So this Sides, Clark, Fever saga…

[cmhawks99]

*Edit…this is long, don’t read if not interested in the Fever & CC…

It is bizarre to me. I realize we have a 50,000 page thread that I probably could’ve added this to. But I’m very perplexed and I wanted to get some board insight from the basketball savants, that may not like to frequent that thread.

1st off the obvious, AB had a poor night, literally missing 3 point blank assisted layups in the 1st 5 minutes…besides others.

The relevance of that, of course is obvious but it compounds because you can clearly see it frustrates CC, and although I’ve never considered her a stat chaser, I do believe she wants to be credited with an assist when she should get an assist🤷‍♂️ and I believe it undermines her confidence.

Furthermore, she has faded heat for her poor defense, but holy shit, that whole entire organization, even Lexie Hull, I don’t think you could even say is a “great defender” they are miserable in every facet, they have times where they play decently, but they are a revolving door on the interior in particular.

As far as Mitchell, Wheeler and the other guards… I’m going to candidly admit my getting on Twitter several weeks ago was a big-time mistake, reading all that bullshit has made “me” bitter and I cringe at all the “Clark fans” consistently blaming her teammates…. with that said CC throws some sloppy passes from time to time, but you can generally see what she saw and more often than not. If they’re not deflected, they are in the area, Mitchell and Wheeler routinely throw balls 5 to 10 feet high or left or right? I get it, shit happens, but I don’t think you want those girls being the ones taking chances on their passes🤷‍♂️ I actually like Wheeler I think she’s a solid human being and Mitchell for the most part can be fun to watch but holy shit she makes a lot of stupid decisions…

Look at it like this, CC is aggressive, and is going to take some chances, then you have Mitchell who has supreme confidence in her ability, great, that’s fine, but she’s a horrific passer and dribbles into trouble routinely. Wheeler is a much less skilled & confident variation of Mitchell, Wallace isn’t a great defender and really not a particularly terrific ball handler and Lexie Hull is long & athletic, but not overly skilled…DOH!!

That’s what we have in the guard court?

Now I’m not in the we shouldn’t have got rid of Celeste Taylor camp, so I wasnt overly impressed with her in the few minutes that she was on the court. Yes it’s probably true, she didn’t get much of a chance, but she also looked lost in my mind. With that said those are our guards, including Berger, who I actually kind of like, but is a spaz.

And our Biggs, I honestly don’t know where to start and stop. I really think you take CC and AB and blow up the rest of the team.

Now for the main thrust, and I do apologize for the length…somewhere along the line either someone is completely full of shit, or there is a serious miscommunication. You can tell CC is not as confident in things as she was. She is routinely passing up shots, I know for a fact, she can hit a mid range jumper. There are multiple times a game where she’s at the 15-18 foot mark and could pull it up, but she’s always looking for the perfect pass to feed her teammates.

Now is that because of confidence in her passing ability, or is she just being altruistic, does she feel like her teammates and Coach don’t believe in her or will get mad? We have this super odd, somewhat racially motivated dichotomy here between Clark and Reese and the WNBA in particular, but at the risk of stating the obvious…,

You can’t in any fashion, compare a PF a relentless one for sure, but a power forward that you turn loose like a middle linebacker and say go get the ball and throw it up in the air… she’s actually phenomenal at that, meaning Reese.

But it is not at all like a point guard, that you send out there and say hey go figure out how to win some games and while you’re at it shoot enough, but don’t piss off your teammates. I mean seriously what the ****… at that time somebody, the GM, the coach, a head teammate that wants to win has to step in and say hey she is our best option. We’re gonna have to trust her and fit in where we can get in?!

This team is a mess, and you can see it in the way Clark’s playing… And I’m not suggesting she isn’t blameless quite frankly she clearly has let something get in her her head… right, wrong or indifferent, she is a part of the problem, but I don’t think she is truly being supported or communicated to in the best manner, yes, she seems wise beyond her years, but there’s no way somebody that is as high strung and motivated as she is, can’t have some insecurities, I know a little bit about getting in my head and she is clearly in hers..


thoughts…,

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

 

[Hawksfor3]

The coach hasn't figured out how to get her some space. Defenders attach themselves to her like parasites. If the coach can't figure it out, then get someone there who can. Or, CC is gonna have to figure it out by herself. Too much disorganized chaos out there.

 

[HawkeyeGenius]

I think Christie Sides is a below average coach. Outside of Clark, Boston, and Wheeler the talent isn't exactly incredible though.

 

[djwoody]

It's a weak roster with a weak coach. The kind of roster that earns you the #1 pick two years in a row. Getting Fagbenle back will help, and I'm still trying to understand why Samuelson only got 4 minutes last night, while Kristy Wallace played 18 and did nothing.

 

[cmhawks99]

It's a weak roster with a weak coach. The kind of roster that earns you the #1 pick two years in a row. Getting Fagbenle back will help, and I'm still trying to understand why Samuelson only got 4 minutes last night, while Kristy Wallace played 18 and did nothing.

Yes, Katie Lou is pretty limited. She’s not a great interior score. She’s not a terrific defender or rebounder but she runs the court and when she’s knocking down three-pointers she’s a fantastic floor spacer…

Kristy Wallace wouldn’t see the floor for me. She’s not a knockdown shooter, I don’t know where in the hell sides comes up with the thought that she’s a good defender, she’s not a terrific ball handler or passer. Hull is longer, quicker and athletic… much more upside.

 

[BrewHawk]

I think Christie Sides is a below average coach. Outside of Clark, Boston, and Wheeler the talent isn't exactly incredible though.

Wheeler? You mean Mitchell?

 

[cmhawks99]

Wheeler? You mean Mitchell?

I think probably that’s what he meant. With that said Mitchell does a lot of things that make you shake your head and wheeler is probably the better teammate

 

[littlez]

*Edit…this is long, don’t read if not interested in the Fever & CC…

It is bizarre to me. I realize we have a 50,000 page thread that I probably could’ve added this to. But I’m very perplexed and I wanted to get some board insight from the basketball savants, that may not like to frequent that thread.

1st off the obvious, AB had a poor night, literally missing 3 point blank assisted layups in the 1st 5 minutes…besides others.

The relevance of that, of course is obvious but it compounds because you can clearly see it frustrates CC, and although I’ve never considered her a stat chaser, I do believe she wants to be credited with an assist when she should get an assist🤷‍♂️ and I believe it undermines her confidence.

Furthermore, she has faded heat for her poor defense, but holy shit, that whole entire organization, even Lexie Hull, I don’t think you could even say is a “great defender” they are miserable in every facet, they have times where they play decently, but they are a revolving door on the interior in particular.

As far as Mitchell, Wheeler and the other guards… I’m going to candidly admit my getting on Twitter several weeks ago was a big-time mistake, reading all that bullshit has made “me” bitter and I cringe at all the “Clark fans” consistently blaming her teammates…. with that said CC throws some sloppy passes from time to time, but you can generally see what she saw and more often than not. If they’re not deflected, they are in the area, Mitchell and Wheeler routinely throw balls 5 to 10 feet high or left or right? I get it, shit happens, but I don’t think you want those girls being the ones taking chances on their passes🤷‍♂️ I actually like Wheeler I think she’s a solid human being and Mitchell for the most part can be fun to watch but holy shit she makes a lot of stupid decisions…

Look at it like this, CC is aggressive, and is going to take some chances, then you have Mitchell who has supreme confidence in her ability, great, that’s fine, but she’s a horrific passer and dribbles into trouble routinely. Wheeler is a much less skilled & confident variation of Mitchell, Wallace isn’t a great defender and really not a particularly terrific ball handler and Lexie Hull is long & athletic, but not overly skilled…DOH!!

That’s what we have in the guard court?

Now I’m not in the we shouldn’t have got rid of Celeste Taylor camp, so I wasnt overly impressed with her in the few minutes that she was on the court. Yes it’s probably true, she didn’t get much of a chance, but she also looked lost in my mind. With that said those are our guards, including Berger, who I actually kind of like, but is a spaz.

And our Biggs, I honestly don’t know where to start and stop. I really think you take CC and AB and blow up the rest of the team.

Now for the main thrust, and I do apologize for the length…somewhere along the line either someone is completely full of shit, or there is a serious miscommunication. You can tell CC is not as confident in things as she was. She is routinely passing up shots, I know for a fact, she can hit a mid range jumper. There are multiple times a game where she’s at the 15-18 foot mark and could pull it up, but she’s always looking for the perfect pass to feed her teammates.

Now is that because of confidence in her passing ability, or is she just being altruistic, does she feel like her teammates and Coach don’t believe in her or will get mad? We have this super odd, somewhat racially motivated dichotomy here between Clark and Reese and the WNBA in particular, but at the risk of stating the obvious…,

You can’t in any fashion, compare a PF a relentless one for sure, but a power forward that you turn loose like a middle linebacker and say go get the ball and throw it up in the air… she’s actually phenomenal at that, meaning Reese.

But it is not at all like a point guard, that you send out there and say hey go figure out how to win some games and while you’re at it shoot enough, but don’t piss off your teammates. I mean seriously what the ****… at that time somebody, the GM, the coach, a head teammate that wants to win has to step in and say hey she is our best option. We’re gonna have to trust her and fit in where we can get in?!

This team is a mess, and you can see it in the way Clark’s playing… And I’m not suggesting she isn’t blameless quite frankly she clearly has let something get in her her head… right, wrong or indifferent, she is a part of the problem, but I don’t think she is truly being supported or communicated to in the best manner, yes, she seems wise beyond her years, but there’s no way somebody that is as high strung and motivated as she is, can’t have some insecurities, I know a little bit about getting in my head and she is clearly in hers..


thoughts…,

Very well said. I really can't argue w/any of that to be honest. It's a bit weird honestly. Granted they had beaten mostly mediocre to poor teams on their little win streak but it seemed they were playing the right way and coming together. Blowing that lead in Chicago in meltdown mode and Clark not scoring or getting an assist in the 4th quarter really has seemed to put them down a bad rabbit hole. I've never seen her look like she did last night so unsure with the ball. I do think she isn't in sync w/Sides and it's got to come to a head at some point. CC is the face of the league whether she deserves it or not. And that's certainly not a shot at her. Her numbers are still really solid for playing on such a shit team w/a shit coach but it's not even entertaining basketball. Eventually the 15K or whatever that are coming to her games in Indiana are not going to keep coming back if this is the way they continue to play.

 

[cmhawks99]

Very well said. I really can't argue w/any of that to be honest. It's a bit weird honestly. Granted they had beaten mostly mediocre to poor teams on their little win streak but it seemed they were playing the right way and coming together. Blowing that lead in Chicago in meltdown mode and Clark not scoring or getting an assist in the 4th quarter really has seemed to put them down a bad rabbit hole. I've never seen her look like she did last night so unsure with the ball. I do think she isn't in sync w/Sides and it's got to come to a head at some point. CC is the face of the league whether she deserves it or not. And that's certainly not a shot at her. Her numbers are still really solid for playing on such a shit team w/a shit coach but it's not even entertaining basketball. Eventually the 15K or whatever that are coming to her games in Indiana are not going to keep coming back if this is the way they continue to play.

2 things…

It's a bit weird honestly.

Quite frankly, it’s beyond bizarre and I’m struggling to even process it and figure out where the blame truly lies. I guess like most things it’s multifaceted. Although let’s be honest, we often times make things multifaceted, when they dont have to be🤷‍♂️

…. CC is the face of the league whether she deserves it or not. And that's certainly not a shot at her.

Yes, she is & may “deserve” may be the most salient point. There are plenty of people that feel like she doesn't deserve it, but you’re a smart guy and I’m sure you can agree with this although it’s probably a poor analogy…doh 🤪

But if I hire you and you automatically increase my exposure 30%, just for being you or I can hire Bilbo Baggins and he’s a highly skilled guy but he’s kind of a doofus and he’s not terribly marketable and he doesn’t necessarily attract any new eyes. Who the hell am I gonna hire?

Again, certainly not a one off extrapolation, but there is a major element out there, and I’ve steered clear of the racial connotations, but there is clearly some people out there that are desperately trying to deny what CC has done for the league or if we want to go with the media phrase “the Clark effect”.

And I even get it, certainly Aj’a Wilson is an incredible basketball player, and she’s far from the only one and the Aces do have good fanfare, and I would suggest several of the teams have great regional fanfare, but there is literally no denying the statistical evidence, but there are people out there that will die on that hill, as ignorant as it is.

And I know I’ve seen you say this and I believe you’ve seen me say it. She is not the best player in the league or in the world, but I think by this time she is one of the 20 best and she’s only going to get better if they don’t burn her ass out…..

And there are not, any other players that are playing the game like she is, yes she turns the ball over too much. Yes sometimes she gets carried away taking 32 foot shots, yes Chelsea Gray is an incredible passer and yet past that I don’t know that there’s anybody else better than her, yes there are several percentage shooters better than her, but it is absolutely flat out exciting to see a woman pull up and shoot a 30 foot shot. Those are extremely marketable items.

And if people want to deny that, that’s on them, but statistically speaking they’re morons🤷‍♂️

That’s my soapbox for the day… You inspired me I guess😂

 

[ChiPackHawk]

*Edit…this is long, don’t read if not interested in the Fever & CC…

It is bizarre to me. I realize we have a 50,000 page thread that I probably could’ve added this to. But I’m very perplexed and I wanted to get some board insight from the basketball savants, that may not like to frequent that thread.

1st off the obvious, AB had a poor night, literally missing 3 point blank assisted layups in the 1st 5 minutes…besides others.

The relevance of that, of course is obvious but it compounds because you can clearly see it frustrates CC, and although I’ve never considered her a stat chaser, I do believe she wants to be credited with an assist when she should get an assist🤷‍♂️ and I believe it undermines her confidence.

Furthermore, she has faded heat for her poor defense, but holy shit, that whole entire organization, even Lexie Hull, I don’t think you could even say is a “great defender” they are miserable in every facet, they have times where they play decently, but they are a revolving door on the interior in particular.

As far as Mitchell, Wheeler and the other guards… I’m going to candidly admit my getting on Twitter several weeks ago was a big-time mistake, reading all that bullshit has made “me” bitter and I cringe at all the “Clark fans” consistently blaming her teammates…. with that said CC throws some sloppy passes from time to time, but you can generally see what she saw and more often than not. If they’re not deflected, they are in the area, Mitchell and Wheeler routinely throw balls 5 to 10 feet high or left or right? I get it, shit happens, but I don’t think you want those girls being the ones taking chances on their passes🤷‍♂️ I actually like Wheeler I think she’s a solid human being and Mitchell for the most part can be fun to watch but holy shit she makes a lot of stupid decisions…

Look at it like this, CC is aggressive, and is going to take some chances, then you have Mitchell who has supreme confidence in her ability, great, that’s fine, but she’s a horrific passer and dribbles into trouble routinely. Wheeler is a much less skilled & confident variation of Mitchell, Wallace isn’t a great defender and really not a particularly terrific ball handler and Lexie Hull is long & athletic, but not overly skilled…DOH!!

That’s what we have in the guard court?

Now I’m not in the we shouldn’t have got rid of Celeste Taylor camp, so I wasnt overly impressed with her in the few minutes that she was on the court. Yes it’s probably true, she didn’t get much of a chance, but she also looked lost in my mind. With that said those are our guards, including Berger, who I actually kind of like, but is a spaz.

And our Biggs, I honestly don’t know where to start and stop. I really think you take CC and AB and blow up the rest of the team.

Now for the main thrust, and I do apologize for the length…somewhere along the line either someone is completely full of shit, or there is a serious miscommunication. You can tell CC is not as confident in things as she was. She is routinely passing up shots, I know for a fact, she can hit a mid range jumper. There are multiple times a game where she’s at the 15-18 foot mark and could pull it up, but she’s always looking for the perfect pass to feed her teammates.

Now is that because of confidence in her passing ability, or is she just being altruistic, does she feel like her teammates and Coach don’t believe in her or will get mad? We have this super odd, somewhat racially motivated dichotomy here between Clark and Reese and the WNBA in particular, but at the risk of stating the obvious…,

You can’t in any fashion, compare a PF a relentless one for sure, but a power forward that you turn loose like a middle linebacker and say go get the ball and throw it up in the air… she’s actually phenomenal at that, meaning Reese.

But it is not at all like a point guard, that you send out there and say hey go figure out how to win some games and while you’re at it shoot enough, but don’t piss off your teammates. I mean seriously what the ****… at that time somebody, the GM, the coach, a head teammate that wants to win has to step in and say hey she is our best option. We’re gonna have to trust her and fit in where we can get in?!

This team is a mess, and you can see it in the way Clark’s playing… And I’m not suggesting she isn’t blameless quite frankly she clearly has let something get in her her head… right, wrong or indifferent, she is a part of the problem, but I don’t think she is truly being supported or communicated to in the best manner, yes, she seems wise beyond her years, but there’s no way somebody that is as high strung and motivated as she is, can’t have some insecurities, I know a little bit about getting in my head and she is clearly in hers..


thoughts…,

As great as Caitlin is - she is 100% a stat chaser. Most athletes are.

 

[cmhawks99]

As great as Caitlin is - she is 100% a stat chaser. Most athletes are.

Probably so

 

[BrewHawk]

I think probably that’s what he meant. With that said Mitchell does a lot of things that make you shake your head and wheeler is probably the better teammate

Agree. And a much better defender as well.

 

[Bro D]

I like most of your post but i'm sorry, CC is not part of the problem whatsoever. The roster construction is completely ridiculous and the coaching staff is in over their heads. I'm doing my best to reserve judgement on the Fever front office.. but if the roster and coaching staff stay largely intact heading in to next season, and they haven't aggressively started building their roster/coaching staff around CCs strenghts, then its time to sound the emergency bells.

My Bulls have a joke of a front office.. not sure I can take another one from the Fever, especially one that has the future of a generational prospect in their hands.

 

[Bro D]

Keep Boston, KLS and Hull and get rid of everyone else. Lots and lots of work to do to this roster.

Load up on shooters and players that run the court. Run Run Run Run Run Run Run

 

[cmhawks99]

Keep Boston, KLS and Hull and get rid of everyone else. Lots and lots of work to do to this roster.

Load up on shooters and players that run the court. Run Run Run Run Run Run Run

On that note, they’re spacing running down the court isn’t very good in my opinion, but they also need somebody that can break down a defense like Mitchell, but can back it out again. Once she drops below the free-throw line that ball ain’t never coming back out…

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Keep Boston, KLS and Hull and get rid of everyone else. Lots and lots of work to do to this roster.

Load up on shooters and players that run the court. Run Run Run Run Run Run Run

As long as you have a true rim protector in the pros, you can surround yourself with 4 other run and gun type players.

For a local example, think Erek Hansen, who was B10 DPOY for Iowa in 2006. He could score inside a bit and rebound and get putbacks, but his specialty was shot blocking, and clogging the lane at 6'11".

Yes those are harder to come by in the women's game, but really you get just one player like that, and that's all Clark needs. You can fill the rest with players she can drive and dish and get more out of the shallow P&Rs, because then she's passing it to a guard/forward with more quickness off the dribble, and potentially a better mid/long range game.

 

[Bro D]

On that note, they’re spacing running down the court isn’t very good in my opinion, but they also need somebody that can break down a defense like Mitchell, but can back it out again. Once she drops below the free-throw line that ball ain’t never coming back out…

Its tough for me to break down their roster and give an overall opinion until CC is allowed to be herself. I'm not sure if she's being hesitant because she's playing the good rookie, or if its because Sides and CCs teammates (mainly mitchell, smith) are actively trying to make sure its "their team" which has hurt her confidence.. or maybe a combination of both. Either way, the true potential of this team is TBD until Sides and the rest of the team accept the fact CC is going to be the best player on the court almost every game, they give her the keys and let her control the game. Be comfortable with her shooting the ball 20 times a game. Because if you don't, you shouldn't be here

 

[kceasthawk]

I think Christie Sides is a below average coach. Outside of Clark, Boston, and Wheeler the talent isn't exactly incredible though.

Wheeler is not good either. Thats why as their point guard last year they made it clear their one urgent need was for a point guard in the draft. She has a few moments here and there but she's a backup player at best......

 

[Bro D]

Just an interesting comparison.. the year before LeBron got drafted, Ricky Davis was the leading scorer of the Cavs averaging 20 points a game. In LeBron's rookie year, they traded Davis midseason. In his second year, they fired Paul Silas midseason. By his fourth season, he pretty much single-handedly took them to the FInals. Unforutnatley for them, they never surrounded him with talent and he left.

Hopefully they get rid of Mitchell like the Cavs did Davis and they get rid of Sides like they did with Silas, albeit hopefully sooner. Giving her the keys will get them going in the right direction like the Cavs with LeBron.. hopefully for the Fever's sake they do a better job of surrounding her with talent otherwise she could peace out like LeBron did, albeit in a much more professional and less douchey way than him

 

[eyesofhawk]

1. The Fever do not have a good roster. They shouldn't be expected to be winning games.
And it's very hard, if not impossible, to sustain efficient play in a team sport, no matter how good an individual is, if the team isn't any good. That's what team sports are. Jordan was able to take over games in ways that CC will never be able to, and it took several years until his teams started winning.

2. For several reasons, including the overrating that I've warned you all about for two years, teams are motivated to beat CC. Loyd is clearly one of the best players in the world. But do you think it coincidence that her two highest scoring games this season have come against the Fever? A bad team getting the best effort from its opponents is not a good combination for the Fever.

3. CC is a rookie. There's an adjustment period for her. And it also takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of, and realize who they are with CC on the floor.

4. This team has no identity. But they have a player capable of having an identity built around. Realize who they are with CC on the floor is exactly what needs to be done.

5. That appears to be exactly what they are hoping to forge going forward. Recent comments from Sides have her imploring CC to shoot more and her teammates to set her up better.

6. So we'll see. It seems Sides now has the correct vision in place. Hopefully the rest of the team and management are able to fall into place to help build it.

7. It will still take time. This team will be bad for a couple years

 

[Bro D]

I've warned you all about for two years, teams are motivated to beat CC.

Every time you post, you have always say I told you so to the general board about something. I stlil have no idea what you're talking about or who you're talking to but I find it pretty funny

 

[3ZSDAD]

The coach hasn't figured out how to get her some space. Defenders attach themselves to her like parasites. If the coach can't figure it out, then get someone there who can. Or, CC is gonna have to figure it out by herself. Too much disorganized chaos out there.

Cc is somewhat limited as she can shoot 3's only going left or straight. She is very reluctant to shoot going right from outside 10 ft. If she is going right most defenders play that she is going to the rim. Boston is limited in that she has no explosiveness. She is strong somewhat like Caleb Swanigan was but she has to bull through someone to get a shot off. The other problem is she has bad hands, especially if there is any contact. CC is learning how to play through contact as in college ball a lot of it is called a foul. Then Mitchell has always been used to playing with the ball and not being punished for trying high risk plays. Same as CC wasn't punished by CLB for risky passes that ended up as thrnovers. The rest of the Fever roster has major limitations.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Every time you post, you have always say I told you so to the general board about something. I stlil have no idea what you're talking about or who you're talking to but I find it pretty funny

Well I must be right a lot then because I post fairly often.

What I've been talking about is something that has been obvious enough for the whole WNBA to have taken notice.

MANY fans are far out of line and simply offensive with some of the crap they post. Then, my common sense leveling is what's been laughed at and labeled as crazy. The "I told you so" posts are much deserved

 

[MitchLL]

I'm convinced the grind of going from the college season to the WNBA without any meaningful rest and recuperation is having an effect on CC.

But as stated...there's a reason the Fever have had the #1 pick two years running.

 

[littlez]

1. The Fever do not have a good roster. They shouldn't be expected to be winning games.
And it's very hard, if not impossible, to sustain efficient play in a team sport, no matter how good an individual is, if the team isn't any good. That's what team sports are. Jordan was able to take over games in ways that CC will never be able to, and it took several years until his teams started winning.

2. For several reasons, including the overrating that I've warned you all about for two years, teams are motivated to beat CC. Loyd is clearly one of the best players in the world. But do you think it coincidence that her two highest scoring games this season have come against the Fever? A bad team getting the best effort from its opponents is not a good combination for the Fever.

3. CC is a rookie. There's an adjustment period for her. And it also takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of, and realize who they are with CC on the floor.

4. This team has no identity. But they have a player capable of having an identity built around. Realize who they are with CC on the floor is exactly what needs to be done.

5. That appears to be exactly what they are hoping to forge going forward. Recent comments from Sides have her imploring CC to shoot more and her teammates to set her up better.

6. So we'll see. It seems Sides now has the correct vision in place. Hopefully the rest of the team and management are able to fall into place to help build it.

7. It will still take time. This team will be bad for a couple years

I agree with everything but number 6. What is her “vision that she has in place?” Because I don’t see it at all.

 

[Beattheohiostate]

There's an adjustment period for her. And it also takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of, and realize who they are with CC on the floor.

CC played college basketball for four years. She was the national POY two years in a row and has won almost every major award there is for two years in a row. Every game she played for Iowa last season was on TV. And so you say "it takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of"? How much time, exactly, especially given all the "world-class athletes" we're told inhabit the WNBA. I don't know where those athletes are when CC throws a pass and they fumble it, miss it completely, or stop before they get to the open space to meet the ball. Half of the TOs CC is charged with are the direct fault of her teammates' lack of talent and poor basketball IQ. It's sickening.

I appreciate that your post has good intentions, but there's no need to make excuses for the Indiana Fever's incredible failures. My gawd. They should have been assembling a roster to complement CC, and they should have given her the keys to the ball club along with her jersey the night she was drafted. They should have had that roster preparing for CC all winter. You would think CC just dropped down from Venus and nobody knew what she was capable of . . .

If the Fever had been playing like Iowa plays with CC running the show from day one, the Fever would be at least a top five team in the league, despite the ridiculous early-season schedule. You can't put leg irons on a thoroughbred that just won the Kentucky Derby and then tell it to go out and win the Preakness.

The Fever, from the front office to the head coach, has done everything wrong in handling Caitlin Clark. Everything. You have to let a thoroughbred run or you'll end up turning it into a plow horse.

That was the genius of Lisa Bluder. She saw who CC was as a competitor and as a superstar, so instead of forcing CC to adjust to a standard team design, Bluder put CC at the center of everything and built the team around her. Christie Sides did the opposite. She put handcuffs on the biggest star in women's basketball history, and she deserves to be fired for it. It's an unforgivable coaching sin.

And it's a damn shame CC didn't tell the Fever that she wouldn't sign unless they also drafted Kate Martin. CC had all the leverage, and she should have used it. Having Kate with her through this mess would have helped tremendously.

Ultimately though, with the country looking into the abyss of hell with a convicted felon, pathological liar, and traitorous sociopath who threatens the soul of democracy again running for president of the US, the problems of CC and the WNBA don't amount to a hill of beans. God help us all.

 

[spiderland]

I agree with everything but number 6. What is her “vision that she has in place?” Because I don’t see it at all.

I think her vision is pretty simple: if I want to keep my job, I’d better make sure I pin all of the team’s failures on whatever Caitlin is or isn’t doing.

 

[LukaDuka]

CC played college basketball for four years. She was the national POY two years in a row and has won almost every major award there is for two years in a row. Every game she played for Iowa last season was on TV. And so you say "it takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of"? How much time, exactly, especially given all the "world-class athletes" we're told inhabit the WNBA. I don't know where those athletes are when CC throws a pass and they fumble it, miss it completely, or stop before they get to the open space to meet the ball. Half of the TOs CC is charged with are the direct fault of her teammates' lack of talent and poor basketball IQ. It's sickening.

I appreciate that your post has good intentions, but there's no need to make excuses for the Indiana Fever's incredible failures. My gawd. They should have been assembling a roster to complement CC, and they should have given her the keys to the ball club along with her jersey the night she was drafted. They should have had that roster preparing for CC all winter. You would think CC just dropped down from Venus and nobody knew what she was capable of . . .

If the Fever had been playing like Iowa plays with CC running the show from day one, the Fever would be at least a top five team in the league, despite the ridiculous early-season schedule. You can't put leg irons on a thoroughbred that just won the Kentucky Derby and then tell it to go out and win the Preakness.

The Fever, from the front office to the head coach, has done everything wrong in handling Caitlin Clark. Everything. You have to let a thoroughbred run or you'll end up turning it into a plow horse.

That was the genius of Lisa Bluder. She saw who CC was as a competitor and as a superstar, so instead of forcing CC to adjust to a standard team design, Bluder put CC at the center of everything and built the team around her. Christie Sides did the opposite. She put handcuffs on the biggest star in women's basketball history, and she deserves to be fired for it. It's an unforgivable coaching sin.

And it's a damn shame CC didn't tell the Fever that she wouldn't sign unless they also drafted Kate Martin. CC had all the leverage, and she should have used it. Having Kate with her through this mess would have helped tremendously.

Ultimately though, with the country looking into the abyss of hell with a convicted felon, pathological liar, and traitorous sociopath who threatens the soul of democracy again running for president of the US, the problems of CC and the WNBA don't amount to a hill of beans. God help us all.

The GM's & coaching in the WNBA basically are garbage. There's a reason the top women's college basketball coaches don't jump into the WNBA. It's gotta be the MONEY. Geno, Mularky, Staley, Bluder, no way in hell were they going to that shit show. No one ever cared about the WNBA before Caitlin arrived & now all the players & some coaches are bitching about all the attention she gets & why not MEEEEEEE... Who wants to put up with that? Not this guy, or that guy, or that woman.... I would consider it a step down from major D1 women's basketball.

 

[eyesofhawk]

I agree with everything but number 6. What is her “vision that she has in place?” Because I don’t see it at all.

Sides has recently said that she wants CC taking more shots.

Whether "vision" is the correct word or not, more aggressiveness from CC seems to be the direction Sides wants to take this.

We'll see how it plays out. Because you are correct, that vision is something that hasn't been visible to this point

 

[cmhawks99]

As long as you have a true rim protector in the pros, you can surround yourself with 4 other run and gun type players.

For a local example, think Erek Hansen, who was B10 DPOY for Iowa in 2006. He could score inside a bit and rebound and get putbacks, but his specialty was shot blocking, and clogging the lane at 6'11".

Yes those are harder to come by in the women's game, but really you get just one player like that, and that's all Clark needs. You can fill the rest with players she can drive and dish and get more out of the shallow P&Rs, because then she's passing it to a guard/forward with more quickness off the dribble, and potentially a better mid/long range game.

Kiah Stokes is like that for the Aces, Aj’a isn’t much of a shot blocker

 

[cmhawks99]

Well I must be right a lot then because I post fairly often.

What I've been talking about is something that has been obvious enough for the whole WNBA to have taken notice.

MANY fans are far out of line and simply offensive with some of the crap they post. Then, my common sense leveling is what's been laughed at and labeled as crazy. The "I told you so" posts are much deserved

Meh… I’m not quite sure what “you told them and who you told” but there are a lot of pretty sharp dudes on this board and in particular people that have weighed in on this women’s basketball discussion for about nine months? Which is why I posed the thread so I’m not sure you’ve said anything all that unique?! am I missing something?

 

[kceasthawk]

CC played college basketball for four years. She was the national POY two years in a row and has won almost every major award there is for two years in a row. Every game she played for Iowa last season was on TV. And so you say "it takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of"? How much time, exactly, especially given all the "world-class athletes" we're told inhabit the WNBA. I don't know where those athletes are when CC throws a pass and they fumble it, miss it completely, or stop before they get to the open space to meet the ball. Half of the TOs CC is charged with are the direct fault of her teammates' lack of talent and poor basketball IQ. It's sickening.

I appreciate that your post has good intentions, but there's no need to make excuses for the Indiana Fever's incredible failures. My gawd. They should have been assembling a roster to complement CC, and they should have given her the keys to the ball club along with her jersey the night she was drafted. They should have had that roster preparing for CC all winter. You would think CC just dropped down from Venus and nobody knew what she was capable of . . .

If the Fever had been playing like Iowa plays with CC running the show from day one, the Fever would be at least a top five team in the league, despite the ridiculous early-season schedule. You can't put leg irons on a thoroughbred that just won the Kentucky Derby and then tell it to go out and win the Preakness.

The Fever, from the front office to the head coach, has done everything wrong in handling Caitlin Clark. Everything. You have to let a thoroughbred run or you'll end up turning it into a plow horse.

That was the genius of Lisa Bluder. She saw who CC was as a competitor and as a superstar, so instead of forcing CC to adjust to a standard team design, Bluder put CC at the center of everything and built the team around her. Christie Sides did the opposite. She put handcuffs on the biggest star in women's basketball history, and she deserves to be fired for it. It's an unforgivable coaching sin.

And it's a damn shame CC didn't tell the Fever that she wouldn't sign unless they also drafted Kate Martin. CC had all the leverage, and she should have used it. Having Kate with her through this mess would have helped tremendously.

Ultimately though, with the country looking into the abyss of hell with a convicted felon, pathological liar, and traitorous sociopath who threatens the soul of democracy again running for president of the US, the problems of CC and the WNBA don't amount to a hill of beans. God help us all.

Wow. Once again I was just getting ready to like you post and then I got to the last paragraph. You just can't help yourself can you. Why the Trump/Biden crap has to leak into many of your posts I'll never understand. Most people come to this site to escape all of that cesspool.....

 

[cmhawks99]

The GM's & coaching in the WNBA basically are garbage. There's a reason the top women's college basketball coaches don't jump into the WNBA. It's gotta be the MONEY. Geno, Mularky, Staley, Bluder, no way in hell were they going to that shit show. No one ever cared about the WNBA before Caitlin arrived & now all the players & some coaches are bitching about all the attention she gets & why not MEEEEEEE... Who wants to put up with that? Not this guy, or that guy, or that woman.... I would consider it a step down from major D1 women's basketball.

It is most assuredly a step down, and @EvilMonkeyInTheCloset encapsulated it well. A quick google reveals Becky Hammon is the only coach above 1 million dollars.

Lisa Bluder, for example, made 1.4 million and Dawn Staley 2.9

 

[cmhawks99]

Wow. Once again I was just getting ready to like you post and then I got to the last paragraph. You just can't help yourself can you. Why the Trump/Biden crap has to leak into many of your posts I'll never understand. Most people come to this site to escape all of that cesspool.....

Yeah, I wasn’t going to even respond to that but I’m sure you are like me, if Homer Simpson was president I believe we have all the checks and balances in line that the sun is still gonna come up tomorrow and we’re gonna continue being America. In fact, I’m prepared to wager a significant amount of money on it, just because I get a little tired of these “democracy is going to end “people on both sides of the aisle

 

[eyesofhawk]

CC played college basketball for four years. She was the national POY two years in a row and has won almost every major award there is for two years in a row. Every game she played for Iowa last season was on TV. And so you say "it takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of"? How much time, exactly, especially given all the "world-class athletes" we're told inhabit the WNBA. I don't know where those athletes are when CC throws a pass and they fumble it, miss it completely, or stop before they get to the open space to meet the ball. Half of the TOs CC is charged with are the direct fault of her teammates' lack of talent and poor basketball IQ. It's sickening.

I appreciate that your post has good intentions, but there's no need to make excuses for the Indiana Fever's incredible failures. My gawd. They should have been assembling a roster to complement CC, and they should have given her the keys to the ball club along with her jersey the night she was drafted. They should have had that roster preparing for CC all winter. You would think CC just dropped down from Venus and nobody knew what she was capable of . . .

If the Fever had been playing like Iowa plays with CC running the show from day one, the Fever would be at least a top five team in the league, despite the ridiculous early-season schedule. You can't put leg irons on a thoroughbred that just won the Kentucky Derby and then tell it to go out and win the Preakness.

The Fever, from the front office to the head coach, has done everything wrong in handling Caitlin Clark. Everything. You have to let a thoroughbred run or you'll end up turning it into a plow horse.

That was the genius of Lisa Bluder. She saw who CC was as a competitor and as a superstar, so instead of forcing CC to adjust to a standard team design, Bluder put CC at the center of everything and built the team around her. Christie Sides did the opposite. She put handcuffs on the biggest star in women's basketball history, and she deserves to be fired for it. It's an unforgivable coaching sin.

And it's a damn shame CC didn't tell the Fever that she wouldn't sign unless they also drafted Kate Martin. CC had all the leverage, and she should have used it. Having Kate with her through this mess would have helped tremendously.

Ultimately though, with the country looking into the abyss of hell with a convicted felon, pathological liar, and traitorous sociopath who threatens the soul of democracy again running for president of the US, the problems of CC and the WNBA don't amount to a hill of beans. God help us all.

I can't help that last night's debate has struck a nerve with you, although I can't argue with your political thoughts. It's a broken system for sure.

Your college to pro comparison only goes so far.

Every new team has to adjust to each other. Especially rookies joining a pro league. CC hasn't been able to do everything in the pros that she was able to do in college. If she has an adjustment period, which she certainly does, then of course her team and coaches have to adjust and learn what CC can and can't do. It's not making excuses for the Fever. It's just the way it is.

Every new team has to learn each other. Harding and Freeman have a palpable chemistry, but they're going to have to learn the rest of a new team this year. I'm sure Brady was well aware of what Randy Moss could do. But they had to learn how to play together. I'm sure Malone, Payton, Shaq, and Kobe all knew each other's games. But it seemed injuries never game them enough time to gel and learn how to play together. It even took Iowa a while to figure it all out. It was just two years ago that they got bounced from the tournament on their home floor by Creighton.

If you think there is any way in hell that the Fever should be at least a top five team in the league you are completely delusional.

Yes, building around CC is a great idea. But what exactly should the Fever have done (especially before drafting her) to have started this process? Are you aware of the contract situations of all the players in the league? Are you aware of what teams would have traded what players? It's easy to say they should have built around CC. But I'm guessing you have no idea to what extent that may or may not have been possible.

No, CC didn't have leverage to keep other teams from drafting Martin. And how would you quantify the "tremendous" help that Kate would have been? Doubtful that it would have resulted in more than one more win.

If it's so obvious to build around CC, then why are you calling Bluder a genius for having done so? One or the other must not be true.

Give it time. There's a good chance CC will end up being a winner in that league. There's also a good chance it won't be any time soon

 

[eyesofhawk]

Meh… I’m not quite sure what “you told them and who you told” but there are a lot of pretty sharp dudes on this board and in particular people that have weighed in on this women’s basketball discussion for about nine months? Which is why I posed the thread so I’m not sure you’ve said anything all that unique?! am I missing something?

I was called out for calling out posters in general, which is something you've done many times yourself. Usually we've done our noble work over on the football board.

As for the CC matter....her mass GOAT crowning began about two years ago. Since then, I've been telling the crowners how wrong they are, and have warned that the mass crowing is going to cause a lot of pissed off WNBA stars to put a target on CC's back. I've been proven correct about both

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

1. The Fever do not have a good roster. They shouldn't be expected to be winning games.
And it's very hard, if not impossible, to sustain efficient play in a team sport, no matter how good an individual is, if the team isn't any good. That's what team sports are. Jordan was able to take over games in ways that CC will never be able to, and it took several years until his teams started winning.

2. For several reasons, including the overrating that I've warned you all about for two years, teams are motivated to beat CC. Loyd is clearly one of the best players in the world. But do you think it coincidence that her two highest scoring games this season have come against the Fever? A bad team getting the best effort from its opponents is not a good combination for the Fever.

3. CC is a rookie. There's an adjustment period for her. And it also takes time for her team to realize what she's capable of, and realize who they are with CC on the floor.

4. This team has no identity. But they have a player capable of having an identity built around. Realize who they are with CC on the floor is exactly what needs to be done.

5. That appears to be exactly what they are hoping to forge going forward. Recent comments from Sides have her imploring CC to shoot more and her teammates to set her up better.

6. So we'll see. It seems Sides now has the correct vision in place. Hopefully the rest of the team and management are able to fall into place to help build it.

7. It will still take time. This team will be bad for a couple years

Wow you went from pretentious to apologist pretty quick.

 

[cmhawks99]

I was called out for calling out posters in general, which is something you've done many times yourself. Usually we've done our noble work over on the football board.

As for the CC matter....her mass GOAT crowning began about two years ago. Since then, I've been telling the crowners how wrong they are, and have warned that the mass crowing is going to cause a lot of pissed off WNBA stars to put a target on CC's back. I've been proven correct about both

Well, that was going to happen period. didn’t know it because I was wasn’t paying attention but Sabrina apparently faded the heat 1st and CC had so much more explosive college career and even a start to her Pro career that it was inevitable. The point being I don’t believe the fanatics had much to do with it 🤷‍♂️

 

[NCHawkeye24]

There is work to be done all around. CC is going to have to learn how to finish better in the paint and be able to keep the bigger defenders that switch on her hip. Get them in foul trouble. AB is going to have to learn how to set better screens at the right places on the floor and be able to both knock down the 12-15 footer as well as roll to the rim. She is really doing none of that right now. The 3 compliment players need to be able to knock down the open three as well as play D.

What I am describing here is the modern NBA high screen and roll. I know everyone compares CC to Steph Curry because of his range but I see her a lot more like prime James Harden with a little more range. Biggest reason here is that Steph is usually much smaller than his matchup but in CC's case she is not small. Like Harden she can handle the ball, shoot off the dribble and has incredible vision. Harden thrived in Dantoni's system and that is exactly the system that I see that Indiana needs to employ. Obviously everything is built around a player like that, but, the real key is to have that athletic big. Can AB do it? No so far. As far as the other players, Mitchell is a terrible fit with CC and the other wings are just not any good.