People forget how big of an economic barrier the full Soviet Union was to the World Economy in its prime as well. Any return to that though a Russian/China alliance would best be avoided.
Tell me your thoughts on this statement:
- Thread starter Whiskeydeltadeltatango
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How much of it was really lies? I mean I guess the Bush admin tried to imply that Hussein was trying to build a nuke. But most of the facts were known by the public but our military interventions there were wildly supported by an enthusiastic public. At least at first.
Quite frankly the "They lied to us about" crowd needs to stand up and take some responsibility for their own choices to support those wars.
And as others pointed out we are not intervening in Ukraine, we are simply providing weapons.
And money... and the internet to conduct warfare in 2024..... and fuel.....
Ok short of bodies pulling the trigger we are sure as shir "intervening" in Ukraine.
They wouldn't have last 6 months without us. To say we have intervened diminishes that.
K and we are a democracy at least for now trying to help a fellow democracy from an authoritarian attacker.
To me the most objectionable part of our past foreign ventures is the expending of American lives.
Fair enough but it's also not the same intervention as Vietnam or Iraq because we are not risking or expending American lives to do it.
To me this is more comparable to Lend Lease. And yes we were pulled into that war eventually but not because of Lend lease. We were pulled in because we decided to stop selling oil to Japan and they thought they could bully us back into it.
Who won? Politicians. The international bankers. Arms manufacturers. Oil companies. Ad nauseam.
The same people that always win wars, that’s why they keep starting so many.
Vietnam? Yeah i would. WW2 and 01 Afghanistan we were attacked. I understand why we retaliated. Everything else has been unreasonable
I was here 2 years ago and up to probably 3 months ago.
Now though, with Russia holding firm and Ukraine unable to gain ground as the lines have stayed pretty much the same for 18+ months... I'm beginning to wonder if we haven't simply helped Russia shine a light on how poorly it's military was run and the inadequacy of its equipment, and now when it needs it against a more formidable for, Russia will have fixed itself?
They're gaining great learning (albeit at great cost) while actually gaining ground.
While I'm thrilled we don't have Americans there fighting, I'm now much more open to the idea of a ceasefire/settlement.
At least this response makes some sense and is a valid stance if you are supporting the current situation. I don't agree with it totally, but at least it is something.
This is where I have a problem. Ukraine has proven over and over again that they can't be trusted on any level and they aren't really a democracy anymore than Russia is.
Russia and Ukraine are basically the same country. Bad actors and groups trying to get rich running both. Now that I think about it, the US looks pretty similar.
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While it is probably time for Ukraine to cut its losses and live with the fact Russia has annexed terrirtory, the problem is you are likely just delaying another full-scale invasion down the road. Russia is unlikely to be "done" if Ukraine and the West capitulate now.
We need to give Ukraine more ammo to inflict more pain on Russia, officially absorb them into NATO and then and only then negotiate.
This should be required viewing for anyone wondering why we back Ukraine.
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I completely agree on the first part. Any concession without NATO protection is only inviting a Russian rebuild for later conflict.
I'd love to see Ukraine at least be able to destroy Russia's land bridge to crimea before settling. If they do that, and only lose the territories that we're trying to secede anyway, added to NATO protection that could be Ok. Even better would be if they could get crimea back.
No but I actually did interview people on the Maidan during protests. It was reallly fascinating. Got some great photos. I have been to some of the cities and villages you see on the news.
So, Putin's really a good guy, and all the folks in Bucha were just play-actors...
“They” is way too lazy from a critical thinking standpoint.
Of course “they” lied. “They” also told the truth.
This statement is too vague, and useless.
Of course “they” lied. “They” also told the truth.
This statement is too vague, and useless.
Your concerns with the methodology is noted.
Care you input any thoughts or opinions beyond that?
How? Ukraine changes leaders regularly. Russia doesn't.
Since 1991 when the USSR folded Ukraine has had 6 different presidents. Russia has had 3 and one of those guys was a political ally of Putin who served for only one term and then immediately gave the presidency back to Putin. (Their constitution at the time said the president could only serve 2 consecutive terms, but could run again after one term out of office.)
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They are being invaded.
The entire state of Hawaii was under martial law during world war 2.
It means that marshal law in the time of emergencies such as foreign attack does not mean that the country isn't a democracy.
A lot of typical freedoms tend to get changed during a foreign attack. The mark is what happens after the war is over.
They can claim all they want about how their government is different and a democracy. The proof is in the pudding. It is known as one of, if not the most corrupt country in all of Europe.
Here is an article from 2015 even
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine
This and countless other examples are why people don't feel good about giving them money.
The premise is we're rarely if ever told the truth about wars we're involved in, whether by proxy or not. Assuming this time is different is incredibly naive.
Corruption doesn't mean not a democracy. It means corruption.
You can have dictatorships with very little corruption, dictatorships with a lot of corruption and democracies with a lot or very little corruption.
And Zelenski had been working on the problem and reducing it before the war.
The public has all or most of the relevant information and always had.
We just have a lot of citizens who want to pass the buck to excuse the reason they supported foreign wars.
There was one lie about Iraq about the implication of nukes. Doesn't matter, most of the people at the time would have supported the war anyways. They didn't lie to us about Afganistan, didn't lie to us about Vietnam, didn't lie about Korea or World War 2. The public knew the reasons going in but wildly supported it because "'Merica".
Now those same people who never showed any skepticism about any war after WW2 are suddenly skeptical about this war because we are providing weapons to a country that is fighting their cult leader's best friend.
They have broadcasted again and again who's side they are on. Tucker is out in Russia praising it, doing bits on Russian state TV. He even said he wanted Russia to win. The rank and file wearing shirts saying they would rather be a Russian than a Dem. Their cult leader talking about great and smart Putin is and excusing him every time he murders a political opponent.
This isn't about not wanting foreign wars. This is about wanting Russia to win and doing your best to help them out.
That's a very convenient loop hole.
If someone were a real piece of shit, they could manufacture something to initiate that loop hole undercover.
Then they were never really freedoms, were they?
Were you cool with imprisoning American citizens during WWII because of the shape of their eyes?
i don't disagree, but (and i asked this yesterday) what exactly are we being lied to about regarding ukraine?
even if corruption is terrible in ukraine (and i guess the subject of these lies) ... how does that change the fact that russia invaded and has been attacking a sovereign neighboring country for over 2 years?
also...if you think ukraine corruption is bad...take a look at russia. not exactly the epitome of good governance
Where the money is going, what the real win/loss numbers are, what areas are held ect. Basic accounting.
Things like this:
Russian jamming leaves some high-tech U.S. weapons ineffective in Ukraine
Many U.S.-made satellite-guided ammunitions in Ukraine have failed to withstand Russian jamming technology, prompting Kyiv to stop using certain types of Western-provided armaments after effectiveness rates plummeted, according to senior Ukrainian military officials and confidential internal...
iowa.forums.rivals.com
Just because 4'9 is taller than 4'8 doesn't mean 4'9 is tall. You are comparing two countries that where top of the charts on corruption before the war started.
No, but I am cool with putting Hawaii under marshal law.
That sometimes happens, but this crisis wasn't manufactured by Ukraine.
