Tankless water heater, yay or nay

[hawkbirch]

We found a house we really like and it has a tankless water heater which we know nothing about. If you have one, do you like it?

The house also has a salt free water conditioner. I've never heard of such a thing and I'm pissed because I didn't know not carrying 200 pounds of solar salt was an option.

 

[theiacowtipper]

We found a house we really like and it has a tankless water heater which we know nothing about. If you have one, do you like it?

The house also has a salt free water conditioner. I've never heard of such a thing and I'm pissed because I didn't know not carrying 200 pounds of solar salt was an option.

Can't answer you 2nd question but as to your first, how old is the system? The older ones won't heat water fast enough. If you look at the house again, try turning on three faucets all the way hot. If the water stays hot, you'll be fine. If not, you might have troubles.

 

[Rudolph]

I have a friend who went tankless, so far so good, she likes it.

 

[lucas80]

My plumber buddy swears by them. Says they've gotten much better. When we remodel our basement we will get one installed.

 

[hawkifann]

We're tankless and love it, but ours is new.

 

[Herkmeister]

We're tankless and love it, but ours is new.

Is your power bill lower?

 

[hawkifann]

Is your power bill lower?

Hard to compare. We added as part of a major renovation. Added a few hundred square feet to an old house, upgraded insulation, replaced old windows and changed the water heater. We're definitely more efficient overall, but hard to say what's due to what. I do know we have 5 people in the house and even when we have guests, we don't run out of hot water.

 

[bhawk24bob]

I wouldn't install one for the upfront cost, but I'd be fine buying a house with one installed. Your inspector should be able to give you the details on whether that particular unit can do what you need it to do

 

[SalAunese]

What if the power goes out?

 

[hawkifann]

What if the power goes out?

Then there's no hot water?

 

[Hawkeyenuts66]

What if the power goes out?

Then the backup generator kicks in.

 

[markfromj]

Mine doesn't appreciate me. And I'm Eva Gabor!

 

[Joes Place]

We found a house we really like and it has a tankless water heater which we know nothing about. If you have one, do you like it?

The house also has a salt free water conditioner. I've never heard of such a thing and I'm pissed because I didn't know not carrying 200 pounds of solar salt was an option.

Get rid of the 'salt free water conditioner' if it is intended to be a 'salt free water softener'. Those have zero value and all the marketing claims cannot be verified. I'd presume hard water would jack up the valves in a tankless water heater just like they mess up a regular water heater. If salt-free softeners "work", I have yet to see objective data which shows it.

Tankless heaters are generally fine; main drawback is they use lots of energy draw when warming water, so if the power ever goes out, you're getting a cold shower. W/ regular water heaters, the tank stays warm for a half day or so before you notice.

I don't have any experience directly with tankless to estimate their lifespans; tanked heaters will last 10 years or so, longer if you don't have hard water or use a 'regular' water softener.

If the water conditioner is simply a filter system (not addressing hard water) that's different, but a waste for whole house.

 

[Joes Place]

Main advantage to 'tankless' is the ability to put a unit at each 'point of use' for instant hot water. No 'running the faucet' waiting for the hot water to show up.

A 'central' tankless is really no different than a tanked heater, just 3x or more the cost and no hot water if the power goes out. Plus, you can get the 'cold water sandwich' with older models.

 

[stout1]

We bought a tankless due to space limitations in our remodel. We simply didn't have room in our utility room/mudroom/laundry for a tank. It has worked well for us and I like it very much. I have 3 boys and all 3 can shower at once without issue. With that said, I would consider the main unit with satellite units for small demand (washing hands, rinse a dish, etc.) since it does take about a minute to get hot water at the sinks.

The power going out wasn't a huge issue for us since we are on a well with a pump and when the power goes out we don't have any water at all.

 

[hawkbirch]

Get rid of the 'salt free water conditioner' if it is intended to be a 'salt free water softener'. Those have zero value and all the marketing claims cannot be verified. I'd presume hard water would jack up the valves in a tankless water heater just like they mess up a regular water heater. If salt-free softeners "work", I have yet to see objective data which shows it.

Tankless heaters are generally fine; main drawback is they use lots of energy draw when warming water, so if the power ever goes out, you're getting a cold shower. W/ regular water heaters, the tank stays warm for a half day or so before you notice.

I don't have any experience directly with tankless to estimate their lifespans; tanked heaters will last 10 years or so, longer if you don't have hard water or use a 'regular' water softener.

If the water conditioner is simply a filter system (not addressing hard water) that's different, but a waste for whole house.

It's in West Des Moines which has horribly hard water. A water softener is a necessity and they last half as long as expected due to all the lime. I've never heard of a salt free softener so I'm suspicious. The home inspector would be able to address, right?

 

[Joes Place]

We bought a tankless due to space limitations in our remodel. We simply didn't have room in our utility room/mudroom/laundry for a tank. It has worked well for us and I like it very much. I have 3 boys and all 3 can shower at once without issue. With that said, I would consider the main unit with satellite units for small demand (washing hands, rinse a dish, etc.) since it does take about a minute to get hot water at the sinks.

The power going out wasn't a huge issue for us since we are on a well with a pump and when the power goes out we don't have any water at all.

+1
Space limitations are a major advantage of tankless systems; whether you have the space or not, you can 'recoup' several square feet of space in a finished basement using one. And, I think they do have natural gas models, which may not require electricity to operate (or can run on low power battery backup if power goes out).

FWIW, you CAN get non-tankless point-of-use systems for a lot less $$ than tankless satellite systems - they will take up more space though. Under-counter stuff. Tankless systems are designed to fit in spaces between studs in your wall and thus can be 'invisible' at point-of-use.

www.amazon.com/Tronic-2-5-Gallon-Electric-Mini-Tank-Heater/dp/B0148O658Y

 

[stout1]

And, I think they do have natural gas models, which may not require electricity to operate (or can run on low power battery backup if power goes out).

Mine is propane converted from natural gas. I would never buy an electric tankless water heater.

Even on propane, if I don't have power, my well pump isn't running so I'm not getting any water, much less hot water.

 

[Joes Place]

It's in West Des Moines which has horribly hard water. A water softener is a necessity and they last half as long as expected due to all the lime. I've never heard of a salt free softener so I'm suspicious. The home inspector would be able to address, right?

Home inspector probably would know. You can Google 'salt free water softener' for some good writeups, too. Most of the claims are rather dubious (e.g. "it puts the minerals into a non-soluble state that you can't measure with standard methods"). Hey, if you measure your water as 'hard' AFTER you've installed a 'salt-free softener', your water is still hard, people. The pipes don't care what you 'call it' or your marketing claims.

That's how insidious marketing campaigns work - they CLAIM this fancy salt-free softener is 'just as good'; you don't find out your pipes and water heater are all jacked up for another 5-10 years, long after they've moved on to 'reform the company' with a new name...

 

[Joes Place]

Mine is propane converted from natural gas. I would never buy an electric tankless water heater.

Even on propane, if I don't have power, my well pump isn't running so I'm not getting any water, much less hot water.

Yeah...if you have intermittent power, then a natural gas 'main tankless system' is the way to go; not any different than a natural gas tanked heater. You wouldn't want to have to pipe natural gas all over the house for satellite systems to rooms you don't already have piping, though - if you have gas appliances like stove, dryer, etc, then it would be less cost to put in gas tankless satellites. But costs would go way way up if you have to run natural gas lines to rooms that don't already have them.

And FWIW, running power lines isn't cheap, either, because most tankless electrics require 40-50 amps of power and need dedicated lines to every place you want to put one. So, you end up with $500-$1k or more in rewiring the house to put in satellite tankless - not as big a deal w/ an unfinished basement where you can easily route wires. But still more $$.

 

[On Iowa]

Never, ever get an electric tankless. Your home electrical service won't be able to handle it. The gas units are quite good now. They used to suffer from low flow issues, so if you trickle hot water it won't be enough flow to turn on the heater. I have mine running fine and have had no issues, even with multiple outlets running at the same time. If it's an older one, be a bit wary. They have some trouble with low flow scenarios.

 

[hawkbirch]

Never, ever get an electric tankless. Your home electrical service won't be able to handle it. The gas units are quite good now. They used to suffer from low flow issues, so if you trickle hot water it won't be enough flow to turn on the heater. I have mine running fine and have had no issues, even with multiple outlets running at the same time. If it's an older one, be a bit wary. They have some trouble with low flow scenarios.

It's already installed at the house we are considering buying. It's a Rinnai RL75.

It looks like this:

The picture I took was of the bottom part and not the hookups. The website says "Rinnai RL75i is an indoor tankless water heater that is designed to use both natural and propane gas with the concentric vent-type venting system"

 

[Joes Place]

It's already installed at the house we are considering buying. It's a Rinnai RL75.

It looks like this:

The picture I took was of the bottom part and not the hookups. The website says "Rinnai RL75i is an indoor tankless water heater that is designed to use both natural and propane gas with the concentric vent-type venting system"

Get a battery backup for it if you have any incidences of power interrupts and you should be fine. Gas heating requires minimal power to operate the controls and valves. This one apparently can run the system for a full week if power goes out.

www.amazon.com/Battery-Backup-Tankless-Water-Heaters/dp/B00VQHUKTM

Rinnai may actually have a direct low-voltage system to do the same (controls probably run on 20-24V, so buying a full 120V sine wave system is a bit 'backwards' if all you need to do is keep the control circuits running). You could also ask home inspector if he is aware of options for that model.

If power interrupts aren't really a problem, then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[hawkbirch]

This is the water conditioner:

One website says it will not work above 10gpg and West Des Moines averages 9gpg. It also says it only delays the effects of hard water but does not eliminate hard water. Eek, not good.

 

[hawkbirch]

Get a battery backup for it if you have any incidences of power interrupts and you should be fine. Gas heating requires minimal power to operate the controls and valves. This one apparently can run the system for a full week if power goes out.

www.amazon.com/Battery-Backup-Tankless-Water-Heaters/dp/B00VQHUKTM

Rinnai may actually have a direct low-voltage system to do the same (controls probably run on 20-24V, so buying a full 120V sine wave system is a bit 'backwards' if all you need to do is keep the control circuits running). You could also ask home inspector if he is aware of options for that model.

If power interrupts aren't really a problem, then I wouldn't worry about it.

thanks for the battery backup suggestion. I'll look to see if they have one and ask the sellers for one if they don't. If they say no, we'll do it ourselves.

 

[Joes Place]

This is the water conditioner:

One website says it will not work above 10gpg and West Des Moines averages 9gpg. It also says it only delays the effects of hard water but does not eliminate hard water. Eek, not good.

Yeah...not good.
They do things like put magnets around the pipes, as if it really does anything.

"Delays" is a common marketing hedgeword, so that when your pipes or water heater rots out, they can claim their product "saved you a year or two".

Get a real water softener (high efficiency ones use less salt from what I understand).
Beware of ANY product that cannot cite a standard that it complies with for 'softening' water. Or has actual test data which demonstrates it works.

These types of products are virtual gold mines for con artists: sell someone something that you claim "works", but they won't find out it didn't work for many many years, long after you've run off with their money.

 

[TJ8869]

I've always believed the scientific approach is the best approach to solving this sort of dilemma.

The best solution is for Birch to conduct some experiments on the effects of showering in hot water versus showering in cold water and report back to us with her findings so we can formulate a plan.

 

[stout1]

thanks for the battery backup suggestion. I'll look to see if they have one and ask the sellers for one if they don't. If they say no, we'll do it ourselves.

Battery backup will only work if you are on city water (for lack of a better description) and not on a well where you are pumping water to great pressure.

 

[Joes Place]

thanks for the battery backup suggestion. I'll look to see if they have one and ask the sellers for one if they don't. If they say no, we'll do it ourselves.

Rinnai's site indicates they DO NOT make battery backups, but recommend 3rd party options. They imply their systems use <3 amps of current (manual will have this spec - either an amp-rating or watts rating) , which means a ~350W equivalent battery backup (UPS) should work fine. You basically plug the UPS into the outlet, and plug the Rinnai into that.

Probably don't really need anything that will run any longer than a day or a few days at most, but really depends on whether you're in a decent sized city with reliable power, or in a small town or in the country where an ice storm could take power out for several days worst case.

 

[Joes Place]

Battery backup will only work if you are on city water (for lack of a better description) and not on a well where you are pumping water to great pressure.

Yep...you'd need a serious 'battery backup' to pump water, too. Certainly possible, but it'd need to deliver quite a lot of power - a la the Tesla Power Wall type thing.

 

[dandh]

We found a house we really like and it has a tankless water heater which we know nothing about. If you have one, do you like it?

The house also has a salt free water conditioner. I've never heard of such a thing and I'm pissed because I didn't know not carrying 200 pounds of solar salt was an option.

Your husband a lucky guy, because not carrying it is definitely an option for my wife.

 

[hawkbirch]

Rinnai's site indicates they DO NOT make battery backups, but recommend 3rd party options. They imply their systems use <3 amps of current (manual will have this spec - either an amp-rating or watts rating) , which means a ~350W equivalent battery backup (UPS) should work fine. You basically plug the UPS into the outlet, and plug the Rinnai into that.

Probably don't really need anything that will run any longer than a day or a few days at most, but really depends on whether you're in a decent sized city with reliable power, or in a small town or in the country where an ice storm could take power out for several days worst case.

It's in West Des Moines so city water. All the power lines are underground so most power outages are hours at the longest.