So this Sides, Clark, Fever saga…

[eyesofhawk]

Well, that was going to happen period. didn’t know it because I was wasn’t paying attention but Sabrina apparently faded the heat 1st and CC had so much more explosive college career and even a start to her Pro career that it was inevitable. The point being I don’t believe the fanatics had much to do with it 🤷‍♂️

You don't think mass GOAT crowning of a college player is going to piss pro stars off and further motivate them to beat the rookie?

Since I was paying attention; I'll tell you Sabrina did not receive the treatment that Caitlin has in terms of defensive gameplaning. Nor did the whole country ever call her the GOAT

 

[eyesofhawk]

Wow you went from pretentious to apologist pretty quick.

?

 

[DanHawkPella]

It's a personnel problem exacerbated by a coach who doesn't know how to configure rotations and actions that complement the roster she has.

• Boston wants the ball fed to her on the traditional low block, but is only effective there against the bottom half of the league, and she doesn't run the court well.
• Mitchell just wants isolation plays with the ball in her hands, rather than feeding off of Clark with the ball in her hands
• Wheeler can't shoot from distance or pass well and just wants to attack the rim and throw stuff at it, which explains her poor effective FG% in her career. She offers almost nothing off the ball.
• Smith is a decent inside scorer against PF's but not Centers who are too big and long. Tries to space the court at the 3 point line but is very inconsistent there. Not great defensively and doesn't run the court as well as she should.
• Wallace and Hull are good, active defenders but aren't great off the ball and teams always help off of them (and Wheeler) to take away Clark.

Clark needs players who are very good in the screen and roll and who can space the floor.

Mitchell is good spacing the floor, but wants the ball in her hands. I thought she'd be great in transition but she keeps dropping the ball.

Boston is horrible at screens and horrible at rolls. She lacks burst and when given the ball on the short roll (to the FT line) she is slow to attack and slow to pass and her decision making is at times horrible so teams keep getting away with double teaming Clark.

Fagbenle is great imo - runs the court for Clark and is very good with the screen and roll. She's the only one that clearly fits Clark imo.

Things that show me that Sides is over her head:

1. Her rotations at times are ridiculous, and often those times come at critical parts of the game. Wheeler's minutes are unjustified and she often plays unproductive players too long.

2. Her in game management is horrible with time outs and play calls at critical times. Their loss to the Sky was entirely due to her not calling sets that would generate good shots the last 7 minutes. Clark will ALWAYS draw a double team, which should mean you ALWAYS can get a good shot if you do it right. But she's calling plays for Clark to stand on the wing while Wheeler tries to drive or feed Boston on the block against a 6'7" defender. WTF?

3. She keeps running the Boston/Clark pick and roll even though Boston is HORRIBLE catching the ball at 18 feet. Run Samuelson on it and have her flare for a 3 rather than roll to the FT line, or any other number of combinations. But Boston is SLOW on the roll, SLOW to attack and draw help, SLOW to pass to the open 3 point shooter, and can't hit the 16 foot pullup consisently enough. Stop already. (the traditional pick and roll to the rim isn't open due to defenses rotating players there and taking that way).

4. She cannot put the pieces around Clark into an offensive and defensive scheme and rotation package that makes sense. She's made some improvements recently, but not enough to justify keeping her once this road trip is over and the Olympic break starts.

Why someone doesn't take an NBA coach and have them break down the Fever film to identify for all of us what seems obvious is beyond me. NBA coaches can see this stuff and would have credibility - would love for one of them to provide an analysis.

 

[cmhawks99]

You don't think mass GOAT crowning of a college player is going to piss pro stars off and further motivate them to beat the rookie?

Since I was paying attention; I'll tell you Sabrina did not receive the treatment that Caitlin has in terms of defensive gameplaning. Nor did the whole country ever call her the GOAT

That’s not what I said, it was going to happen, period. She did and still does things no woman has ever done. Women don’t effortlessly shoot 30 foot jumpers like they are free throws and throw full court length passes. If there were people that thought she didn’t have holes in her game then they were stupid, but she was so mesmerizing. It was going to piss some people off, period! And the superlatives naturally followed out of that…

The jealousy is always gonna be there, we all have it. We all have to battle it just like we battle insecurity and pride, sometimes within hours of each other 🤷‍♂️

Surely you’ve seen this really bizarre undoing of Michael Jordan stats lately. It’s truly insane….

Call it the human condition. Her being white multiplied it.

 

[cmhawks99]

It's a personnel problem exacerbated by a coach who doesn't know how to configure rotations and actions that complement the roster she has.

• Boston wants the ball fed to her on the traditional low block, but is only effective there against the bottom half of the league, and she doesn't run the court well.
• Mitchell just wants isolation plays with the ball in her hands, rather than feeding off of Clark with the ball in her hands
• Wheeler can't shoot from distance or pass well and just wants to attack the rim and throw stuff at it, which explains her poor effective FG% in her career. She offers almost nothing off the ball.
• Smith is a decent inside scorer against PF's but not Centers who are too big and long. Tries to space the court at the 3 point line but is very inconsistent there. Not great defensively and doesn't run the court as well as she should.
• Wallace and Hull are good, active defenders but aren't great off the ball and teams always help off of them (and Wheeler) to take away Clark.

Clark needs players who are very good in the screen and roll and who can space the floor.

Mitchell is good spacing the floor, but wants the ball in her hands. I thought she'd be great in transition but she keeps dropping the ball.

Boston is horrible at screens and horrible at rolls. She lacks burst and when given the ball on the short roll (to the FT line) she is slow to attack and slow to pass and her decision making is at times horrible so teams keep getting away with double teaming Clark.

Fagbenle is great imo - runs the court for Clark and is very good with the screen and roll. She's the only one that clearly fits Clark imo.

Things that show me that Sides is over her head:

1. Her rotations at times are ridiculous, and often those times come at critical parts of the game. Wheeler's minutes are unjustified and she often plays unproductive players too long.

2. Her in game management is horrible with time outs and play calls at critical times. Their loss to the Sky was entirely due to her not calling sets that would generate good shots the last 7 minutes. Clark will ALWAYS draw a double team, which should mean you ALWAYS can get a good shot if you do it right. But she's calling plays for Clark to stand on the wing while Wheeler tries to drive or feed Boston on the block against a 6'7" defender. WTF?

3. She keeps running the Boston/Clark pick and roll even though Boston is HORRIBLE catching the ball at 18 feet. Run Samuelson on it and have her flare for a 3 rather than roll to the FT line, or any other number of combinations. But Boston is SLOW on the roll, SLOW to attack and draw help, SLOW to pass to the open 3 point shooter, and can't hit the 16 foot pullup consisently enough. Stop already. (the traditional pick and roll to the rim isn't open due to defenses rotating players there and taking that way).

4. She cannot put the pieces around Clark into an offensive and defensive scheme and rotation package that makes sense. She's made some improvements recently, but not enough to justify keeping her once this road trip is over and the Olympic break starts.

Why someone doesn't take an NBA coach and have them break down the Fever film to identify for all of us what seems obvious is beyond me. NBA coaches can see this stuff and would have credibility - would love for one of them to provide an analysis.

You pretty much nailed it. Better than I could have. As you mentioned them I nodded, I’m not a classic X & Os guy even in football. But I do understand spacing, angles, leverage and threat. They don’t have a lot of threats.

I think your thoughts on Katie Lou at the top of the key are brilliant . Then you drop Boston or Smith down low and now you’ve got something. They have to guard Katie Lou out at 18 feet… And I also agree Fengbele is certainly the best at running the floor and futs CCs game, but it’s too much to think she’s ready after being gone for eight games.

Katie Lou also runs the floor pretty well, but she is extremely limited defensively and on the glass.

 

[eyesofhawk]

That’s not what I said, it was going to happen, period. She did and still does things no woman has ever done. Women don’t effortlessly shoot 30 foot jumpers like they are free throws and throw full court length passes. If there were people that thought she didn’t have holes in her game then they were stupid, but she was so mesmerizing. It was going to piss some people off, period! And the superlatives naturally followed out of that…

The jealousy is always gonna be there, we all have it. We all have to battle it just like we battle insecurity and pride, sometimes within hours of each other 🤷‍♂️

Surely you’ve seen this really bizarre undoing of Michael Jordan stats lately. It’s truly insane….

Call it the human condition. Her being white multiplied it.

I'm calling it the fact that all of the sudden everyone started calling CC the GOAT. Have you heard any other women's basketball player called the GOAT over the last two years?

You can spin it however you want, but there's no doubt that it has placed a target on CC's back. If you want to say the target would have already been there, fine, then it has placed a bullseye on her back.

Mesmerizing play doesn't piss people off. Did Curry's 30 footers create enemies? Inappropriate GOAT crowning does piss people off

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

?

?

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

I'm calling it the fact that all of the sudden everyone started calling CC the GOAT. Have you heard any other women's basketball player called the GOAT over the last two years?

You can spin it however you want, but there's no doubt that it has placed a target on CC's back. If you want to say the target would have already been there, fine, then it has placed a bullseye on her back.

Mesmerizing play doesn't piss people off. Did Curry's 30 footers create enemies? Inappropriate GOAT crowning does piss people off

A. Yes there were others

B. That's why people need to stop taking what dumb asses from all walks of life say on Twitter so seriously.

Putting more blame on the media instead of kicking the sh** out of the person this all revolves around and then pointing at them and saying "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE US DO!!!" would be the best way to go don't you agree?...........................

 

[chuck285]

*Edit…this is long, don’t read if not interested in the Fever & CC…

It is bizarre to me. I realize we have a 50,000 page thread that I probably could’ve added this to. But I’m very perplexed and I wanted to get some board insight from the basketball savants, that may not like to frequent that thread.

1st off the obvious, AB had a poor night, literally missing 3 point blank assisted layups in the 1st 5 minutes…besides others.

The relevance of that, of course is obvious but it compounds because you can clearly see it frustrates CC, and although I’ve never considered her a stat chaser, I do believe she wants to be credited with an assist when she should get an assist🤷‍♂️ and I believe it undermines her confidence.

Furthermore, she has faded heat for her poor defense, but holy shit, that whole entire organization, even Lexie Hull, I don’t think you could even say is a “great defender” they are miserable in every facet, they have times where they play decently, but they are a revolving door on the interior in particular.

As far as Mitchell, Wheeler and the other guards… I’m going to candidly admit my getting on Twitter several weeks ago was a big-time mistake, reading all that bullshit has made “me” bitter and I cringe at all the “Clark fans” consistently blaming her teammates…. with that said CC throws some sloppy passes from time to time, but you can generally see what she saw and more often than not. If they’re not deflected, they are in the area, Mitchell and Wheeler routinely throw balls 5 to 10 feet high or left or right? I get it, shit happens, but I don’t think you want those girls being the ones taking chances on their passes🤷‍♂️ I actually like Wheeler I think she’s a solid human being and Mitchell for the most part can be fun to watch but holy shit she makes a lot of stupid decisions…

Look at it like this, CC is aggressive, and is going to take some chances, then you have Mitchell who has supreme confidence in her ability, great, that’s fine, but she’s a horrific passer and dribbles into trouble routinely. Wheeler is a much less skilled & confident variation of Mitchell, Wallace isn’t a great defender and really not a particularly terrific ball handler and Lexie Hull is long & athletic, but not overly skilled…DOH!!

That’s what we have in the guard court?

Now I’m not in the we shouldn’t have got rid of Celeste Taylor camp, so I wasnt overly impressed with her in the few minutes that she was on the court. Yes it’s probably true, she didn’t get much of a chance, but she also looked lost in my mind. With that said those are our guards, including Berger, who I actually kind of like, but is a spaz.

And our Biggs, I honestly don’t know where to start and stop. I really think you take CC and AB and blow up the rest of the team.

Now for the main thrust, and I do apologize for the length…somewhere along the line either someone is completely full of shit, or there is a serious miscommunication. You can tell CC is not as confident in things as she was. She is routinely passing up shots, I know for a fact, she can hit a mid range jumper. There are multiple times a game where she’s at the 15-18 foot mark and could pull it up, but she’s always looking for the perfect pass to feed her teammates.

Now is that because of confidence in her passing ability, or is she just being altruistic, does she feel like her teammates and Coach don’t believe in her or will get mad? We have this super odd, somewhat racially motivated dichotomy here between Clark and Reese and the WNBA in particular, but at the risk of stating the obvious…,

You can’t in any fashion, compare a PF a relentless one for sure, but a power forward that you turn loose like a middle linebacker and say go get the ball and throw it up in the air… she’s actually phenomenal at that, meaning Reese.

But it is not at all like a point guard, that you send out there and say hey go figure out how to win some games and while you’re at it shoot enough, but don’t piss off your teammates. I mean seriously what the ****… at that time somebody, the GM, the coach, a head teammate that wants to win has to step in and say hey she is our best option. We’re gonna have to trust her and fit in where we can get in?!

This team is a mess, and you can see it in the way Clark’s playing… And I’m not suggesting she isn’t blameless quite frankly she clearly has let something get in her her head… right, wrong or indifferent, she is a part of the problem, but I don’t think she is truly being supported or communicated to in the best manner, yes, she seems wise beyond her years, but there’s no way somebody that is as high strung and motivated as she is, can’t have some insecurities, I know a little bit about getting in my head and she is clearly in hers..


thoughts…,

You're pretty much right on. Clark is deferring a lot of shots just to keep a few team mates off her case. If she throws the ball to Mitchell you can damm bet your bottom dollar she'll never see the ball again in that position. She's a good three point shooter but seems to dislike CC.....

 

[cmhawks99]

I'm calling it the fact that all of the sudden everyone started calling CC the GOAT. Have you heard any other women's basketball player called the GOAT over the last two years?

You can spin it however you want, but there's no doubt that it has placed a target on CC's back. If you want to say the target would have already been there, fine, then it has placed a bullseye on her back.

Mesmerizing play doesn't piss people off. Did Curry's 30 footers create enemies? Inappropriate GOAT crowning does piss people off

Look, I have zero issue with you. And it’s not like what you’re saying versus what I’m saying are polar opposites, we are having a parallel discussion, but our points are not going to intersect.

It’s like you’re saying, at least from my perception, that “see you big dummies all of you running around calling her the GOAT. Has pissed these women off” and therefore they’re going to go out of their way to prove she isn’t….

Without conceding the fact that they are putting extra effort into “disproving” somebody who statistically speaking along with the visual “eye test” and the shocking away crowds that are following this girl aren’t, real?!

We are witnessing something that is mostly unprecedented. “Mostly” And I emphasize mostly because jealousy isn’t a new thing. It especially isn’t a new thing as it relates to “new employees”.

If you begin a new job, in a managerial “hired gun“ type of position. Especially from outside the organization, there are going to be people that don’t think you’re any good, don’t think you deserve it, and are gonna fight you tooth & nail to prove that.

Now here’s where the rubber hits the highway. Of course they’re jealous, of course she has been targeted. The fanfare on her journey, for the girl from Iowa, (of all places) is getting talked about more than our entire organization and all of its employees.

But…. An entire organization & “league of coaches“ don’t game plan entire games around “stopping” somebody whose skills aren’t so highly cultivated that they believe that sort of game plan isnt warranted🤷‍♂️

Get me?!

Sure her “crowning” was premature per se. But the coaches and more importantly, the operatives employed to stop her… “Strong rhetoric, I know” 😊 watched the tape and said holy shit. This girl is impressive, we can’t let her show us up.

“If” in their mind, she was “pretty good” but the attention wasn’t warranted, they would’ve played her straight up and “seen what happened”… but that is not what they did. They guarded her 94 feet right from the jump and threw double team after double team after double team at her. “Game planing” to take a brand new professional/employe out of the game. THAT is “highly” unprecedented. They knew they didn’t want her to pop in the league and let her show them up.

Call me naïve, but you can’t just call somebody “the goat” without them doing some pretty amazing things and have the crowds show up in droves to the point the line has circled the stadium five hours before game time?!

And again, I will suggest to you, she didn’t come from Ohio State, she didn’t come from USC, (Huge sporting names) and she didn’t come from UCONN, South Carolina, LSU(I/E: WBB powerhouses with ravenous fan bases) That also coincidentally have glorious histories and a lot of “professionals“ in said organization.

And these people weren’t showing up because they read in the newspaper she was called “the Goat”! They were showing up because Iowa, “a solid program“ but mostly without big name stars, and “Her” put on a show for all the world to see and oh by the way while she was doing it, she routinely shot 30 to 35 foot bombs like they were 15 foot jumpers and while she was at it, she led the country in assist i.e. involved her whole entire team and took down a lot of giants along the way and just “missed” on two championships.

I mean, listen, and I should add all the quotes aren’t to be a prick they are to emphasize certain things and coincidentally there are a lot of “things” to unpack there. It was a perfect storm.

I get your point, she was not and is not “the greatest” of all time. But the odds of her becoming that are still in her favor.

Her detractors are convinced her start has “shown” that she isn’t the greatest.

But I am proposing something else. With a very fresh Coach, and spotty coaching at that and teammates, who also are jealous of her to a degree, not blaming it on them, but it is human nature. On a Poor or at the very least inexperienced team. With a league, that I’m going to confess I am shocked by…has from the very first whistle guarded her like, she indeed “is” one of the best to ever play.

And yet, even though her struggles are obvious, she is indeed impacting the “organization“ and even though there are women in the league with way more experience and seemingly better stats. They aren’t backing off, because they truly believe if they don’t show her that much attention she will indeed show them up…

So as I wrap this up, your insistence is mostly accurate, but as a result of her “genuine skill“ they have deemed their efforts necessary. They haven’t backed off because they “proved their point“ if anything they are ratcheting it up…

It really is a transcendent effort, the kind generated by a “GOAT” ??? If you will.

Now, as an aside, it is getting close to becoming Not, must watch TV for me because I am tired of the racial rhetoric and the horrific coaching & game planning around her. Let’s say Coach K called the Fever and said “hey I want to come in and mentor Christie Sides”. I think most of us agree the team surrounding her isn’t overly talented, but what would her numbers look like then?

2, 3, 4 pts better a game?! More?! 3-4 more wins?! 3-4 more assists.

You’re not taking into equation she really is damn good as a 22-year-old rookie without any off-season, playing 35+ minutes a game, trending towards 40 actually. With the weight of the world on her shoulders and a lot of angry vitriol out there, not only by the “league” but legions of anti-fans.

Again, unprecedented…

 

[Mister_Man]

 

[LukaDuka]

Look, I have zero issue with you. And it’s not like what you’re saying versus what I’m saying are polar opposites, we are having a parallel discussion, but our points are not going to intersect.

It’s like you’re saying, at least from my perception, that “see you big dummies all of you running around calling her the GOAT. Has pissed these women off” and therefore they’re going to go out of their way to prove she isn’t….

Without conceding the fact that they are putting extra effort into “disproving” somebody who statistically speaking along with the visual “eye test” and the shocking away crowds that are following this girl aren’t, real?!

We are witnessing something that is mostly unprecedented. “Mostly” And I emphasize mostly because jealousy isn’t a new thing. It especially isn’t a new thing as it relates to “new employees”.

If you begin a new job, in a managerial “hired gun“ type of position. Especially from outside the organization, there are going to be people that don’t think you’re any good, don’t think you deserve it, and are gonna fight you tooth & nail to prove that.

Now here’s where the rubber hits the highway. Of course they’re jealous, of course she has been targeted. The fanfare on her journey, for the girl from Iowa, (of all places) is getting talked about more than our entire organization and all of its employees.

But…. An entire organization & “league of coaches“ don’t game plan entire games around “stopping” somebody whose skills aren’t so highly cultivated that they believe that sort of game plan isnt warranted🤷‍♂️

Get me?!

Sure her “crowning” was premature per se. But the coaches and more importantly, the operatives employed to stop her… “Strong rhetoric, I know” 😊 watched the tape and said holy shit. This girl is impressive, we can’t let her show us up.

“If” in their mind, she was “pretty good” but the attention wasn’t warranted, they would’ve played her straight up and “seen what happened”… but that is not what they did. They guarded her 94 feet right from the jump and threw double team after double team after double team at her. “Game planing” to take a brand new professional/employe out of the game. THAT is “highly” unprecedented. They knew they didn’t want her to pop in the league and let her show them up.

Call me naïve, but you can’t just call somebody “the goat” without them doing some pretty amazing things and have the crowds show up in droves to the point the line has circled the stadium five hours before game time?!

And again, I will suggest to you, she didn’t come from Ohio State, she didn’t come from USC, (Huge sporting names) and she didn’t come from UCONN, South Carolina, LSU(I/E: WBB powerhouses with ravenous fan bases) That also coincidentally have glorious histories and a lot of “professionals“ in said organization.

And these people weren’t showing up because they read in the newspaper she was called “the Goat”! They were showing up because Iowa, “a solid program“ but mostly without big name stars, and “Her” put on a show for all the world to see and oh by the way while she was doing it, she routinely shot 30 to 35 foot bombs like they were 15 foot jumpers and while she was at it, she led the country in assist i.e. involved her whole entire team and took down a lot of giants along the way and just “missed” on two championships.

I mean, listen, and I should add all the quotes aren’t to be a prick they are to emphasize certain things and coincidentally there are a lot of “things” to unpack there. It was a perfect storm.

I get your point, she was not and is not “the greatest” of all time. But the odds of her becoming that are still in her favor.

Her detractors are convinced her start has “shown” that she isn’t the greatest.

But I am proposing something else. With a very fresh Coach, and spotty coaching at that and teammates, who also are jealous of her to a degree, not blaming it on them, but it is human nature. On a Poor or at the very least inexperienced team. With a league, that I’m going to confess I am shocked by…has from the very first whistle guarded her like, she indeed “is” one of the best to ever play.

And yet, even though her struggles are obvious, she is indeed impacting the “organization“ and even though there are women in the league with way more experience and seemingly better stats. They aren’t backing off, because they truly believe if they don’t show her that much attention she will indeed show them up…

So as I wrap this up, your insistence is mostly accurate, but as a result of her “genuine skill“ they have deemed their efforts necessary. They haven’t backed off because they “proved their point“ if anything they are ratcheting it up…

It really is a transcendent effort, the kind generated by a “GOAT” ??? If you will.

Now, as an aside, it is getting close to becoming Not, must watch TV for me because I am tired of the racial rhetoric and the horrific coaching & game planning around her. Let’s say Coach K called the Fever and said “hey I want to come in and mentor Christie Sides”. I think most of us agree the team surrounding her isn’t overly talented, but what would her numbers look like then?

2, 3, 4 pts better a game?! More?! 3-4 more wins?! 3-4 more assists.

You’re not taking into equation she really is damn good as a 22-year-old rookie without any off-season, playing 35+ minutes a game, trending towards 40 actually. With the weight of the world on her shoulders and a lot of angry vitriol out there, not only by the “league” but legions of anti-fans.

Again, unprecedented…

Sorry, I'm not reading the above post. I'm sure it's well thought out & articulated. But it seems you're writing a dissertation for your PHD in sport fans psychology. Try to condense these thoughts as the average sports fan like me has a very short attention span and cannot read through more than two paragraphs at a time.

 

[Georgia_Hawk]

Boston is great when she is going against players of equal or lesser ability. When she faces the elite defenders, she becomes very hesitant with the ball and her game falls apart (see first 5 mins of Seattle game).

This roster has a lot of weaknesses, but I think few adjustments in the offseason could go a long ways. First, Boston has to hit that mid-range jumper on a consistent basis. She has good shooting form, it seems like a confidence problem. Secondly, if they had a more consisent 3-point shooter, it would be a lot harder to double team Clark. And last, Sides has to go.

 

[eyesofhawk]

A. Yes there were others

B. That's why people need to stop taking what dumb asses from all walks of life say on Twitter so seriously.

Putting more blame on the media instead of kicking the sh** out of the person this all revolves around and then pointing at them and saying "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE US DO!!!" would be the best way to go don't you agree?...........................

A. Who else in the past two years have you heard called the GOAT? Even if you have a name, the mass GOAT crowning of CC has been undeniable.

B. I'm honestly not even sure what you're trying to say here and in your last paragraph. I certainly haven't kicked CC around if that's what you mean.

The media certainly has their hand in it, but they mostly just report what's already out there. And on ESPN, for example, I never saw a lot of GOAT crowning. Most of their talking heads were fighting that notion.

Anyway, my concern is to call out stupid and disrespectful fans every chance I get

 

[cmhawks99]

Sorry, I'm not reading the above post. I'm sure it's well thought out & articulated. But it seems you're writing a dissertation for your PHD in sport fans psychology. Try to condense these thoughts as the average sports fan like me has a very short attention span and cannot read through more than two paragraphs at a time.

I’m sincerely not trying to be a dick when I say this, but…I honestly was working a thought out in my mind and although I’m interested in follow back, I’m not really just speaking to a casual fan.

It definitely was too long, with that said, blaming the over zealous fans and their anointment, although a corollary point, is not a simple causality of what we are seeing.

It maybe and probably is ancillary, but there are deep seated, pride and jealousy components at play that we ALL see in our everyday lives that explain it better.

Anyone who is lifted up, deserved not deserved, who’s to say, that’s an opinion? Is going to have detractors, even if the evidence is there to back it up🤷‍♂️

 

[AWS1022]

A. Who else in the past two years have you heard called the GOAT? Even if you have a name, the mass GOAT crowning of CC has been undeniable.

B. I'm honestly not even sure what you're trying to say here and in your last paragraph. I certainly haven't kicked CC around if that's what you mean.

The media certainly has their hand in it, but they mostly just report what's already out there. And on ESPN, for example, I never saw a lot of GOAT crowning. Most of their talking heads were fighting that notion.

Anyway, my concern is to call out stupid and disrespectful fans every chance I get

Naming someone the GOAT is just an opinion and people are allowed to have their own opinion. And from what I heard, most people were calling her the GOAT of college basketball (which she was) and not the GOAT of the WNBA. Can’t really help that some people aren’t smart enough to understand the difference.

 

[pablow]

Three simple moves to get this team on track. All of them 100% doable.

1. End the CC/AB pick and roll. Let Tami (or Dantas when she's ready) set those picks. Actually, anyone but Boston.

2. Replace Sides on July 17th.

3. Trade Mitchell. She's poison and she is deliberately sabotaging CC. Bye, Bye.

 

[the Howler]

1.) super long posts have no business being on a sports message board. A rhetor should understand his audience a little better. The fun of this medium is distilling ideas down to their essence, and logorrhea is rhetorically dead on arrival.

2.) I can’t live without long form writing as I subscribe to many Substacks, regularly read novels and have completed a dissertation. But a place ridiculously called “Go Iowa Awesome” doesn’t depend on those standards and outcomes. Nor should it.

 

[cmhawks99]

1.) super long posts have no business being on a sports message board. A rhetor should understand his audience a little better. The fun of this medium is distilling ideas down to their essence, and logorrhea is rhetorically dead on arrival.

2.) I can’t live without long form writing as I subscribe to many Substacks, regularly read novels and have completed a dissertation. But a place ridiculously called “Go Iowa Awesome” doesn’t depend on those standards and outcomes. Nor should it.

Fair enough 🤷‍♂️

 

[AWS1022]

Three simple moves to get this team on track. All of them 100% doable.

1. End the CC/AB pick and roll. Let Tami (or Dantas when she's ready) set those picks. Actually, anyone but Boston.

2. Replace Sides on July 17th.

3. Trade Mitchell. She's poison and she is deliberately sabotaging CC. Bye, Bye.

Agree with all three and I would say bring Celeste Taylor back.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Three simple moves to get this team on track. All of them 100% doable.

1. End the CC/AB pick and roll. Let Tami (or Dantas when she's ready) set those picks. Actually, anyone but Boston.

2. Replace Sides on July 17th.

3. Trade Mitchell. She's poison and she is deliberately sabotaging CC. Bye, Bye.

never thought people on somebody's own team would sabotage, but ok I'm willing to buy in....

 

[ROCKY MOUNTAIN HAWK]

Well I must be right a lot then because I post fairly often.

What I've been talking about is something that has been obvious enough for the whole WNBA to have taken notice.

MANY fans are far out of line and simply offensive with some of the crap they post. Then, my common sense leveling is what's been laughed at and labeled as crazy. The "I told you so" posts are much deserved

Granted, I’ve read many, many of your posts but I’ve never once read a post where you were right.

If it happened, I must’ve missed that one.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

A. Who else in the past two years have you heard called the GOAT? Even if you have a name, the mass GOAT crowning of CC has been undeniable. ("Even if you have a name, Im still gonna disagree and make my counter point because I don't think Im wrong!".............................ok.)

B. I'm honestly not even sure what you're trying to say here and in your last paragraph. I certainly haven't kicked CC around if that's what you mean. (Why assume it's about you?.....)

The media certainly has their hand in it, but they mostly just report what's already out there. (Mostly?......heh, well now I know what you do and don't watch. They sure as f*** aren't just an extension of the people's voice.............) And on ESPN, for example, I never saw a lot of GOAT crowning. Most of their talking heads were fighting that notion. (......................😶)

Anyway, my concern is to call out stupid and disrespectful fans every chance I get

Disrespectful to whom?..............

And man this new apologist look for you.

 

[Hendy hawk]

never thought people on somebody's own team would sabotage, but ok I'm willing to buy in....

I think what he's saying is right. Clark can pass her the ball and she will dribble around and either loose it or put up a bad shot and miss.
If Clark became wide open for a shot Mitchel would not pass it to Clark.

 

[Iron Doc]

At the end of the day, when the dust settles, let ANYONE who disrespects Iowa's own Caitlin Clark be cast into The Abyss!!!!!!

 

[cmhawks99]

never thought people on somebody's own team would sabotage, but ok I'm willing to buy in....

I think that’s an over simplification… I don’t think she’s purposely sabotaging her, but she definitely has alpha dog tendencies and there’s an element of jealousy and belief that she has the same skills and is just as good or better

 

[eyesofhawk]

Look, I have zero issue with you. And it’s not like what you’re saying versus what I’m saying are polar opposites, we are having a parallel discussion, but our points are not going to intersect.

It’s like you’re saying, at least from my perception, that “see you big dummies all of you running around calling her the GOAT. Has pissed these women off” and therefore they’re going to go out of their way to prove she isn’t….

Without conceding the fact that they are putting extra effort into “disproving” somebody who statistically speaking along with the visual “eye test” and the shocking away crowds that are following this girl aren’t, real?!

We are witnessing something that is mostly unprecedented. “Mostly” And I emphasize mostly because jealousy isn’t a new thing. It especially isn’t a new thing as it relates to “new employees”.

If you begin a new job, in a managerial “hired gun“ type of position. Especially from outside the organization, there are going to be people that don’t think you’re any good, don’t think you deserve it, and are gonna fight you tooth & nail to prove that.

Now here’s where the rubber hits the highway. Of course they’re jealous, of course she has been targeted. The fanfare on her journey, for the girl from Iowa, (of all places) is getting talked about more than our entire organization and all of its employees.

But…. An entire organization & “league of coaches“ don’t game plan entire games around “stopping” somebody whose skills aren’t so highly cultivated that they believe that sort of game plan isnt warranted🤷‍♂️

Get me?!

Sure her “crowning” was premature per se. But the coaches and more importantly, the operatives employed to stop her… “Strong rhetoric, I know” 😊 watched the tape and said holy shit. This girl is impressive, we can’t let her show us up.

“If” in their mind, she was “pretty good” but the attention wasn’t warranted, they would’ve played her straight up and “seen what happened”… but that is not what they did. They guarded her 94 feet right from the jump and threw double team after double team after double team at her. “Game planing” to take a brand new professional/employe out of the game. THAT is “highly” unprecedented. They knew they didn’t want her to pop in the league and let her show them up.

Call me naïve, but you can’t just call somebody “the goat” without them doing some pretty amazing things and have the crowds show up in droves to the point the line has circled the stadium five hours before game time?!

And again, I will suggest to you, she didn’t come from Ohio State, she didn’t come from USC, (Huge sporting names) and she didn’t come from UCONN, South Carolina, LSU(I/E: WBB powerhouses with ravenous fan bases) That also coincidentally have glorious histories and a lot of “professionals“ in said organization.

And these people weren’t showing up because they read in the newspaper she was called “the Goat”! They were showing up because Iowa, “a solid program“ but mostly without big name stars, and “Her” put on a show for all the world to see and oh by the way while she was doing it, she routinely shot 30 to 35 foot bombs like they were 15 foot jumpers and while she was at it, she led the country in assist i.e. involved her whole entire team and took down a lot of giants along the way and just “missed” on two championships.

I mean, listen, and I should add all the quotes aren’t to be a prick they are to emphasize certain things and coincidentally there are a lot of “things” to unpack there. It was a perfect storm.

I get your point, she was not and is not “the greatest” of all time. But the odds of her becoming that are still in her favor.

Her detractors are convinced her start has “shown” that she isn’t the greatest.

But I am proposing something else. With a very fresh Coach, and spotty coaching at that and teammates, who also are jealous of her to a degree, not blaming it on them, but it is human nature. On a Poor or at the very least inexperienced team. With a league, that I’m going to confess I am shocked by…has from the very first whistle guarded her like, she indeed “is” one of the best to ever play.

And yet, even though her struggles are obvious, she is indeed impacting the “organization“ and even though there are women in the league with way more experience and seemingly better stats. They aren’t backing off, because they truly believe if they don’t show her that much attention she will indeed show them up…

So as I wrap this up, your insistence is mostly accurate, but as a result of her “genuine skill“ they have deemed their efforts necessary. They haven’t backed off because they “proved their point“ if anything they are ratcheting it up…

It really is a transcendent effort, the kind generated by a “GOAT” ??? If you will.

Now, as an aside, it is getting close to becoming Not, must watch TV for me because I am tired of the racial rhetoric and the horrific coaching & game planning around her. Let’s say Coach K called the Fever and said “hey I want to come in and mentor Christie Sides”. I think most of us agree the team surrounding her isn’t overly talented, but what would her numbers look like then?

2, 3, 4 pts better a game?! More?! 3-4 more wins?! 3-4 more assists.

You’re not taking into equation she really is damn good as a 22-year-old rookie without any off-season, playing 35+ minutes a game, trending towards 40 actually. With the weight of the world on her shoulders and a lot of angry vitriol out there, not only by the “league” but legions of anti-fans.

Again, unprecedented…

There's a lot of truth to what you say. But it doesn't disprove what I've said because we are talking about two different things.

Yes, there is undeniable jealousy. Yes, CC is undeniably great.

But I'm talking about the specificity of the meaning of the term GOAT. To have a college player massively crowned the GOAT was offensive to every single player in the WNBA (even though they aren't the GOAT themselves), as it disrespected the level of success that they have achieved in becoming pros. And they've used it as motivation.

Just like the LSU role player that took offense to being left wide open, and went off in the championship game. That was her feeling disrespected, not jealousy.

Sure, calling everything under the sun a GOAT is the "in" thing to do these days. But I've warned all along that the term being thrown around actually is something serious and that it will end up hurting Caitlin. I suppose one could argue that this all will make CC better in the long run. But it certainly hasn't made anything easier for her.

I'm not seeking validation. What I've been saying has had obvious validity to all with any common sense. I only bring it up as a teaching point to all that it applies. There are a lot of stupid and disrespectful fans out there that (for reasons outside of the context of this thread) need to be called out every time the opportunity exists. And this is one of them

 

[ddeanHawk]

Agree with all three and I would say bring Celeste Taylor back.

It would've been nice if she was given a chance atleast, because some out there now suck

 

[cmhawks99]

There's a lot of truth to what you say. But it doesn't disprove what I've said because we are talking about two different things.

Yes, there is undeniable jealousy. Yes, CC is undeniably great.

But I'm talking about the specificity of the meaning of the term GOAT. To have a college player massively crowned the GOAT was offensive to every single player in the WNBA (even though they aren't the GOAT themselves), as it disrespected the level of success that they have achieved in becoming pros. And they've used it as motivation.

Just like the LSU role player that took offense to being left wide open, and went off in the championship game. That was her feeling disrespected, not jealousy.

Sure, calling everything under the sun a GOAT is the "in" thing to do these days. But I've warned all along that the term being thrown around actually is something serious and that it will end up hurting Caitlin. I suppose one could argue that this all will make CC better in the long run. But it certainly hasn't made anything easier for her.

I'm not seeking validation. What I've been saying has had obvious validity to all with any common sense. I only bring it up as a teaching point to all that it applies. There are a lot of stupid and disrespectful fans out there that (for reasons outside of the context of this thread) need to be called out every time the opportunity exists. And this is one of them

Maybe, but as you know, you can’t “fix” stupid and you can’t get people to think like you. She didn’t need the added pressure, but her reputation was going to proceed her no matter what. She will weather the storm be better for it.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Naming someone the GOAT is just an opinion and people are allowed to have their own opinion. And from what I heard, most people were calling her the GOAT of college basketball (which she was) and not the GOAT of the WNBA. Can’t really help that some people aren’t smart enough to understand the difference.

Yes, people are entitled to their opinion. But those opinions still motivated WNBA players to beat CC.

Many felt CC was the GOAT regardless of college or pro.

Very few people ever bothered to make the distinction of college GOAT. Without that distinction being made, there is no reason for it to be implied. Even if that's what they meant, the WNBA players sure didn't interpret it that way.

And even college GOAT is debatable

 

[AWS1022]

Yes, people are entitled to their opinion. But those opinions still motivated WNBA players to beat CC.

Many felt CC was the GOAT regardless of college or pro.

Very few people ever bothered to make the distinction of college GOAT. Without that distinction being made, there is no reason for it to be implied. Even if that's what they meant, the WNBA players sure didn't interpret it that way.

And even college GOAT is debatable

I’ve coached and watched a lot of women’s basketball over the years and Clark is the best player I have ever seen. So I don’t care about the GOAT label because she hasn’t had her career yet, but she is the player with the best overall skill set that I’ve ever seen, so I think a lot of people think like I do….she is the best player they’ve ever seen, so they call her the GOAT. If great players have fragile enough egos to get mad about that, then that’s their problem.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Granted, I’ve read many, many of your posts but I’ve never once read a post where you were right.

If it happened, I must’ve missed that one.

I suppose that would make sense because that's honestly what I feel about a lot of your posts

 

[eyesofhawk]

Disrespectful to whom?..............

And man this new apologist look for you.

Assumed it was about me because it was my post you were responding to. And what you were trying to say wasn't exactly clear

 

[eyesofhawk]

I’ve coached and watched a lot of women’s basketball over the years and Clark is the best player I have ever seen. So I don’t care about the GOAT label because she hasn’t had her career yet, but she is the player with the best overall skill set that I’ve ever seen, so I think a lot of people think like I do….she is the best player they’ve ever seen, so they call her the GOAT. If great players have fragile enough egos to get mad about that, then that’s their problem.

And now it's become CC's problem, which is what I warned of all along.

It's a label that's recklessly been anointed by many; and we now get to see the backlash for that. You've said yourself that most people were calling CC the college GOAT, without making that distinction. You also are aware that people have called CC the GOAT, when really they just mean she's the best they've seen.

So clearly the term was overused. And now CC has to deal with a bunch of pissed off and motivated opponents. This was very easy to see coming.

So for clarification: you'd take Clark over Wilson right now? Are you aware that Wilson just set a league record with her 20th straight 20+ pt game? Are you aware Clark didn't even make the Olympic team?

 

[intrepodor]

I think Christie Sides is a below average coach. Outside of Clark, Boston, and Wheeler the talent isn't exactly incredible though.

General Manager is ultimately responsible for coaches and players.
As we saw with Bluder, the right coach with the right players will equal success.

 

[intrepodor]

You're pretty much right on. Clark is deferring a lot of shots just to keep a few team mates off her case. If she throws the ball to Mitchell you can damm bet your bottom dollar she'll never see the ball again in that position. She's a good three point shooter but seems to dislike CC.....

Mitchell is a black hole meaning she dribble around try to get to the rim and be lucky to hit the backboard.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

And what you were trying to say wasn't exactly clear

 

[Hendy hawk]

And now it's become CC's problem, which is what I warned of all along.

It's a label that's recklessly been anointed by many; and we now get to see the backlash for that. You've said yourself that most people were calling CC the college GOAT, without making that distinction. You also are aware that people have called CC the GOAT, when really they just mean she's the best they've seen.

So clearly the term was overused. And now CC has to deal with a bunch of pissed off and motivated opponents. This was very easy to see coming.

So for clarification: you'd take Clark over Wilson right now? Are you aware that Wilson just set a league record with her 20th straight 20+ pt game? Are you aware Clark didn't even make the Olympic team?

I would take Clark over Wilson if she was playing on a team like Wilsons that would set a decent pick for her or she would not get slapped pushed or shoved/knocked down on a inbounds play like Wilson has not been played that way.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Disrespectful to whom?..............

And man this new apologist look for you.

Disrespectful to athletes and coaches that devote their lives to their craft so it can be consumed by fans to satisfy their entertainment needs, and often in a selfish way.

Many fans barely even understand a certain sport, yet feel the need to rip athletes and call for coaches jobs. And pretty much none of them have any inside info that's pertinent to a lot of the decisions that are made on a playing field.

For many, it's all about what can the athletes do for the fans. And "what have you done for me lately"?

Take the Iowa vs Purdue football game a few years ago. Iowa had just gotten its fanbase to #2 in the nation. Something that comes around every few decades and something to allow people to actually feel proud to be an Iowan. And barely into the 4th quarter fans started flooding out of Kinnick. There was plenty of time to mount a comeback. And even if there wasn't, if there was ever a time to stand behind your team and continue to support and give them energy, it was then. I will never forget how disgusting it was to see those fans flooding out.

There were literally people on this board that were claiming they wouldn't watch Iowa football this season if Hill were the QB. After Iowa had just won 10 games the previous season. Just complete selfishness. I'm embarrassed that those people call themselves Hawkeye fans.

Just yesterday there was a poster on here talking about how he gave up his season tickets to San Diego St. basketball because he couldn't stand their low scoring games. This is a program that just made the NCAA championship game two seasons ago. And out of the Mountain West conference mind you. Maybe he's a Hawkeye fan at heart. But that's someone who clearly valued his own entertainment over winning.

This stuff is completely offensive to athletes and coaches that have devoted their lives to their craft and to winning.

Annual surveys of high school coaches always show that the least favorite part of their job is dealing with parents and the community. College and pro sports aren't much different. Stupid and disrespectful fans make coaches and athletes lives harder. And amazingly enough, they're usually doing it to the team that they root for. But clearly this isn't something that out of line fans would be willing to take into consideration

 

[AWS1022]

And now it's become CC's problem, which is what I warned of all along.

It's a label that's recklessly been anointed by many; and we now get to see the backlash for that. You've said yourself that most people were calling CC the college GOAT, without making that distinction. You also are aware that people have called CC the GOAT, when really they just mean she's the best they've seen.

So clearly the term was overused. And now CC has to deal with a bunch of pissed off and motivated opponents. This was very easy to see coming.

So for clarification: you'd take Clark over Wilson right now? Are you aware that Wilson just set a league record with her 20th straight 20+ pt game? Are you aware Clark didn't even make the Olympic team?

Depends on what I was looking for. Wilson is a great scorer, no doubt, but Clark has better all around skills and Clark is at the beginning or her rookie season. And Clark should have made the Olympics. I guess you would take Taurasi over Clark right now seeing as how Taurasi made the Olympic team.