nat Algren]

Why can't we imagine it? Perhaps you can't but Russia invaded Crimea. I can imagine them getting into all kinds of mischief. Turkey is getting pissed off. They could create issues. I can imagine all kinds of problems in the years ahead. If all we need to justify NATO is an imagination...we better maintain our ties.

Perhaps you just lack an imagination or the ability to articulate?

Russia did NOT invade Crimea. A referendum vote was taken and they overwhelmingly sought protection by Russia. Pre and post Gallup polls #'s confirm this. The Eastern half of Ukraine is pro-Russian. The democratically elected Yanukovych rebuffed the West's offer to join NATO and the EU in November '13. So, he was targeted for extinction. Obama and Soros staged a coup. It's irrefutable. Obama financed neo-nazis to ethnically cleanse the eastern regions where 90% voted for Yanukovych.

 

[Nat Algren]

US and UK companies certainly want a piece of them...that’s nothing new. They want to make money. You extrapolate that to the extreme in your arguments though.

Nothing extreme about it. Halford Mackinder presented his Heartland theory to the Royal Geographical Society in London 1904. Brzezinski and Kissinger have been influenced by him. They feared a Sino-Russian alliance. Together, with India and the region as well, account for 75% of the world's population. Russia alone possesses $75 Trillion in natural resources.

Go to the 1 minute mark in this video or read his book, The Grand Chessboard by Brzezinski. That's a good source, no?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

First, I am not in favor of, or against, NATO. I honestly want to know the benefit of a withdrawal.

You're right about one thing - I didn't weigh the value of human life, because I don't understand the connection. Are you suggesting that if the US wasn't a part of NATO, there would be fewer wars (or other military actions)? If this is true, why?

See my earlier comment. I don't know the answer. It could go either way.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Turkey is getting pissed off. They could create issues. I can imagine all kinds of problems in the years ahead.

True, but NATO can't help with that one. They are part of NATO.

I don't know why they are part of NATO. I have trouble spotting their presence on or in the North Atlantic. But that's true for several members.

When we think of the original basis for NATO, it seems like a sound idea. But it has grown way beyond those boundaries in membership and purpose. Which doesn't make it bad. But could mean a public debate on its value and our role is worth having.

I certainly don't trust Trump on this, but I don't object to raising questions. And it wouldn't surprise me if scaling back NATO in some ways turns out to be a good idea. I just wish we had better leader shepherding us through any changes. And not doing so with bluster, bad facts and a reckless disregard of treaties and agreements that have proven their value.

 

[Nat Algren]

It's not accurate for people to compare the 70 years prior to NATO to the post 70. Nukes have a way of keeping people honest. It's that whole vaporizing thing.

The architect of Cold War containment, Dr. George Kennan, warned that moving NATO into Eastern Europe and former Soviet republics would prove a “fateful error.” This would “inflame the nationalistic and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion” and “restore the atmosphere of the cold war in East-West relations.” Kennan was proven right.

The Bush and Clinton crime families have, along with Obama, violated the agreement of James Baker and Mikhail Gorbachev. It was agreed that they would NOT move 1 inch to the east. Now we are in their sphere and it is provocative. Nothing good can come of 2 powers with that many nukes and rubbing noses. One tiny spark can eliminate humanity.