The Fraud Known As "Higher Education"

[3 and Out on D]

Without reading through the crap posted about, the biggest fraud in "higher education" is found in for profit schools.

Yes, there are many majors that do not directly prepare you for a career and that could be debated but that is nothing compared to for profit schools.

You need art majors to be spouses to engineers,accountants, physicians, and other scientific types.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Funny. I was just speaking with a County Economic Developer and what he is telling me is that there are plenty of jobs available in much of our rural Iowa towns. Where the employers are having problems is that we have a lack of an educated work force. He told me this is an issue across the entire Midwest. From everything I have seen in my line of work I believe him. There is opportunity in Iowa and money to be made out there. Can't find a job, enroll in a 2 year program at the local votech, choose the right field and a whole world of opportunity will open up to you. You have a college degree, there is a job out there for you, you may have to relocate, but there are careers for the taking out there.

 

[txhawk I]

Big Education is as bad as Big Business. Please don't tell Lizzy Warren that people who spend big money for big education end up running those big businesses that she hates.

 

[mstp1992]

In this instance I do not need to support my hypothesis with hard core data...the horror stories are plentiful...and painfully real.

Then what you're stating is strictly your opinion supported only by anecdotal evidence.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

Then what you're stating is strictly your opinion supported only by anecdotal evidence.

Nope it is based on the countless people I have personally "interviewed" at Chili's, O'Charley's, Cracker Barrel, Red Lobster, Ruby Tuesdays, the schools I sub at, golf courses I have played and hotels I stay at...the findings are overwhelming.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

Well my tuition bill for four years at Iowa was probably 10 Grand, housing 16 grand. That was 26 G total. First job 23G and my little ole Pension pays me going forward as well. Tuition/housing is about 83% higher than it was when I finished. Are salaries 83% higher than when you finished? I don't think so.

I dont think its so much the cost education as opposed to the stagnation of wages.

My first job paid me 22k...when I retired last year my final salary from the Memphis schools was 63k...and I wasn't coaching anymore. Had I coached it would have been around 70k. Now I am not a math guy so you will need to tell me the % increase. Now as to teaching it seems to be a better deal than it once was...and it has nothing to do with starting salaries which in TN averages to 36k. There are people who have been displaced in the corporate world who now see teaching as a viable 2nd career especially those with math and science backgrounds. The allure of a pension, benefits, tenure etc. are making it a viable option. On top of that you have the private organizations such as the dreaded Teach For America(which I personally despise) are recruiting liberal arts grads at universities to teach for 2 years in mostly urban schools in which they are given a stipend to either pay off student loans or for tuition to obtain teaching credentials. This has created a severe problem in finding jobs for those who go the traditional route to teaching. At first I supported TFA due to its role for finding teachers to work in hard to place schools. Now I see them as nothing more than a corporate entity that hasn't shown any noticeable improvement or success rates over traditional teachers...despite their propaganda that says they are the "saviors" of public education.

 

[Run&Blade]

I would like to see the universities on the hook for a percentage of the loans the drive the kids to take.

I have a feeling the advising they get would be different and the admissions department might also change their philosophy.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Is the point of education employment? Why don't we fire all the history teachers and replace them with shop, IT and elocution classes? Of course college isn't for everyone, no one ever claimed it was. But college isn't a job training program either.

It is for those smart enough to go degrees that require skill in fields that actually are in demand.

 

[naturalmwa]

It is for those smart enough to go degrees that require skill in fields that actually are in demand.

I wasn't talking about ITT Tech my friend.

 

[ANYCHawk]

To me the problem with education costs are education costs. Everyone should be allowed to pursue higher education if they so choose, and it shouldn't bankrupt our younger generations when they try to better themselves. I am for free public college, but I would go fro other programs too. How about a program where if you go to school for certain types of engineering, nursing or other medical it is of little or not cost to the student. Going for degrees that are less in need would have some cost, but still be lower than the current system. Of course private colleges could continue their rates.

The problem I have with your idea is that who decides to rank the fields? I mean who decides that engineering is free and Forestry management costs you $5K

Also how does that work with changing majors? Most kids do change majors.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

I wasn't talking about ITT Tech my friend.

Who said you were?

 

[moral_victory]

The problem I have with your idea is that who decides to rank the fields? I mean who decides that engineering is free and Forestry management costs you $5K

Also how does that work with changing majors? Most kids do change majors.

I knew I should have completed the proposed legislation before posting on HROT. I still have my aides hammering out the rest of the plans. Consider the proposal an olive branch I am essentially all in for free public schools. Job demand could be the metric used for the completely subsidized majors. Surely there is a way to measure which careers are in a short fall like nursing. When the military needs to fill a career field to trainees they offer careers with bonuses. The free tuition would be considered bonuses in a way.

Changing majors will result in imprisonment, and possibly a death sentence. I am sure there is a way to make them pay if they need to. Attempted hours/hours for a bachelors switching majors would make attempted hours go over the majors hours which could indicate a change in a major. If there wasn't a change in a major then perhaps a waiver for additional hours.

 

[ANYCHawk]

I knew I should have completed the proposed legislation before posting on HROT. I still have my aides hammering out the rest of the plans. Consider the proposal an olive branch I am essentially all in for free public schools. Job demand could be the metric used for the completely subsidized majors. Surely there is a way to measure which careers are in a short fall like nursing. When the military needs to fill a career field to trainees they offer careers with bonuses. The free tuition would be considered bonuses in a way.

Changing majors will result in imprisonment, and possibly a death sentence. I am sure there is a way to make them pay if they need to. Attempted hours/hours for a bachelors switching majors would make attempted hours go over the majors hours which could indicate a change in a major. If there wasn't a change in a major then perhaps a waiver for additional hours.

Fair points. But, still got to work on the details. If you are gonna go with job demand, who decides that there is a demand Feds, some counselors? And if you make that one free would kids go there and then the demand decrease so often is demand evaluated? Who makes the call that the demand has been met so we're going to switch it out with aerospace engineers.

And the changing major point was more with the idea of what would stop a kid from saying he's an nursing major in year 1, just take a bunch of GEC requirements year 1 and 2 and then switch to the major he really wants. He just got two free years.

While your ideas work in a pie in the sky, would that be nice idea. There is no way that it could be practically/fairly pulled off.

 

[moral_victory]

While your ideas work in a pie in the sky, would that be nice idea. There is no way that it could be practically/fairly pulled off.

I seem to see this sentiment from a lot of Americans; largely conservatives.

"Well there would need to be planning, work, and procedures. We best just throw in the towel."

 

[ANYCHawk]

I seem to see this sentiment from a lot of American's; largely conservatives.

"Well there would need to be planning, work, and procedures. We best just throw in the towel."

No. It's just not practical. Look I think every high school school should be on the level of Bronx Science, but there isn't an infinite pool of money to make it happen. So it seems silly to me to spend time trying to think of ways to make it happens. Let focus on meaningful change that can actually occur.

 

[SalAunese]

We likely wouldn't be having this discussion if schools like Kaplan or Phoenix didn't exist.

 

[naturalmwa]

No. It's just not practical. Look I think every high school school should be on the level of Bronx Science, but there isn't an infinite pool of money to make it happen. So it seems silly to me to spend time trying to think of ways to make it happens. Let focus on meaningful change that can actually occur.

I wonder what that would cost?

 

[moral_victory]

No. It's just not practical. Look I think every high school school should be on the level of Bronx Science, but there isn't an infinite pool of money to make it happen. So it seems silly to me to spend time trying to think of ways to make it happens. Let focus on meaningful change that can actually occur.

The money is there. We would just have to shift the priorities of where our money goes.

 

[mstp1992]

Nope it is based on the countless people I have personally "interviewed" at Chili's, O'Charley's, Cracker Barrel, Red Lobster, Ruby Tuesdays, the schools I sub at, golf courses I have played and hotels I stay at...the findings are overwhelming.

That's the very definition of anecdotal evidence. Do you understand terms like dependent and independent variables? Operationalizing said variables in order to make them quantifiable?

 

[joelbc1]

Honestly I quit telling my students college was for everyone years ago. Bogus program that offer little or no chance at any kind of gainful employment and they are left holding the bag with epic size student loans. Honestly it should be against the law to offer a degree program in the "liberal arts"...

Tennessee.....FLASH! There is much more to a "college education" than what you term gainful employment. The value of an education cannot be meaningfully measured in dollars and cents. An education gives one's life quality and substance. Long after one retires, or thinks he has learned all there is to learn, a liberal arts education continues to give.
However, I do agree that college is not for everybody.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

That's the very definition of anecdotal evidence. Do you understand terms like dependent and independent variables? Operationalizing said variables in order to make them quantifiable?

I prefer actual live documentation as opposed to paper numbers...the only way to measure human suffering.

 

[mstp1992]

I prefer actual live documentation as opposed to paper numbers...the only way to measure human suffering.

It's still anecdotal. You've never been on an NIH study section, have you?

You can still operationalize interview data. How do you think ratings like the CDR came into acceptance?

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

Tennessee.....FLASH! There is much more to a "college education" than what you term gainful employment. The value of an education cannot be meaningfully measured in dollars and cents. An education gives one's life quality and substance. Long after one retires, or thinks he has learned all there is to learn, a liberal arts education continues to give.
However, I do agree that college is not for everybody.

Joel Bee Cee...flash..."quality" and "substance" doesn't put food on the table...nor does it afford golf vacations to Myrtle Beach...however if you live under a bridge I am sure it would be very gratifying to know you at least can recite Hamlet from memory or you can differentiate between dependent and independent variables...would set you apart from the rest of the homeless crowd.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

It's still anecdotal. You've never been on an NIH study section, have you?

No...not going to try and impress you sir...but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.

 

[ANYCHawk]

The money is there. We would just have to shift the priorities of where our money goes.

Your way too smart for this. No the money isn't there unless you get rid of social security, medicare and most of the military

 

[mstp1992]

No...not going to try and impress you sir...but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.

Then you've succeeded, in not impressing me that is.

 

[gohawks50]

My total educational bill including my masters was under 12k...my first teaching/coaching job paid me 22k...my little old teachers pension pays me 43k with yearly cola...for the rest of my life. I can work for now and make 15k...when I hit 66 I can make as much as I want if there are any jobs and I can find someone to hire me. My investment paid off just fine for me...I did exactly what I wanted to do since I was a kid...however for someone waiting tables or tending bar or cleaning out offices for a living and having 60k in student loan debt was the "quest for knowledge" really worth it after all?

Sounds like a college education was beneficial for you. Is it for everyone, probably not? Your complaint seems to be about a liberal arts education and by that do you mean a liberal arts degree? I agree a college education is ridiculously expensive these days, but I think if you were to compare the salaries of individuals with a college degree to those without one, the results would be obvious. People with a degree earn a significant amount more money, than those without a degree.

 

[naturalmwa]

Joel Bee Cee...flash..."quality" and "substance" doesn't put food on the table...nor does it afford golf vacations to Myrtle Beach...however if you live under a bridge I am sure it would be very gratifying to know you at least can recite Hamlet from memory or you can differentiate between dependent and independent variables...would set you apart from the rest of the homeless crowd.

There is probably a good reason that skill set would be unique in the homeless crowd.

I assume that you realize that what you taught in HS was a liberal arts subject. Is this thread a cry for validation?

History is important. I'm sure you positively impacted many you will never realize. Chin up coach.

 

[naturalmwa]

Your way too smart for this. No the money isn't there unless you get rid of social security, medicare and most of the military

How much does Bronx Science cost?

 

[joelbc1]

Joel Bee Cee...flash..."quality" and "substance" doesn't put food on the table...nor does it afford golf vacations to Myrtle Beach...however if you live under a bridge I am sure it would be very gratifying to know you at least can recite Hamlet from memory or you can differentiate between dependent and independent variables...would set you apart from the rest of the homeless crowd.

My "BA/history" degree served me quite well Tennessee. The skills I acquired in college, related and unrelated to my course work allowed me to do quite well in an unrelated field (healthcare) most of my adult life. I'm nicely retired, and travel extensively....and I don't golf in Carolina...but I did golf for 3 weeks last year (upon my retirement) in Scotland.
PS....I never lived under a bridge...well maybe once but only for a night.
I think the one thing a college degree shows potential employers is that one has the smarts and the gumption to select a course of study and complete it as designed. I think most folks learn the peculiarities of their workplace on the job. It ain't learned in a business class. It ain't learned in a pharmacy lab course and it ain't learned in a law school "contracts" class.
There is seldom a day that goes by where I don't appreciate something I learned in college. That's what a liberal arts degree does.....makes you a better, more well-rounded citizen.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

There is probably a good reason that skill set would be unique in the homeless crowd.

I assume that you realize that what you taught in HS was a liberal arts subject. Is this thread a cry for validation?

History is important. I'm sure you positively impacted many you will never realize. Chin up coach.

Yes you are very correct...I've had former students tell me my world history classes helped prepare them for college history classes they took. Of course that was in the day when I could teach to knowledge and not to some standardized test...but I will vent on that some other time and one another thread. Now as to the liberal arts statement. Every university in the country has a liberal arts component to its course of study. Yes it is an integral part of a student's intellectual development .I took a course in art appreciation, philosophy and world comparative religion. These courses helped broaden my educational perspective. I am sure that is why it is required for any degree program...however history, literature, art, philosophy, music. etc. are not areas I would advise any student to major in...they just aren't marketable.

 

[lucas80]

I read an interesting article in the Economist a few weeks ago about big companies that have their own universities where management is sent. There are no empirical results to suggest that sending their employees through their own program is any better than taking on an employee with a liberal arts degree. Indeed many outsiders think institutional universities produce management prone to group think. A liberal arts degree employee has a broader education, isn't afraid to question others, and isn't afraid of being wrong once in awhile.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

My "BA/history" degree served me quite well Tennessee. The skills I acquired in college, related and unrelated to my course work allowed me to do quite well in an unrelated field (healthcare) most of my adult life. I'm nicely retired, and travel extensively....and I don't golf in Carolina...but I did golf for 3 weeks last year (upon my retirement) in Scotland.
PS....I never lived under a bridge...well maybe once but only for a night.
I think the one thing a college degree shows potential employers is that one has the smarts and the gumption to select a course of study and complete it as designed. I think most folks learn the peculiarities of their workplace on the job. It ain't learned in a business class. It ain't learned in a pharmacy lab course and it ain't learned in a law school "contracts" class.
There is seldom a day that goes by where I don't appreciate something I learned in college. That's what a liberal arts degree does.....makes you a better, more well-rounded citizen.

My "BA/history" degree served me quite well Tennessee. The skills I acquired in college, related and unrelated to my course work allowed me to do quite well in an unrelated field (healthcare) most of my adult life. I'm nicely retired, and travel extensively....and I don't golf in Carolina...but I did golf for 3 weeks last year (upon my retirement) in Scotland.
PS....I never lived under a bridge...well maybe once but only for a night.
I think the one thing a college degree shows potential employers is that one has the smarts and the gumption to select a course of study and complete it as designed. I think most folks learn the peculiarities of their workplace on the job. It ain't learned in a business class. It ain't learned in a pharmacy lab course and it ain't learned in a law school "contracts" class.
There is seldom a day that goes by where I don't appreciate something I learned in college. That's what a liberal arts degree does.....makes you a better, more well-rounded citizen.

You obviously had the abilities to succeed regardless...I just don't think that path works any longer...you have to be in a specialized field today. Just curious...what was the original plan for your history degree?

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

 

[longliveCS40]

Education is about learning to use your mind. Learning how to think. Philosophy is the sort of major that exemplifies what universities should teach IMO.

I completely agree with this. However, college is not about learning these days. It's a business that offers a piece of paper which will afford you the opportunity to get a job.

10 years after you've left college, you remember next to nothing of the material you'll actually use in the workplace and 90% of the material you retained simply doesn't apply.

If college were truly about learning, that would be beneficial.

As it is, it's a place to party for a few years to get a piece of paper you need in life.

Some of the smartest people I've worked with over the years didn't go to college and some of the dumbest did. At the end of the day, it comes down to IQ.

 

[longliveCS40]

Tennessee.....FLASH! There is much more to a "college education" than what you term gainful employment. The value of an education cannot be meaningfully measured in dollars and cents. An education gives one's life quality and substance. Long after one retires, or thinks he has learned all there is to learn, a liberal arts education continues to give.
However, I do agree that college is not for everybody.

This is the biggest crock of crap I've ever read. It gives your life quality and substance? Explain...

After you retire, you're degree that you obtained 43 years ago is still providing something? Providing what?

 

[ChrisVarick]

Working in hiring and interviewing recent college graduates. You would be absolutely shocked if you had the chance to speak with them. There are so many that I think to myself if I didn't know they had graduated from college there was no way I could discern it from speaking with them. The worst is those that were suckered and buried with students loans from for-profit online universities.

I also get the chance to look over the job and pay histories of the applicants. So many of them have a sting of low paying and short term jobs. Then when you do find the rare one that you can offer a job to they end up struggling with goals, not showing up for work, and expecting quick promotions. It would blow your mind.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Natural, not sure if you have kids but most state schools are going to cost you probably 22-25 all in. That's what my sons 1st year at KU cost me. So yes, pretty close to 100 grand.

That's at the low end.

Most state schools are right around $44,000/year out of state for room/board/tuition. $34k for in state. College tuitions have skyrocketed out of control worse than health care and become unaffordable to middle class families , but Dems have ignored the problem because their liberal policies are obviously at fault and they care more about their own image and electability than they do about Middle class Americans.

And ciggy and natural sure enjoy changing their opinions to suit the thread. I distinctly remember previous threads bemoaning the poor, poor young people inundated with student loans that should be forgiven while "rich" people face yet another tax hike to cover them , Not comments about how obviously a Philisophy mAjor obviously knows it's not a prelude to a job and it's all about learning to learn, costs be damned. You guys are hilarious.

I've lurked through enough of these threads, you can't bullshit a bullshitter.

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

Working in hiring and interviewing recent college graduates. You would be absolutely shocked if you had the chance to speak with them. There are so many that I think to myself if I didn't know they had graduated from college there was no way I could discern it from speaking with them. The worst is those that were suckered and buried with students loans from for-profit online universities.

I also get the chance to look over the job and pay histories of the applicants. So many of them have a sting of low paying and short term jobs. Then when you do find the rare one that you can offer a job to they end up struggling with goals, not showing up for work, and expecting quick promotions. It would blow your mind.

Yes...in hindsight maybe these "institutions" should have been the focus of my OP. Has anyone ever wondered why a school with no football team has a massive stadium named for it?

 

[TennesseeWaltz1]

That's at the low end.

Most state schools are right around $44,000/year out of state for room/board/tuition. $34k for in state. College tuitions have skyrocketed out of control worse than health care and become unaffordable to middle class families , but Dems have ignored the problem because their liberal policies are obviously at fault and they care more about their own image and electability than they do about Middle class Americans.

And ciggy and natural sure enjoy changing their opinions to suit the thread. I distinctly remember previous threads bemoaning the poor, poor young people inundated with student loans that should be forgiven while "rich" people face yet another tax hike to cover them , Not comments about how obviously a Philisophy mAjor obviously knows it's not a prelude to a job and it's all about learning to learn, costs be damned. You guys are hilarious.

I've lurked through enough of these threads, you can't bullshit a bullshitter.

After I quit playing ball and had to pay my own way my tuition at MTSU was 224 per semester for an 18 hour load...that doesn't even get you half a semester hour today.