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Tell me your thoughts on this statement:

It's not an R vs D issue so those that want to make it such can find the next thread. I read this though and admittedly think there is some validity to it



"They lied to us about Vietnam, they lied to us about why we were in wars in the middle east, what makes you think we are getting the truth about ukraine?"


Personally, it has some validity. Now **** Russia and frankly we.may not really ever want to know how the sausage of war is made but I do think this statement I found on Twitter will create some discussion.


What thinks you?

How much of it was really lies? I mean I guess the Bush admin tried to imply that Hussein was trying to build a nuke. But most of the facts were known by the public but our military interventions there were wildly supported by an enthusiastic public. At least at first.

Quite frankly the "They lied to us about" crowd needs to stand up and take some responsibility for their own choices to support those wars.

And as others pointed out we are not intervening in Ukraine, we are simply providing weapons.
 
How much of it was really lies? I mean I guess the Bush admin tried to imply that Hussein was trying to build a nuke. But most of the facts were known by the public but our military interventions there were wildly supported by an enthusiastic public. At least at first.

And as others pointed out we are not intervening in Ukraine, we are simply providing weapons.
And money... and the internet to conduct warfare in 2024..... and fuel.....


Ok short of bodies pulling the trigger we are sure as shir "intervening" in Ukraine.


They wouldn't have last 6 months without us. To say we have intervened diminishes that.
 
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And money... and the internet to conduct warfare in 2024..... and fuel.....


Ok short of bodies pulling the trigger we are sure as shir "intervening" in Ukraine.


They wouldn't have last 6 months without us. To say we have intervened diminishes that.

K and we are a democracy at least for now trying to help a fellow democracy from an authoritarian attacker.

To me the most objectionable part of our past foreign ventures is the expending of American lives.
 
That's fine but to say we have not intervened was my point of contention.

Fair enough but it's also not the same intervention as Vietnam or Iraq because we are not risking or expending American lives to do it.

To me this is more comparable to Lend Lease. And yes we were pulled into that war eventually but not because of Lend lease. We were pulled in because we decided to stop selling oil to Japan and they thought they could bully us back into it.
 
K and we are a democracy at least for now trying to help a fellow democracy from an authoritarian attacker.

To me the most objectionable part of our past foreign ventures is the expending of American lives.
Ukraine is under martial law. The ‘democracy’ you speak of doesn’t exist.
 
We aren't "in" Ukraine, so it's a silly analogy.

We are, however, degrading the military and economic power of one of our most intense global rivals without risking any American lives.

How you can't see that as a "win" by any metric baffles me.
I was here 2 years ago and up to probably 3 months ago.

Now though, with Russia holding firm and Ukraine unable to gain ground as the lines have stayed pretty much the same for 18+ months... I'm beginning to wonder if we haven't simply helped Russia shine a light on how poorly it's military was run and the inadequacy of its equipment, and now when it needs it against a more formidable for, Russia will have fixed itself?

They're gaining great learning (albeit at great cost) while actually gaining ground.

While I'm thrilled we don't have Americans there fighting, I'm now much more open to the idea of a ceasefire/settlement.
 
Lies? Probably. Those other examples we sent young American men to die in foreign countries. Even if Ukraine cannot win, I'm all for bleeding Russia dry and making their decision to invade become as costly as possible. This will help change the calculus on Russia (or China) from invading another country again.
At least this response makes some sense and is a valid stance if you are supporting the current situation. I don't agree with it totally, but at least it is something.
 
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K and we are a democracy at least for now trying to help a fellow democracy from an authoritarian attacker.

To me the most objectionable part of our past foreign ventures is the expending of American lives.
This is where I have a problem. Ukraine has proven over and over again that they can't be trusted on any level and they aren't really a democracy anymore than Russia is.

Russia and Ukraine are basically the same country. Bad actors and groups trying to get rich running both. Now that I think about it, the US looks pretty similar.
 
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I was here 2 years ago and up to probably 3 months ago.

Now though, with Russia holding firm and Ukraine unable to gain ground as the lines have stayed pretty much the same for 18+ months... I'm beginning to wonder if we haven't simply helped Russia shine a light on how poorly it's military was run and the inadequacy of its equipment, and now when it needs it against a more formidable for, Russia will have fixed itself?

They're gaining great learning (albeit at great cost) while actually gaining ground.

While I'm thrilled we don't have Americans there fighting, I'm now much more open to the idea of a ceasefire/settlement.
While it is probably time for Ukraine to cut its losses and live with the fact Russia has annexed terrirtory, the problem is you are likely just delaying another full-scale invasion down the road. Russia is unlikely to be "done" if Ukraine and the West capitulate now.

We need to give Ukraine more ammo to inflict more pain on Russia, officially absorb them into NATO and then and only then negotiate.
 
While it is probably time for Ukraine to cut its losses and live with the fact Russia has annexed terrirtory, the problem is you are likely just delaying another full-scale invasion down the road. Russia is unlikely to be "done" if Ukraine and the West capitulate now.

We need to give Ukraine more ammo to inflict more pain on Russia, officially absorb them into NATO and then and only then negotiate.
I completely agree on the first part. Any concession without NATO protection is only inviting a Russian rebuild for later conflict.

I'd love to see Ukraine at least be able to destroy Russia's land bridge to crimea before settling. If they do that, and only lose the territories that we're trying to secede anyway, added to NATO protection that could be Ok. Even better would be if they could get crimea back.
 
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As I've mentioned before, I have a lot of experience in Ukraine. I know we are not being told the truth about Ukraine and I can't bring it up without being attacked, by called a Russian Bot, pro Putin, or MAGA. None of that is true.
Were you on russia's front line?
 
It's not an R vs D issue so those that want to make it such can find the next thread. I read this though and admittedly think there is some validity to it



"They lied to us about Vietnam, they lied to us about why we were in wars in the middle east, what makes you think we are getting the truth about ukraine?"


Personally, it has some validity. Now **** Russia and frankly we.may not really ever want to know how the sausage of war is made but I do think this statement I found on Twitter will create some discussion.


What thinks you?
Who is "they"?

Why are you trying to push more Putin propaganda here?
 
As I've mentioned before, I have a lot of experience in Ukraine. I know we are not being told the truth about Ukraine and I can't bring it up without being attacked, by called a Russian Bot, pro Putin, or MAGA. None of that is true.

So, Putin's really a good guy, and all the folks in Bucha were just play-actors...
 
“They” is way too lazy from a critical thinking standpoint.

Of course “they” lied. “They” also told the truth.

This statement is too vague, and useless.
Your concerns with the methodology is noted.



Care you input any thoughts or opinions beyond that?
 
This is where I have a problem. Ukraine has proven over and over again that they can't be trusted on any level and they aren't really a democracy anymore than Russia is.

Russia and Ukraine are basically the same country. Bad actors and groups trying to get rich running both. Now that I think about it, the US looks pretty similar.

How? Ukraine changes leaders regularly. Russia doesn't.

Since 1991 when the USSR folded Ukraine has had 6 different presidents. Russia has had 3 and one of those guys was a political ally of Putin who served for only one term and then immediately gave the presidency back to Putin. (Their constitution at the time said the president could only serve 2 consecutive terms, but could run again after one term out of office.)
 
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Cool. So two wrongs make a right, then?

It means that marshal law in the time of emergencies such as foreign attack does not mean that the country isn't a democracy.

A lot of typical freedoms tend to get changed during a foreign attack. The mark is what happens after the war is over.
 
How? Ukraine changes leaders regularly. Russia doesn't.

Since 1991 when the USSR folded Ukraine has had 6 different presidents. Russia has had 3 and one of those guys was a political ally of Putin who served for only one term and then immediately gave the presidency back to Putin. (Their constitution at the time said the president could only serve 2 consecutive terms, but could run again after one term out of office.)
They can claim all they want about how their government is different and a democracy. The proof is in the pudding. It is known as one of, if not the most corrupt country in all of Europe.

Here is an article from 2015 even
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine

This and countless other examples are why people don't feel good about giving them money.
 
We aren't "in" Ukraine, so it's a silly analogy.

We are, however, degrading the military and economic power of one of our most intense global rivals without risking any American lives.

How you can't see that as a "win" by any metric baffles me.
The premise is we're rarely if ever told the truth about wars we're involved in, whether by proxy or not. Assuming this time is different is incredibly naive.
 
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They can claim all they want about how their government is different and a democracy. The proof is in the pudding. It is known as one of, if not the most corrupt country in all of Europe.

Here is an article from 2015 even
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine

This and countless other examples are why people don't feel good about giving them money.

Corruption doesn't mean not a democracy. It means corruption.

You can have dictatorships with very little corruption, dictatorships with a lot of corruption and democracies with a lot or very little corruption.

And Zelenski had been working on the problem and reducing it before the war.
 
The premise is we're rarely if ever told the truth about wars we're involved in, whether by proxy or not. Assuming this time is different is incredibly naive.

The public has all or most of the relevant information and always had.

We just have a lot of citizens who want to pass the buck to excuse the reason they supported foreign wars.

There was one lie about Iraq about the implication of nukes. Doesn't matter, most of the people at the time would have supported the war anyways. They didn't lie to us about Afganistan, didn't lie to us about Vietnam, didn't lie about Korea or World War 2. The public knew the reasons going in but wildly supported it because "'Merica".

Now those same people who never showed any skepticism about any war after WW2 are suddenly skeptical about this war because we are providing weapons to a country that is fighting their cult leader's best friend.

They have broadcasted again and again who's side they are on. Tucker is out in Russia praising it, doing bits on Russian state TV. He even said he wanted Russia to win. The rank and file wearing shirts saying they would rather be a Russian than a Dem. Their cult leader talking about great and smart Putin is and excusing him every time he murders a political opponent.

This isn't about not wanting foreign wars. This is about wanting Russia to win and doing your best to help them out.
 
It means that marshal law in the time of emergencies such as foreign attack does not mean that the country isn't a democracy.

A lot of typical freedoms tend to get changed during a foreign attack. The mark is what happens after the war is over.
That's a very convenient loop hole.

If someone were a real piece of shit, they could manufacture something to initiate that loop hole undercover.
 
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It means that marshal law in the time of emergencies such as foreign attack does not mean that the country isn't a democracy.

A lot of typical freedoms tend to get changed during a foreign attack. The mark is what happens after the war is over.
Then they were never really freedoms, were they?

Were you cool with imprisoning American citizens during WWII because of the shape of their eyes?
 
The premise is we're rarely if ever told the truth about wars we're involved in, whether by proxy or not. Assuming this time is different is incredibly naive.
i don't disagree, but (and i asked this yesterday) what exactly are we being lied to about regarding ukraine?

even if corruption is terrible in ukraine (and i guess the subject of these lies) ... how does that change the fact that russia invaded and has been attacking a sovereign neighboring country for over 2 years?

also...if you think ukraine corruption is bad...take a look at russia. not exactly the epitome of good governance
 
i don't disagree, but (and i asked this yesterday) what exactly are we being lied to about regarding ukraine?

even if corruption is terrible in ukraine (and i guess the subject of these lies) ... how does that change the fact that russia invaded and has been attacking a sovereign neighboring country for over 2 years?

also...if you think ukraine corruption is bad...take a look at russia. not exactly the epitome of good governance
Where the money is going, what the real win/loss numbers are, what areas are held ect. Basic accounting.

Things like this:

Just because 4'9 is taller than 4'8 doesn't mean 4'9 is tall. You are comparing two countries that where top of the charts on corruption before the war started.
 
Then they were never really freedoms, were they?

Were you cool with imprisoning American citizens during WWII because of the shape of their eyes?

No, but I am cool with putting Hawaii under marshal law.

That's a very convenient loop hole.

If someone were a real piece of shit, they could manufacture something to initiate that loop hole undercover.

That sometimes happens, but this crisis wasn't manufactured by Ukraine.
 
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