Time, talent, and coaching

[perryhawk]

I started the year predicting 16-18 wins.....and although I am still hopeful and positive, if things don't change on the defensive side of this we may not get to 16. Right now, and it is only right now, I'm not convinced that we aren't quite a ways down the ladder in the B10. That said, this team is capable of finishing in the top half of the B10. Those that argue that we don't have the talent......I disagree completely.

Which brings me to the time topic. We appear to have made some progress through the first seven games. ND was the best team we have played and we played the best we have against them. That said, the defense still needs to make significant progress. So, if we can get our defense to an average B10 level by the start of the B10 then I think we have the ability to finish in the middle of the B10.

That defensive imporvement is the job of these coaches. I have no doubt that this team can and will play better defense.....I just don't know when. I hope soon, but worst case scenario it might not be until way late in the year.

Talent...we have talent. We lack experience. I remember when our football team got beat badly by Penn State and the Debbie Downers were harping on how bad our talent was and we can't win shiznit. Baloney. The talent was there, the attitude and the temprerment wasn't. When they were challenged and finally came to the realization that they had to play like they were in a dog fight, they beat the highly talented Michigan team and a pretty talented Nebraska.

This Iowa bball team doesn't lack talent...they just need to be coached up to play better defense (plus a few other things) and they need to do it pretty quickly.

 

[jasonrann]

I figured five non-con losses and if we split ISU/UNI somehow, we can still get there. That said, if the team continues to improve, they could easily win one more conference game than I was expecting. My preseason hope was 18 wins, still sticking with that.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

We have talent but it's talent at 3 positions. Unfortunately, one of the.positions we are lacking talent is the most important position in College Basketball.
On the heels of what I posted already, Fran doesn't emphasize defense and when you have a bunch of guys that aren't interested in playing defense, it becomes much more of a glaring problem.
The roots of the problem lay in Fran's lack of being able to sign any of the PGs he recruited. He thought that some of the wings we had could fill the void at the position. Now we are here.
I believe that Fran had planned on Connor being his PG from the minute he steps foot on campus. Which is fine. My only concern with Connor is that he's a defensive liability against high major D-1 PGs and I'm not sure he's quick enough to beat high major defenders off the dribble.
It's very possible that we might be in worse shape next season because Jok will be gone. It's going to be interesting, that's for sure.

 

[DanL53]

It is something that many were saying before the year started. Athleticism, talent, just had to put it together and when was the question. I already jumped the gun once, but I still don't think this season is lost due to a learning curve. Delayed, hampered? Sure. But the day our young fellows make five or ten minutes of good stretches turn into fifteen, eighteen? All this early season stuff will be a distant memory.

 

[DanL53]

We have talent but it's talent at 3 positions. Unfortunately, one of the.positions we are lacking talent is the most important position in College Basketball.
On the heels of what I posted already, Fran doesn't emphasize defense and when you have a bunch of guys that aren't interested in playing defense, it becomes much more of a glaring problem.
The roots of the problem lay in Fran's lack of being able to sign any of the PGs he recruited. He thought that some of the wings we had could fill the void at the position. Now we are here.
I believe that Fran had planned on Connor being his PG from the minute he steps foot on campus. Which is fine. My only concern with Connor is that he's a defensive liability against high major D-1 PGs and I'm not sure he's quick enough to beat high major defenders off the dribble.
It's very possible that we might be in worse shape next season because Jok will be gone. It's going to be interesting, that's for sure.

Do me a favor, because I'm really slow on the draw on this one. Show me how Fran doesn't emphasize defense. How about some stats to back that up? Thanks.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

How about the stats from the first 6 games of the season? Will that help bring your draw up to speed? I think we were around 240th in defense rankings before the ND game. Hope that helps.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Whoops. I was way off! I just checked and we are currently 325th in D-1 scoring defense.

 

[DanL53]

How about the stats from the first 6 games of the season? Will that help bring your draw up to speed? I think we were around 240th in defense rankings before the ND game. Hope that helps.

No. Kind of hard to use this teams stats as historical reference as to McCaffery's historical "lack of emphasis on defense", don't you think? What else have you got? Seriously, you just showed you know how to look up stats. Help me out here as to why McCaffery doesn't emphasize defense.

Do me a favor, explain to me if the fact that we are 3-4 at the moment is also because McCaffery doesn't emphasize winning? What else doesn't he emphasize?

Seems like, to my little brain, that anything not going well is due to McCaffery not giving an "emphasis" about it. LOL, one look at him on the sidelines and I have to disagree.

Could be it's just YOUNG talent that is the problem? Like everyone was saying before the start of the season? Back when we were going to be patient this year?

 

[DanL53]

Whoops. I was way off! I just checked and we are currently 325th in D-1 scoring defense.

You can find hats like the one I'm wearing by searching, VINTAGE COURT JESTER HATS on any search engine. What were Iowa's Defensive Efficiency ratings the last three years pal? Or were those just luck and Fran didn't emphasize defense at all?

 

[ScoutRefugee]

How about we look at Michigan State and Tom Izzo. There's no argument that MSU at 4-4, is in the same bed Iowa is in. Having to rebuild a graduated roster. But MSU is currently 129th in scoring defense, with their 4 losses. Izzo is a defensive minded coach that recruits with defense in mind and won't stand for lack of defensive effort. That's why with his 4 losses, he's 200 spots higher in scoring defense than we are.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

You can find hats like the one I'm wearing by searching, VINTAGE COURT JESTER HATS on any search engine. What were Iowa's Defensive Efficiency ratings the last three years pal? Or were those just luck and Fran didn't emphasize defense at all?

You're wearing the hat and in this conversation, it suits you better. Defense is about effort. That you want to point to 3 of Fran's 7 seasons as some proof that he emphasized defense is kind of funny.
Defense is about effort. Even a team fu of limited offensive players can play good defense if they give maximum effort on that end of the floor.

 

[DanL53]

How about we look at Michigan State and Tom Izzo. There's no argument that MSU at 4-4, is in the same bed Iowa is in. Having to rebuild a graduated roster. But MSU is currently 129th in scoring defense, with their 4 losses. Izzo is a defensive minded coach that recruits with defense in mind and won't stand for lack of defensive effort. That's why with his 4 losses, he's 200 spots higher in scoring defense than we are.

That's bull. I've heard Izzo say he'd rather recruit offense and TEACH defense. And that's a fact.

Man, Iowa is among THREE and only three Big Ten schools to be invited to the NCAA Tournament the last three seasons. Wisconsin, Michigan State, and us! God dang lucky or these complaints about our coach would likely be calls for his head!

Respectfully, I can't see one candle lit in the minds that find this season to be Fran's fault? What do you expect year after year! There are going to be some tough stretches.

 

[nu2u]

I'm probably in the minority but, except for a couple individual lapses (which Fran immediately addressed BTW), I thought the Hawks played pretty decent defense overall against Notre Dame. Not spectacular but much better than the first few games.

Beacham and Vesturia were hitting bombs with players on them. Beacham hit 4-8 3PT FGs and Vesturai hit 3-5 3PT shots and a few of those were shot clock buzzer beaters with a defender in their face. Have to give credit to ND for shooting well. Hawks were getting tighter on man defense and the refs rewarded them with fouls. 33 FTs for the Irish aye yah aye.

The biggest weakness IMO is rebounding, Colson got 6 offensive rebounds. Uhl and Wagner need to step up the intensity. Wagner's early fouls kind of killed his flow - I think you will see him come on strong as the season progresses.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

That's bull. I've heard Izzo say he'd rather recruit offense and TEACH defense. And that's a fact.

Man, Iowa is among THREE and only three Big Ten schools to be invited to the NCAA Tournament the last three seasons. Wisconsin, Michigan State, and us! God dang lucky or these complaints about our coach would likely be calls for his head!

Respectfully, I can't see one candle lit in the minds that find this season to be Fran's fault? What do you expect year after year! There are going to be some tough stretches.

Of course he wants to teach the defense. But he recruits with defense in mind. There's a difference. I didn't say he recruited great defensive players out of high school. But you have to have the pop physical tools to play defense for him to get in the door.

 

[JEDN]

I think many are underestimating the abilities of Bohannon. I rewatched the ND game and and was impressed with his 7 assists to only 1 turnover. He will continue to improve and I love his quick shot release.

 

[DanL53]

You're wearing the hat and in this conversation, it suits you better. Defense is about effort. That you want to point to 3 of Fran's 7 seasons as some proof that he emphasized defense is kind of funny.
Defense is about effort. Even a team fu of limited offensive players can play good defense if they give maximum effort on that end of the floor.

I don't think the hat suits me better in a conversation where you avoid mentioning that Iowa Defensive Efficiency rankings were:

2013/14, 77
2014/15, 30
2015/16, 33

Those aren't terrible numbers at all! And in fact we were in the low 30's in 2013/14 before the collapse. But let's ONLY point out the worst of Iowa's results and call that the norm. Fools, fools ignore facts! You do belong in a hat like mine.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

That's bull. I've heard Izzo say he'd rather recruit offense and TEACH defense. And that's a fact.

Man, Iowa is among THREE and only three Big Ten schools to be invited to the NCAA Tournament the last three seasons. Wisconsin, Michigan State, and us! God dang lucky or these complaints about our coach would likely be calls for his head!

Respectfully, I can't see one candle lit in the minds that find this season to be Fran's fault? What do you expect year after year! There are going to be some tough stretches.

I'm not ready to call for his head but I can see he doesn't coach defense as a priority. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I don't think the hat suits me better in a conversation where you avoid mentioning that Iowa Defensive Efficiency rankings were:

2013/14, 77
2014/15, 30
2015/16, 33

Those aren't terrible numbers at all! And in fact we were in the low 30's in 2013/14 before the collapse. But let's ONLY point out the worst of Iowa's results and call that the norm. Fools, fools ignore facts! You do belong in a hat like mine.

Give me all 7 seasons of Fran's defensive efficiency rankings since he took the job. Don't cherry pick.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I think many are underestimating the abilities of Bohannon. I rewatched the ND game and and was impressed with his 7 assists to only 1 turnover. He will continue to improve and I love his quick shot release.

Bohannon has tools but once teams start scouting and preparing for him, his numbers will suffer. Keep that in mind.

 

[jasonrann]

How about the stats from the first 6 games of the season? Will that help bring your draw up to speed? I think we were around 240th in defense rankings before the ND game. Hope that helps.

I understand what you're saying man, but it is WAY too early to hang your hat on stats from the first six games and expect it will be that way all season, especially with the youth of this team. Perhaps it's possible Fran is teaching and harping heavily on defense, but chemistry and execution aren't there yet. I, for one, saw a pretty significant difference in defensive effort from the Memphis game to the Notre Dame game. Three freshmen were making their first collegiate starts. If they can sustain that effort, learn and get better, I think we will be looking at drastically different results halfway through the B10 season. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[2432Hawk]

lost me at ND being the best team we've played. It was our 1st true road game, and against a quality opponent, but really all 4 of our losses have been against NCAA Tourney quality teams.... which we are not this year... unless our defense improves and we make a late run.

 

[jasonrann]

How about we look at Michigan State and Tom Izzo. There's no argument that MSU at 4-4, is in the same bed Iowa is in. Having to rebuild a graduated roster. But MSU is currently 129th in scoring defense, with their 4 losses. Izzo is a defensive minded coach that recruits with defense in mind and won't stand for lack of defensive effort. That's why with his 4 losses, he's 200 spots higher in scoring defense than we are.

Izzo is a defensive minded coach, but it's still apples and oranges man. Izzo had two 5-star recruits and two 4-star recruits come in this season. Additionally, they have Nairn back. Pretty significant difference talent wise.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I played for defensive coaches. I work with defensive coaches. I'll be seeing
That has nothing to do with the fact that he had players that did play defense over the past 3 years.

I understand what you're saying man, but it is WAY too early to hang your hat on stats from the first six games and expect it will be that way all season, especially with the youth of this team. Perhaps it's possible Fran is teaching and harping heavily on defense, but chemistry and execution aren't there yet. I, for one, saw a pretty significant difference in defensive effort from the Memphis game to the Notre Dame game. Three freshmen were making their first collegiate starts. If they can sustain that effort, learn and get better, I think we will be looking at drastically different results halfway through the B10 season. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I really don't give a rip about stats, honestly. I have tk use them in discussions here because it's the only thing that most people understand.
I form my opinions on what I see with my own 2 eyes. I see very little defensive effort in the first 6 games. I don't think anyone will argue that fact. What I didn't see was their playing time effected because of that lack of effort. I can name a lot of coaches that would have benched most of our starters for that lack of effort. Fran chose not to and that's his prerogative. But it tells me that a blatant lack of defensive effort wasnt
important enough to Fran, to take immediate issue with.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Izzo is a defensive minded coach, but it's still apples and oranges man. Izzo had two 5-star recruits and two 4-star recruits come in this season. Additionally, they have Nairn back. Pretty significant difference talent wise.

Cook is a 4* recruit and he gives no effort on the defensive end. Defense has very little to do with basketball skill. Defense is effort, intensity and a marginal level of athleticism.

 

[jasonrann]

I played for defensive coaches. I work with defensive coaches. I'll be seeing
That has nothing to do with the fact that he had players that did play defense over the past 3 years.

I really don't give a rip about stats, honestly. I have tk use them in discussions here because it's the only thing that most people understand.
I form my opinions on what I see with my own 2 eyes. I see very little defensive effort in the first 6 games. I don't think anyone will argue that fact. What I didn't see was their playing time effected because of that lack of effort. I can name a lot of coaches that would have benched most of our starters for that lack of effort. Fran chose not to and that's his prerogative. But it tells me that a blatant lack of defensive effort wasnt
important enough to Fran, to take immediate issue with.

So what were your thoughts on the defensive effort in the 7th game? Any difference in the starting lineup?

 

[jasonrann]

Cook is a 4* recruit and he gives no effort on the defensive end. Defense has very little to do with basketball skill. Defense is effort, intensity and a marginal level of athleticism.

So that is one recruit similar to Izzo's four. Ok. Defense has a lot to do with effort, intensity and athleticism to be sure. However, it has just as much to do with instincts and what you have learned, skill. I would bet most of our Freshmen were able to dog it a fair amount of the time in their high school careers, ESPECIALLY on defense. Well they can't anymore and now they're learning. Part of that learning involves the effort and intensity, but it also involves positioning and figuring out where/when they need to be in a much faster game.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

So what were your thoughts on the defensive effort in the 7th game? Any difference in the starting lineup?

I couldnt watch much of the ND game. I was at a high school game that night. I saw the last 5 mins of the first half and the first 5 minutes of the 2nd half. From the stats and what I read, it appears the effort was much better.
Having Cook out of the line up has to be a defensive plus. He doesn't give any effort.

 

[jasonrann]

I couldnt watch much of the ND game. I was at a high school game that night. I saw the last 5 mins of the first half and the first 5 minutes of the 2nd half. From the stats and what I read, it appears the effort was much better.
Having Cook out of the line up has to be a defensive plus. He doesn't give any effort.

Well, it's early, but I am going to make a couple predictions. #1, the defensive effort we will see going forward will be much more similar to the Notre Dame game than prior games. #2, if that happens, when Cook comes back, if he isn't playing defense, his ass will be on the bench. He had best be paying attention the next few weeks because if these guys hustle like they did against ND, he is going to need to step it up if he wants to be a leader on this team. I sure hope it happens.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

So that is one recruit similar to Izzo's four. Ok. Defense has a lot to do with effort, intensity and athleticism to be sure. However, it has just as much to do with instincts and what you have learned, skill. I would bet most of our Freshmen were able to dog it a fair amount of the time in their high school careers, ESPECIALLY on defense. Well they can't anymore and now they're learning. Part of that learning involves the effort and intensity, but it also involves positioning and figuring out where/when they need to be in a much faster game.

No doubt that most incoming FR have an adjustment to the intensity needed to play defense at the college level. Thats when a good defensive coach will simplify things to help a young team. This team would play much better defense if Fran played straight man and switched on every screen. Or played straight zone. The last thing I would want to do with a young team is put too many variations on them defensively. The last thing you want to do is take the aggressiveness out of them by forcing them to think too much.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Well, it's early, but I am going to make a couple predictions. #1, the defensive effort we will see going forward will be much more similar to the Notre Dame game than prior games. #2, if that happens, when Cook comes back, if he isn't playing defense, his ass will be on the bench. He had best be paying attention the next few weeks because if these guys hustle like they did against ND, he is going to need to step it up if he wants to be a leader on this team. I sure hope it happens.

I like the line up of Pemsl (5), Baer (4), Jok (3), Moss (2) and Bohannon (1). Baer gives maximum effort and Pemsl is a big body underneath. We might suffer against some of the bigger teams but we shouldn't give away games because it looks like we are letting the other teams run layup drills.

 

[jasonrann]

I like the line up of Pemsl (5), Baer (4), Jok (3), Moss (2) and Bohannon (1). Baer gives maximum effort and Pemsl is a big body underneath. We might suffer against some of the bigger teams but we shouldn't give away games because it looks like we are letting the other teams run layup drills.

I like this lineup too, I would much rather have Jok at the #3 instead of the #2. I go into cardiac arrest any time he dribbles and kills ball movement. If Cook is up to snuff when he returns, replace Baer with him and return Baer to his 6th man role.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

And I might be a bit of a dinosaur here but when I see players on the court that aren't even in the defensive stance, my head almost pops off my shoulders! I would have a sit down with those players, over the video replay and point that out. And then I'd say what one of my favorite coaches used to say, "go sit on that bench....do you see how your knees are bent when you sit on that bench? That's what your knees should look like when your in a basketball stance! Now stay on that bench until your knees won't do anything else but bend."

 

[jasonrann]

I know what you mean Scout. I never played college ball, but my high school coach would go f'in bananas if we weren't hustling and playing good defense. We pressed full court after every made FG and FT so if one person was dogging it, the whole thing broke down. Instant trip to the bench with a chorus of expletives as you go by and run until you die next practice. Of course, this was late 80's so coaches could be a little more hardcore then.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I know what you mean Scout. I never played college ball, but my high school coach would go f'in bananas if we weren't hustling and playing good defense. We pressed full court after every made FG and FT so if one person was dogging it, the whole thing broke down. Instant trip to the bench with a chorus of expletives as you go by and run until you die next practice. Of course, this was late 80's so coaches could be a little more hardcore then.

I absolutely hated Bo Ryan because he was the Badger's Coach and he was a good coach, so it meant that the Badgers were good. I use Bo Ryan as an example all the time. Bo Ryan never cursed a player when he came back to the bench, during games. If they didn't run the offense or they weren't playing good defense, he'd simply send in your replacement and he wouldn't say a word to them. I can't speak to what he'd say at practice but it was obvious that he expected his players to do it his way or they wouldn't see the court. The bench was his motivator.

 

[Vbeachawk]

lost me at ND being the best team we've played. It was our 1st true road game, and against a quality opponent, but really all 4 of our losses have been against NCAA Tourney quality teams.... which we are not this year... unless our defense improves and we make a late run.

And Virginia is/was far and away the best team the Hawks have played this year. Lets see what JBo does when he is facing better defensive and quicker pg's in the future. ND's guards, while good shooters, were not great defensively, imo.

 

[hawk-i bob]

I played for defensive coaches. I work with defensive coaches. I'll be seeing
That has nothing to do with the fact that he had players that did play defense over the past 3 years.

I really don't give a rip about stats, honestly. I have tk use them in discussions here because it's the only thing that most people understand.
I form my opinions on what I see with my own 2 eyes. I see very little defensive effort in the first 6 games. I don't think anyone will argue that fact. What I didn't see was their playing time effected because of that lack of effort. I can name a lot of coaches that would have benched most of our starters for that lack of effort. Fran chose not to and that's his prerogative. But it tells me that a blatant lack of defensive effort wasnt
important enough to Fran, to take immediate issue with.

couldn't help myself...if you don't give a rip about stats..then why did you use the year to date stat to make your point. you hijacked Perrys' thread by claming Fran doesn't emphasize defense... when DanL posted the previous years rankings....it wasn't good enough...you wanted more.

you see very little defensive effort but then you only saw a portion of the last game...no one is disagreeing with you that this team has a lot to learn defensively...but some of us just don't buy that "the blatant lack of defensive effort wasn't important enough to Fran". Obviously you do...that's OK.

I asked a relative of mine at Thanksgiving who happens to be a head coach about Iowa's defense "effort". I'll just paraphrase a little.
1) Its very true some highly touted & talented recruits come into the program with not the greatest defensive effort..which they could get away with in HS..."you don't bench them"...that's doesn't help. You make practice miserable. Having a former player on the Iowa team...he has no doubt Fran can be one tough SOB in practice on both sides.
2) Anytime...you have such a large turnover ... its takes time to get everybody on the same page..play team defense & communicate. And poor communication gives the impression of poor effort.

One example was the 3 that Beachem hit...wide open...Ellingson got lost in the zone (LaPhonso Ellis even mentioned it)...there was indeed a miss communication...Baer looked at BE like man ..what are you doing standing in the paint?

You won't get any argument...we as a team must be able to get stops...if we don't Fran just might have a stroke.

I should add "bench them" ... I assumed you meant don't play them...Fran does pull players on poor effort/dumb plays.

 

[DanL53]

Of course he wants to teach the defense. But he recruits with defense in mind. There's a difference. I didn't say he recruited great defensive players out of high school. But you have to have the pop physical tools to play defense for him to get in the door.

couldn't help myself...if you don't give a rip about stats..then why did you use the year to date stat to make your point. you hijacked Perrys' thread by claming Fran doesn't emphasize defense... when DanL posted the previous years rankings....it wasn't good enough...you wanted more.

you see very little defensive effort but then you only saw a portion of the last game...no one is disagreeing with you that this team has a lot to learn defensively...but some of us just don't buy that "the blatant lack of defensive effort wasn't important enough to Fran". Obviously you do...that's OK.

I asked a relative of mine at Thanksgiving who happens to be a head coach about Iowa's defense "effort". I'll just paraphrase a little.
1) Its very true some highly touted & talented recruits come into the program with not the greatest defensive effort..which they could get away with in HS..."you don't bench them"...that's doesn't help. You make practice miserable. Having a former player on the Iowa team...he has no doubt Fran can be one tough SOB in practice on both sides.
2) Anytime...you have such a large turnover ... its takes time to get everybody on the same page..play team defense & communicate. And poor communication gives the impression of poor effort.

One example was the 3 that Beachem hit...wide open...Ellingson got lost in the zone (LaPhonso Ellis even mentioned it)...there was indeed a miss communication...Baer looked at BE like man ..what are you doing standing in the paint?

You won't get any argument...we as a team must be able to get stops...if we don't Fran just might have a stroke.

I should add "bench them" ... I assumed you meant don't play them...Fran does pull players on poor effort/dumb plays.

Others will have to do the conversing regarding Fran's "emphasis". I took the ignore button way out after the Izzo thing.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Others will have to do the conversing regarding Fran's "emphasis". I took the ignore button way out after the Izzo thing.

If you don't think Izzo is a coach that prizes defense, that's your opinion. You don't have to get angry and pout because we disagree.

 

[hawk-i bob]

I started the year predicting 16-18 wins.....and although I am still hopeful and positive, if things don't change on the defensive side of this we may not get to 16. Right now, and it is only right now, I'm not convinced that we aren't quite a ways down the ladder in the B10. That said, this team is capable of finishing in the top half of the B10. Those that argue that we don't have the talent......I disagree completely.

Which brings me to the time topic. We appear to have made some progress through the first seven games. ND was the best team we have played and we played the best we have against them. That said, the defense still needs to make significant progress. So, if we can get our defense to an average B10 level by the start of the B10 then I think we have the ability to finish in the middle of the B10.

That defensive imporvement is the job of these coaches. I have no doubt that this team can and will play better defense.....I just don't know when. I hope soon, but worst case scenario it might not be until way late in the year.

Talent...we have talent. We lack experience. I remember when our football team got beat badly by Penn State and the Debbie Downers were harping on how bad our talent was and we can't win shiznit. Baloney. The talent was there, the attitude and the temprerment wasn't. When they were challenged and finally came to the realization that they had to play like they were in a dog fight, they beat the highly talented Michigan team and a pretty talented Nebraska.

This Iowa bball team doesn't lack talent...they just need to be coached up to play better defense (plus a few other things) and they need to do it pretty quickly.

well...FB a little different than BB...just by the nature of the sport. Although I wouldn't mind having leaders like Dez King on the BB team. But I get your point...and yes I read the post after the PennSt game...wow brutal.

..my view is simple> we did not get beat by the 4 teams because of attitude or temperament...we got beat because they played better (which makes them better than us) and way too many possessions we helped them...both ends (turnovers, rebounding & getting totally out of whack (position) on defense. Until the team limits that we are NOT talented enough to overcome...not in the B1G especially.

I also believe it takes even an experienced coach to come around...I understand MichSt has played a really brutal schedule..but I've also seen some of there other games...they damn near got beat at home by a lower level..it takes even the great Tom Izzo time to come around to his new group.

I do feel better after the ND game. First the 6 TO's were terrific. Fran didn't hesitate to change the lineup...Moss got 24 min instead of 2 the previous game...a sign that coach is coming around.

My expectations are starting 4 freshman (assuming Cook starts when he gets back)...is going to be great for the future but frustrating in the meantime.

 

[perryhawk]

How about we look at Michigan State and Tom Izzo. There's no argument that MSU at 4-4, is in the same bed Iowa is in. Having to rebuild a graduated roster. But MSU is currently 129th in scoring defense, with their 4 losses. Izzo is a defensive minded coach that recruits with defense in mind and won't stand for lack of defensive effort. That's why with his 4 losses, he's 200 spots higher in scoring defense than we are.

Scout....I'm assuming you don't think that MSU will continue to perform at their same level that they are currently....for the entire year do you?

Although Izzo has shown that his teams typically change over the course of a year....Fran has consistently improved this program over his time here. I certainly don't like that we have temporarily taken a step back, but just because things are going bad does not mean it's time to abandon ship. A couple of years ago our football team looked like the program was headed in the tank, then the next year they go 12-0 regular season. This year at the Penn St. game it looked like we might not win another game this year.....and you know the rest.

The point being, looking at the stats for an admittedly bad stretch (Fran said the defense was atrocious) does not mean that we are doomed. Is there room for concern, of course. I haven't talked to any of them (would never have the opportunity) but I am willing to bet that they are all very much bothered by the record and their performance on the court. That is why I go back to looking at it from a bigger picture...time, talent, coaching. It's all there.