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Is Canada a theory, a hypothetical, or just fantasy land in your mind?
It wasn't an independent country when you were born.

Canada is a country. So I wouldn't categorize it as a theory, a hypothetical or fantasy land. Your final statement is also incorrect and irrelevant. Sense a theme?
 
The future is unmanned fighters. Military loves fighting the last war, though.

My wife was stationed at Holloman AFB 10+ years ago. At the time they had the 22, t-38 and the Germans were there with the tornado. They were also transitioning into unmanned aircraft and it was going from ACC to AETC.

They also had drone F4’s to be shot down at White Sands and for training. Seeing one of those come in for a landing with nobody in it while a couple beers deep on the golf course was pretty cool.
 
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Canada is a country. So I wouldn't categorize it as a theory, a hypothetical or fantasy land. Your final statement is also incorrect and irrelevant. Sense a theme?

The 'theme' is you're unaware of history:

Canada Act, also called Constitution Act of 1982, Canada’s constitution approved by the British Parliament on March 25, 1982, and proclaimed by Queen Elizabeth II on April 17, 1982, making Canada wholly independent. The document contains the original statute that established the Canadian Confederation in 1867 (the British North America Act), the amendments made to it by the British Parliament over the years, and new material resulting from negotiations between the federal and provincial governments between 1980 and 1982.
 
The 'theme' is you're unaware of history:

Canada Act, also called Constitution Act of 1982, Canada’s constitution approved by the British Parliament on March 25, 1982, and proclaimed by Queen Elizabeth II on April 17, 1982, making Canada wholly independent. The document contains the original statute that established the Canadian Confederation in 1867 (the British North America Act), the amendments made to it by the British Parliament over the years, and new material resulting from negotiations between the federal and provincial governments between 1980 and 1982.

Yes, and I was born after everyone of those dates, making your statement incorrect, as I indicated.

Thank you for not challenging the irrelevancy charge.
 
Yes, and I was born after everyone of those dates, making your statement incorrect, as I indicated.

My bad, there are so many geezers here I assumed you over 40.

Were you born after 1993, when the Czech and Slovakian Republics separated peacefully?

Thank you for not challenging the irrelevancy charge.

The charge stems from your ignorance of history. Your ignorance doesn't make history irrelevant, it just makes you ignorant.
 
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My bad, there are so many geezers here I assumed you over 40.

Were you born after 1993, when the Czech and Slovakian Republics separated peacefully?



The charge stems from your ignorance of history. Your ignorance doesn't make history irrelevant, it just makes you ignorant.

Before.

I can already see the Seminole97 theory now:

Presented to the Supreme Court, California can secede because Canada didn't exist until 1982! Case closed.

Stellar logic, totally relevant, nobody would mock you, just like nobody mocks you here.
 
Presented to the Supreme Court, California can secede because Canada didn't exist until 1982! Case closed.
Stellar logic, totally relevant, nobody would mock you, just like nobody mocks you here.

You're slow on the uptake, but I'm patient.
It is an example of secession.
No courts were even brought into the matter.
Canada's government was created as part of the British Empire hundreds of years ago.
Through a series of legislative acts by their elected representatives they were made a separate, independent country.
Their independence wasn't finalized until 1982.
There are other examples to draw on from history as well.

If the people of CA wanted to exercise their political rights to form a new government I'd wish them well.
I see no reason they couldn't be an independent country, unrestrained by 'red states' in the U.S. from enacting the policies they prefer.
If Liechtenstein can pull off being a country, I'm sure CA can.
 
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I don't want government to run health care ala the VA. I want the government to pay for healthcare ala Medicare

I'm afraid letting bureaucrats set even more of the prices in the medical world would not have the hoped for effect.

One of the best things accomplished in the Trump administration was the rule to force price disclosure. The reason prices have gone crazy in the medical field is because those prices are hidden to preclude competition while the consumer is usually not the one directly footing the bill.
We need prices and consumer choice to direct resources more efficiently and most importantly line with what society wants and can afford in light of everything else society wants and can afford.
 
We were supposed to have learned that with McNamara and the F-111.

Before my time but you're probably not wrong. Still, these things are more about jobs than they are about providing the right aircraft. Same reason we keep making air craft carriers.
 
I'm afraid letting bureaucrats set even more of the prices in the medical world would not have the hoped for effect.

One of the best things accomplished in the Trump administration was the rule to force price disclosure. The reason prices have gone crazy in the medical field is because those prices are hidden to preclude competition while the consumer is usually not the one directly footing the bill.
We need prices and consumer choice to direct resources more efficiently and most importantly line with what society wants and can afford in light of everything else society wants and can afford.

Our health care system is 10 times more expensive than any other health care system in the world. We pay 10 times more and have worse outcomes than just about every other industrialized so-called first world country on the planet. Your hypothetical horror stories aren't backed by the data.

I know someone who broke her wrist in the shower in France a few years back. She required a trip in the ambulance to get to the hospital. They set the bone, did a minor surgical procedure, put her in a cast, provided medication, and then sent her home. The price of her bill (because not being a citizen meant that she had to pay for her care instead of it being "free")? A whopping $317. That trip probably would have cost anywhere from $5-10k in the United States.
 
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Yeah, because for profit insurance companies do it so well. :rolleyes:

The entire workplace funded insurance (itself not a policy decision, but an unintended side effect of wage and price controls during WW2 leading employers to offer health insurance as an additional benefit (due to wage controls) and the IRS deciding to not tax that benefit) model, with government mandates on the insurance coverages available, is at the root of the terrible system.
That, combined with bureaucratic resource allocation under Medicare/Medicaid, is what has removed consumer decision making largely from the process and it fuels runaway prices.

You need the consumer in the loop to find out what is really demanded in healthcare relative to other wants and needs.

The price of her bill (because not being a citizen meant that she had to pay for her care instead of it being "free")? A whopping $317.

That's what she was billed. I do not think for a second that is what it cost.
You think the cost for the time of the employees involved in her ambulance transportation, minor surgery, and supporting all the capital involved in that exercise (from the ambulance itself to the OR and it's equipment, the imaging equipment and technicians, etc.) really just added up to $317?
 
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The entire workplace funded insurance (itself not a policy decision, but an unintended side effect of wage and price controls during WW2 leading employers to offer health insurance as an additional benefit (due to wage controls) and the IRS deciding to not tax that benefit) model, with government mandates on the insurance coverages available, is at the root of the terrible system.
That, combined with bureaucratic resource allocation under Medicare/Medicaid, is what has removed consumer decision making largely from the process and it fuels runaway prices.

You need the consumer in the loop to find out what is really demanded in healthcare relative to other wants and needs.

Again, your seemingly well thought out argument is defeated by the actual examples of health care in other countries which are both cheaper and more effective at delivering care to everyone than the one we have here in America.



That's what she was billed. I do not think for a second that is what it cost.
You think the cost for the time of the employees involved in her ambulance transportation, minor surgery, and supporting all the capital involved in that exercise (from the ambulance itself to the OR and it's equipment, the imaging equipment and technicians, etc.) really just added up to $317?

I can't say yes or no to the actual costs because I don't know how the bill broke down. But what I can say is the system they have set up allowed for it to only cost her $317. Sure, they pay a tax for that but I bet that the amount they pay in taxes for their health care system is cheaper than what the average health care plan in America costs and it doesn't come with a multi-thousand dollar deductible on top of that.
 
Put all of these dollars into space exploration and asteroid mining research/tech.


SPACEFORCE BITCHES! Just kidding, NASA plus ELON BITCHES!
 
But what I can say is the system they have set up allowed for it to only cost her $317. Sure, they pay a tax for that but I bet that the amount they pay in taxes for their health care system is cheaper than what the average health care plan in America costs and it doesn't come with a multi-thousand dollar deductible on top of that.

I don’t dispute for a second that our healthcare market is severely impaired by the model we operate under (where government makes nearly half the decisions on spending, and consumers are isolated by insurance companies from observing and reacting to prices).

But I think you’re mistaken if you think compelling Medicare prices on the entire market wouldn’t negatively affect supply in that market.

But the government can certainly reduce what we spend, just with trade offs. I’d rather be in the drivers seat making the decision on those trade offs.

Jean-Paul Ortiz, the president of the Confederation French medical unions told France Info that it would be another eight or nine years before waiting times improved.

Ortiz said one of the main reasons for the long waiting times was simply a shortage of doctors.

France cut the number of doctors in the 1990s because they said 'the less doctors, the less prescriptions, meaning more savings' as a way of cutting health costs,” he said.
 
Why doesn't CA 'figure it out', since they have an economy that dwarfs most of those western nations?

What are they waiting for?
My son has very affordable and efficient health care in California. Do you know someone there not covered?
 
My son has very affordable and efficient health care in California. Do you know someone there not covered?

Belem’s the one pining for a bureaucratic monopoly as panacea, and he lived in CA, so you should probably check with him.
 
Belem’s the one pining for a bureaucratic monopoly as panacea, and he lived in CA, so you should probably check with him.
You are the one pontificating about medical costs in California... among other things. Do you know someone there not covered?
 
I don’t know anyone in CA, so that’s going to be a ‘no’ from me, dawg.
So, why do you talk so knowingly about the medical coverage there, dawg?
I could ask you the same question you posed about California health care, but shift it to Florida. Why don’t they figure out how to cover everybody?
 
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So, why do you talk so knowingly about the medical coverage there, dawg?

Can you quote where I did?
Scroll back to where this discussion took the healthcare fork.
Belem pined for a larger role in healthcare for the government, and I asked why CA needed to wait to do so if that’s what their people want. This is why we have a 10th amendment in the Bill of Rights.
His retort was too much CA tax money goes to other states, but there is a solution for that in the Declaration of Independence.

‘Medical coverage’ per se was never part of the discussion.
 
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This is what happens when you start out to design a new hammer and your future customers require that it provide the functionality of every tool in the box,.. The finished product can do many things, but it's terribly expensive and it doesn't do any of those things very well...

Basically the history of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and a great Kesley Grammer movie.
 
Can you quote where I did?
Scroll back to where this discussion took the healthcare fork.
Belem pined for a larger role in healthcare for the government, and I asked why CA needed to wait to do so if that’s what their people want. This is why we have a 10th amendment in the Bill of Rights.
His retort was too much CA tax money goes to other states, but there is a solution for that in the Declaration of Independence.

‘Medical coverage’ per se was never part of the discussion.
Yeah, you just do you. You posted that Cali should get it right. Florida should get it right, as should all states.
 
Your post # 24...

Morrison71 said:
But universal health care is too expensive....
That's funny.
I look at boondoggles like the F-35 project and marvel that people want to put the government in charge of healthcare...

BelemNole said:
Yeah, it's not like every other western nation figured it out....
Why doesn't CA 'figure it out', since they have an economy that dwarfs most of those western nations?
What are they waiting for?

-----

Here I'm referencing the fact that CA does not offer all of its citizens government run healthcare akin to the nations Belem is referencing.
Is that not still the case?


California attempted passage of a single-payer bill as early as 1994, and the first successful passages of legislation through the California State Legislature, SB 840 or "The California Universal Healthcare Act" (authored by Sheila Kuehl), occurred in 2006 and again in 2008. Both times, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed the bill. State Senator Mark Leno has reintroduced the bill in each legislative session since.

On February 17, 2017, SB 562, which is also known as "The Healthy California Act" was introduced to the California State Senate. This bill is a $400 billion plan that was sponsored by the California Nurses Association to implement single-payer healthcare in California. Under this bill, which was co-authored by State Senators Ricardo Lara (D-Bell Gardens) and Toni Atkins (D-San Diego), Californians would have health coverage without having to pay any premiums, co-pays, or deductibles. Under this proposed bill, all California residents will be covered in the Healthy California Act SB 562 regardless of their immigration status. This bill will also include transient students that attend California institutions whom, purchased their healthcare program through the school. Services that will be covered by this bill will need to determine as medically necessary by the patient's chosen health care provider. These services will range from preventive services to emergency services, in addition to prescription drugs services. SB 562 passed in the State Senate on June 1, 2017 with a vote of 23–14. When the bill was sent to the State Assembly, it was put on hold by Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon, who expressed concern over financing. Although the bill was put on hold, there are hopes it will be revived so it can be reviewed again by both the State Senate and State Assembly. In 2019, California Governor Gavin Newsom appointed a commission to study the feasibility of adopting a single-payer system in California.
 
You don’t get it. California covers their citizens. My son had multiple situations due to an auto accident where CalPay stepped up. Does Florida cover their citizens?
You have no relevant knowledge, but continue the argument.
 
You don’t get it. California covers their citizens. My son had multiple situations due to an auto accident where CalPay stepped up. Does Florida cover their citizens?
You have no relevant knowledge, but continue the argument.

Is CalPay single payer government run healthcare like other western nations have, or something else?
Seems odd CA legislators are trying to pass a single payer system if they already have one.
Or is this not apples to apples?
Enlighten me.

Florida of course participates in Medicaid, but that is program for low income, not all citizens.
 
Is CalPay single payer government run healthcare like other western nations have, or something else?
Seems odd CA legislators are trying to pass a single payer system if they already have one.
Or is this not apples to apples?
Enlighten me.

Florida of course participates in Medicaid, but that is program for low income, not all citizens.
well this thread went off the rails really quickly.
 
I don’t dispute for a second that our healthcare market is severely impaired by the model we operate under (where government makes nearly half the decisions on spending, and consumers are isolated by insurance companies from observing and reacting to prices).

But I think you’re mistaken if you think compelling Medicare prices on the entire market wouldn’t negatively affect supply in that market.

But the government can certainly reduce what we spend, just with trade offs. I’d rather be in the drivers seat making the decision on those trade offs.

Jean-Paul Ortiz, the president of the Confederation French medical unions told France Info that it would be another eight or nine years before waiting times improved.

Ortiz said one of the main reasons for the long waiting times was simply a shortage of doctors.

France cut the number of doctors in the 1990s because they said 'the less doctors, the less prescriptions, meaning more savings' as a way of cutting health costs,” he said.

Again, you are going to have to find some actual examples about pricing to back up your speculation because there are dozens of examples that say you're wrong on that.

And we move to waiting times. Hate to break it to you, we have waiting times in the US too. Bad ones. We just call them "We are booked for the next 6 weeks so you will have to schedule your appointment for two months from now". My daughter was having seizures and we had to wait over two months to get to see a doctor for it. Someone else close to me was just diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and has to wait until April to have surgery for it. We have waiting times for everything we do and I suspect that they might be worse than in other countries, but I have no evidence for that.
 
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