So let's say we get free college....
- Thread starter HawktimusPrime
- Start date
I wonder if you could go back for free under this program? It would be sort of fun to take classes if you didn't really care about a degree.
Germany has free tuition to public universities.
The student is responsible for paying for books and room/board.
The biggest difference is that there are limited spots in Universities and the requirements to attend are much tougher. Many students from wealthy families that can't meet the requirements go abroad for school...example: very limited spots for students that want to go into the medical career fields...kids that don't qualify end up going to places like Romania.
Since there are limited spots and the requirements are high...the German system points many kids towards "trades" like being and electrician for example. They have an apprenticeship program...ie kids learn to be an electrician while going to a trade school AND working at a business for a couple years.
I actually think the German system is pretty good.
The main problem I have with it is they basically make kids decide which route they take at age 16-17.
I think the U.S could benefit from an apprenticeship type program because I personally believe we have too many kids going to University....spending big $$$ and coming away with worthless degrees. We've been brainwashed into thinking everybody needs to go to a University and meanwhile....businesses have a hard time finding kids that are qualified to do technical type trades.
Cool, I get what he means, but I just don't like the 'human capital' part. It's too dehumanizing for my tastes.
I do like this system better by the way. Focusing on actual skills and making a point to develop them rather than worrying about just being in school.
Well you can pin a star on your wall with the rest of us. No one thinks it should be illegal to call you a PC warrior.
If no one is paying any tuition, who is going to pay the professor's or maintain the ivory towers? Are the taxpayers fitting the bill or are the professor's just going to work for free?
I already owe $155,000 for my share of the national debt, and now I have to pay for some stranger's free college?
I do too...both daughters go/went to German school. I will say this though...it's pretty cut throat. You either sink or swim. Their "High School" equivalent has 3 levels...our region has 2 because of budget cuts. Gymnasium is the highest...then Realschule and then Grundschule. Gymnasium is cut throat and the class size...at least in our region is large. You fail a couple core classes...you're out. It's very, very common to get your kids tutors. We did for math and Latin/French. Basically the Gymnasium kids are on a path to university...they finish at 16 and then have to get their "Arbiteur" (sp?) which I would say is the American equivalent of a 2 yr degree (germans don't have associates degrees). University usually last 3 years as compared to our 4. They do this between the ages of 16-18 typically...can go a bit longer if they do their year of social work...
Anyway...you're supposed to be able to go from Realschule and get an Arbiteur (sp?) and go to University but it's very difficult because they end up way behind the Gymnasium kids.
Like I said in my original post...I like the system but...it really makes it difficult for "late bloomers" ie kids that don't get things together until their late teens. They funnel them into those pathways rather early....
I do think the apprenticeship aspect for kids that want to go into trades is excellent though and something we should be looking into....
Say I was a late bloomer in that system. I graduated one of the lower tiered high school tracks and went into a trade. At some point in later age, can I go back to Arbiteur or directly to a university as an adult?
Yes...it just gets pretty difficult at that point and I don't believe it's very common. The big thing to overcome is the gap between your schooling in Realschule (2nd tier) and what you need to do for an Arbiteur to qualify for university. In the American system you can overcome what you didn't learn in HS by taking basic courses in Junior College over even in University. They don't really have that in Germany...at least as far as I can tell. It's really a sink or swim type deal and that's why kids tend to get tudors over here.
This whole discussion is really ridiculous and would destroy our country. Bernie in general would destroy our country. If you want help going to college, join the military. They give you money to help pay for your education after your service and honestly, what incentive would there be for anyone to join the military if they're suddenly offered free college?
It was a Republic for a while. Then then turned into a Democracy and self-destructed. Bread and circuses.
You talking about the Roman empire? It went from a republic to a dictatorship....
Can anybody define the limits on any level?
Just public schools?
Can I go to college forever on the government dime?
Can I flunk a bunch and still go?
How many years ca I do it?
Does it include room and board ?
If the answer is yes to most of these I think my wife and I will go back to college when we are in our late 50's. Take an easy major, live in married housing, eat at the cafeteria for free 24/7, enjoy going to sports, and than fricking retire the day we graduate.
Since it is all free our investments will grow nicely during those four years of free riding.
Entire idea is f'ing stupid.
Today you can go to juco and than two more years at a state school and not be that far in debt.
Students need to take college more seriously for one, before anyone should ever give this a serious debate. Kids are paying for school and still failing, and not taking it seriously. It also doesn't help that the some degrees are practically worthless.
What's funny is that so many of these kids go to school, party the whole time, do average in their grades, major in whatever, and get out and end up working for an insurance company or something. I'd love to see a test of how many people graduate, and how many of them actually stick to what they majored in.
From Republic where land owners ruled (just like Greece, regular people and slaves had no voice) to empire/dictatorship under Caesar for the next 500 years
Ol' Doodle asked many of these same questions in the thread a little while ago entitled "How Bernie Plans To Pay For His Stuff" or something like that. And it was the effective end of the thread.
But since we're on the subject again, let's add to the mix.
- What about in-state vs. out-of-state? Michigan tuition is much higher than Iowa State.
- Is there a cap on how much each student can spend? If so, what if that amount doesn't cover the cost of their school of choice (assuming the students even retain the right of choice)?
- Do kids in, say, Mississippi get to go to schools in California for free? Or do they ONLY get "free" college if they go to a school in their state? Bernie and his supporters like to point to how this would just be a natural outcropping of the primary and secondary "free" education system. That's great. But the reason "free" school at the local level works is precisely because it takes place at the LOCAL level. The people who live, work, shop, pay taxes in Anytown, USA....send their kids to the schools in Anytown, USA. That's not how college works....unless, as Doodle alluded to, Bernie is somehow going to require everyone to go to college within a certain geographic radius of their home in order to qualify for "free" college.
- If you flunk out, do you have to pay back the money? Or is that just the "price of doing business"?
- Will there be any sort of limits on which majors are covered? Should taxpayers...whether the monolithic "Wall Street" that Bernie likes to talk about, or just regular folks...really be required to foot the bill for someone to get a Theater Arts or Religious Studies degree?
- Will there be a post-graduation viability litmus...assessing the value of your degree and the prospects for you being a contributing member of working society post-college? Or will you be able to just go and spend your days smoking unfiltered cigarettes and philosophizing on the Quad with the other pseudo-intellectuals.....or drinking and chasing girls/guys...and then graduate on Uncle Sam's dime and be a layabout? Oh, wait...at least they won't have "crushing debt" to worry about...so that should make everyone happy, right?!?
The thing is...if you go to school and spend boatloads of your money, or loan money, or your parents money....and you basically major in getting drunk and jerking off back-to-back with your frat bros, and come away from college with no prospects for gainful employment and utterly ill-prepared to face the real world....that's on YOU! YOU suffer the figurative and literal costs of your anemic post-secondary educational endeavors.
But if you do the same thing with taxpayers' money....that's on all of us.
All of this having been said, Ol' Doodle is more than happy to listen to the DETAILS, if anyone actually has any. You might want to start by outlining the wholesale changes in the structure and culture of the entire U.S. university system that will be necessary for "free college for all" to have even the slightest chance of succeeding.
The Prime approves of the Doodles post here. This is very well done and I applaud thee.
I'm not endorsing Bernie's plan, but a quick look at his site answers some of these I think.
No in-state v. out of state. Public universities would be free. You have to apply and be accepted, the more prestigious would be more difficult to get into.
No cap, tuition is free. You have to be accepted and could flunk out.
You could go anywhere, you have to apply and be accepted. It's not being paid for locally.
Don't have to pay it back, tuition is free, nothing to pay back.
No limit on majors, you can take whatever a college offers as long as you continue to meet the standards for the program.
No post grad analysis. Seems like a good idea even in today's system. Students should understand the marketability of their major vs. cost of attaining it. I know there was such data when I was in college for my major, you just had to care enough to look.
Not an endorsememt, just hoping to move the convo along.
Germans do it.
Have to pay for room, board and books.
Have to qualify for whatever University academic program...harder to get into programs than I think American Universities.
Flunk...you're out.
So basically the money system is better, because at least in that case, you have the ability to go back if you flunk out. Instead of having to get in line again.
What I think is missed in this debate is...in order for it to work and be financially feasible...entry requirements have to get tougher.
Right now in the states...basically anybody can go to college. Grades not good enough or SAT too low...go to JC and college. For profit University's need students...hence the lowering of standards. We have to get out of the mind set that every kid needs to go to college to be successful. More emphasis needs to be placed on learning trades....electrician, plumber, mechanic, machinest ect....there are jobs out there for those folks at decent pay. We just look down our nose on those folks even though they're essential.
Every parent has been conditioned to think their kid needs to go to college in order to have a successful life and it just isn't true. Heck, many folks that get degrees end up working a trade.
Right now in the states...basically anybody can go to college. Grades not good enough or SAT too low...go to JC and college. For profit University's need students...hence the lowering of standards. We have to get out of the mind set that every kid needs to go to college to be successful. More emphasis needs to be placed on learning trades....electrician, plumber, mechanic, machinest ect....there are jobs out there for those folks at decent pay. We just look down our nose on those folks even though they're essential.
Every parent has been conditioned to think their kid needs to go to college in order to have a successful life and it just isn't true. Heck, many folks that get degrees end up working a trade.
Of course its not going to happen. Its just the opening negotiating point. What should be important is investing in ourselves. If we do it, we are better off. We used to do it, we know it works. College used to be hugely subsidized by the government. Several years ago we started pulling college funding and forced kids to take on more debt. Simply return to the model many of you enjoyed in the 80's and before and we are fine. Don't get your panties in a bunch because of the word free.
This could have been a non issue in Iowa.
When casinos opened in Iowa much of the profit should have went to the Iowa colleges. It was money we didn't have before. It would have been perfect.
When casinos opened in Iowa much of the profit should have went to the Iowa colleges. It was money we didn't have before. It would have been perfect.
Nope. Look it up if you won't believe me. It should be obvious an Emperor is not a democratic institution. The bread and circuses was how the empire distracted and controlled the mob.
This. Changing some of the whacky student loan financing rules alone would help immensely. The point is that we need to address a problem. Well said.
