Tell me your thoughts on this statement:

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

It's not an R vs D issue so those that want to make it such can find the next thread. I read this though and admittedly think there is some validity to it



"They lied to us about Vietnam, they lied to us about why we were in wars in the middle east, what makes you think we are getting the truth about ukraine?"


Personally, it has some validity. Now **** Russia and frankly we.may not really ever want to know how the sausage of war is made but I do think this statement I found on Twitter will create some discussion.


What thinks you?

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

It's not an R vs D issue so those that want to make it such can find the next thread. I read this though and admittedly think there is some validity to it



"They lied to us about Vietnam, they lied to us about why we were in wars in the middle east, what makes you think we are getting the truth about ukraine?"


Personally, it has some validity. Now **** Russia and frankly we.may not really ever want to know how the sausage of war is made but I do think this statement I found on Twitter will create some discussion.


What thinks you?

Yes.

I have been consistently against funding wars in Ukraine and Israel.

Stop the spread of communism, stop global terrorism before it reaches our shores, fight Putin there or over here.

Same shit. Different label.

 

[Bonerfarts]

It's not an R vs D issue so those that want to make it such can find the next thread. I read this though and admittedly think there is some validity to it



"They lied to us about Vietnam, they lied to us about why we were in wars in the middle east, what makes you think we are getting the truth about ukraine?"


Personally, it has some validity. Now **** Russia and frankly we.may not really ever want to know how the sausage of war is made but I do think this statement I found on Twitter will create some discussion.


What thinks you?

Lies? Probably. Those other examples we sent young American men to die in foreign countries. Even if Ukraine cannot win, I'm all for bleeding Russia dry and making their decision to invade become as costly as possible. This will help change the calculus on Russia (or China) from invading another country again.

 

[NoleinATL]

I am sure we are being lied to, but as long as we are not putting our military guys/gals in harm's way, the Ukraine lie would not be in the same stratosphere as Vietnam or Iraq.

 

[Rifler]

Lies generally begin in a small way...

 

[Finance85]

Lies? Probably. Those other examples we sent young American men to die in foreign countries. Even if Ukraine cannot win, I'm all for bleeding Russia dry and making their decision to invade become as costly as possible. This will help change the calculus on Russia (or China) from invading another country again.

Has that worked before? Delay, perhaps. Stop? Nope.

 

[ButtersHawk]

This is how I feel about war/proxy wars......
Would you find it reasonable or justified for the government to draft your child and put them in said war/proxy war?

If the answer is no then we have zero reason to fund or fight in it.

 

[tumorboy]

All wars are economic. Who has control or influence in various resources or trade routes. Everything else is spin. No terrorism isn’t separate. Because the source of terrorism still comes from the fear of loss of economic power.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

All wars are economic. Who has control or influence in various resources or trade routes. Everything else is spin. No terrorism isn’t separate. Because the source of terrorism still comes from the fear of loss of economic power.

I'm going to butcher the quote but "Not once has the bad guy won the war".


The "winner" somehow, is always the good guy and what should have happened.

As time goes on I think more and more about that.

 

[Rifler]

History is written by the victors,... Churchill

 

[torbee]

We aren't "in" Ukraine, so it's a silly analogy.

We are, however, degrading the military and economic power of one of our most intense global rivals without risking any American lives.

How you can't see that as a "win" by any metric baffles me.

 

[torbee]

I'm going to butcher the quote but "Not once has the bad guy won the war".

Might want to bone up on the Spanish Civil War.

Or Vietnam, for that matter.

Or the military victory of the Khmer Rouge.

Lots and lots and lots of "bad guy" regimes have won wars.

 

[Rifler]

Russia is far from being our most intense global rival anymore...

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

We aren't "in" Ukraine, so it's a silly analogy.

We are, however, degrading the military and economic power of one of our most intense global rivals without risking any American lives.

How you can't see that as a "win" by any metric baffles me.

That wasn't the question Torbs.



I think we can all agree it's much easier to "sell bonds" if news on the home front is "good", the question I guess is, how much are we willing to be ok with knowing "making sausage is ugly"?

 

[LuciousBDragon]

It's not an R vs D issue so those that want to make it such can find the next thread. I read this though and admittedly think there is some validity to it



"They lied to us about Vietnam, they lied to us about why we were in wars in the middle east, what makes you think we are getting the truth about ukraine?"


Personally, it has some validity. Now **** Russia and frankly we.may not really ever want to know how the sausage of war is made but I do think this statement I found on Twitter will create some discussion.


What thinks you?

I’d venture that just about every war in mankind’s history was predicated on some lying. I don’t think we are unique and do not think it’s wise to start adjudicating various lies and determining which were worse than the others.

To me, the bigger issue is the growing failure by our leaders over the last 80 years to effectively communicate America’s role in the world order. As a result, we have allowed ourselves to become split apart and no longer have a cohesive worldview as Americans of the role of America in the world. This skews our view of the results.

We the people have failed to hold our elected leaders accountable for the results of their actions. War is a business. Our leaders should present and communicate the plan, execute the plan, & review the results. The people should then be the judge of the results to see if they were worthwhile and align to our mission. But when we can’t agree what our role is in the first place, we are doomed from the start.

 

[goldmom]

So you might say we’re all living in The Truman Show - and most of us don’t know it? Yep.

There are things that go on every single day in the world that involve our country that we don’t know about and it’s been that way since WWII as regards the CIA and our several “agencies”.
Many Americans believe that we are loved and revered around the world and sadly that ain’t how it is.

 

[torbee]

Russia is far from being our most intense global rival anymore...

Second to China but with a FAR worse history of being an aggressive, land-grabbing danger.

Chinese prefer to win economically and play the long game. Russia prefers brute force.

 

[goldmom]

Second to China but with a FAR worse history of being an aggressive, land-grabbing danger.

Chinese prefer to win economically and play the long game. Russia prefers brute force.

💯 correct.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Might want to bone up on the Spanish Civil War.

Or Vietnam, for that matter.

Or the military victory of the Khmer Rouge.

Lots and lots and lots of "bad guy" regimes have won wars.

Who won Vietnam? Who are we giving credit to on that one, seems like victory of that goes to where the talking point is needed.

 

[B1GDeal]

Russia is far from being our most intense global rival anymore...

And the conflict in Ukraine exposed that truth.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

And the conflict in Ukraine exposed that truth.

I'll 💯 agree with that.

 

[torbee]

Who won Vietnam? Who are we giving credit to on that one, seems like victory of that goes to where the talking point is needed.

The Communists

 

[B1GDeal]

Second to China but with a FAR worse history of being an aggressive, land-grabbing danger.

Chinese prefer to win economically and play the long game. Russia prefers brute force.

That’s because they lack the economic strength and go back to the brutal ways that they used successfully in the past.

 

[OrlandNole]

I don't agree or disagree, but what do you think we're being lied to with respect to Ukraine?

For example, we were lied to about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

I don't agree or disagree, but what do you think we're being lied to with respect to Ukraine?

For example, we were lied to about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Great question.


Just putting out an answer for the sake of conversation, I think you would look at deaths and how many things have actually been destroyed. We know at one point there was talks Russia would be using prisoners. Idk.

 

[Stoopsbrother]

ukraine is a giant money laundering operation.

 

[fsu1jreed]

So Putin didn't really invade?

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

As I've mentioned before, I have a lot of experience in Ukraine. I know we are not being told the truth about Ukraine and I can't bring it up without being attacked, by called a Russian Bot, pro Putin, or MAGA. None of that is true.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

So Putin didn't really invade?

Maybe dial that one back just a little.

 

[jneffer]

It's not an R vs D issue so those that want to make it such can find the next thread. I read this though and admittedly think there is some validity to it



"They lied to us about Vietnam, they lied to us about why we were in wars in the middle east, what makes you think we are getting the truth about ukraine?"


Personally, it has some validity. Now **** Russia and frankly we.may not really ever want to know how the sausage of war is made but I do think this statement I found on Twitter will create some discussion.


What thinks you?

what specifically do you think they are lying about?

you cited 2 "wars" in which our troops moved to occupy/invade foreign countries...that's not the case in ukraine. are you saying russia isn't actually invading or attacking ukraine?

also, would you throw that other war/military action into the "why do you think they aren't lying to us about it" category?

 

[Rifler]

ukraine is a giant money laundering operation.

And Russia is a giant gas station with a back lot full of rusting nuclear weapons...

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

This is how I feel about war/proxy wars......
Would you find it reasonable or justified for the government to draft your child and put them in said war/proxy war?

If the answer is no then we have zero reason to fund or fight in it.

Well then we should burn down such a government that would do such a thing as enable a military draft......................

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

As I've mentioned before, I have a lot of experience in Ukraine. I know we are not being told the truth about Ukraine and I can't bring it up without being attacked, by called a Russian Bot, pro Putin, or MAGA. None of that is true.

Eh. Bring it up anyways.

Given the general age of posters on this board, they are very much all bark and fake teeth.........

 

[tumorboy]

I'm going to butcher the quote but "Not once has the bad guy won the war".


The "winner" somehow, is always the good guy and what should have happened.

As time goes on I think more and more about that.

Well he’s the good guy until he becomes the bad guy. Caesar, Hussein, Stalin, Mao, Taliban, etc etc. or the bad guy until he becomes the good guy. Sitten Bull, Robert E Lee, Andrew Carnegie.

 

[tumorboy]

As I've mentioned before, I have a lot of experience in Ukraine. I know we are not being told the truth about Ukraine and I can't bring it up without being attacked, by called a Russian Bot, pro Putin, or MAGA. None of that is true.

Every thing has multiple sides to the story. But, unfortunately Russia has a history of expansion and contraction. Imperialistic invasions are who they are. It has to be contained. Or they will move onto the next targets.
There were a lot of citizens in the North who didn’t give two bits. If slavery was still legal after the Civil War either. Just as I’m sure many Ukrainians would rather join Russia

 

[Bank of Hawk]

I think it’s a money thing first and foremost. One way for the USA to promote the continuation of the dollar as the world currency is to send money to countries outside our borders. One way to do that is through conflicts and wars. Another money angle is without these wars, the sector that makes military equipment will shrink or go bankrupt, can’t have that if you’re a politician.

Also, presidents run on this stuff, they are the commander, yet they often have very little military experience, but the ranking military people advising them have a vested interest of war or conflict and advise their commander, president, whose interest is inherently political. So if a case can be made to the President that this certain action, explained this certain way, with this certain outcome… will look good politically, then it will happen, even if truth is twisted.

 

[ButtersHawk]

Well then we should burn down such a government that would do such a thing as enable a military draft......................

Not sure what you are getting at. My point is if the government told my two sons that they need to attend basic training because they are being sent to Ukraine i'd be furious.

I don't care enough about ethnically Russian Donbas region enough to send my kids or money there.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Not sure what you are getting at. My point is if the government told my two sons that they need to attend basic training because they are being sent to Ukraine i'd be furious.

I don't care enough about ethnically Russian Donbas region enough to send my kids or money there.

And what if it was 1968, and not 2024?

I'm sure you'd still be furious, but...........

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

I think it’s a money thing first and foremost. One way for the USA to promote the continuation of the dollar as the world currency is to send money to countries outside our borders. One way to do that is through conflicts and wars. Another money angle is without these wars, the sector that makes military equipment will shrink or go bankrupt, can’t have that if you’re a politician.

Also, presidents run on this stuff, they are the commander, yet they often have very little military experience, but the ranking military people advising them have a vested interest of war or conflict and advise their commander, president, whose interest is inherently political. So if a case can be made to the President that this certain action, explained this certain way, with this certain outcome… will look good politically, then it will happen, even if truth is twisted.

Shout out for bringing the idea of the dollar dependency into this.


Had not thought of that.
+1 bruv.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

As I've mentioned before, I have a lot of experience in Ukraine. I know we are not being told the truth about Ukraine and I can't bring it up without being attacked, by called a Russian Bot, pro Putin, or MAGA. None of that is true.

Well I'm really good at telling someone to **** themselves if I need to so should anyone interject allow my natural abilities to arise.


Lay it on me.